Meta Jigglypuff Competitive and Metagame Discussion

[Jiggly]

I... I can't...

What is that....

What?

It's right by her jiggly butt. So it's hard to space, but it's the 4th strongest bair in th game, so that's cool.

 

[Codaption]

Is there a list of projectiles we can avoid by ducking or clanking with Pound/Nair? I'd like to know so that I don't try and break something like Charge Shot and get clobbered for my troubles.

 

[drakeirving]

Hey Codaption, you wanna lab some stuff for me? Because if I get a bit more data I can basically find all projectiles you can cancel out.

 

[Soft Serve]

There's no way puff is bottom tier in a he where 1) her kit actually works (lol brawl puff) and 2) practical grounded movement is very limited and shield/roll heavy. Too much potential air control and weave game to be a bad character. Struggles to get through commited camping, and edge guarding is still just difficult in the game in general. (I still think if smash 4 had brawl ledges puff would be high tier).

As long as you have real rest setups, and common mus don't completely ignore stage presence/air positioning, puff will always be viable. If in some patch we randomly get things like, good throws, jab resets on weak nair/fair,etc I could see the potential for a top character. Right now, even not considering mu spread/relativity to the rest of the cast, she's clearly better than some of the characters that just hardly work (doc, the bad miis, etc), but still not amazing. Solid mid tier, but in a game where everyone's power level is relatively low that's fine

 

[Funtroon]

Is there a list of projectiles we can avoid by ducking or clanking with Pound/Nair? I'd like to know so that I don't try and break something like Charge Shot and get clobbered for my troubles.

While this is not a big list or anything, I was able to clank with Mario's fireball 5 times in a row by spacing with bair. Just something to keeping in mind when being spaced out by Mario.

 

[Jiggly]

While this is not a big list or anything, I was able to clank with Mario's fireball 5 times in a row by spacing with bair. Just something to keeping in mind when being spaced out by Mario.

Jab or Nair is a better option.

 

[Codaption]

Hey Codaption, you wanna lab some stuff for me? Because if I get a bit more data I can basically find all projectiles you can cancel out.

Hmmmm....what sort of labbing? I don't have the Wii u version (which has been less than useful in many situations), but maybe I can convince one of my friends to help me out a bit online....

 

[drakeirving]

I need to test if you can cancel out certain moves to be able to mostly confirm a hypothesis. If anyone else could help that'd be great too.
- Fox's Impact Blaster
- Lucario Aura Sphere
- Mewtwo Shadow Ball
- Crash Bomb
- Hadouken and Shakunetsu Hadouken
- Ness and Lucas PK Fire
- Yoshi's DownB stars

 

[Jiggly]

I need to test if you can cancel out certain moves to be able to mostly confirm a hypothesis. If anyone else could help that'd be great too.
- Fox's Impact Blaster
- Lucario Aura Sphere
- Mewtwo Shadow Ball
- Crash Bomb
- Hadouken and Shinkuu Hadouken
- Ness and Lucas PK Fire
- Yoshi's DownB stars

I can confirm that it beats hadoukens and aura sphere is weird, it changes depending on rage, and jigglypuff's percent.

 

[drakeirving]

Oops, I was looking at Shinkuu (FS) rather than Shakunetsu Hadouken. If you can beat both regular and Shakunetsu Hadouken then that's what I expected.

Actually, if Aura Sphere depends on Lucario's Aura (not Rage) that's pretty much what I expect too. Also, a fully-charged one probably shouldn't be able to be canceled.

 

[MisterDom]

I just saw this! You can't beat out Lucas PK fire becuase no matter what, when that move hits, it spreads into a tiny fire. You can't beat it out

 

[Jiggly]

I just saw this! You can't beat out Lucas PK fire becuase no matter what, when that move hits, it spreads into a tiny fire. You can't beat it out

I would expect the same for ness' since when you DA the projectile, it sets off the flame which will hit you.

 

[drakeirving]

Ok, so the more important part for PK Fire is that the bolt is supposed to deal 3 damage. The flame has its main hitbox that does 6 damage and a smaller one at the end of the burst that does 4, so if it just plainly hits you it deals 9 damage. Even if it still blows up at you, I'm looking to see if canceling it out deals 6, or all 9 damage. I'm not really looking to see if you can beat it entirely, just if the mechanics work the same.

In the same way I expect you not to be able to cancel Crash Bomb even if you hit it

 

[Jiggly]

Ok, so the more important part for PK Fire is that the bolt is supposed to deal 3 damage, which is . The flame has its main hitbox that does 6 damage and a smaller one at the end of the burst that does 4, so if it just plainly hits you it deals 9 damage. Even if it still blows up at you, I'm looking to see if canceling it out deals 6, or all 9 damage. I'm not really looking to see if you can beat it entirely, just if the mechanics work the same.

In the same way I expect you not to be able to cancel Crash Bomb even if you hit it.

I'm pretty sure the hitbox expands further than her hurtbox. The crash Bomb thing is like a grab, and we should be able to kill it before it latches.

 

[drakeirving]

I was working under the assumption that if Crash Bomb hits any bone it sticks to the target. If you can actually cancel it that's fine too; it's separate from what I'm trying to look for. I just need to know that if you hit it, something happens, and it doesn't just go through and latch onto a hurtbox.

 

[Aquamentii]

Hm... Can we mash rest in ness's Pk Fire? It's fast enough, and the fire just wakes you up instantly, so if the Ness tries to go for a grab or maybe another follow up they walk right into a rest... Definitely seems risky though... And take a lot of damage regardless... And it would probably only work once... But might merit some testing.

 

[PKPro]

Hm... Can we mash rest in ness's Pk Fire? It's fast enough, and the fire just wakes you up instantly, so if the Ness tries to go for a grab or maybe another follow up they walk right into a rest... Definitely seems risky though... And take a lot of damage regardless... And it would probably only work once... But might merit some testing.

I have done this plenty of times but i would always be right in front of them when they sent the pk fire so it can activate near his body and just mash down-b and get it every time i thought because he goes for a grab but no he was in his ending lag

 

[Patriot Duck]

So if Sheik is on one of the lower Battlefield platforms, Jiggylypuff can do sweetspot Fair > *Sheik slides off platform* > Ftilt lock x2 > sourspot Dash Attack lock > Dair > Rest > dead Sheik.

 

[EXOgreyfox]

iv been triying this combo out does anybody know how to set up the down air? I keep landing behind them https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc9WEke_scY

 

[Jiggly]

iv been triying this combo out does anybody know how to set up the down air? I keep landing behind them https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc9WEke_scY

hit with the side of the uair is all I can tell you. Funny you found my youtube test vid, there's a better one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8idfr9nwBOQ

 

[Kojii]

Went to my local today and pulled off a fastball dair > footstool gimp on a Samus. I hit the first 8 hits and drifted just a little bit to the side on the last, then I footstooled him. Saved the replay, but I have no idea who's WiiU I was playing on. I'll do some labbing. It's not big, but it might be useful in some situations.

 

[Soft Serve]

Went to my local today and pulled off a fastball dair > footstool gimp on a Samus. I hit the first 8 hits and drifted just a little bit to the side on the last, then I footstooled him. Saved the replay, but I have no idea who's WiiU I was playing on. I'll do some labbing. It's not big, but it might be useful in some situations.

Tools to get early stocks vs characters with bad vertical recovery is really good though. It's probably very worth optimizing

 

[MikeMan214]

competitvely I think jiggs isn't really all that great at all. Because she has very poor range on most of her attacks and not very good air mobility so plus she is the lightest in the game making her very easy to kill. Is it me or is she kinda flawed in my opinion.

 

[Codaption]

competitvely I think jiggs isn't really all that great at all. Because she has very poor range on most of her attacks and not very good air mobility so plus she is the lightest in the game making her very easy to kill. Is it me or is she kinda flawed in my opinion.

not very good air mobility

Not very good air mobility

Um, um, um.... what? We have the fourth highest airspeed in the game (two of the people above us requiring special conditions) and five midair jumps, we're by far the most mobile character in the game in the air. How is this a thing.

....Ahem. Aside from that... being light isn't a good thing, but it's not as crippling as you might think. Our light weight and floatiness drastically reduce our survivability, but they also make it very difficult to combo us- things that work on other characters may not find as much success with us, and in fact this can help us to avoid kill setups that might plague other fighters. Rest having frame 1 invincibility means that we have a surefire way to escape strings, which helps this immensely.

Range is a real issue that Puff struggles with, however, and it handicaps us in a lot of matchups where character have more than us. We're not completely helpless, though, with moves like Bair and Fair that still cover some distance (both can also be safe on shield if your spacing is absolutely on point). Dtilt also has some, but it's not really a very good move other than this so its not that useful to note.

The beautiful thing about Puff is that at a glance, she does look terrible; she possesses many traits that in other games would be objectively horrid, and would easily hold her back. However, we also have a lot going for us in this game, such as fantastic aerial mobility (cough) and potent combos that usually end with one of the deadliest moves in the game. We're definitely not Shiek, for sure, but we're certainly not the trash-tier character people might make us out to be.

 

[Kojii]

The beautiful thing about Puff is that at a glance, she does look terrible; she possesses many traits that in other games would be objectively horrid, and would easily hold her back. However, we also have a lot going for us in this game, such as fantastic aerial mobility (cough) and potent combos that usually end with one of the deadliest moves in the game. We're definitely not Shiek, for sure, but we're certainly not the trash-tier character people might make us out to be.

That was beautiful :']

 

[MikeMan214]

Um, um, um.... what? We have the fourth highest airspeed in the game (two of the people above us requiring special conditions) and five midair jumps, we're by far the most mobile character in the game in the air. How is this a thing.

....Ahem. Aside from that... being light isn't a good thing, but it's not as crippling as you might think. Our light weight and floatiness drastically reduce our survivability, but they also make it very difficult to combo us- things that work on other characters may not find as much success with us, and in fact this can help us to avoid kill setups that might plague other fighters. Rest having frame 1 invincibility means that we have a surefire way to escape strings, which helps this immensely.

Range is a real issue that Puff struggles with, however, and it handicaps us in a lot of matchups where character have more than us. We're not completely helpless, though, with moves like Bair and Fair that still cover some distance (both can also be safe on shield if your spacing is absolutely on point). Dtilt also has some, but it's not really a very good move other than this so its not that useful to note.

The beautiful thing about Puff is that at a glance, she does look terrible; she possesses many traits that in other games would be objectively horrid, and would easily hold her back. However, we also have a lot going for us in this game, such as fantastic aerial mobility (cough) and potent combos that usually end with one of the deadliest moves in the game. We're definitely not Shiek, for sure, but we're certainly not the trash-tier character people might make us out to be.

Well what I meant was the jiggs isn't very fast in the air or on the ground so yeah. I just don't really think that she is all that great.

 

[GeeHaus]

Well what I meant was the jiggs isn't very fast in the air or on the ground so yeah. I just don't really think that she is all that great.

She's among the fastest in the air with the best aerial acceleration, allowing her to change direction on a dime.

"Isn't very fast in the air" is objectively incorrect.

 

[Scootch]

I totally agree with you @ GeeHaus

 

[Aquamentii]

If her ground speed was also fourth highest or something ridiculous then she could be much better but even with one of the slowest run speeds it's still tough to catch the puff sometimes

 

[Codaption]

She's among the fastest in the air with the best aerial acceleration, allowing her to change direction on a dime.

"Isn't very fast in the air" is objectively incorrect.

Going off on this: Jigglypuff's high airspeed makes her not only flat-out the most mobile character in the air, but it also puts her generally among the most mobile characters in the game.

A lot of people hear the word "mobility" and think of a character like Sonic, who's blazing speed on the ground lets him cover distances quickly- the type of mobility I think you might be talking about, and one that Jigglypuff genuinely does struggle with. However, there are many, many different kinds of mobility in a game like this- our airspeed lets her chase opponents down in the air for followups, or conversely play a very effective game of cat-and-mouse that can very easily win the game by stalling the timer. Ryu is fast neither on the ground or in the air but can use Focus Punch to juke people out all over the place.

Looking at other games in the series also helps tremendously to illustrate this point, giving us shining examples such as Melee Luigi's ridiculous wavedash and Brawl Squirtle's plethora of shellshifting tricks and tech. My point here is that there are a lot of different ways to move around, and just because we employ a different method doesn't mean we're any less for it. Ganondorf is though

I just don't really think that she is all that great.

A fair opinion, and one I won't bother trying to sway you from. I personally put her somewhere within midtier- while it's better than a lot of players give her credit for, it's still a far cry from being "all that great."

 

[Codaption]

EDIT: Oh, whoops. not sure how this happened, somebody please delete this for me.

(or point out the delete button, I can't seem to find it anywhere for the life of me.)

 

[MikeMan214]

well guess I should work on my jiggs I just can't use her in smash 4 because of no l canceling and I get shield grabbed and I can't combo into rest that well I did see that you could do it out of shield.

 

[Jiggly]

I don't know if you guys saw the puff zero to death, but I've been pulling it off a lot recently. I keep empty hopping to get opponents to whiff. Whiff = free kill it's amazing.


Honestly since it is so good and can be used differently and the string can be varied, I might give it its own thread.

 

[Codaption]

Actually, this is something I'd like to touch upon: When is a reliable opportunity to pull off our 0-death? A Puff skeptic who's a friend of mine pointed out that Uair starts on frame 9 and isn't safe on shield, meaning it's a very questionable move to just throw out in neutral. Do we need that bait in order to land the hit safely, or is there another way?

 

[MisterDom]

Actually, this is something I'd like to touch upon: When is a reliable opportunity to pull off our 0-death? A Puff skeptic who's a friend of mine pointed out that Uair starts on frame 9 and isn't safe on shield, meaning it's a very questionable move to just throw out in neutral. Do we need that bait in order to land the hit safely, or is there another way?

The only times I can pull it off are in the air when I bait my opponent into the dair and they so happen to be at the right percent for most of the string to work (the other dair to fair to rest or fair to rest). I just get punished if I try to do upair and fall on the ground.

 

[Jiggly]

Actually, this is something I'd like to touch upon: When is a reliable opportunity to pull off our 0-death? A Puff skeptic who's a friend of mine pointed out that Uair starts on frame 9 and isn't safe on shield, meaning it's a very questionable move to just throw out in neutral. Do we need that bait in order to land the hit safely, or is there another way?

You can actually get rising fair to uair as a combo, but on some characters the fair damage makes it so utilt to dair isnt a combo, so thats a problem on lighter characters. I usually do it on a whiffed aerial from an empty hop bait.

 

[King Ching]

I know this may sound silly, but I need help against fighting Yoshi as Jigglypuff.

In two tournaments in a row I lost to the top Yoshi player in our state of Hawaii (he came in 2nd place both times so he is a GREAT Yoshi player). Here are my challenges against that match up.

1. That egg is a nightmare for Jigglypuff if Yoshi knows how to space it correctly. My opponent was very good at avoiding my attacks while running away in the air and spacing with the egg at the same time. No aerial move I know of can cancel out the egg.
2. If I am shielding against the egg, the Yoshi player will use his neutral b to lick me up and turn me into an egg. Jigs can't duck under this move or shield against it, only spot dodge but Yoshi's neutral b has very little lag.
3. Yoshi is also very floaty with great aerial moves and mobility. Most of Yoshi's aerials such as fair and bair will out reach and beat Jig's aerials. I tried to wall of pain him and he just threw out a fair spike in the middle of it which was death for me. Also I couldn't combo him because of his floatiness.

I can beat any For Glory Yoshi, but a strong tournament worthy Yoshi was tough for me. I had to get really creative (I killed him with my up tilt) in order to take stocks off of him. Any advice would be appreciated. Aloha!

 

[Jiggly]

I know this may sound silly, but I need help against fighting Yoshi as Jigglypuff.

In two tournaments in a row I lost to the top Yoshi player in our state of Hawaii (he came in 2nd place both times so he is a GREAT Yoshi player). Here are my challenges against that match up.

1. That egg is a nightmare for Jigglypuff if Yoshi knows how to space it correctly. My opponent was very good at avoiding my attacks while running away in the air and spacing with the egg at the same time. No aerial move I know of can cancel out the egg.
2. If I am shielding against the egg, the Yoshi player will use his neutral b to lick me up and turn me into an egg. Jigs can't duck under this move or shield against it, only spot dodge but Yoshi's neutral b has very little lag.
3. Yoshi is also very floaty with great aerial moves and mobility. Most of Yoshi's aerials such as fair and bair will out reach and beat Jig's aerials. I tried to wall of pain him and he just threw out a fair spike in the middle of it which was death for me. Also I couldn't combo him because of his floatiness.

I can beat any For Glory Yoshi, but a strong tournament worthy Yoshi was tough for me. I had to get really creative (I killed him with my up tilt) in order to take stocks off of him. Any advice would be appreciated. Aloha!

We here pretty much unanimously agree Yoshi is our worst MU. You can actually space him out, and he will have issues getting the kill. The way I usually fight against yoshi's is make them kill thirsty by powershielding eggs, and spacing their kill options. Sometimes they will get thirsty, and approach with nair or bair. If you can force them to do this: shield is free rest.

If you really play patient, you can force a yoshi to approach, but we have troubles approaching yoshi. So make sure he doesn't get a percent lead. It's really hard to deal with his toolkit, but with some manipulation, you can do it.

 

[Kojii]

So while fiddling around in training I found something that might be a useful sing-setup. This will only work as a mixup, it's a cross up variation.
Basically: The red line means sing and the white is just normal flying. The plan is to ledge cancel sing so you have the time to punish with rest or fsmash or whatever.
I haven't tried this against people yet, but will try at my weekly tomorrow. I recommend practising it a little before pulling it off, because it's easy to time the sing wrong so you land on stage or drop into the abyss.

 

[Codaption]

hmmm...it'd be a nice use for platforms, certainly. Anyone have any comments on how useful this is?