Meta Jigglypuff Competitive and Metagame Discussion

[MisterDom]

So while fiddling around in training I found something that might be a useful sing-setup. This will only work as a mixup, it's a cross up variation.
Basically: The red line means sing and the white is just normal flying. The plan is to ledge cancel sing so you have the time to punish with rest or fsmash or whatever.
I haven't tried this against people yet, but will try at my weekly tomorrow. I recommend practising it a little before pulling it off, because it's easy to time the sing wrong so you land on stage or drop into the abyss.

Probably the best use for a ledge cancel sing, but ledge cancel sing isn't too good usually. Your mixup idea will probably work in one way or the other, but only off the platform though in my theory. Jumping and singing, landing the ledge cancel probably won't be as great as mixup, but perhaps.

 

[Codaption]

Chances are it won't work at as early percents as drop-down ledge canceled Sing, but it seems like it covers a lot more range to compensate. The hitbox might poke onto the edge of the platform a bit, too, though on the ground it may go over the heads of shorter characters... the opponent could also duck it to avoid the move fairly easily, leaving you stuck on the ledge.

 

[Kojii]

Got 3rd at our weekly today.
I couldn't find any opportunity to pull the sing trick but I got to use a matchup specific rest against Link.
If you grab Link's bomb and rest Link, then you'll wake up before he can punish you. Helped me build some % against the 4th seed (I was seeded 5th). The tourney quite a ride, beat the guy who's nr.1 the Norwegian power rankings, but he beat me again in loser finals.
I'll experiment more with the sing setup, I think it might become useful.

 

[Jiggly]

So while fiddling around in training I found something that might be a useful sing-setup. This will only work as a mixup, it's a cross up variation.
Basically: The red line means sing and the white is just normal flying. The plan is to ledge cancel sing so you have the time to punish with rest or fsmash or whatever.
I haven't tried this against people yet, but will try at my weekly tomorrow. I recommend practising it a little before pulling it off, because it's easy to time the sing wrong so you land on stage or drop into the abyss.

Doesn't sing stop your air momentum? So you would fall straight down?

 

[Kojii]

Doesn't sing stop your air momentum? So you would fall straight down?

Sing slows your horizontal momentum until it's 0, but it's slow enough for you to drift offstage first. If you run off the platform and do it a little early, you can land on the edge of the stage, but still slide off the ledge.
One should note that sing doesn't grab the ledge until after the first hitbox has come out (or that is what it seems like on my 3ds)

 

[Jiggly]

Sing slows your horizontal momentum until it's 0, but it's slow enough for you to drift offstage first. If you run off the platform and do it a little early, you can land on the edge of the stage, but still slide off the ledge.
One should note that sing doesn't grab the ledge until after the first hitbox has come out (or that is what it seems like on my 3ds)

So you cant grab until the hitbox is out, and your momentum isnt stopped until the hitbox is out. Interesting. I'm definitely gonna be using this now on people shielding. Unpunishable if they hold shield or roll, and if they drop it they get hit. This is actually a decent option.

 

[_Magus_]

Hey guys! I'm just a friendly neighborhood Ganondorf main, don't mind me. Didn't know where else to put this.

You guys have probably discovered this, and perhaps it has been in other smash games before sm4sh, but have you ever had puff's shield break under an impermeable platform (ala luigi's mansion)? Puff actually doesn't die. Not much of a difference maker though, as she does eventually float back down from the ceiling and sits on the ground stunned like everyone else. I thought it was a cool tidbit, but again, you guys probably already knew about this.

 

[Desu~]

Something weird happened during a match against a random Wario for the past few days.

I don't quite clearly remember the details, but I was pretty sure I managed to put Wario to sleep while he was airborne.

I feel quite stupid for not saving the replay of that moment, but I'm gonna try and test it further.
From what I saw, the opponent went to a free fall state before falling asleep.
Maybe this kind of outcome is probably character specific?

 

[Jiggly]

Something weird happened during a match against a random Wario for the past few days.

I don't quite clearly remember the details, but I was pretty sure I managed to put Wario to sleep while he was airborne.

I feel quite stupid for not saving the replay of that moment, but I'm gonna try and test it further.
From what I saw, the opponent went to a free fall state before falling asleep.
Maybe this kind of outcome is probably character specific?

Woah, weird. Let us know if you find anything out.

 

[Zerp]

So there's this big balance patch today. I was pretty excited so I tested out Jigglypuff's attack values to see if there's any changes and sadly can confirm that there's absolutely no changes to her non-custom attack's damage values, which is really disappointing. I don't see any trajectory changes either, I thought Dair's trajectory and/or vacuum effect seemed a bit off, but I used the 0 to death on Mewtwo to test it, and that still works perfectly so it appears that Jigglypuff (outside of customs, didn't test those) is completely unchanged (The Vacuum effect still feels off to me, but I have no way to confirm that, and am probably just imagining things). Only move I'm uncertain about are Dair like I said before (same damage, but feels off), Rollout at full charge (ground) since I couldn't find any data on it whatsoever, did it do 14 percent before this? If it did do that before, then we probably got no buffs (in non-customs at least).

 

[Jiggly]

So there's this big balance patch today. I was pretty excited so I tested out Jigglypuff's attack values to see if there's any changes and sadly can confirm that there's absolutely no changes to her non-custom attack's damage values, which is really disappointing. I don't see any trajectory changes either, I thought Dair's trajectory and/or vacuum effect seemed a bit off, but I used the 0 to death on Mewtwo to test it, and that still works perfectly so it appears that Jigglypuff (outside of customs, didn't test those) is completely unchanged (The Vacuum effect still feels off to me, but I have no way to confirm that, and am probably just imagining things). Only move I'm uncertain about are Dair like I said before (same damage, but feels off), Rollout at full charge (ground) since I couldn't find any data on it whatsoever, did it do 14 percent before this? If it did do that before, then we probably got no buffs (in non-customs at least).

I tested fresh data between patched Wii U and unpatched 3ds, and I confirm that rollout does the same

 

[Soft Serve]

So new shield stun formula, significantly more. Approaching 64 levels of stun.

Pound should be even safer, sh air dodge nair will be safer, everything better. I don't have access to a set up, someone should go find cool new things we can do to threaten shields.

Only down side is that we can't rest as many things OoS

 

[Aquamentii]

My biggest problem when playing puff was getting shield grabbed(even with good spacing), and spacing/zoning is so important with her entire game that making spacing safer is a huge inderect buff to her.

 

[Jiggly]

So we might have a shieldbreaker combo now, will get back to you guys on if it works or not.

 

[Codaption]

Yesssssss. I knew pestering the skype chat like an annoying little gnat would get somebody on it.

I just hope it starts with something safer to use than Yoshi Dair, that thing eats shields completely now (he can kill us extremely early with that in mind, so be on your guard and don't abuse shield against him. Or anyone, really, but that shouldn't be too hard for us anyway.)

 

[Jiggly]

Yesssssss. I knew pestering the skype chat like an annoying little gnat would get somebody on it.

I just hope it starts with something safer to use than Yoshi Dair, that thing eats shields completely now (he can kill us extremely early with that in mind, so be on your guard and don't abuse shield against him. Or anyone, really, but that shouldn't be too hard for us anyway.)

You can SDI out of dair though

 

[Codaption]

You can SDI out of dair though

Considering he has the mobility to follow your sdi, you really can't. Not unless he screws up his spacing on it, and even then it does a number on your shield and tends to shield poke if it doesn't pop you outright.

At the very least, we can be grateful that the move is pretty skewed in the options it beats out. Demolishes spotdodge and shield (it's even safe on shield now, because of aforementioned shield poking), but it can't do jack to backwards rolls. The thing is also slow to come out and doesn't have too much range, so you can challenge it with practically any move you could dream up... since Fair is even slower, though, and it's what they're gonna be spacing often, it's pretty easy for them to condition you to shield.

 

[Aquamentii]

The biggest change I've noticed is the fact that spacing safely with Jiggs is much easier now. I haven't found any shield breaking combos, maybe a mixup of Jab Jab->SideB? (Or maybe use nair, idk)
Also, a side note, but my main strategy when yoshi is above me is to just move out of the way and try to Fair/Bair his landing since DownB and Downair are so lethal. I avoid those moves at all costs.

 

[drakeirving]

Yesterday I broke two shields by hitting the shield first, coming back and jabbing until they brought up shield again then Pounding immediately. Pretty nice.

Also nobody seems to know to stop holding shield while in shieldstun so until people figure that out it's good for us I guess.

 

[Codaption]

Has anyone thought of testing Usmash on shield? Thing has low cooldown like Villy/MK Fsmash, both of which were safe on shield pre-patch, so I wonder if we might get away with smacking a shield with it now. If so, that'd be two kill moves that are safe on shield now (+Bair), which would be pretty neat.

 

[Soft Serve]

Entered my first smash 4 tourney since January on Sunday. Game feels much better tbh, shields are fun now.
Broke a lot of shields, Expecially in doubles. Pound is super hype.

Got falling upair uptilt dair rest once on a falcon in doubles, got a pound weak fair rest on a zero suit (didn't kill at top platform on dreamland >.>) and got a comeback ledge trump weak nair footstool on mario (pretty sure it's not a viable thing but he was sleeping). Also almost took a set off one #2 pr marth.
Got bodied harddd by another DDD. I'm so used to PM DDD because I play that MU a bunch so it's so weird. Not used to the dumb dtilt, or fair being an overhead swing, or bair not being a kick. That MU is still hard, no idea how I'm supposed to get in on him and he doesn't need to approach because gordos. Thankfully dodged all yoshis and shieks, broke even.

This game is hard man, you guys are crazy. Not what I'm really looking for in a smash game, I like getting more off my punishes. Still pretty fun though.

 

[Codaption]

This game is hard man, you guys are crazy. Not what I'm really looking for in a smash game, I like getting more off my punishes. Still pretty fun though.

Have you thought about trying out Rivals? The parry system there might give you the "oomph!" that you're looking for.

Also, nicely done! You've already got a better track record than me, I've been trying to get into tourneys but haven't yet found any within a distance I can reasonably travel. I'm too lazy to try Anthers or anything else ^^;

 

[Soft Serve]

I don't enjoy rivals. Played it a bunch in dev builds, so how dumb characters were probably left me with a bad taste in my mouth. Also I don't like playing anyone but absa but she's not in public build yet so there's no point lol. Waiting on balance adjustments and the game to be more stable to make a final judgement though.

I'll stick to pm Practicing smash 4 is hard with only a 3ds

 

[Codaption]

Alrighty, just a suggestion.

 

[Hoejja]

Woah, weird. Let us know if you find anything out.

Someone told me last week end that somehow after Wario falls off his bike, he is considered as being grounded (i don't have any more details) even though he is in the air. This would explain that. So, character specific.

Edit : About wario being putting asleep airborne

 

[Jiggly]

Someone told me last week end that somehow after Wario falls off his bike, he is considered as being grounded (i don't have any more details) even though he is in the air. This would explain that. So, character specific.

Edit : About wario being putting asleep airborne

huh, interesting. Definitely something I need to mess around with. If you can pull it off again and give us a replay, that would be sweet...

 

[Desu~]

I'll...

Definitively need to lab that.

EDIT: This IS a thing.
Definitively worth doing on high percentage when you get yourself a grounded bike and a greedy jumper.

 

[fallenangemon0]

Had a few tidbits to ask for some opinions on:

1. Did rolls lose some invincibility, or are they not as safe as they used to be before the patch? Rolling into rest was my favorite setup because it was so safe, and you could easily remain invincible during an attack and rest as soon as it's over. That's no longer the case and pretty disheartening since spot-dodge rest is now my primary strategy but can only be used defensively. What are you all using to set up your rests now?

2. Can anyone give me advice on the Captain Falcon matchup? It's one of my absolute worst to play. Getting in with Nairs/Fairs only gets me so far when he throws out raptor boosts and falcon kicks to out trade and KO me. How are you all playing this matchup? Is baiting him off stage and gimping the only advantage Jiggly has? I feel like if I don't stay in the air, I'm susceptible to dash grabs and free damage, but he has options to cover any approach that Jiggly can hope to get in with.


Example of how I feel the matchup is doomed to go:

 

[Patriot Duck]

Had a few tidbits to ask for some opinions on:

1. Did rolls lose some invincibility, or are they not as safe as they used to be before the patch? Rolling into rest was my favorite setup because it was so safe, and you could easily remain invincible during an attack and rest as soon as it's over. That's no longer the case and pretty disheartening since spot-dodge rest is now my primary strategy but can only be used defensively. What are you all using to set up your rests now?

2. Can anyone give me advice on the Captain Falcon matchup? It's one of my absolute worst to play. Getting in with Nairs/Fairs only gets me so far when he throws out raptor boosts and falcon kicks to out trade and KO me. How are you all playing this matchup? Is baiting him off stage and gimping the only advantage Jiggly has? I feel like if I don't stay in the air, I'm susceptible to dash grabs and free damage, but he has options to cover any approach that Jiggly can hope to get in with.


Example of how I feel the matchup is doomed to go:

I believe the last two balance patches nerfed the amount of invincibility on rolls, which I'd consider good for us as rolls give Jigglypuff trouble.

Now for the Falcon match-up. Are you the Jigglypuff in that video? I would not recommend that much full hop air dodging. It's really not that good and there are better options, I think. I'd recommend approaching with full hop fair; mix it up by fading back or crossing up on his shield. Maybe you can land with nair if you have a good read.

When Falcon is recovering above stage level, I usually jump toward him to bait a reaction, and then fade back a little. Then I punish accordingly. When Falcon is below stage level, I just nair his up B until he eventually dies.

 

[fallenangemon0]

I believe the last two balance patches nerfed the amount of invincibility on rolls, which I'd consider good for us as rolls give Jigglypuff trouble.

Now for the Falcon match-up. Are you the Jigglypuff in that video? I would not recommend that much full hop air dodging. It's really not that good and there are better options, I think. I'd recommend approaching with full hop fair; mix it up by fading back or crossing up on his shield. Maybe you can land with nair if you have a good read.

When Falcon is recovering above stage level, I usually jump toward him to bait a reaction, and then fade back a little. Then I punish accordingly. When Falcon is below stage level, I just nair his up B until he eventually dies.

No, I'm not the Jiggs in this video, but my match was extremely similar to this one. Eventually I was just too afraid to do ANYTHING and eat a Raptor Boost KO for missing an option. I watched it a few time and saw that the guy had some success at least crossing up shield with Nair/Fair, but I think Falcon can still outtrade most follow ups on that unless they're as fast as a dash attack or something. Thankfully I don't air dodge even a fraction as much, but he did at least use it to take note of what Falcon was going to throw out in response to an approaching Jiggs. I mostly (ab)use Nair out of shield to approach or retreat. It just seems like baiting him to throw something out and following up on a whiff is Jigglypuff's only option to keep up the pace but it's still a very dangerous game...I really need to practice the matchup in person but I currently don't have Falcon players to practice with. I'll take some footage/notes if I can.

How are the rest of you on this matchup?

 

[Codaption]

Had a few tidbits to ask for some opinions on:

1. Did rolls lose some invincibility, or are they not as safe as they used to be before the patch? Rolling into rest was my favorite setup because it was so safe, and you could easily remain invincible during an attack and rest as soon as it's over. That's no longer the case and pretty disheartening since spot-dodge rest is now my primary strategy but can only be used defensively. What are you all using to set up your rests now?

2. Can anyone give me advice on the Captain Falcon matchup? It's one of my absolute worst to play. Getting in with Nairs/Fairs only gets me so far when he throws out raptor boosts and falcon kicks to out trade and KO me. How are you all playing this matchup? Is baiting him off stage and gimping the only advantage Jiggly has? I feel like if I don't stay in the air, I'm susceptible to dash grabs and free damage, but he has options to cover any approach that Jiggly can hope to get in with.


Example of how I feel the matchup is doomed to go:

From what I saw in that video, I'm gonna have to go with Patriot here and say that you're rolling and dodging far more than you should be. You'd almost be better off not dodging at all, really- you're leaving yourself wide open to get read, some thing that did in fact happen several times within those two matches, and the dodging into the ground only makes things worse. (That applies with rolling in to land Rest as well.. even before the slight nerf on invincibility, rolling in is a very risky maneuver and should never be used often.)

However, we do have the longest airdodge in the game and it also autocancels reliably, so my recommendation is practicing mixups with short hop airdodges. Again, it's not to be abused, but rather to be used in tandem with other options to throw your opponents off. I'd also try and learn the spacing for Jigglypuff's various aerials (I saw you had some trouble there), and to not space on shield using falling aerials unless you desperately want to be Shiek. If you can do this properly, Falcon should become much easier; the poor sap has some downright horrid options out of shield, which in tandem with his inability to wall us out means he's one of very few characters we can go aggro on with decent results.

(I also didn't see very many trades with Raptor Boost or Falcon Kick, though I did see them being used a few times. Did you mean as a mixup rather than a trade, or could you point out a specific point where you traded with one of them and lost?)

 

[fallenangemon0]

Wasn't me but my match had the same shortcomings. I couldn't get in safely, and when we did trade to moderate percents he can dash into raptor boost to perfectly counter any incoming air options for a KO. It comes out extremely fast and isn't easy to read. Falcon kick has a similar kill potential to aid his mobility. (e.g. I go in for a Bair/Fair/Nair, he dashes away just enough to dodge, then side B's). Falcon just has dramatically better ground to ground game, rarely wants/needs to go in the air, and can trump our air-to-ground game with mobile KO moves.

 

[drakeirving]

Basically everything in that video Falcon got off of shielding falling aerials and waiting for the not-even-a-read-anymore airdodges. Exactly zero approach mixups. Then when they died they started rolling all over. Let Falcon recover for free. What are you people doing where this looks even remotely like a regular Falcon match?

 

[fallenangemon0]

Hahaha, I'm going to get footage up of me vs. a good falcon soon hopefully for accurate analysis.

 

[Codaption]

Wasn't me but my match had the same shortcomings. I couldn't get in safely, and when we did trade to moderate percents he can dash into raptor boost to perfectly counter any incoming air options for a KO. It comes out extremely fast and isn't easy to read. Falcon kick has a similar kill potential to aid his mobility. (e.g. I go in for a Bair/Fair/Nair, he dashes away just enough to dodge, then side B's). Falcon just has dramatically better ground to ground game, rarely wants/needs to go in the air, and can trump our air-to-ground game with mobile KO moves.

....Just gonna..... nitpick on this.

I couldn't get in safely.

You shouldn't be the one approaching. He can't camp us with out with projectiles or wall us out with aerials, whereas we can use our mobility and our aerials to keep him out.

When he gets to our spacing range, his shield becomes our toy. You can space with any aerial barring Uair and as long as you're doing so the way each one is supposed to be used he won't be able to get a punish. His only real oos option is shield grab, and that shouldn't be nabbing us any time soon.

He can dash into raptor boost to perfectly counter any incoming air options for a KO. It comes out extremely fast and isn't easy to read. Falcon kick has a similar kill potential to aid his mobility.

Falcon Kick and Raptor Boost will tank you if they hit, but that should never be happening. Frankly, neither of these are fast moves and should be met with a shield, a dodge, or even a jump on reaction nine times out of ten. Raptor boost in particular is very easy to beat, the thing has no hitbox until he's near you and as such shouldn't be out-prioritizing a mosquito bite.

Falcon just has dramatically better ground to ground game, rarely wants/needs to go in the air, and can trump our air-to-ground game with mobile KO moves.

Falcon's coverage of our preferred spacing area (Diagonal-up to him) is awkward at the very best. His only options are Utilt, angled-up ftilt and fsmash, and the already-discussed Raptor Boost. Not one of these moves is very helpful to stop Puff from outspacing him. Meanwhile, his only fast kill options are Knee, Bair, and kiiiinda Uair and Jab 3, all of which being fairly unsafe moves and falling short of keeping us out of his face. Having "mobile" KO moves doesn't help when the only way they can really be landed is through a hard read.

EDIT: Fixed a glaring typo. Also, has anyone tested Utilt on shield? since ftilt has frame advantage on it, I'd assume that Utilt would be pretty nice since it has similar power and less endlag.

 

[Kojii]

Singtech in action

I could have gone straight for the rest, but I wasn't sure what he would do, so I went for the sing.

 

[Codaption]

ooh, nice.... does this trick also work on dreamland 64?

(also gonna restate my question about Utilt on shield, it's right up there but since it's an old post and it's underneath all that junk I figured it might go unnoticed. Utilt's duel utility as a combo starter and a cheese killer mean having it be shield-safe is yet another plus for us.)

 

[Patriot Duck]

ooh, nice.... does this trick also work on dreamland 64?

(also gonna restate my question about Utilt on shield, it's right up there but since it's an old post and it's underneath all that junk I figured it might go unnoticed. Utilt's duel utility as a combo starter and a cheese killer mean having it be shield-safe is yet another plus for us.)

Forward tilt is seriously safe on shield? I had no idea, thanks for pointing this out.

To answer your question, I looked at the shieldstun formula, (X/1.75)+2 rounded down, and it seems like both up tilt and forward tilt have 7 frames of shieldstun, so presumably up tilt is safe as well.

 

[drakeirving]

It depends on your definition of safe. If ftilt hits a shield on frame 7, you get 7 frames of shield stun and then 7 frames to drop, so they can act on frame 22. Ftilt ends frame 28, so it isn't like you're safe against anything that can hit you during that time. But if you hit ftilt on frame 10 they're acting frame 25, leaving only three frames (even if buffered perfectly) to act and if you aren't right next to them due to its range you will likely be fine. Anyone buffering a frame 3 jab might be able to hit you though.

Utilt in the meantime is "faster" (but any staling will push it down to 6 frames), hitting frame 9 and actable on frame 24, leaving basically one frame to punish. EDIT: Confirming that you can utilt ZSS on shield and shield before her frame 1 jab hits you.

 

[Codaption]

I never said that ftilt was actually safe on shield, only that it has frame advantage; even that sounds like it's wrong, based on Drake's data, though I could be a bit confused there. In any case, you can usually get away with two on shield but in the event that they have good reaction time or a fast option oos like whirling fortress you still need to be careful.

Good to hear about Utilt, though have you tried testing Boost Kick? not sure of the frame data on it but since her jab still has the 7 frames of startup to deal with I'd assume it's faster oos. It might be worth checking other options, if there are any that are faster (I'd hope the aforementioned Whriling Fortress is faster than Boost Kick, but again I don't know much about the frame data on it).