Meta Jigglypuff Competitive and Metagame Discussion

[A2ZOMG]

Just popping in to say D-smash is probably really underrated. Should be used more.

Try hitting ledge sweetspots with it. Especially against a slower Up-B like Sheik's, you can hit the 1 frame ledge vulnerability window with it to gimp people. This isn't exactly unsafe to do most of the time, granted it can be difficult to time especially depending on matchup.

 

[MisterDom]

Just popping in to say D-smash is probably really underrated. Should be used more.

Try hitting ledge sweetspots with it. Especially against a slower Up-B like Sheik's, you can hit the 1 frame ledge vulnerability window with it to gimp people. This isn't exactly unsafe to do most of the time, granted it can be difficult to time especially depending on matchup.

I know! I LOVE down smash! I usually use it for punishes when I know I can use it because of the lag and the small hitbox though. It sends them to a lower corner off the side platforms in battlefield, and gives me a chance to ledge guard if I use it and the opponent goes off the edge. I don't usually use it as an actual ledge guard, but I have and it's worked.

I think it could also bait lower skilled players to use get-up attack if we miss, but we should be able to sheild in time and then get a free rest. Theory?

 

[drakeirving]

Dsmash is only out for two frames though. Trying to use it to nail ledge vulnerability seems a bit iffy, never mind that it literally can't hit some characters while hanging and is really punishable. It's much more suitable for ledge trump follow-ups.

As for acting out of it as bait, the move is interruptible frame 49, which isn't exactly good. You're better off using any faster move since people generally don't care that you're missing the edge in particular, just that you missed a move and they're opting to ledge attack to punish it. Using utilt to bait would be a better idea since it ends in half the time, but even still you aren't really covering the option of coming back on with ledge drop aerials, which will probably beat whatever. Aerial-aerial collision on the other hand is guaranteed if both attacks connect though, so maybe you want to use bairs? Meh.

Anyways, if we're talking specifically about nice angles, dair's inner hitbox sends at 280, hence the semi-spike people sometimes get.

 

[Codaption]

Speaking of Dair, how good is fullhopping and retreating with it as a punish at the ledge? I can see it absolutely decimating regular getup and/or jump getup if timed right. It could be okay for roll getup as well, but if we go for that and they choose a different option it's difficult to punish due to us having moved away from the ledge and avoiding the landing lag with the fullhop. Idk how it'd do against ledge drop or getup attack, but since Dair puts in so much damage and sets up so well for Restt it might be worth thinking about.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Dsmash is only out for two frames though. Trying to use it to nail ledge vulnerability seems a bit iffy, never mind that it literally can't hit some characters while hanging and is really punishable. It's much more suitable for ledge trump follow-ups.

As for acting out of it as bait, the move is interruptible frame 49, which isn't exactly good. You're better off using any faster move since people generally don't care that you're missing the edge in particular, just that you missed a move and they're opting to ledge attack to punish it. Using utilt to bait would be a better idea since it ends in half the time, but even still you aren't really covering the option of coming back on with ledge drop aerials, which will probably beat whatever. Aerial-aerial collision on the other hand is guaranteed if both attacks connect though, so maybe you want to use bairs? Meh.

Anyways, if we're talking specifically about nice angles, dair's inner hitbox sends at 280, hence the semi-spike people sometimes get.

It's not so punishable if you're trying to hit a ledge sweetspot with it. How is your opponent going to kill you from this position unless it's like, Ganon running Dark Fists? The risk/reward of using D-smash to hit ledge sweetspots is generally pretty favorable. Granted, 2 frame hitbox duration is basically the bare minimum for hitting a telegraphed timing window with any consistency competitively.

Also I am pretty sure that a character's hitbox for sweetspotting the ledge is different than actually hanging on the ledge. Haven't extensively tested D-smash on everyone. At any rate, the extent to which you could be punished for attempting to D-smash a ledge sweetspot is generally by far much less than your ability to kill someone for landing it.

EDIT: Jigglypuff can hit EVERY CHARACTER IN THE GAME for holding the ledge with D-smash. You really underestimate just how low the move hits. Again, this move actually should be used more for hitting the 1 frame ledge vulnerability window. In several matchups, the timing is telegraphed enough that you can do it on reaction.

 

[CHOVI]

It's not so punishable if you're trying to hit a ledge sweetspot with it. How is your opponent going to kill you from this position unless it's like, Ganon running Dark Fists? The risk/reward of using D-smash to hit ledge sweetspots is generally pretty favorable. Granted, 2 frame hitbox duration is basically the bare minimum for hitting a telegraphed timing window with any consistency competitively.

Also I am pretty sure that a character's hitbox for sweetspotting the ledge is different than actually hanging on the ledge. Haven't extensively tested D-smash on everyone. At any rate, the extent to which you could be punished for attempting to D-smash a ledge sweetspot is generally by far much less than your ability to kill someone for landing it.

EDIT: Jigglypuff can hit EVERY CHARACTER IN THE GAME for holding the ledge with D-smash. You really underestimate just how low the move hits. Again, this move actually should be used more for hitting the 1 frame ledge vulnerability window. In several matchups, the timing is telegraphed enough that you can do it on reaction.

Is there any proof of this?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Is there any proof of this?

Just try it. I'm 100% certain that not only can you D-smash every character hanging from the ledge, Jiggs D-smash is viable for hitting ledge sweetspots during the 1 frame ledge vulnerability window.

 

[Aquamentii]

I'm testing it on every character right now... If I get one where the Dsmash misses I'll post a link to a video of it.

 

[Aquamentii]

Ok, I can now confirm that puffs Dsmash connects against every member of the cast. I did this on smashville, then walking over to an edge as every character and holding on until invincibility ran out. Cue jigg's down smash, which did hit every character on the first try.

 

[CHOVI]

Ok, I can now confirm that puffs Dsmash connects against every member of the cast. I did this on smashville, then walking over to an edge as every character and holding on until invincibility ran out. Cue jigg's down smash, which did hit every character on the first try.

But is it the same with the vulnerability frame?

 

[Aquamentii]

But is it the same with the vulnerability frame?

I have no way to test this right now, but I'd imagaine so. I don't see any vulnerability hit boxes being smaller for any reason... Perhaps on a few of the more low-hanging characters it should be looked into. Also, I didn't test with every character, but poor Charizard can get rested while hanging onto the ledge and(obviously) not invincible.

 

[CHOVI]

I have no way to test this right now, but I'd imagaine so. I don't see any vulnerability hit boxes being smaller for any reason... Perhaps on a few of the more low-hanging characters it should be looked into. Also, I didn't test with every character, but poor Charizard can get rested while hanging onto the ledge and(obviously) not invincible.

Well for example, Charizard's vulnerability hitbox must be smaller than his ledge hitbox because when hanging on the ledge, he puts his head on the stage.

 

[Aquamentii]

I'm trying to slow down to 1/4 speed in training mode and see the way zard snaps to the ledge. It all depends on when the vulnerability frame is. I personally think it's during the first frame where they're actually grabbing ledge, which would be in the animation where his head and hurt box are in rest-range. If the one frame is during the ledge snap, then any character with a huge auto snap zone (basically everyone except little Mac) would have the hitbox where they are prior to snapping, making it mostly safe for them. Because of the fact that every character can be hit with a move on the one frame, even one with crappy range, I'd say it's when they're actually on ledge, meaning that if you are a god with timing you can guarantee a rest on zard and maybe some other characters any time they hit the ledge. 20XX

 

[A2ZOMG]

But why would you go for Rest? D-smash is probably going to kill absolutely everyone that isn't named Villager if you nail a ledge sweetspot. The reason you go for D-smash is partly because your opponent isn't going to punish it very hard in the event you mess up the timing.

 

[Desu~]

Guys

dance trotting could be really helpful when Jiggs is forced to be grounded.

 

[CHOVI]

Guys

dance trotting could be really helpful when Jiggs is forced to be grounded.

Maybe, but isn't jiggs's dash dance just... Weird and kind of awful?

 

[MisterDom]

Maybe, but isn't jiggs's dash dance just... Weird and kind of awful?

It's intimidating... Sort of..


Everyone's dash dance seems pretty awful in Smash 4, so it's not a con of Jigglypuff

 

[Comet7]

tomohawking with jigglypuff is godlike

falcon's dd is good, jsyk

 

[Desu~]

Try hitting ledge sweetspots with it. Especially against a slower Up-B like Sheik's, you can hit the 1 frame ledge vulnerability window with it to gimp people. This isn't exactly unsafe to do most of the time, granted it can be difficult to time especially depending on matchup.

I believe it is more useful as a trump punish.

 

[MisterDom]

I believe it is more useful as a trump punish.

True.

But only if the opponent decides to go back to the ledge... Which isn't often.

You have better chances doing the original ledge guard. At least at getting a chance to hit it.

 

[Aquamentii]

But why would you go for Rest? D-smash is probably going to kill absolutely everyone that isn't named Villager if you nail a ledge sweetspot. The reason you go for D-smash is partly because your opponent isn't going to punish it very hard in the event you mess up the timing.

Dsmash won't send Charizard too far to recover at 50%, but rest would definitely kill. Dsmash is good against most characters but at low to mid %'s it won't send anyone except Mac far enough to die.
Rest is also the safer move./Kappa

Maybe, but isn't jiggs's dash dance just... Weird and kind of awful?

Yeah a lot of movement options for puff like tomahawking, pivoting, and dash dancing just don't work for puff because of slow speed on the ground and mediocre-at-best range. I guess it could have its uses, but they're far more limited than someone like Falcon's.

Dsmash is good as both a 1-frame vulnerability punish and a trump punish just bc of the crappy angle it sends opponents at, but chars like Marth who's upB hits above the ledge would be immune.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

D-Smash is way too slow to be used for much reliably and it doesn't even send characters very far away.

As for that video about where it hits, I don't think it hits any character in the second or third category. All they have to do is press Away or Down before their invincibility goes away and they'll be too low to get hit.

 

[CHOVI]

D-Smash is way too slow to be used for much reliably and it doesn't even send characters very far away.

As for that video about where it hits, I don't think it hits any character in the second or third category. All they have to do is press Away or Down before their invincibility goes away and they'll be too low to get hit.

But what about during the autosnap frames?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

One, if they start to snap the ledge from significantly far away, you will not hit them with D-Smash, period. Two, it's telegraphed enough to make it relatively easy to avoid it by holding Down to grab the ledge later. Three, if you have that much time on your disposal, why aren't you using any of your aerials to catch it instead to get more bang for your buck?

 

[Aquamentii]

One, if they start to snap the ledge from significantly far away, you will not hit them with D-Smash, period. Two, it's telegraphed enough to make it relatively easy to avoid it by holding Down to grab the ledge later. Three, if you have that much time on your disposal, why aren't you using any of your aerials to catch it instead to get more bang for your buck?

All good points. Bair or Dair might be a better punish on ledge regrabs, but experienced players will be able to tech those. Maybe Dtilt is a better punish if it can hit opponents not the ledge bc it's less committal/punishable? Also less telegraph simply bc it comes out faster.

 

[CHOVI]

All good points. Bair or Dair might be a better punish on ledge regrabs, but experienced players will be able to tech those. Maybe Dtilt is a better punish if it can hit opponents not the ledge bc it's less committal/punishable? Also less telegraph simply bc it comes out faster.

I don't think Dtilt hits under the ledge, does it?

 

[MisterDom]

I don't think Dtilt hits under the ledge, does it?

It doesn't. If there is a regrab, down smash is the best option. You might need to start it before the grab though. (Just slightly)

 

[Aquamentii]

Aight, good to know. So Marth/Lucina would be immune to this since their upB has a hotbox over the ledge every time... Against certain characters we'll have to settle for an aerial.

 

[MisterDom]

Aight, good to know. So Marth/Lucina would be immune to this since their upB has a hotbox over the ledge every time... Against certain characters we'll have to settle for an aerial.

Yeah. Unless they casually just jump back on the ledge. Marth/lucina also have more than that 1 frame window for a down smash because of their hitbox of their up b. It'll be a trade. And down tilt can work on a few characters if they poke their head out of something. I forgot to mention that...

 

[MisterDom]

Or maybe not. Just a theory! lol

 

[Aquamentii]

Or maybe not. Just a theory! lol

All I know is charizard is susceptible to rest. I need to see what other characters are.

 

[MisterDom]

All I know is charizard is susceptible to rest. I need to see what other characters are.

Post here once you find out!

 

[Aquamentii]

After going through every character, here are my findings:

Smashville, had characters walk and grab ledge and wait until invincibility ran out. I tested it with Jiggs twice, once by rolling to the edge and resting out of a crouch and once by walking up until Jiggs went into the teetering animation and then rested out of crouch. The following characters were hit both times, and no characters were only hit once:

Bowser Jr, Donkey Kong, Charizard, Olimar, Ness/Lucas(these two go through an animation where they slowly rise and slouch back down. They can ONLY be hit by rest when they are at the highest part of their animations. Anywhere else during the animation and it will miss. Because the highest point is close to the end of the animation, I do not see any situation where this would hit unless they literally waited on ledge for you to punish them. Down smash is still the ideal punish in this scenario)
Everyone else it missed on.

 

[MisterDom]

Cool info! I wish the results would help us more, but it is what it is!

 

[Aquamentii]

Olimar was a bit of a surprise. I don't think puff has a particularly tough time against any of these characters... Except ness/Lucas but landing it would be next to impossible.... Olimar does give puff a hard time I guess so this could help... Puff edge guards Olimar pretty well anyway.

 

[MisterDom]

Yeah, it could help, but edge guarding is easy enough as it is. It's cool to keep in mind though!

I've always joked around with my friends that smash 4 has so much more secrets and tech than Melee, but it isn't near as useful. So...

Knowledge is power!!! A little...

 

[Hoejja]

How is dsmash better than a bair in this situation ?

 

[Codaption]

Random question I'd like to know, How do ROB/Yoshi do in our less favorable matchups? I already dabble in both (and greninja to a lesser extent), so if they already cover some of these that'd be great to know.

 

[CHOVI]

Random question I'd like to know, How do ROB/Yoshi do in our less favorable matchups? I already dabble in both (and greninja to a lesser extent), so if they already cover some of these that'd be great to know.

Which are our less favorable matchups? Yoshi does decently against most of the cast so there's that.

 

[Jiggly]

Random question I'd like to know, How do ROB/Yoshi do in our less favorable matchups? I already dabble in both (and greninja to a lesser extent), so if they already cover some of these that'd be great to know.

Yoshi is always the winner of our worst MU, so that's a good pick