Meta Jigglypuff Competitive and Metagame Discussion

[Balgorxz]

I just feel like with the start-up of pound blitz, it's dangerous. It's predictable too, as pound blitz is one of the few reliable kill options. Up-throw can be DI'd, so it isn't safe. Its not too great out of shield, because its weaker than normal rest. It can be hit after up-tilt, but again that's only if there is no DI, which isn't common. Rest is good out of shield, it has rising Dair, and if you need a late percent kill like what leaping rest provides, jab SH rest works on all of the cast, due to it lifting them off the ground, and then the landing lag (be careful this doesn't work on low percents because they stay on the ground).

Rest is more powerful, more combos, and more applications. The only thing that leaping rest has over rest is that it can recover on delfino, halberd, wuhu, and skyloft. And even that is super punishable xD

yeah pound is better than pound blitz alone but I think the set up its worth it, uthrow and dthrow can both be combined if they actually DI incorrectly to setup the rest, also leaping rest hitbox is active even after reaching maximum altitude if you miss and they air dodge the hit still connects after that, you can also use leaping rest to finish the job in the air and if done correctly even if you do the rest outside the stage you can still recover since the rest time is smaller than the normal one, each one as has its own strenghs but considering the top tier characters out there I think matchupwise its stronger IMO

 

[Codaption]

yeah pound is better than pound blitz alone but I think the set up its worth it, uthrow and dthrow can both be combined if they actually DI incorrectly to setup the rest....

You shouldn't be relying on the opponent's failing to DI in order to land a kill.....all the other uses seem fine to me, but that quote in particular sticks out to me. If they CONSISTENTLY screw up their DI, that's different, but just assuming that the opponent is going to screw something up just won't work.

 

[Balgorxz]

You shouldn't be relying on the opponent's failing to DI in order to land a kill.....all the other uses seem fine to me, but that quote in particular sticks out to me. If they CONSISTENTLY screw up their DI, that's different, but just assuming that the opponent is going to screw something up just won't work.

its all about the rest hitbox and speed, you can easily see before if the DI is gonna work or not, also you can also hit them if they airdodge right after they DI to get away after getting thrown since the hitbox stays for a while.

 

[Jiggly]

yeah pound is better than pound blitz alone but I think the set up its worth it, uthrow and dthrow can both be combined if they actually DI incorrectly to setup the rest, also leaping rest hitbox is active even after reaching maximum altitude if you miss and they air dodge the hit still connects after that, you can also use leaping rest to finish the job in the air and if done correctly even if you do the rest outside the stage you can still recover since the rest time is smaller than the normal one, each one as has its own strenghs but considering the top tier characters out there I think matchupwise its stronger IMO

I dont think the rest time is shorter, it ends after the star-kill animation like the normal rest. Do you have any frame data proving the times?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Leaping Rest takes noticeably longer to finish the ending animation than regular Rest.

One useful thing about Pound Blitz is that you still have full horizontal drifting ability before the punch happens even if the startup is much longer. You're not just frozen in place for 24 frames beforehand.

 

[Flippant]

You hit with U-Air just as you touch the ground; the landing lag is shorter than the normal endlag.

Like this Reflex??

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Like this Reflex??

What?

 

[Flippant]

Sorry forgot the link, I'm dumb https://vine.co/u/1161176932436803584

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I mean, you can't rely on people to miss their techs if you want to punish reliably, but, enthusiasm is usually a good thing. Steps forward.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

D-Air seems to be surprisingly potent in edgeguarding. It has solid base knockback and high knockback growth, as well as an abnormally high hitlag modifier on the last hit (2.2x, as compared to the 0.8x on the linking hits); using it directly underneath the edge and steering it so the opponent gets sent into the edge is nice at middling percents and higher. The knockback growth as well as the extra hitlag tends to throw people off in terms of when to tech, and the lingering hitbox tends to catch airdodges, too, if you're still in range afterward.

I've sent a Mega Man into the lip of FD at ~55% post-hit and he was sent too low for Up-B to get him back to the ledge. That's significant power for gimping, and non-fastfall D-Air tends to hold opponents reliably. I'm not sure how much disjoint D-Air has (doesn't seem to be much), but it does poke at a space her other moves don't really cover and drags people downward during the linking hits if you're falling with it. Worth experimenting with.

 

[Codaption]

D-Air seems to be surprisingly potent in edgeguarding. It has solid base knockback and high knockback growth, as well as an abnormally high hitlag modifier on the last hit (2.2x, as compared to the 0.8x on the linking hits); using it directly underneath the edge and steering it so the opponent gets sent into the edge is nice at middling percents and higher. The knockback growth as well as the extra hitlag tends to throw people off in terms of when to tech, and the lingering hitbox tends to catch airdodges, too, if you're still in range afterward.

I've sent a Mega Man into the lip of FD at ~55% post-hit and he was sent too low for Up-B to get him back to the ledge. That's significant power for gimping, and non-fastfall D-Air tends to hold opponents reliably. I'm not sure how much disjoint D-Air has (doesn't seem to be much), but it does poke at a space her other moves don't really cover and drags people downward during the linking hits if you're falling with it. Worth experimenting with.

It's also good for using right after running off the edge, though it's not something I do often I could see it being useful.

 

[Desu~]

One thing though.

Has anyone actually tried to edgeguard with dsmash and see if it could actually be viable?

The thing I though about was that if you try to push your opponent out of the ledge, you can actually exploit the non invulnerable state if they ever try to go back to grabbing the ledge by using dsmash, which would lead to the lost of a stock.

Is it worth experimenting?

 

[Jiggly]

One thing though.

Has anyone actually tried to edgeguard with dsmash and see if it could actually be viable?

The thing I though about was that if you try to push your opponent out of the ledge, you can actually exploit the non invulnerable state if they ever try to go back to grabbing the ledge by using dsmash, which would lead to the lost of a stock.

Is it worth experimenting?

I've ledge trumped the opponent, jump off, Nair'd them, hopped on stage, waited for the grab, then Down smashed for the kill. It can work if you know they are too far down to recover any way but the ledge. But at that point, you might as well just Nair/Fair string them for the kill. It can be a neat kill, but isn't all too worth it that way. So I don't normally do it.

 

[Codaption]

I've ledge trumped the opponent, jump off, Nair'd them, hopped on stage, waited for the grab, then Down smashed for the kill. It can work if you know they are too far down to recover any way but the ledge. But at that point, you might as well just Nair/Fair string them for the kill. It can be a neat kill, but isn't all too worth it that way. So I don't normally do it.

Is it useful for mix-ups, at least?

 

[Jiggly]

Is it useful for mix-ups, at least?

Not really, because at that point you could just get the kill. I would only use it if you don't trust your handling of airdodging opponents.

 

[Desu~]

Well it COULD make things easier against people that decide to go for a low recovery.
But it still does look situational.

 

[Jiggly]

I take that back, it works well against teleportation recoveries.

 

[Reaper Talk]

I've ledge trumped the opponent, jump off, Nair'd them, hopped on stage, waited for the grab, then Down smashed for the kill. It can work if you know they are too far down to recover any way but the ledge. But at that point, you might as well just Nair/Fair string them for the kill. It can be a neat kill, but isn't all too worth it that way. So I don't normally do it.

At what percent would you go for this KO?
I feel like this mix-up would be a good niche for throwing openents off since everyone expects Fair offstage

 

[Jiggly]

At what percent would you go for this KO?
I feel like this mix-up would be a good niche for throwing openents off since everyone expects Fair offstage

I would use it at lower percents honestly, it's a good gimp setup. also, at the direction it send the opponent at, it could be spammed on the ledge.

 

[Flippant]

Who do you think would be best on a team with Puff?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Someone who can do all the ice-breaking themselves (so that Jigglypuff never has to approach). Someone who sets up for Rests really easily. Someone with a strong ground game.

I'm convinced that Teams largely revolves around doing your best moves repeatedly, and Rest is super-abusable in that case.

I've seen great success with Greninja/Jigglypuff and Mega Man/Jigglypuff.

 

[Reaper Talk]

Maybe Jiggs and Robin?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Robin isn't a fast character; I imagine many of the standard top tiers would run circles around that team. It's hard for Robin to land grabs, and Robin's throws are too powerful to cleanly set up for Jigglypuff follow-ups, as far as I can tell. Yes, you can crouch under Robin's projectiles, but you'd be easy to separate, and neither character is well-suited to deal with the following situations. Robin seems better suited to support (like Jigglypuff) and so you'd be too passive to do a lot, I think.

Some things about the combinations I suggested: Neither character minds having a 2v1 happen; Jigglypuff can just stall off-stage with Pound and a bunch of jumps while her partner appears. The great mobility and general range of Greninja and Mega Man make them really well-suited to fighting off both people at once, so even though you want to stick together, you're not badly off if you get separated.

They back each other up extremely well; Jigglypuff's pokes become way safer when pellets or a Greninja's dash grab accompany right behind them. A shielded D-Air means a free grab for your partner. If your partner plays conservatively, you can threaten opponents giving chase with things like Pound and your normal neutral game. It's easy for you to disrupt bad situations if you're nearby, and even if you can, they can Up-B to safety in order to reset the situation.

Any B-Throw leads to nasty stuff; Jigglypuff B-Throw -> Greninja U-Smash/double Mega U-Air, Greninja/Mega B-Throw -> Jigglypuff Down-B, or F-Air/B-Air back and forth for pingpong combos. Opportunities for grabs are plenty in Teams. Rest is safe to just do because of pellets/Water Shuriken and your partner's ability to be within range very quickly. Your job as Jigglypuff is to make sure they die early-early. Because of how elusive both characters are, it's not gimmicky to make this strategy work; it's generally a constant that they have to fear.

 

[Reaper Talk]

Good combos!
Now to find a Greninja partner
Although, there has to be some potential weakness
Yoshi could be some trouble with spamming eggs and CF could rush down Jiggs
With Greninja however, I think it could balance out
Greninja Fair -> Jigglypuff up tilt or leaping rest could be another combo ?
I see the greatest potential for this team when you're hitting someone offstage
Jigglpuff could cover air game with Fair and Bair while Greninja spams Water Shuriken
Just my thoughts

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Fullhop immediate D-Air has nine hits, the last of which has considerable hitlag freeze. Just found out that starting a fastfall at that same time as the hitlag freeze makes you land on the (presumably flat) ground on the earliest possible autocancel frame for D-Air, which is at least moderately earlier than simply waiting for D-Air endlag to finish normally. This will likely make some opponents' OoS punishes less effective, and could allow us to apply greater pressure or a stronger defense against an opponent with no great answer to that situation.

Also, if you start it when the top of your head would be immediately under a platform, a double-jump immediate D-Air autocancels on the platform in the same manner. If you can steer the D-Air toward the edge upon landing (fairly situational, I know), you can walk/run off the edge on the first IASA frame, allowing you to take to the air again a few frames faster than if you just jumped again. This could make certain combos and strings less strict, as well as allow for new strings after a D-Air. This could also reasonably be applied with F-Air, but I don't know of an easy way to manage it in terms of height.

 

[Flippant]

Do you think we could get a vid of this and its applications? I understand what it is but I don't think I doing it right

 

[Macchiato]

I think Zelda is a good doubles partner, shes just good at doubles in general. She can Din's Fire from afar, snipe people with Farores Wind. She can jump in with a Lightning Kick. Imo Zelda, Villager, Megaman, or greninja would all be great.

 

[Desu~]

But...

But what if I said that...

Zelda wouldn't really want to be in the frontlines?

 

[Flippant]

Can Puff's up-tilt trump punish?

 

[Jiggly]

I don't think Zelda would be a good puff team member honestly :/

 

[Envioux]

I've played doubles with Villager and Captain Falcon mains as my partner and both are amazing partner characters for me.

 

[Codaption]

I can see captain falcon working fabulously with jiggs. Don't like having two physical fighters, though...

 

[Patriot Duck]

I noticed that an aerial uncharged Rollout has a landing hitbox that does 7%. Normally this would be useless, but since Raging Rollout is unshieldable, I think it could be used sparingly as a mix-up against shield-happy opponents expecting an aerial attack.

 

[Jiggly]

I never realized how good puff's dash attack is this game. It beats a fully charged bowser f smash, and clashes with a fully aura boosted and charged aura sphere at low percents. The priority is real.

 

[Flippant]

It has invisibility frames, and a high priority, Its imo second best move next to Nair

 

[Codaption]

It has invisibility frames, and a high priority, Its imo second best move next to Nair

Don't forget rest

But yeah, dash is an amazing move, it and grabs are the only real reason to stay on the ground.

 

[CloudxStrife]

I'm having trouble with the G&W MU. His aerials seem to beat out mine and I feel like I'm the one that has to approach otherwise he gets free damage from his neutral b. The only thing that I had going for me was he had a hard time killing me, but I'm pretty sure it's because the G&W I was fighting wasn't using his usmash enough. In the case where the G&W is throwing out a usmash once I try to approach, how would I be able to deal with that? Any tips/advice? Thanks!

 

[Flippant]

I'm not well-versed in the G&W MU, but I do know you can intercept his recovery well though, Nair beats out his Up B.

 

[CHOVI]

I'm having trouble with the G&W MU. His aerials seem to beat out mine and I feel like I'm the one that has to approach otherwise he gets free damage from his neutral b. The only thing that I had going for me was he had a hard time killing me, but I'm pretty sure it's because the G&W I was fighting wasn't using his usmash enough. In the case where the G&W is throwing out a usmash once I try to approach, how would I be able to deal with that? Any tips/advice? Thanks!

He has a lot of lag in his attacks. In case of usmash you can airdodge into rest can't you?

By the way, I don't want to double post and I have a question. What's the use of upthrow in this game? I never find myself using it, I always find Dthrow to be a better option. Any reason to use it?

 

[Vinylic.]

Smash Highlights made a data spreadsheet on rest percent kills, still done in training mode w/o rage.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17qoNtZXv3ZZ_ixpkIXHyHTXo9KPORnaqz5n4aawYM8I/edit#gid=0

Compared to mines, ehhhhhhh. I'm gonna have to consider doing the real deal have this tested in actual matches, including monado arts and lightweight.