Meta Jigglypuff Competitive and Metagame Discussion

[GeeHaus]

................................

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

I managed to pull off up tilt > up tilt > dair > rest against Captain Falcon in training mode at 0%. It was a true combo and did 52% damage, but came just short of actually killing. I also managed up tilt x2 > dair > footstool. Can Puff get anything guaranteed from a footstool jump?

Well if you footstool close enough to the ground (untechable situation), I'd assume that *MAYBE* you could get a dair reset? I don't know if there's enough free frames for puff to get there in time, hence the *maybe* lol

 

[Flippant]

I managed to pull off up tilt > up tilt > dair > rest against Captain Falcon in training mode at 0%. It was a true combo and did 52% damage, but came just short of actually killing. I also managed up tilt x2 > dair > footstool. Can Puff get anything guaranteed from a footstool jump?

That's not a true combo because they can tech it, and we can't get a lot out footstool, only rest on a small number of chars

 

[Flippant]

Finally able to do the Dair reset 100% of the time, but only on ROB. Practice makes perfect

 

[Kojii]

Inb4 Flippant's discovery was Serynder's sick secret AT.
Great discovery though!

Did some testing with utilt (might have been done before)
but at 0 ~ 5% fastfallers you can
utilt x2 > Utilt, Usmash, Dair, Nair, Fair or Rest (really stict timing)

Double utilt to rest does 75% :3 Tried it on for glory as well, had to fish for the utilt for a good while though, didn't hit the true combo either, but it took the Palutena by suprise.

Utilt > Rest works on the characters that are not light (still works on G&W and M2) from 0 ~ 10%

 

[Flippant]

Did some testing with utilt (might have been done before)
but at 0 ~ 5% fastfallers you can
utilt x2 > Utilt, Usmash, Dair, Nair, Fair or Rest (really stict timing)

I actually made a post about this a while back, though I don't think I mentioned rest, never really found it useful given it won't work at kill %'s

 

[Kojii]

Finally able to do the Dair reset 100% of the time, but only on ROB. Practice makes perfect

Are you able to do the SHFF Fair > Dair reset > Rest as well? Because that's the really hard part :L

 

[Flippant]

Are you able to do the SHFF Fair > Dair reset > Rest as well? Because that's the really hard part :L

Yeah, shoulda probably said "Fair > Dair jab reset" so there wasn't any confusion

 

[Kojii]

Yeah, shoulda probably said "Fair > Dair jab reset" so there wasn't any confusion

Dayum good job!
And it's almost the same with reverse nair?

 

[Flippant]

I'll test that later, I'm at Shuffle today

 

[PowerPuffPlayer]

I'm glad there are so many Jigglypuff players! Long live the puff!

 

[Codaption]

So much activity now that we actually have a useful Jab Reset. XD

The only qualm I have with it is that we don't really seem to have many ways that can set up for a jab reset in the first place. Even sourspot Fair stops working before kill %, and I don't want to rely on a missed tech to land the Uair setup.

 

[Flippant]

found this out today the fair set up forces a tech situation unless they DI up and mash jump. So fair seems like a pretty legit set up given NO one I showed it to could tech it

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

found this out today the fair set up forces a tech situation unless they DI up and mash jump. So fair seems like a pretty legit set up given NO one I showed it to could tech it

oh yeah well they're lame. lol

 

[Flippant]

oh yeah well they're lame. lol

Top players in my area, placed top 16 at Shuffle lmao

 

[Flippant]

https://vine.co/v/eqxBTUZIwa2
Discuss.

 

[Soft Serve]

Pound is a great setup, dang. Obv if they shield it, any other pressure will shield stab if they don't retaliate with upairs oos.

What other characters are easy to force down like this, or have more vulnerable jab reset animations? Also what are the rough frame invincibilitys on techs and tech rolls. Platform Tech chase rest is still very viable? I might be playing more smash 4, having a lot of hand problems because of years of daily melee/pm grinding. hopefully I'll be able to help lab soon

 

[Flippant]

Wait a minute. Is @Softie SS|Soft?

 

[Soft Serve]

Nope. Idk if soft plays smash 4 tbh

 

[Flippant]

Ah ok, the names sounded similar, and you said you played Melee a lot, I think it was a reasonable assumption

 

[Codaption]

That's a nice setup you got there...it'd be a shame if somebody teched it.

In all serious- while I doubt it would work on a player of say, M2K's caliber, it's still worth checking into if players of decently high skill have trouble with it. After all, stage spiking is something that's tossed around a lot on the Marcina Boards...

 

[Flippant]

M2K's probably been Jab reset a lot lol, it's just a rare occasion

Nobody's perfect and this jab reset is useful to capitalize on a mistake

 

[Codaption]

M2K's probably been Jab reset a lot lol, it's just a rare occasion

Nobody's perfect and this jab reset is useful to capitalize on a mistake

To be fair, platform sliding is a guarenteed setup that a lot of characters have. Which is why I'm worried that we don't really seem to get much from it.

 

[GeeHaus]

https://vine.co/v/eqxBTUZIwa2

That Pound into drill reset can also be done in pretty much the same way with Pound Blitz (~5-15%?). Percentages too low for Rest to kill, even off the platform. I guess you can B-air for free if you're afraid that the Rest punish will eat you.

It's something.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Off of a reset, you can likely extend a string (especially with D-Air being staled by the reset) by doing D-Air -> Down-B instead of a raw Down-B. This would put them higher than the platform with more damage (D-Air's 14% is nothing to sneeze at).

I don't know if it has any practical use, but a shorthop immediate airdodge lets you stick out the first hit of D-Air for a single frame before you land.

Also of relevance, shorthop immediate airdodge -> N-Air is -12 on shield. If well-spaced or you're drifting backward, it is unshieldgrabbable, and since it takes seven frames to drop a shield normally, it's not unsafe on shield unless they have a tether grab or a -really- good OoS option.

 

[Codaption]

Can't you jump-cancel smash attacks to bypass the shield drop lag, though? Unless that's just Usmash.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Can't you jump-cancel smash attacks to bypass the shield drop lag, though? Unless that's just Usmash.

That's just U-Smash.

 

[Codaption]

That's just U-Smash.

Alright, good to know.

I already knew about SH airdodge-> Nair myself, but I had no idea it was actually good for anything. I'll keep this in mind.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's your fastest non-Rest option in the air. It can likely help you when you think you're gonna get stuffed preemptively.

 

[Codaption]

Alrighties, I'll keep that in mind. I love Nair anyway <3

 

[TheReflexWonder]

This probably has absolutely no practical use, but because D-Smash sends people at a 0-degree angle (literally--straight horizontally out), if you hit an opponent who misses his tech, it will reset at any percent. Most opponents will go too far to combo off of past very low percents (~25% before the D-Smash is likely the average threshold), but beforehand it can combo into a Dash Attack, Dash Grab, F-Air, etc.

Maybe there's a little potential in a Doubles situation; slide an opponent almost the full stage's distance at 80%, heh.

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

This probably has absolutely no practical use, but because D-Smash sends people at a 0-degree angle (literally--straight horizontally out), if you hit an opponent who misses his tech, it will reset at any percent. Most opponents will go too far to combo off of past very low percents (~25% before the D-Smash is likely the average threshold), but beforehand it can combo into a Dash Attack, Dash Grab, F-Air, etc.

Maybe there's a little potential in a Doubles situation; slide an opponent almost the full stage's distance at 80%, heh.

It *could* at slightly higher percents if you D-Smash them close enough to the ledge so that they slide towards it (without sending them past it), meanwhile being close enough to follow up with whatever.

EDIT: please check, don't take my word for it. I'm just speculating

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It *could* at slightly higher percents if you D-Smash them close enough to the ledge so that they slide towards it (without sending them past it), meanwhile being close enough to follow up with whatever.

EDIT: please check, don't take my word for it. I'm just speculating

If the distance they would normally slide is further than the ledge itself, they'll slide off and not be locked anymore.

 

[Jiggly]

Recently I played someone pulled off a fair-Dsmash reset-rest but no kill. If I did a rising dair, it prob wouldve killed.

 

[Codaption]

This probably has absolutely no practical use, but because D-Smash sends people at a 0-degree angle (literally--straight horizontally out), if you hit an opponent who misses his tech, it will reset at any percent. Most opponents will go too far to combo off of past very low percents (~25% before the D-Smash is likely the average threshold), but beforehand it can combo into a Dash Attack, Dash Grab, F-Air, etc.

Maybe there's a little potential in a Doubles situation; slide an opponent almost the full stage's distance at 80%, heh.

This is actually pretty well known, but you'd be correct in guessing it has no real use outside of doubles.

While I'm here, I'd like to share something weird that I just found out earlier today while lobbing for the Pika MU: Bair has a sweetspot! Right around the base of where the foot connects to her body, to be specific. I haven't done much testing with it, so I don't really know how much earlier it kills or even if there's a difference in damage (There probably is), but landing the sweetspot increases knockback noticeably. This might also be common knowledge, but if not it's definitely something worth noting.

 

[Flippant]

Just found this pretty interesting. If you can up tilt the opponent on the platform and the miss the tech you can jab reset with Dair, then hit them with reverse hit or sourspot Fair which put them into ledge slide and have them fall off the platform, you can Dair jab reset again, then get a Dair -> Rest.

Gold star for labbing goes to Flippant

 

[TSKHAN]

That's not a true combo because they can tech it, and we can't get a lot out footstool, only rest on a small number of chars

It's definitely a true combo. Try it yourself with these instructions
u-tilt-->u-tilt-->Full-hop-->D-air (move to the bottom left off the opponent)-->move right and rest.

It's a 12hit combo that way but i've noticed that sometimes everyone goes higher so you have to jump for the rest. I'm trying to figure out where to position myself during the d-air to force that to happen so that i can experiment with this:
U-tilt-->u-tilt-->Full-hop-->d-air-->fair-->rest

I figured the first one out a long time ago and have pulled it off for kills on top platforms in friendlies. I freaking hate positioning d-air though so i haven't been able to bring myself to try to optimize it.

 

[Flippant]

That was so long ago I forget what I thought you meant, I probably just misread it, I do that a lot . I understand what what you mean now and I think I made a post about up-tilt combos a while back, iirc I mentioned it can combo into Dair but didn't mention the Dair could lead to a rest

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Jigglypuff has the slowest normal fall and fast fall in the game, and everybody in the game (except for Link) gets a 60% increase in fall speed when they fastfall.

52 Jigglypuff 0.98 1.568 60%

This means that our fastfall catches characters in the middle of the fall speed chart if they don't fastfall. If we can bait out offstage airdodges without a fastfall, we should be able to keep up with them and punish with an aerial in their endlag.

19-21 Link 1.6 3.04 90%
19-21 R.O.B.1.6 2.56 60%
19-21 Mii Swordfighter 1.6 2.56 60%
22-23 Marth 1.58 2.528 60%
22-23 Lucina 1.58 2.528 60%
24 Lucario 1.56 2.496 60%
25 Pikachu 1.55 2.48 60%
26-30 Mewtwo 1.5 2.4 60%
26-30 Mario 1.5 2.4 60%
26-30 Dr. Mario 1.5 2.4 60%
26-30 Robin 1.5 2.4 60%
26-30 Shulk 1.5 2.4 60%
31-32 Pit 1.48 2.368 60%
31-32 Dark Pit 1.48 2.368 60%
33-34 Sonic 1.45 2.32 60%
33-34 Mii Gunner 1.45 2.32 60%

Also, I didn't realize, but D-Air isn't bad at catching the ledge snap vulnerability. Every hitbox lasts for two frames, so you have a 66% chance to catch it. Because of D-Air's very favorable knockback, very long hitbox duration, and hitboxes located underneath you (though they don't appear to be disjointed, unfortunately), this may be one of the best tools in the game for taking advantage of the ledge snap vulnerability, since a successful D-Air will likely lead into whatever you want afterward (that's a lot of damage), and you're not at any great risk if the opponent gets lucky and grabs the ledge.

Combined with N-Air, F-Air, and Forward-B, Jigglypuff may very well be the best character in the game at taking advantage of it.

 

[Codaption]

Dair -> Fair offstage would be so much fun with that. Or just a stage spike with Fair, but fancy combos are always neat.