Meta Jigglypuff Competitive and Metagame Discussion

[Mada90]

Any toughts on the Megaman matchup? Especially about approaching.
I recently had a tournament match against a very good Megaman main and i got wrecked.It seems to me that his pellets cover all of our approaching options,and playing this matchup defensively is just asking for free damage.
What i tried to do was mixing up my approaches with empty retreating hops and trying to find the space to go in with fairs or a pound and while it worked a few times,at least 70% of my approaches were met with pellets. Approaching on the ground is of course a horrible idea,especially since he can use the hitstun from his pellets to get a free uptilt.
All i can think of is a very situational idea,waiting out of pellets and fsmash range while shielding the side b, bait a neutral b,catching it with nair and then use that to approach.I realize this is not the ideal way yes XD
Anybody with more experience than me in this matchup has any tips?

 

[drakeirving]

I never said that ftilt was actually safe on shield, only that it has frame advantage; even that sounds like it's wrong, based on Drake's data, though I could be a bit confused there. In any case, you can usually get away with two on shield but in the event that they have good reaction time or a fast option oos like whirling fortress you still need to be careful.

Good to hear about Utilt, though have you tried testing Boost Kick? not sure of the frame data on it but since her jab still has the 7 frames of startup to deal with I'd assume it's faster oos. It might be worth checking other options, if there are any that are faster (I'd hope the aforementioned Whriling Fortress is faster than Boost Kick, but again I don't know much about the frame data on it).

Ftilt is +3 -3 (i'm dumb) and utilt is even on shield assuming they have to drop. But if they have a better option like Boost Kick that is fast and can also be jump-canceled with a fast jumpsquat, then you're going to lose see below. Bowser's jumpsquat is 8 frames so dropping shield is actually faster, but Whirling Fortress hits frame 6 anyways so it's no problem anyways. ZSS' jumpsquat is 4 frames and Boost Kick hits frame 4, so it should also hit your shield frame 1 at best.

Notably, Jiggs' jumpsquat is 6 frames, so a frame-perfect jump-canceled Rest will counter utilt on shield :D
One tool to possibly make use of in Jiggs dittos then, if you can buffer well enough.

EDIT: It looks like many common OoS JC options will not come out before your shield. Mac's upB, Mario's upB, Shoryuken, etc. A couple of aerials will hit though, like Pika's nair and Sheik's nair. Basically utilt is a very safe move on shield as long as the counter isn't to grab you. Additionally because of these timings it's entirely possible to option select a powershield into Rest.[/S]

 

[Codaption]

Any toughts on the Megaman matchup? Especially about approaching.
I recently had a tournament match against a very good Megaman main and i got wrecked.It seems to me that his pellets cover all of our approaching options,and playing this matchup defensively is just asking for free damage.
What i tried to do was mixing up my approaches with empty retreating hops and trying to find the space to go in with fairs or a pound and while it worked a few times,at least 70% of my approaches were met with pellets. Approaching on the ground is of course a horrible idea,especially since he can use the hitstun from his pellets to get a free uptilt.
All i can think of is a very situational idea,waiting out of pellets and fsmash range while shielding the side b, bait a neutral b,catching it with nair and then use that to approach.I realize this is not the ideal way yes XD
Anybody with more experience than me in this matchup has any tips?

The thing about Mega pellets is they have very low priority on them. Pound is good for breaking bigger projectiles, but since it doesn't actually move you very much it's not gonna be a big help against a barrage of lemons. Fair has a lingering hitbox which can help to block off a few of them as you come close, but it doesn't last long enough to completely cover one of his 3-shot "spurts". Nair's lingering hitbox, on the other hand, should last long enough to break them and help you reach Megaman easier. The range might present some issues, but it's still worth trying out next time you go up against a blue bomber at the very least.

Ftilt is +3 and utilt is even on shield assuming they have to drop. But if they have a better option like Boost Kick that is fast and can also be jump-canceled with a fast jumpsquat, then you're going to lose. Bowser's jumpsquat is 8 frames so dropping shield is actually faster, but Whirling Fortress hits frame 6 anyways so it's no problem anyways. ZSS' jumpsquat is 4 frames and Boost Kick hits frame 4, so it should also hit your shield frame 1 at best.

Notably, Jiggs' jumpsquat is 6 frames, so a frame-perfect jump-canceled Rest will counter utilt on shield :D
One tool to possibly make use of in Jiggs dittos then, if you can buffer well enough.

My friendlies Bowser is pretty reliant on Whirling Fortress, so that's good to note. Oh, the puff stuff too I guess At the very least, now we know that anyone with average or so oos options can't really do much to punish us. What is the minimum startup of a move that we can shield? (if I'm reading your post right, we are at least capable of shielding Boost Kick, so maybe frame 8 in that case)

Also, I'm a bit confused as to what the labeling on ftilt means. Does that mean we come out of lag three frames before them, or vice versa, or some other third thing that exists because Iunno?

 

[drakeirving]

I actually meant negative there; I keep mistaking it because I feel that a negative value should mean you have that many frames before it's even. Anyways, "-3" means we can act three frames behind them. It doesn't mean the move is always punishable, just that theoretically the opponent can do something faster than you.

Also to copy what I edited in above, it looks like (when using utilt on shield) many common OoS JC options will not come out before your shield does. Mac's upB, Mario's upB, Shoryuken, etc. A couple of aerials will hit though, like Pika's nair and Sheik's nair. Basically utilt is pretty safe on shield. Additionally because of these strict timings it's entirely possible to option select a powershield into Rest, where Rest comes out if they hit the powershield and you mostly stay in shield if they don't.

 

[Codaption]

hmmmm.... I noticed you said "anything that isn't a grab." Pressuring from behind could circumvent this, but how fast does a grab need to be to nab us after a Utilt on shield?

 

[drakeirving]

Well the important thing was that because shield comes out frame 1, using a shield after utilt will defend against everything (see below) but grabs and the mentioned JC nairs.

The poor thing about utilt is that it has 9 frames of startup, so using two utilts in a row on shield for example isn't necessarily safe because the opponent can beat you by using a fast enough option. In the case of utilt - shield they had only 7 frames to punish (you shield on the 8th frame after shieldstun ends), but with utilt - utilt they'll have 15 frames to punish (the second utilt hits on the 16th frame after the first's shieldstun ends). Utilt's startup and lack of range is what makes it not as amazing as Pikachu's dtilt, for example.

If you decide to utilt - spotdodge, they will have 11 frames to punish (since spotdodge starts frame 4), which is a bit slower than shield and won't necessarily beat some long-lasting or multihit attacks, but it will beat grabs.


EDIT: I made a chart

 

[Codaption]

say.... I tested something based on a hunch, and there's an error in your calculations. True JS stuff isn't affected by jumpsquat frames

go into training mode as bowser and set the speed to 1/4, you'll see that if you do JC whirling fortress it doesn't wait for the jumpsquat frames to end; it just goes straight into the attack animation. Same goes for Boost Kick and other up specials, and the same holds true for up smashes as well. I could've sworn that was the case, but I guess I didn't make test it on this stuff until now.

This... proooobably changes a lot of things.

 

[drakeirving]

Haha, that's absolutely right. I actually figured it was that way at first, but I was thinking about how just regular JC works and not the JC'd attacks. Basically anything that brings the jump out needs to go through the whole jumpsquat, but JC'd attacks do not (hence why JC KO Punch stays grounded,).

That being said, the chart posted doesn't change, it just affects what can fit into the punish interval ("actable"). Whirling Fortress still is pretty iffy because in order to punish you'd have to use it the first frame possible (one frame after jumpsquat), and you can't just buffer it. But yeah, jump-canceled Boost Kick, Super Jump Punch, Rising Upper, Screw Attack (maybe) should all be valid counters. Many other upBs won't work. I don't think there's any upsmash that will beat the shield (and if so wtf frame 6 upsmash?)

 

[Desu~]

(if so wtf frame 6 upsmash?)

Little Mac says Hi.

 

[drakeirving]

That's frame 10, so not quite but his smashes are still gross

 

[Desu~]

Could we actually make a speedy discussion as to why the idea of super-armored smashes was even though of?

 

[Soft Serve]

Haha, that's absolutely right. I actually figured it was that way at first, but I was thinking about how just regular JC works and not the JC'd attacks. Basically anything that brings the jump out needs to go through the whole jumpsquat, but JC'd attacks do not (hence why JC KO Punch stays grounded,).

That being said, the chart posted doesn't change, it just affects what can fit into the punish interval ("actable"). Whirling Fortress still is pretty iffy because in order to punish you'd have to use it the first frame possible (one frame after jumpsquat), and you can't just buffer it. But yeah, jump-canceled Boost Kick, Super Jump Punch, Rising Upper, Screw Attack (maybe) should all be valid counters. Many other upBs won't work. I don't think there's any upsmash that will beat the shield (and if so wtf frame 6 upsmash?)

Upb/upsmash oos first frame possible is completely expected of proper oos options from those characters. It's not really that hard. Getting the timing for last frame of shield stun is a guess but it's just practice. Bowser up b oos should hit frame 7, zss frame 5, etc etc

 

[drakeirving]

Regular upB and upsmash OoS first frame is easy because on shield drop you can buffer them so they come out first frame. Even jump-canceling into frame-perfect aerials is pretty easy because you still have your jumpsquat frames to buffer the attack. Jump-canceling those frame 6 attacks perfectly is much more difficult because you're buffering a jump to come out first frame instead (which is what you don't need to time), and then exactly one frame after that you use the move, which is the hard part. If you press both inputs at the same time your special or attack input overwrites the jump input and you shield drop instead. I don't doubt that it's doable even in the heat of battle, but I don't think it's nearly as easy or consistent as you make it out to be.

 

[Codaption]

Could we actually make a speedy discussion as to why the idea of super-armored smashes was even though of?

Because with his inherent flaws and numerous nerfs Mac could really use all he can get at this point.

 

[Funtroon]

Here's a question that I'd like to address: has anyone here ever tried linking FFUA into rest on fast falling characters? I was recently playing around in practice mode and I decided fast fall and immediately rest Captain Falcon and the training mode's combo calculator counted it as a true combo! Captain Falco was at about 36-40% and the rest ended up killing, I was practicing in Smashville. I tested this on other fast falling characters (Shiek, Link, Falco, Fox, MK, ZSS, Megaman, etc) and it seemed to be working pretty consistently.

I also tried hitting it on characters with the likes of Mario and it worked as well, albeit not as consistent as the characters I already listed above. I tested it on floaty characters (Peach, Puff, Zelda, etc) and it didn't work, not to my surprise.

So, what do you think? Do you think that this set up will help us at all with our meta? Or is FFUA is so hard to land and is hard read dependent for this rest set up to be considered solid?

Worst case scenario that this could all be in my head and the rest after the FFUA could be DIed by the opponent, but I thought I would share my findings anyways.

 

[Jiggly]

Here's a question that I'd like to address: has anyone here ever tried linking FFUA into rest on fast falling characters? I was recently playing around in practice mode and I decided fast fall and immediately rest Captain Falcon and the training mode's combo calculator counted it as a true combo! Captain Falco was at about 36-40% and the rest ended up killing, I was practicing in Smashville. I tested this on other fast falling characters (Shiek, Link, Falco, Fox, MK, ZSS, Megaman, etc) and it seemed to be working pretty consistently.

I also tried hitting it on characters with the likes of Mario and it worked as well, albeit not as consistent as the characters I already listed above. I tested it on floaty characters (Peach, Puff, Zelda, etc) and it didn't work, not to my surprise.

So, what do you think? Do you think that this set up will help us at all with our meta? Or is FFUA is so hard to land and is hard read dependent for this rest set up to be considered solid?

Worst case scenario that this could all be in my head and the rest after the FFUA could be DIed by the opponent, but I thought I would share my findings anyways.

Its not a real combo at kill percents, but it is a low percent combo that can work. At kill percents you normally need to sh before the rest.

 

[Funtroon]

Its not a real combo at kill percents, but it is a low percent combo that can work. At kill percents you normally need to sh before the rest.

Yes, it's definitely harder to hit at around the 50%, even on fast fall characters. I do find that it has uses though, especially in stages with low ceilings such as T&C and Dreamland. I had a read once where I FFUAed a Mario when he was at 32% and followed it up with a rest afterwards and it ended up killing, we were playing in T&C.

 

[Jiggly]

Just came up with an idea for a puff combo, but gonna need some help. I'm doing this on mario at 5%

utilt-dair-footstool-FFdair jab reset-ftilt for another reset-rising dair the getup-fair-rest

footstool combos for puff? it's super situational, but I could use your help!

 

[Desu~]

Yo Im actually no longer cynical about the utilt combo. It's actually a thing.

0 > rest is still a myth tho.

But I dunno if it's already been made, or if post is imcomplete and stuff, but I was looking for the potential %s on each character that the uair > rest becomes a true string.

Would help a lot if your in a situation where opponent gets an early kill out of you.

As far as it goes, this works like a charm. Also made Yoshi MU "look" feasible.

 

[Desu~]

Double post for existential question

Does anyone of you actually switched c-stick for attack?
Im trying to go into that whole perfect pivoting bandwagon.
Perfect pivot tilts, while not the best as any other perfect pivots from other characters, can still help you either get some distance, close in with a tilt, or even use it as a mean to situate yourself in a favorable position (character trying to cross-up, go for a safe grab, etc.)
Still hard for me, but seems worth the effort.

 

[drakeirving]

I have c-stick for attack but I mainly use it for uptilt alone. I haven't found a controller yet where I feel I can comfortably toss out aerials and also have good access for jabs and smashes, never mind having to set L or something to jump.

 

[Kojii]

I recently changed L to jump and my c-stick to attack. Still learning though.

 

[FunAtParties]

Does Serynder go by "Serypuff" on FG (Mii "Sleepyender" or vice versa)? If so, I just had a ditto with him an hour ago. Took a stock! He left after the first match though...

 

[Funtroon]

Any tips on the Puff/Ryu match up? I just had a session with our best Ryu in the region and I die after a dtilt into a shoruken at like, 40%. All of his attacks are extremely beefy and are not fun to trade with. His recovery is also hard to edge-gaurd because of the lingering hitboxes on his recovery moves.

All I know is that his spacing option are easy for us to get around, since the hadoken can clank with our fair and nair, making them useless. We can also duck the hadoken pretty easily.

Tips please!

 

[Kojii]

Just came up with an idea for a puff combo, but gonna need some help. I'm doing this on mario at 5%

utilt-dair-footstool-FFdair jab reset-ftilt for another reset-rising dair the getup-fair-rest

footstool combos for puff? it's super situational, but I could use your help!

after the footstool I can't get the dair in time, because I'm busy flying upwards :L

 

[TealPlatypus]

Does Serynder go by "Serypuff" on FG (Mii "Sleepyender" or vice versa)? If so, I just had a ditto with him an hour ago. Took a stock! He left after the first match though...

Very likely, considering his twitter handle is SeryPuff and his current twitter name is Sleepyender lol

https://twitter.com/SeryPuff

 

[Codaption]

Any tips on the Puff/Ryu match up? I just had a session with our best Ryu in the region and I die after a dtilt into a shoruken at like, 40%. All of his attacks are extremely beefy and are not fun to trade with. His recovery is also hard to edge-gaurd because of the lingering hitboxes on his recovery moves.

All I know is that his spacing option are easy for us to get around, since the hadoken can clank with our fair and nair, making them useless. We can also duck the hadoken pretty easily.

Tips please!

As far as offstage goes, you should be able to intercept his side special (the name of which is impossible for me to remember) with Bair because of our disjoint on it. After that, he should be toast.

 

[Jiggly]

Does Serynder go by "Serypuff" on FG (Mii "Sleepyender" or vice versa)? If so, I just had a ditto with him an hour ago. Took a stock! He left after the first match though...

That is him He's pretty good. I was only able to take 2/7 games when we dittoed haha

 

[FunAtParties]

Very likely, considering his twitter handle is SeryPuff and his current twitter name is Sleepyender lol

https://twitter.com/SeryPuff

That is him He's pretty good. I was only able to take 2/7 games when we dittoed haha

Neat, I feel like a legit Puff now, I thought I did pretty well.

 

[Desu~]

Any tips on the Puff/Ryu match up?

Tips please!

I thought you could litteraly crouch under anything that isn't a dtilt/dsmash?

 

[Karsticles]

How are the thoughts on Jigg's viability after the shield changes in the last patch?

 

[FunAtParties]

How are the thoughts on Jigg's viability after the shield changes in the last patch?

I think she's mainly seen as better, but still not viable. I feel like she'd be a good counterpick for certain characters, but can't be a character that you take throughout an entire tournament herself.

 

[Funtroon]

Anyone here took the time to record Jiggs doing the lagless ledge get up? I'd like to see how it looks like in practice for when I practice it.

 

[FunAtParties]

Anyone here took the time to record Jiggs doing the lagless ledge get up? I'd like to see how it looks like in practice for when I practice it.

I never pulled that off specifically, but I did something similar once. Dropped down off the ledge and quickly did a fair back on stage. Seemed to cancel almost immediately. Maybe worth looking into idk.

 

[Kojii]

Anyone here took the time to record Jiggs doing the lagless ledge get up? I'd like to see how it looks like in practice for when I practice it.

https://twitter.com/SpookyBox/status/663486264683859968
SpookyBox did

 

[Quarium]

Sometimes I wish we didn't have such a bad MU with Yoshi, after all, footstooling the dude with Puff is just so much easier than with a slew of other chars haha

 

[Codaption]

Sometimes I wish we didn't have such a bad MU with Yoshi, after all, footstooling the dude with Puff is just so much easier than with a slew of other chars haha

Well, it at least helps it to not be as bad

 

[Stickmanlolz]

What can Yoshi do that we can't?

 

[Karsticles]

What can Yoshi do that we can't?

Why pick Puff over Yoshi?

Yoshi has better aerial movement, better aerials in general, KOs earlier, and is heavier. Plus he has a projectile.

 

[Stickmanlolz]

Why pick Puff over Yoshi?

Yoshi has better aerial movement, better aerials in general, KOs earlier, and is heavier. Plus he has a projectile.

Because playing Yoshi is like driving a race car in a parking lot, very awkward and too fast IMO.
I may have lost to two consecutive Yoshi mains in my first Tournament, but I gave both of them a very hard time ESPECIALLY in the air.

btw:nice to see a Bowser main here