Meta Jigglypuff Competitive and Metagame Discussion

[Jiggly]

you can also semispike with dair I learned, just ff it and you can miss the last hit that sends them sideways. It helps a lot, especially if we can catch them during their ledge vulnerability.

 

[Codaption]

Isn't Dair already a semi-spike? Or is it a.....semi-semi-spike? Either way the trajectory is already pretty low, but new info is always useful.

 

[Soft Serve]

Any changes to puff this patch? I was never well versed in everything smUsh puff to tell if anything is different, haven't patched since pre diddy nerfs

 

[EXOgreyfox]

iv been looking she seems unchaged so far..

 

[TheReflexWonder]

She seems unchanged, as far as I can tell.

 

[Codaption]

I've heard that Pound Blitz is slightly stronger, but other than that nil.

 

[Capita]

Anyone have tips on approaching with Puff? Sometimes I have the roughest of times approaching characters, particulary the times when the opponet shields a lot. I might upload some footage when I have a good example, but sometimes when I'm playing scrubby, I'll constantly get punished for approaching with fairs and nairs.

 

[drakeirving]

Mixups mixups mixups? Your grab's purpose is like 80% to beat shields. If you don't grab, there is basically no reason for the opponent to not just sit there shielding your approach and catching you when you finally do something predictable or unsafe. Pound by itself will not break a shield either, so don't think approaching a shield with Pound is going to scare them to drop it, and it's unsafe on shield so hitting it is pointless unless you can miraculously follow up. In order to break it you need safe shield pressure first, like a well-spaced dair or bair.

And if the problem is that they shield your attack approach, you can always just approach but not attack. Approaching the same way every time just makes you predictable and you won't get anywhere. Run up and empty hop to bait a response, and then punish accordingly, because either they're going to do something or they have to keep holding shield. Meanwhile, you also have to be wary of which character you're fighting and how you should space yourself so an empty hop doesn't get you smashed in the face. Ideally you'll be as close as possible while being just out of range of whatever they pull, which is often close to their roll distance, which is also often close to their dash grab distance. The only crappy thing is that we're slow on the ground so our dash grab is iffy.

 

[Capita]

Mixups mixups mixups? Your grab's purpose is like 80% to beat shields. If you don't grab, there is basically no reason for the opponent to not just sit there shielding your approach and catching you when you finally do something predictable or unsafe. Pound by itself will not break a shield either, so don't think approaching a shield with Pound is going to scare them to drop it, and it's unsafe on shield so hitting it is pointless unless you can miraculously follow up. In order to break it you need safe shield pressure first, like a well-spaced dair or bair.

And if the problem is that they shield your attack approach, you can always just approach but not attack. Approaching the same way every time just makes you predictable and you won't get anywhere. Run up and empty hop to bait a response, and then punish accordingly, because either they're going to do something or they have to keep holding shield. Meanwhile, you also have to be wary of which character you're fighting and how you should space yourself so an empty hop doesn't get you smashed in the face. Ideally you'll be as close as possible while being just out of range of whatever they pull, which is often close to their roll distance, which is also often close to their dash grab distance. The only crappy thing is that we're slow on the ground so our dash grab is iffy.

Yeah, but how do I go up for the grab? Puff's dash is garbage and that's the main problem I have, I should've said that in my first post. I have trouble pressuring my opponet and going in for mixups.

 

[EXOgreyfox]

my two hardest match ups are diddy and rosalina any tips?

 

[Aquamentii]

Diddy locks down Jigg's spacing with his Fair being longer and Uair(maybe not so much post-patch) outranging puff. This is only increased when diddy has a banana because it effectively takes away her ability to safely space any move. all I have to say for that matchup is if the Diddy is aggressive, be very passive and maximize punishes. If he is campy, pray you get a % lead early on and make him come to you with crouch and shield. One advantage puff has is the ability to edgeguard diddy very well.
Rosalina is, in my opinion, puff's hardest MU. She creates a wall that's very hard to get in against with just spacing. You have to poke at her until Luma drops and you have more openings or she goes for something very unsafe. You can stick out some Nairs when Rosa tries to upB but she'll usually make it back to stage without much trouble. Just stay away from Luma.

 

[drakeirving]

Yeah, but how do I go up for the grab? Puff's dash is garbage and that's the main problem I have, I should've said that in my first post. I have trouble pressuring my opponet and going in for mixups.

I can't really help there. For grabs you always want to already be close so you don't have to actually run anywhere, so often it's out of shield, or punishing landing, or otherwise just a close-range mixup like empty hop to dash grab or jab to grab.

my two hardest match ups are diddy and rosalina any tips?

Watch matches, I guess? These can be matchups where you can just be shut out if you aren't careful, especially with Diddy. He just has so much crap he can do at any given time that it's often a matter of not getting overwhelmed and poking whenever you can. Catch all the bananas by jumping nair, fair or air dodge; you have no reason not to.

As for Rosa it's more like just being aware of her available options and being able to know when you're in danger or not, and avoiding those situations to be set up. Hit Luma whenever practical; I really don't agree with staying away from Luma, since safe options on him are plentiful. If she recovers low try to gimp it without much worry (nair the ledge, don't often chase down since she can get around you), and if she doesn't go low, attempt to force her to miss the ledge and punish her landing.

 

[Codaption]

Luma eats our retreating fair without being able to punish it in return. If it's safe on shield, it's safe on Luma, so feel free to poke as much as you want with that or even potentially a retreating Nair.

Pound also sends Luma flying, so....yeah.

 

[Jiggly]

So utilt to rising dair to WoP is a combo... 0 to death. I've only been able to pull it off twice so far, but it's definitely worth looking into...

 

[Codaption]

.....Oh. Oh my. That DOES sound promising. Ill try this out myself, if I can.

 

[Aquamentii]

Is puff's tomahawk grab a very good option? I've tried it a few times but only to be punished. I feel like when mixing it into spacing gameplay your opponent takes the drift in as a crappily spaced aerial and proceeds with a grab of there own (most of which beat puff's since she has to get so close and she hits the ground so slow) or another attack that just stuffs your grab.

 

[Codaption]

hmmmm....has anyone considered empty hop -> spotdodge as an option? it could help us bait an option to get more use out of tomahawk grab or even punish with a shorthopped Rest. As long as we mix it up with just a pure empty hop, or empty hop-> shield.

 

[Aquamentii]

hmmmm....has anyone considered empty hop -> spotdodge as an option? it could help us bait an option to get more use out of tomahawk grab or even punish with a shorthopped Rest. As long as we mix it up with just a pure empty hop, or empty hop-> shield.

The thing is puff just floats to the ground too slowly to get much use out of any empty hops, whereas someone like fox or falcon can do it with ease. The opponent just has no need to respect empty hops because you can't hit the ground fast enough to be a threat...

 

[Jiggly]

does tomohawk grab mean pivot grab? If so, it's useless. Puff cant run through people, she runs into them and pushes them, so you cant run behind anyone and do it. Also, her pivot grab isnt much bigger than her normal grab, so pivoting right in front of someone to grab them isn't a great choice.

 

[Desu~]

Except when you use it as a retreating pivot.

Like so.

 

[drakeirving]

Obligatory mention that pivot grab is one frame slower coming out than dash grab and only one frame faster to act out of it

 

[Macchiato]

I usually use pivot grabs with other characters but Puff's imo is worse than others so I don't use Puff's

 

[RoyNowBoyNow]

Hey all, started using Jiggs seriously the other day and realised she may possibly be the most enjoyable character to use. Rest baits are so fun and from what I'm reading here she has a ton of tricks.

My main question and concern is this; are we really so unsafe on shield? There's a ton of snarky comments saying shield beats puff and I can understand why she's low tier if that's the case. However, if this is false, then I'm kinda surprised she's not higher. She's going to be my secondary after Diddy.

 

[CHOVI]

Hey all, started using Jiggs seriously the other day and realised she may possibly be the most enjoyable character to use. Rest baits are so fun and from what I'm reading here she has a ton of tricks.

My main question and concern is this; are we really so unsafe on shield? There's a ton of snarky comments saying shield beats puff and I can understand why she's low tier if that's the case. However, if this is false, then I'm kinda surprised she's not higher. She's going to be my secondary after Diddy.

Your aerials can be safe on shield but you need great spacing.

 

[Kanzaki]

What stages should we be banning, and/or counter picking? I know this is a very broad question as it is dependent on who we are facing, but this is just for an idea.

 

[MisterDom]

What stages should we be banning, and/or counter picking? I know this is a very broad question as it is dependent on who we are facing, but this is just for an idea.

Idk. all stages have ups and downs. I like Battlefield because of the platforms and the space I have to ledge guard. Lylat can put opponents' in bad positions, FD is just FD. Don't take your opponent there if they can spam. Same goes for Smashville. Transformation stages are just bad imo because of the very low ceiling when the stage transforms. Halberd is interesting though because I just find it easier to ledge guard on that stage. Partially due to the walls and ledges on that stage. But it's a transformation stage so be careful! I'm going to say that it depends on playstyle.

 

[MisterDom]

I would ban Duck Hunt, and Dreamland if allowed at your tournament. If not, ban Castle siege or something. If your opponent is a heavy spammer, ban Smashville and FD, and take them to Battlefield if you're picking stage.

 

[Jiggly]

I would ban Duck Hunt, and Dreamland if allowed at your tournament. If not, ban Castle siege or something. If your opponent is a heavy spammer, ban Smashville and FD, and take them to Battlefield if you're picking stage.

Dreamland is one of our best stages lol.

The stages you should be banning is always Halberd, FD, and I usually go with smashville, sometime delfino if that have really good vertical kill power.

I usually get rid of smashville, because the platform going offstage can ruin a gimp, and that's no fun

 

[CHOVI]

Dreamland is one of our best stages lol.

The stages you should be banning is always Halberd, FD, and I usually go with smashville, sometime delfino if that have really good vertical kill power.

I usually get rid of smashville, because the platform going offstage can ruin a gimp, and that's no fun

The platform can also help us keep aerial strings though.

 

[MisterDom]

Dreamland is one of our best stages lol.

The stages you should be banning is always Halberd, FD, and I usually go with smashville, sometime delfino if that have really good vertical kill power.

I usually get rid of smashville, because the platform going offstage can ruin a gimp, and that's no fun

True. I just dislike the tree. lol! Also, stage spiking is easier on battlefield.

 

[drakeirving]

Delfino has the potential to be great and also be awful for several reasons. We can fly under the stage and recover below, and we can use the water if the opponent gives you an opportunity, but there are several walkoffs and some transformations have close horizontal blast zones, plus if you aren't careful about transformation timings you can get killed off the top easily. Meanwhile, we can often take pretty good advantage of walkoffs, and we can use the transformation time quite handily if we can get an upthrow close to the top. Banning it and using it kind of amounts to how much better you think you can utilize the stage's jank.

 

[Kanzaki]

When in Delfino do you need to be most cautious of the low ceiling?

Also I know we have a match up thread.. but my sparring partner mostly uses Kirby.. so any match up advice? It's quite annoying as Kirby needs to be played differently compared to other characters =/

 

[CHOVI]

When in Delfino do you need to be most cautious of the low ceiling?

Also I know we have a match up thread.. but my sparring partner mostly uses Kirby.. so any match up advice? It's quite annoying as Kirby needs to be played differently compared to other characters =/

Well kirby's slow in the air and relies on combos... so what's the problem?

 

[Kanzaki]

Well kirby's slow in the air and relies on combos... so what's the problem?

Well just wondering what I should be looking out for.. what should I be using to kill.. etc..

 

[drakeirving]

When in Delfino do you need to be most cautious of the low ceiling?

When the stage transitions from one form to another, the ceiling becomes incredibly low for a short time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rLRAFrLmT8#t=22m08s for one example?

 

[Codaption]

Generally, we want to ban stages with low ceilings- it allows us to stay alive longer, and rest is going to kill crazy early no matter how high the ceiling is.

Drake covered Delfino pretty well, but chances are people won't be too fond of it...though, it depends on the player and the matchup. In general, you want to abuse the water to bypass the endlag on Rest whenever you can, and be careful when the stage is transforming.

 

[Aquamentii]

does tomohawk grab mean pivot grab? If so, it's useless. Puff cant run through people, she runs into them and pushes them, so you cant run behind anyone and do it. Also, her pivot grab isnt much bigger than her normal grab, so pivoting right in front of someone to grab them isn't a great choice.

Pivot grabbing is useless I agree, but a tomahawk is the term for when you empty hop into something on the ground, usually a grab. Fastfallers like fox or shiek can make the best use of this because they bait out a shield with the threat of an aerial and then just go for a grab. You see more of them in Melee because of faster falling speed all around but they are still a viable option in smash 4 for most characters.

As for stage counter picks, ban the lowest ceilings you can. I don't mind Castle siege because the second transformation allows for easier wall of pain kills. You don't want to die to a rosaluma up air at 20% on delfino during a transformation(then again you shouldn't be playing as puff against rosa anyway as long as you have a secondary that has a better MU against her then puff).

 

[CHOVI]

Pivot grabbing is useless I agree, but a tomahawk is the term for when you empty hop into something on the ground, usually a grab. Fastfallers like fox or shiek can make the best use of this because they bait out a shield with the threat of an aerial and then just go for a grab. You see more of them in Melee because of faster falling speed all around but they are still a viable option in smash 4 for most characters.

As for stage counter picks, ban the lowest ceilings you can. I don't mind Castle siege because the second transformation allows for easier wall of pain kills. You don't want to die to a rosaluma up air at 20% on delfino during a transformation(then again you shouldn't be playing as puff against rosa anyway as long as you have a secondary that has a better MU against her then puff).

Why is the Rosa matchup so bad again?

 

[Adrik]

Do you guys have a list o moves that can be punished with rest after a power shield? I would be really interesting to know. If not I may do it some day over the following weeks

 

[Aquamentii]

Why is the Rosa matchup so bad again?

Jigg's light weight is abused by Rosa's absurd kill power, and she out ranges puff both on the ground and in the air with moves that are much more powerful (unless you're spacing around Bair I guess). Like I mentioned in my previous post, I have died to an Upair at 20%(23 to be exact I think) on Delfino when it transforms.