Meta Jigglypuff Competitive and Metagame Discussion

[Codaption]

He has a lot of lag in his attacks. In case of usmash you can airdodge into rest can't you?

By the way, I don't want to double post and I have a question. What's the use of upthrow in this game? I never find myself using it, I always find Dthrow to be a better option. Any reason to use it?

They're pretty much exactly the same, they both do 10% (when fresh) and put your opponent in a disadvantageous position. Uthrow has the added benefit of setting up for Leaping Rest, though, so if you're a fan of customs keep that in mind.

Otherwise, try to alternate between the two of them to squeeze as much damage from them as possible.

 

[FreshYarn43]

I play puff all the time in for glory play, and I win all of the time, but the biggest problem I have is how light she is. That is always the reason I lose the game, because the opponent gets a good read on me at early percents which causes me to KO.

 

[CHOVI]

I play puff all the time in for glory play, and I win all of the time, but the biggest problem I have is how light she is. That is always the reason I lose the game, because the opponent gets a good read on me at early percents which causes me to KO.

Yeah, that's just how Puff is :/

 

[Jiggly]

I play puff all the time in for glory play, and I win all of the time, but the biggest problem I have is how light she is. That is always the reason I lose the game, because the opponent gets a good read on me at early percents which causes me to KO.

Welcome to the gamble of puff, man!

 

[Flippant]

Is jab 1 to grab a thing for Puff?

 

[Jiggly]

Is jab 1 to grab a thing for Puff?

At higher percents it is.


Also, another puff the other day pulled off a jab-jab-fsmash. idk if it's a true combo, but it worked and I wasn't expecting it.

 

[Flippant]

Jab-jab-f-smash is definitely not a thing lmao. I wish but nah

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

Fair-jab-grab or Fair-grab- can work, so long as they don't expect it and react accordingly. Fair-jab-jab is "okay" in terms of shield pressure, but it's another way to condition your opponent.

 

[Jiggly]

Jab-jab-f-smash is definitely not a thing lmao. I wish but nah

I've been pulling it off. If they are at high percents jab lifts you off the ground slightly, and you can hit them during landing lag if they aren't quick. Most people expect another set of jabs, so if you condition them to 2 sets of jabs, they won't try to shield after jab 2.

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

I've been pulling it off. If they are at high percents jab lifts you off the ground slightly, and you can hit them during landing lag if they aren't quick. Most people expect another set of jabs, so if you condition them to 2 sets of jabs, they won't try to shield after jab 2.

It's definitely a thing that can happen, but it's not necessarily a true combo. It's good if, as you said (and as I said previously), you condition them into not expecting it. In that situation it is totally do-able

 

[Flippant]

Exactly what Grapefruit said, you need to catch them flinching

 

[Eonn]

For those of you using the gamepad, do you set the right stick to attack or just hit A+jump button at the same time?

Also, I'm having a lot if trouble trying to approach and I don't know how to mind game opponents. My jumping aerials are predictable, and I have no success rolling, grabbing, or dash attacking. I'm fairly new to Smash though, so keep that in mind.

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

For those of you using the gamepad, do you set the right stick to attack or just hit A+jump button at the same time?

Also, I'm having a lot if trouble trying to approach and I don't know how to mind game opponents. My jumping aerials are predictable, and I have no success rolling, grabbing, or dash attacking. I'm fairly new to Smash though, so keep that in mind.

I highly suggest you watch that one video ZeRo posted to his youtube channel and study it. It was Puff vs. Sheik. And I use the Pro, so exactly the same as the gamepad. But I leave the C stick as a smash attack, because jump is so close to the attack button anyway. Also, I recommend using the C stick to stage spike (if they recover low, tumble off and c stick back).

 

[Eonn]

What is the hitbox for rest? Is it between Jigg's eyes when airborne, and slightly above her when grounded? Or is that just melee? Thanks.

 

[Codaption]

What is the hitbox for rest? Is it between Jigg's eyes when airborne, and slightly above her when grounded? Or is that just melee? Thanks.

The hitbox is just Jigglypuff's body. The models of each character have to be overlapping in order for rest to land the hit, so if you jump/run into them (preferably jump) and use it you should have it down.

 

[Codaption]

Hey, can anyone tell me what percents Jigglypuff kills with rest reliably at 50%, 100%, and 150% rage? Preferably in the 3ds version.... It'd help to know when it kills Dedede (the most resistant to vertical kills) as well, but if not I'm fine with it.

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

Hey, can anyone tell me what percents Jigglypuff kills with rest reliably at 50%, 100%, and 150% rage? Preferably in the 3ds version.... It'd help to know when it kills Dedede (the most resistant to vertical kills) as well, but if not I'm fine with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJkp1P2uScw
Percentages are the same no matter what version of the game you play, so long as they are of the same Update/Patch. Also, you can test rage kill percentages out yourself in training mode.

 

[drakeirving]

Training mode isn't completely accurate for Rest kill%s because it lacks freshness bonus, which Rest will generally have in real matches. Just to keep in mind.

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

Training mode isn't completely accurate for Rest kill%s because it lacks freshness bonus, which Rest will generally have in real matches. Just to keep in mind.

If you're talking about Rest becoming stale, that's not a problem. You can keep jabbing your opponent until they are at the appropriate percentage that you want and then you can Rest them. It keeps Rest from going stale that way, and you can do that on your own.

 

[Codaption]

I don't think training mode factors in rage, though. I've tried it before, though it may have changed in a patch or something.

In any case, that video doesn't give any info on rage, so I can't really get anything from it anyhow. (It's honestly a terrible video anyways, it completely ignores DI as a factor.) What I need at the very least is the reliable kill percent for each rage percentage bonus. (A move is said to kill reliably when it kills robin from the middle of battlefield, although this is probably different for vertical kill moves.)

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

I don't think training mode factors in rage, though. I've tried it before, though it may have changed in a patch or something.

In any case, that video doesn't give any info on rage, so I can't really get anything from it anyhow. (It's honestly a terrible video anyways, it completely ignores DI as a factor.) What I need at the very least is the reliable kill percent for each rage percentage bonus. (A move is said to kill reliably when it kills robin from the middle of battlefield, although this is probably different for vertical kill moves.)

Okay, so if you're worried about DI then just tack on 10% or so and whammo kill percent! Or another 20% to feel safe. And if you don't think Training Mode factors in rage (which I'm absolutely sure it does) then I guess you'll have to *gasp* plug in another controller and test it that way -_-

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

And the video is still a contribution to our knowledge of Jigglypuff in Sm4sh, you can't just dismiss it wholly. That's just plain ignorance

 

[Jiggly]

the problem with tacking on random percent to try to compensate for DI, is that we don't get exact percent. Adding percent all willy nilly isn't gonna get us the right statistics. I'm pretty sure the rest video with the Jiggs was in training, which means the percents are a bit off. In training, rest does 20 percent, when it actually does 21%

 

[drakeirving]

If you're talking about Rest becoming stale, that's not a problem. You can keep jabbing your opponent until they are at the appropriate percentage that you want and then you can Rest them. It keeps Rest from going stale that way, and you can do that on your own.

No, the opposite. Training mode doesn't account for rage or the freshness bonus, both of which affect KB and keep training mode from yielding accurate numbers. The video you posted is fine in the sense that it gives a ballpark, but it isn't what was asked for. Yeah you can just say "well just try it with another controller" but that's completely unhelpful.

 

[The Puffer]

I didn't know Puff had Rest combos in this game 0_0

 

[Flippant]

I didn't know Puff had Rest combos in this game 0_0

They're nothing great, usually unreliable

 

[Jiggly]

They're nothing great, usually unreliable

Uair and dair are pretty reliable. Jab is also good.

 

[Flippant]

Dair seems the most reliable there, but can't they air dodge out? Jab gives them a 3 frame window to act out of iirc, and Uair only combos when it doesn't kill
Edit: Correct me if I'm wrong, my memory isn't the best

 

[The Puffer]

I usually use Rest for edge punishes.

Is that a good strategy??

 

[drakeirving]

Dair to Rest true combos most characters at quite nice ranges, often at kill%. The important part is the KB on the last hit. Uair won't combo at kill%, and jab just doesn't combo at any point, iirc.

If we're talking customs, Pound Blitz to Rest will also combo certain characters at kill%.

 

[Dapplegonger]

If we're talking customs, Pound Blitz to Rest will also combo certain characters at kill%.

Pound Blitz -> Leaping Rest is a really reliable combo. At high enough percents, it is a really reliable kill setup.

 

[Codaption]

Okay, so if you're worried about DI then just tack on 10% or so and whammo kill percent! Or another 20% to feel safe. And if you don't think Training Mode factors in rage (which I'm absolutely sure it does) then I guess you'll have to *gasp* plug in another controller and test it that way -_-

I would have already done that if I had the wii u version. Why else would I ask?

As @ drakeirving said, the video gives us a ballpark estimate of when it kills. We already knew when it killed reliably (around 50% or so), so while it narrows it down a bit for each character it's not very helpful at all.

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

No, the opposite. Training mode doesn't account for rage or the freshness bonus, both of which affect KB and keep training mode from yielding accurate numbers. The video you posted is fine in the sense that it gives a ballpark, but it isn't what was asked for. Yeah you can just say "well just try it with another controller" but that's completely unhelpful.

When I said use another controller, I meant it as going into an actual match (Local) and then figure it out yourself or with a friend. And as for the video and your response, it is so childish to say it "wasn't what was asked for" just because it was a "ballpark."

Here's an example. I barely had to exaggerate.

"Rest kills from around X and u-"
"No that simply what do. What is the exact number while also taking into account every possible scenario in the game"
"Well I only teste-"
"You're information is invaluable and therefore worthless. Goodbye, and maybe do some work next time."

I'm honestly done with this thread because of how much people don't want to figure things out and help, and would rather complain about how their question wasn't answered in full.

At least you got an answer. Lab it up.

 

[drakeirving]

Um, I didn't mean to sound antagonistic at all. Sorry if you got that out of my post. Really though, what is with your attitude? Lemme break this down by post:

- Codaption asks for kill percents given rage.
- You respond with a video of kill percents in training mode, which while a nice gesture, wasn't really what asked for because it ignores rage, and isn't super accurate to begin with because it ignores freshness as well. Obviously you didn't know this, since you suggested to use training mode to figure it out.
- I tell you that training mode isn't accurate for what they wanted because of the above reasons.
- You misunderstand my post, that's fine.
- Codaption reiterates that they were looking for the numbers with rage and so the video wasn't helpful in that regard.
- You misunderstand that they wanted exact numbers, then assert that training factors rage (it doesn't) and call them ignorant just for telling you the video that wasn't useful to them, wasn't useful to them. Which again, was because you didn't understand that they wanted rage numbers specifically, which they said in their first post. What?
- Jiggly also tells you why the video and your advice isn't helpful to what was asked, because you still didn't get it.
- I clarify what I meant in the earlier post. I tell you that "do it yourself" is unhelpful advice, mostly because they probably wouldn't be asking in the first place if they thought it was easy for them to do so.
- Codaption notes that they can't test it themselves because they only have the 3DS version.
- You proceed to completely ignore why everyone's been telling you that what you posted wasn't what they asked for to begin with, and complain that people won't just test things themselves right after Codaption explains why they can't. And of course you greatly play up this scenario as though you're being attacked or something.

Everyone else posting seemed to understand what Codaption actually wanted, so if you keep showing that you still didn't get it every time you post, of course it's going to seem as though people are teaming up on you. Just chill out.

 

[Codaption]

Honestly, I was feeling kind of attacked myself. Glad to see it wasn't just me feeling butthurt :/

But yeah, Drakeirving pretty much got it right. You gave me an answer to a completely separate question, which the answer to was already well known. I just needed the reliable percents (aka when it kills robin, the definitive middle of the road character in terms of KBR, from the center of a stage with average blast zones like Battlefield) for when Jiggs is in varying levels of rage. I don't have a wii u to test it myself, and since nobody has given me a straight answer it seems like nobody has actually bothered to test it before. Which is something that would be EXTREMELY helpful, given that we DO know it scales very well with rage, so it's definitely not something we can just stick a rough guess onto.

With a move like rest, a ballpark estimate is never enough, and an extremely vague one is no help whatsoever. Knowing exactly when to rest helps us to get early kills while still avoiding the possibility of them not clearing the blast zone and us losing a stock for it.

 

[Krysco]

I have a poor quality capture card but I can see about testing and recording this Rest + rage idea. Can only test it on the Wii U version though so Battlefield and Final Destination are probably the only stages worth testing, at least for Codaption's sake. For general usefulness, I could test on Halberd and KJ64.

 

[Desu~]

huh...

You smell that?



.




Smells like Drama.

 

[Codaption]

I have a poor quality capture card but I can see about testing and recording this Rest + rage idea. Can only test it on the Wii U version though so Battlefield and Final Destination are probably the only stages worth testing, at least for Codaption's sake. For general usefulness, I could test on Halberd and KJ64.

For my purposes, I'd just need the numbers, though it'd be nice to make a video for the convenience of other jiggs players. Go for it, if you want!

 

[Krysco]

I'm just gonna think aloud a bit and ask a few questions for that whole Rest + rage idea.

I know Training mode won't work but what about the normal Smash mode if handicap is on? Like if I turn handicap on and set Puff's % to 50 and test and 100 and test. Will rage kick in if I do that? If not then I guess Fox'll be shooting two characters rather than one.

I've also seen D3 and Robin be mentioned as characters to test on, I could also test on another Puff so we have the most and least vertically resistant and I guess Robin is the middle?

And then there's the issue of DI. I'm gonna go ahead and ask what is probably a dumb question but how does DI work in this game? Is it like Brawl where you hold left/right when you're sent up and down when you're sent to the sides? I know vectoring is either completely or somewhat removed but I just want to be sure. Also since DI is a factor I'll have to see about getting my cousin to help so I'm not trying to Rest someone with one controller and DI with another at the same time.

And lastly, just gonna reconfirm that the stages I'll probably test on are Battlefield, Halberd and Kongo Jungle 64. Pretty sure BF and FD have similar ceilings so it would seem redundant. Pretty sure Halberd is the lowest ceiling (or at least the lowest legal) in the Wii U version and KJ64 is the highest ceiling (or again, highest legal) in the Wii U version.

The plan is to have 3 controllers plugged in on normal Smash mode with handicap turned on to quickly get Puff to 50% and 100% (assuming that works) and the other controllers being Fox (to blaster spam for damage on the next characters) and Puff/Robin/D3 as the victims of this Rest test. I'll have my cousin control the victim character and have him walk up to me as I Rest him so that way he's constantly holding left/right during and after the hit of Rest.

College will probably hold me back from doing this immediately but I'll get around to it sometime this month at the very least.

TL;DR Does handicap allow rage to kick in? How does DI work? The rest is me explaining stuff/making a wall of text.

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

I am currently developing an equation to find the relativity of rage to distance, and how rage scales into a kill percent (Puff% manipulated by weight = death%). I will not calculate the variants of DI, only Maximum DI. I will also include three kinds of percent: with freshness bonus, without freshness bonus, and totally stale. I will not take every character into consideration, which is why I'm developing the equation. It will allow you to insert said characters weight and it will come up with their KO percent. I will only test 5 characters, each 1/5 apart on the weight chart.

EDIT: Reminder that in reference to the weight chart, this equation will be able to determine the kill percent of all characters. Just plug in what their weight is.