Meta Jigglypuff Competitive and Metagame Discussion

[Codaption]

I'm just gonna think aloud a bit and ask a few questions for that whole Rest + rage idea.

I know Training mode won't work but what about the normal Smash mode if handicap is on? Like if I turn handicap on and set Puff's % to 50 and test and 100 and test. Will rage kick in if I do that? If not then I guess Fox'll be shooting two characters rather than one.

I've also seen D3 and Robin be mentioned as characters to test on, I could also test on another Puff so we have the most and least vertically resistant and I guess Robin is the middle?

And then there's the issue of DI. I'm gonna go ahead and ask what is probably a dumb question but how does DI work in this game? Is it like Brawl where you hold left/right when you're sent up and down when you're sent to the sides? I know vectoring is either completely or somewhat removed but I just want to be sure. Also since DI is a factor I'll have to see about getting my cousin to help so I'm not trying to Rest someone with one controller and DI with another at the same time.

And lastly, just gonna reconfirm that the stages I'll probably test on are Battlefield, Halberd and Kongo Jungle 64. Pretty sure BF and FD have similar ceilings so it would seem redundant. Pretty sure Halberd is the lowest ceiling (or at least the lowest legal) in the Wii U version and KJ64 is the highest ceiling (or again, highest legal) in the Wii U version.

The plan is to have 3 controllers plugged in on normal Smash mode with handicap turned on to quickly get Puff to 50% and 100% (assuming that works) and the other controllers being Fox (to blaster spam for damage on the next characters) and Puff/Robin/D3 as the victims of this Rest test. I'll have my cousin control the victim character and have him walk up to me as I Rest him so that way he's constantly holding left/right during and after the hit of Rest.

College will probably hold me back from doing this immediately but I'll get around to it sometime this month at the very least.

TL;DR Does handicap allow rage to kick in? How does DI work? The rest is me explaining stuff/making a wall of text.

Handicap should work perfectly fine, and DI does in fact work the same as it has in every game....not really sure what happened with vectoring.

I am currently developing an equation to find the relativity of rage to distance, and how rage scales into a kill percent (Puff% manipulated by weight = death%). I will not calculate the variants of DI, only Maximum DI. I will also include three kinds of percent: with freshness bonus, without freshness bonus, and totally stale. I will not take every character into consideration, which is why I'm developing the equation. It will allow you to insert said characters weight and it will come up with their KO percent. I will only test 5 characters, each 1/5 apart on the weight chart.

That's absolutely perfect. I would expect nothing less than maximum DI within the testing, and 5 characters acting as "checkpoints" is fantastic. Thank you!

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

I have looked at every single Weight Listing Chart for Sm4sh, and all of them say that Dedede is 119 and Bowser is 128. But this doesn't make sense, because Bowser dies at a lower percent (64% with 0% rage and Freshness Boost) than Dedede (who I tested at these exact same conditions, and did NOT die). This would lead me to concur that Bowser is lighter than Dedede. The numbers do not add up, and I cannot accurately finish the Formula without exact weights.

http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Weight
http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-weight-rankings.367479/
http://www.ssbwiki.com/weight

This last one was better, but still not exact.
http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/32197/t1098915-character-weight-list/

If anybody knows where to find correct weights, please link them. I would kinda like to finish lol

 

[CHOVI]

I have looked at every single Weight Listing Chart for Sm4sh, and all of them say that Dedede is 119 and Bowser is 128. But this doesn't make sense, because Bowser dies at a lower percent (64% with 0% rage and Freshness Boost) than Dedede (who I tested at these exact same conditions, and did NOT die). This would lead me to concur that Bowser is lighter than Dedede. The numbers do not add up, and I cannot accurately finish the Formula without exact weights.

http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Weight
http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-weight-rankings.367479/
http://www.ssbwiki.com/weight

This last one was better, but still not exact.
http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/32197/t1098915-character-weight-list/

If anybody knows where to find correct weights, please link them. I would kinda like to finish lol

I think DDD has more "vertical resistence" which is different from weight :v

 

[drakeirving]

Well, the data from the first was eventually cross-referenced by ripping data directly, so it's completely accurate. The apparent discrepancy here is that knockback (and so kill percents) rely on both weight and fall speed, at the very least. You can find falling speed stats here: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Falling_speed#Super_Smash_Bros._4 (I dunno how this data was collected)
As you can see, DDD's fall speed is way more than Bowser's, who has a pretty low fall speed for his weight.

There are also either other factors at play or the relationship isn't linear, since looking at
(training_rest_kp) / (weight * fall_speed)
doesn't yield consistent values.

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

Well, the data from the first was eventually cross-referenced by ripping data directly, so it's completely accurate. The apparent discrepancy here is that knockback (and so kill percents) rely on both weight and fall speed, at the very least. You can find falling speed stats here: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Falling_speed#Super_Smash_Bros._4 (I dunno how this data was collected)
As you can see, DDD's fall speed is way more than Bowser's, who has a pretty low fall speed for his weight.

There are also either other factors at play or the relationship isn't linear, since looking at
(training_rest_kp) / (weight * fall_speed)
doesn't yield consistent values.

This just made the equation a lot more complicated. More variables to factor in.... ugh lol This is going to take a bit longer. In the meanwhile I'll just test the five "Checkpoints" (as Codaption put it) and post those results. But rest assured, I will be math-ing away at this formula!

Sidenote - All percents of KO's will be from Regular Battlefield from EXACTLY center stage.
and 75% is guaranteed on everyone with 0% rage and Freshness Boost, so if you're at 45-50+ percent and the opponent is at 60-65+ percent, rest will probably kill. Or just don't make it your main goal, because remember! Rest isn't her only kill option. There are gimps (for DAYS), back air has decent kill potential, and I always feel the most satisfaction from a read into an f-smash... But that's just me. I'll try and keep the thread updated on my progress if I need any assistance on my work

 

[Dapplegonger]

... But rest assured ...

I don't care if it was unintentional, I lol'd

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

I don't care if it was unintentional, I lol'd

Oh God, thank you for pointing that out. No it wasn't intentional lmao

 

[Codaption]

Dedede is pretty resistant to vertical when you factor in both his weight and fall speed, hence why I suggested testing it against him before as an absolute limit to when rest would kill.

Fun fact of the day: Dedede had the highest fallspeed in Brawl.

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

I have recently made tremendous bounds in my work to complete the "Rest" formula (I will concoct a more suiting title at a later date). It will be released shortly, and I would hope that everyone would have the courtesy as to credit my work if word gets around.

Thank you.

 

[CHOVI]

Dedede is pretty resistant to vertical when you factor in both his weight and fall speed, hence why I suggested testing it against him before as an absolute limit to when rest would kill.

Fun fact of the day: Dedede had the highest fallspeed in Brawl.

Actually, the absolute limit would be shield shulk...

 

[Codaption]

Actually, the absolute limit would be shield shulk...

Hmmm....fair point. But he's too much of an outlier, the gap between him and Dedede is much larger than Dedede against the rest of the cast.

Besides, we should be using edgeguarding tactics on shield Shulk, rather than kill moves.

 

[drakeirving]

well I have killed shield shulk with rest before

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

Hmmm....fair point. But he's too much of an outlier, the gap between him and Dedede is much larger than Dedede against the rest of the cast.

Besides, we should be using edgeguarding tactics on shield Shulk, rather than kill moves.

Actually, it doesn't matter who I test it on because the formula calculates the KO percent of all characters. Although I am not going to test it on all of the characters, you can certainly do it on your own. And for whatever reason, the falling speed for the different monado forms are not listed, and therefore the KO percent cannot be determined.

 

[Codaption]

Actually, it doesn't matter who I test it on because the formula calculates the KO percent of all characters. Although I am not going to test it on all of the characters, you can certainly do it on your own. And for whatever reason, the falling speed for the different monado forms are not listed, and therefore the KO percent cannot be determined.

That's....really convenient.

Once this formula is done, we should make a new thread for it to keep track of various death percents of characters. I'd keep track of it, if that sounds good with everyone.

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

That's....really convenient.

Once this formula is done, we should make a new thread for it to keep track of various death percents of characters. I'd keep track of it, if that sounds good with everyone.

Sounds good. I will create a spreadsheet as soon as it's finished, good idea about the thread, too.

However, that still means that we need the falling speeds of all of monado's on Shulk and Kirby (or maybe not so much Kirby lol).
Can someone find this out, and also, tell me how it was determined?

 

[CHOVI]

Sounds good. I will create a spreadsheet as soon as it's finished, good idea about the thread, too.

However, that still means that we need the falling speeds of all of monado's on Shulk and Kirby (or maybe not so much Kirby lol).
Can someone find this out, and also, tell me how it was determined?

Hadn't even though about kirby. I wonder whether shield kirby is on DDD's level (?) (Not like it matters unless we're fighting doubles or something)

 

[Codaption]

I'll check with the Shulk boards and ask around, maybe they could help us out.

I wouldn't consider Monado Kirby very high priority (considering we'd only encounter him in rare team battle situations), but I'll still try to get the info on him as well.

EDIT: Jump is apparently the only art that affects fall speed, meaning that every other one can be entered into the formula as is. I should hopefully have the exact fall speed of Jump soon, but for now that should handle everything else.

As for Kirby, Shield art seems to weigh between 109.5 and 110 (because arts apparently cause weird weight values). Smash Kirby has a weight of 66, even lighter than us. Values based on Zethoro's post here: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-weight-rankings.367479/page-8#post-18355603

EDIT 2: I got....something. Kinda. Not really sure how much it helps. http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-aerial-speed-list-horizontal-fall-and-fastfall.382495/ It's based on times rather than stats, but it's still sorta something. If we need more, I'll check back with the Shulk boards.

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

I'm trying to figure out the Rate at which Rage Increases, which is an exponential growth equation. I've been calculating it for Bowser, and I have the following work:

Using (x, y) coordinates, it needs to pass through points (50, 1.4388) and (100, 7.1942). Once this is figured out, the formula is practically complete. I will create a video of a walkthrough showing how to put the values and some of the confusing parts.

So all in all: Rage% Exponential Growth Equation SPECIFICALLY for Rest. Find it or make it, we need it

 

[Codaption]

Not really sure how I would go about that, but if someone could point me in the right direction I could do it.

In the meantime, I could cross-reference the stats posted by DrakeIrving with the times given to me by the Shulk boards to figure out jump and speed shulk's exact fall speed.

EDIT: The times are inconsistent with the fall speeds listed, most likely because of gravity. How should we factor gravity values in?

Relinking Drake's stats, as well as those for Gravity:
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Falling_speed#Super_Smash_Bros._4
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Gravity

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

Hmm, well I have no idea how to factor gravity in. I feel like fall speed conversely affects gravity because it lines up fairly well, but I could be wrong.

But if when I think I've finished the formula, and it works without Gravity as a variable, I'd say it's a safe assumption that it's not as important a factor to calculate. Not to say it's irrelevant, though.

 

[Dapplegonger]

I'm trying to figure out the Rate at which Rage Increases, which is an exponential growth equation. I've been calculating it for Bowser, and I have the following work:

Using (x, y) coordinates, it needs to pass through points (50, 1.4388) and (100, 7.1942). Once this is figured out, the formula is practically complete. I will create a video of a walkthrough showing how to put the values and some of the confusing parts.

So all in all: Rage% Exponential Growth Equation SPECIFICALLY for Rest. Find it or make it, we need it

Using Numbers/Excel trendline generator, the equation would be y = 0.2878*e^(1.6095*x) to fit into those values. You could try it with other percents and see if the y-values are accurate to this formula.

I have no idea if it is actually this simple btw, I just felt like contributing.

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

Using Numbers/Excel trendline generator, the equation would be y = 0.2878*e^(1.6095*x) to fit into those values. You could try it with other percents and see if the y-values are accurate to this formula.

I have no idea if it is actually this simple btw, I just felt like contributing.

It's late and I can't test it out right now, but I can tell you that all contributions to the completion of the formula is greatly appreciated. I will be sure to give credit to those of you have helped

And thank you so much for this equation. I'll check it out tomorrow and if it works, we just might be looking at something big.

I'm so hype right now

 

[Dapplegonger]

It's late and I can't test it out right now, but I can tell you that all contributions to the completion of the formula is greatly appreciated. I will be sure to give credit to those of you have helped

I'd test it out myself, but I don't actually have any idea what the y-value is in this scenario. I just saw two data points that needed to be connected with an exponential graph and the limited statistical side of my brain kicked in.

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

UPDATE: I hope that the Mewtwo DLC patch will not hinder these results... as long as Sakurai doesn't touch Rage values, weight, or falling speeds, we're in the clear

 

[Dapplegonger]

UPDATE: I hope that the Mewtwo DLC patch will not hinder these results... as long as Sakurai doesn't touch Rage values, weight, or falling speeds, we're in the clear

I doubt he'll mess with any of the formulas: rage is fine the way it is, and the knockback formula doesn't need to be altered. Once we determine the formulas, we can just plug in the adjusted weights and falling speeds, if there are any.

I was also snooping around to help contribute, Brawl and Melee both used a character's gravity to add to the knockback's y-component, and falling speed had nothing to do with anything, as you can see here http://www.ssbwiki.com/Knockback#Melee.2FBrawl. Something to keep in mind about that is Rest sends you at an 88° angle, not a full 90°, so you have to take into account that the y-component would become sin(88°)*KB + however gravity factors into it. As far as I know this is not confirmed to be the same formula Smash 4, but it could serve as a base for your formula. I found data from 1.04 that said d=20, s=.66 and b=100, but it also said that Rest kills at 70% without any context as to what that means (I checked, it does not apply to Mario from the center of FD, who is killed at around 60%), so take that with a grain of salt. This is the link for my info btw: http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8. It has all the knockback and damage data updated as of v1.04.

 

[Dapplegonger]

Also, I just want to say, I find it amazing that people in this community are so dedicated as to reverse engineer a complex gaming physics formula just to find the exact number at which one specific attack kills. It never ceases to astound me the amount of work people are willing to put in for this game. That's part of the reason I love being a part of it, because of things like this.

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

I doubt he'll mess with any of the formulas: rage is fine the way it is, and the knockback formula doesn't need to be altered. Once we determine the formulas, we can just plug in the adjusted weights and falling speeds, if there are any.

I was also snooping around to help contribute, Brawl and Melee both used a character's gravity to add to the knockback's y-component, and falling speed had nothing to do with anything, as you can see here http://www.ssbwiki.com/Knockback#Melee.2FBrawl. Something to keep in mind about that is Rest sends you at an 88° angle, not a full 90°, so you have to take into account that the y-component would become sin(88°)*KB + however gravity factors into it. As far as I know this is not confirmed to be the same formula Smash 4, but it could serve as a base for your formula. I found data from 1.04 that said d=20, s=.66 and b=100, but it also said that Rest kills at 70% without any context as to what that means (I checked, it does not apply to Mario from the center of FD, who is killed at around 60%), so take that with a grain of salt. This is the link for my info btw: http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8. It has all the knockback and damage data updated as of v1.04.

As for the degree launched, I'm only accounting for DI which further decreases this angle (which I think is pretty vertical without DI). That being said, if the person doesn't DI and they're at the percent you want, it'll be a KO no doubt. Also, I'm testing these kill percents off of normal Battlefield center stage on the WiiU version, so if there is a stage with higher ceilings.... add on another 5%-10% to be safe? And if it's a lower ceiling, there's really no worry. But until someone measures the size of all of the stages with a practical unit (bad example would be the blocks on omega hill zone), this is all I got. Eventually I may do this myself, because I already have some ideas in the early-planning stage on how to go about it. Nothing worth sharing yet, they aren't developed. Maybe one day!

 

[Dapplegonger]

Wait, Battlefield? I guess I should test it out there. If it kills Mario at 70%, I might have something.

EDIT: Nevermind, still have no idea where 70% came from.

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

When it says that it kills at 70%, my immediate interpretation is that Rest kills at 70% on everyone no matter what so long as there is no DI. But I could be wrong

 

[Dapplegonger]

I'd be inclined to agree, but I'm pretty sure Dedede takes like 80% to kill.

EDIT: Yeah, Dedede takes a bit more to kill.

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

I'd be inclined to agree, but I'm pretty sure Dedede takes like 80% to kill.

Last I checked it was around, if not exactly 70

 

[Jiggly]

Jab doesn't jab lock RIP

 

[Desu~]

Jab doesn't jab lock

No.


But ftilt can.

 

[Soft Serve]

Any other changes? I don't have a way to get to the new patch.

 

[BSXDrayden]

Not sure what the changes are but posting here to say stuff I meant to yesterday.

Got 12th out of 19 at our weekly when we did a round robin. Best I've done yet and I mostly played Jiggs with a little bit Lucina and Mac on the side. I'm really happy with how I did! A lot of my games were super close too! =D

 

[Dapplegonger]

It has been confirmed that Rest does the same amount of damage, but with 1% more flower damage so that the flower does 36% instead of 35%. Bair might have reduced landing lag and Rest might have a smaller hitbox, but neither of those things are confirmed.

 

[Codaption]

I very much hope for reduced landing lag on Bair. Should help out with one of my worst habits.

Also...welcome to the Puff Boards, @ Dapplegonger ! It's always nice to see a new face, especially since you were able to give good insight on the formula Gr4pefru1t is making for us. (Speaking of which, any info back on whether it works?)

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

(Speaking of which, any info back on whether it works?)

Well, I messaged Dapplegonger about how he went about finding the Rage Growth equation as to better understand it. Because I'm applying it as is right now, and it's so far off the mark (the way I'm doing it, which I assume is wrong somehow) that I need him to explain some things.

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

It may take a little while longer, being that I have recently become unfathomably busy. I'll need time to run some tests through using the rough version of the formula, which could take an hour minimum. I just don't have that kind of time right now.

 

[Codaption]

That's perfectly fine. With something this important, it can't afford to be rushed.