Meta Jigglypuff Competitive and Metagame Discussion

[Jiggly]

You hit with U-Air just as you touch the ground; the landing lag is shorter than the normal endlag.

so you instantly get a rest afterwards? Alright. It may be nice to get a thread of these still...

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You don't "instantly" get anything. There's still a decent bit of landing lag. You just get to move (and, consequently, jump -> Rest) earlier than without landing during U-Air.

 

[RBreadsticks]

Hey y'all just picked up Jiggs today as a side character and she seems really fun! So I'm looking for some general tips.

What should I be looking for in kills? So far the only things I can seem to kill with are bair, rest, fsmash and strings of fairs or bairs offstage. Is there some other move that kills that I'm overlooking?

What are her particular good and bad match ups? I kinda just went into every match the same just throwing out walls of aerials.

Any advice in general would be nice really wanna pick her up as a secondary

 

[drakeirving]

Uptilt starts killing upwards of 100%, and it comes out on frame 9, so it's pretty quick. It hits behind and above. It's a good move but sometimes hard to connect.

Dash attack comes out frame 5 and its first hitbox can kill, so that's great. Problem is that it lasts forever, so it's almost a guaranteed punish on shield. Can't use it willy-nilly.

Nair's first hitbox can also kill, but mainly you'll see it killing around the ledge or when offstage. Even when it doesn't kill with knockback it's a good offstage gimping tool.

Upair isn't generally a kill move but is definitely a move that can kill off the top depending on the situation.

 

[ZeroJanitor]

Downsmash sends people down and away so as long as you're not fighting someone with great recovery it's a good situational edgeguard. Upsmash... well it's a move. It's strong but there's almost always a better option.

But yeah, bairs, rests, and walls of pain are your best kill options.

 

[Jiggly]

Hey y'all just picked up Jiggs today as a side character and she seems really fun! So I'm looking for some general tips.

What should I be looking for in kills? So far the only things I can seem to kill with are bair, rest, fsmash and strings of fairs or bairs offstage. Is there some other move that kills that I'm overlooking?

What are her particular good and bad match ups? I kinda just went into every match the same just throwing out walls of aerials.

Any advice in general would be nice really wanna pick her up as a secondary

Stringing NAIRs offstage is crucial, it changes your playstyle a lot, do the better. The long lasting hitbox an the decent knockback is really good, it's much better than stringing fairs offstage in most situations, and often times you can't land a Bair.

 

[Krynxe]

Nair stays out long enough to beat airdodges if you time it right. They can also punish people's rolls on reaction thanks to puff's aerial mobility. It's her best move in Smash 4 in my opinion.

 

[Jiggly]

Nair has also been useful as a missed tech punish, as for some reason it works better for me than rollout :/

 

[drakeirving]

Missed tech punishes with Jiggs are fantastic because I feel as though you have viable (or semi-viable) options at any reasonable range. At long range (and given good conditions) Rollout can work well; at medium ranges you have nair or fair if you're in the air or dash attack (weak) if you're grounded; at short ranges you still have dash attack (strong) and various aerials; then finally at best, you can chase from the air into a Rest opportunity. Some are obviously safer than others but I think our availability to punish is way better than most characters.

 

[Jiggly]

How many frames do most characters get to get from the end of hitbox frames of the get up attack, and the beginning frames of the neutral stance? I would really like to know this data, to see how probable a SH Air dodge of a get up attack to rest punish is.

 

[drakeirving]

Most can be shielded (maybe even after an empty hop) and then OoS Rest. Is there a reason you'd want to airdodge?

 

[Jiggly]

Most can be shielded (maybe even after an empty hop) and then OoS Rest. Is there a reason you'd want to airdodge?

get up attack takes 65% of shield, and with jiggs playstyle and shield handicap, it's dangerous. Plus shield causes them to slide, making htem further away from the opponent where airdodge will cause you to appear on the opponent.

 

[LifeMakesMeLOL]

Does anyone have any tips for fighting ZSS? The amount of pressure I get from good ones makes it really hard to do anything, for me at least.

 

[Codaption]

What are some good, reliable rest setups I can use? I've heard a little about using dair like in 64, but it doesn't seem reliable to me at all.

 

[Jiggly]

What are some good, reliable rest setups I can use? I've heard a little about using dair like in 64, but it doesn't seem reliable to me at all.

YOu can use Dair, but not like in 64. You have to do a rising dair.

 

[Codaption]

Hmmm....I'll try that out.
I've already experimented with the jab and uair setups. The jab one seems.....iffy. I might have to try it out some more. The uair, I've fallen in live with. :3

Meanwhile...that jab counter seems very handy if I could pull it off....

 

[CHOVI]

YOu can use Dair, but not like in 64. You have to do a rising dair.

I can do dair into rest in training but I can't seem to set it up in battle because it doesn't work at every percentage and it's just too hard to connect the whole dair... any tips?

 

[Jiggly]

I can do dair into rest in training but I can't seem to set it up in battle because it doesn't work at every percentage and it's just too hard to connect the whole dair... any tips?

you normally can't fish for it, gotta wait for a punish, or out of shield.

 

[CHOVI]

you normally can't fish for it, gotta wait for a punish, or out of shield.

Cool, thanks, I'll try
Also, maybe it's too much to ask... but do you know of any videos of the combo actually being executed in a fight? Thanks in advance

 

[drakeirving]

I have a few replays, but I don't currently have access to recording equipment, unfortunately.
I'd agree though, in practice I've tended to try for it OoS when nair or a raw Rest aren't good options, because really that's the only time you'll be able to safely get it started beside the opponent. That being said, it's also possible to situationally get the link into Rest even when you don't hit with the whole dair, as long as you're still in the air and moving forward at the end, and the opponent gets knocked forwards by the last hit. The setup just makes it easier.

 

[Codaption]

Hmmm....tell me if this has already been said, but a short-hopped Pound seems like a fairly good method for comboing into Rest. It works at similar ko percents as the Uair-Rest combo as far as I can tell, so as an alternative kill option it's worth looking into.

If anyone asks, I'm willing to share a little more I've noticed about this particular setup.

EDIT: Woah, okay. After a little more testing, you can also use rising pound in a similar way to combo into fair and then a rest. INSANELY hard to do (I had a lot of trouble doing it against a training mode cpu), but very rewarding, you can get the kill very early if your spacing is absolutely perfect. I'm personally testing it on Mario on FD, the the three hits in tandem can knock him out starting at 30% easy.

 

[Codaption]

Okay... After a little more digging, this chain kills bowser starting at 33%. Seems like a fairly small jump when comparing his and mario's weight, but considering how small the difference in kill percents is on the Uair-Rest, plus how much more lenient the spacing is with bowser, it's understandable.

Come to think of it, the only one who can feasibly survive this by any stretch of the imagination is Dedede, due to his combination of falls peer and weight. Though, he still dies if the combo starts at 53%.... Anyone else is gone at 40% or lower, heck, a Jiggypuff ditto is out at 13%.

(By the way...for those who aren't confident in the rest hit, which I know I'm not, you can much more easily follow it up with nair or another pound.)

 

[Ieven]

Hi guys, i saw this video and i don't understand how it works, someone can explain ?

http://zippy.gfycat.com/InferiorTenseIberiannase.webm

 

[Jiggly]

Hi guys, i saw this video and i don't understand how it works, someone can explain ?

http://zippy.gfycat.com/InferiorTenseIberiannase.webm

frame 1-24 of rest gives intangibility. Frames 2 and 3 has a hitbox. The attack put her hurt box into the hitbox of rest. Due to the intangibility, the resting puff didn't get hurt, but then the puff that Uaird was hit by the rest. Please tell me if you understand my explanation, if not I can reword it xD

 

[drakeirving]

It's more than that. By hitting the balloon with Rest, Jiggs goes into freeze frames, extending the hitbox period and allowing it to then hit the other Puff. Normally it wouldn't have lasted long enough to hit them. This behaviour has been present since at least Melee since the same happens when you Rest Propeller Shy Guys.

 

[King Ching]

Does anyone have any tips for fighting ZSS? The amount of pressure I get from good ones makes it really hard to do anything, for me at least.

Hey I know what you mean. My first tournament I lost against a ZSS. I learned after some practice that the best advantage Jigs has over ZSS is she can crouch under a lot of ZSS's moves. Jigs can duck under ZZS's grab, stun shot, f smash, and dash attack. Just be weary if ZZS can still hit Jigs with the whip, but I found its helpful to roll behind them when they use the whip and punish them.

Also while ducking a good way to punish is with her down jab, because its got good range and will kick opponents away and into a combo.

Just make sure to duck/crouch a lot against a ZSS. Don't make it TOO obvious though or ZSS will start abusing the whip. Hope this helps. I was able to use this and beat a bunch of ZSS after awhile.

 

[Codaption]

Does anyone have any tips for fighting ZSS? The amount of pressure I get from good ones makes it really hard to do anything, for me at least.

Following up on @ King Ching and his thoughts, another thing you could try to do is force her offstage and edgeguard her. Though she has her various recovery tools, Jigglypuff is an amazing edgeguarder, and ZSS's fallspeed makes it so you can WoP her off the stage and keep her there.

 

[CHOVI]

Hey I know what you mean. My first tournament I lost against a ZSS. I learned after some practice that the best advantage Jigs has over ZSS is she can crouch under a lot of ZSS's moves. Jigs can duck under ZZS's grab, stun shot, f smash, and dash attack. Just be weary if ZZS can still hit Jigs with the whip, but I found its helpful to roll behind them when they use the whip and punish them.

Also while ducking a good way to punish is with her down jab, because its got good range and will kick opponents away and into a combo.

Just make sure to duck/crouch a lot against a ZSS. Don't make it TOO obvious though or ZSS will start abusing the whip. Hope this helps. I was able to use this and beat a bunch of ZSS after awhile.

This and also, don't duck the gun if she's too close or you WILL get grabbed and boy is it annoying

 

[Desu~]

http://zippy.gfycat.com/InferiorTenseIberiannase.webm

OH LORD EXPANDED REST HURTBOX OUT OF BALLOON HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

Jiggs new counterpick stage confirmed.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I ended up winning a local Doubles event with my buddy Kismet. Lots of tech being found; Megaman/Jigglypuff seems REALLY strong.

Cross-up D-Air lets your partner get a free grab if the opponent shields. Mega Man can make a lot of your stuff safe by just shooting pellets while you harass people with D-Air.

Mega Man U-Air hits puts people in the tiniest amount of hitstun on each hit. As a result, you and the opponent will be stuck in it for the same amount of time. Rest comes out on Frame 2 and is essentially unavoidable post-Air Shooter if you jump in when you see someone get caught by it. It also has the advantage of moving you upward, getting you early-early KOs.

B-Throws set up well for Rest, and you can easily B-Air or N-Air them into an Air Shooter. You don't have to do any real approaching; it's incredibly easy to capitalize on Mega Man's stuff. It felt similar to the great Greninja/Puff team I fought at APEX, with Amsah/Abadango.

 

[Hoenn]

I am sorry if this is the wrong place to ask this, but I have a lot of issues with the puff matchup in neutral.
This is not a matchup specific problem, I have the same problem with the entire cast and I know that I just don't understand what fundamentally beat puff.
When a puff starts Fair spacing, what is the best way to get around it? I usually find myself in a situation where I am stuck in the corner shielding and Fair is generally safe on shield if spaced properly. Even in center stage I have the same issue, but I end up in the corner again because I either retreat, or get hit by the fair (knocking me to the corner).
I usually beat puff players by getting lucky hits, then getting lucky smash attacks. I don't think that is at all acceptable and I want to learn this matchup badly.
What do you usually have issues with when using spaced fair? How do It on a fundamental level? I want to be able to beat puff with pikachu

 

[Codaption]

I am sorry if this is the wrong place to ask this, but I have a lot of issues with the puff matchup in neutral.
This is not a matchup specific problem, I have the same problem with the entire cast and I know that I just don't understand what fundamentally beat puff.
When a puff starts Fair spacing, what is the best way to get around it? I usually find myself in a situation where I am stuck in the corner shielding and Fair is generally safe on shield if spaced properly. Even in center stage I have the same issue, but I end up in the corner again because I either retreat, or get hit by the fair (knocking me to the corner).
I usually beat puff players by getting lucky hits, then getting lucky smash attacks. I don't think that is at all acceptable and I want to learn this matchup badly.
What do you usually have issues with when using spaced fair? How do It on a fundamental level? I want to be able to beat puff with pikachu

Hmmm....if you're looking to use pikachu, it might cause you a bit of trouble. The BEST thing to do is make good use of your neutral special (thundershock iirc), but Fair should out-prioritize that bad baby every time. What I would honestly try is to run up to them after they hit the shield and use Up smash, as it comes out very fast and should hit them before they come out of the Fair's endlag.

Jigglypuff is very vulnerable to vertical finishers in general, being both the lightest and floatiest character in the roster. Take advantage of that. I'll try and think of more if I can, but hopefully others can give some insight as well.

 

[Patriot Duck]

I did some testing, and I found that a short-hop rising pound blitz combos into rest on some characters (namely Diddy and Falcon) at around 40-45% and kills them. It doesn't seem too difficult to pull off. I could see this being really useful once custom moves become standard, which looks to be very soon.

 

[Jiggly]

I did some testing, and I found that a short-hop rising pound blitz combos into rest on some characters (namely Diddy and Falcon) at around 40-45% and kills them. It doesn't seem too difficult to pull off. I could see this being really useful once custom moves become standard, which looks to be very soon.

Interesting, I'll try to make a set with that...

 

[TheReflexWonder]

That makes sense. The final hit of Pound Blitz has weaker knockback than regular Pound and sends people straight up (90 degrees) instead of up and slightly sideways (Pound's 75 degrees). I suppose the trouble would be that the startup on Pound Blitz is much worse (initial hitbox of Pound Blitz comes out on Frame 25, as compared to Pound's Frame 13), but the significant disjoint and relative safety on block might still get it to warrant use in specific matchups.

 

[King Ching]

I actually need help fighting certain match ups with Jigglypuff. I notice I struggle against people who can charge up projectiles and run away like Samus, Robin, and Lucario. Everytime I try to stop their charge ups they just keep rolling away. Then they wait for me to mess up and unleash their charged projectile.

Any advice on how to battle these types of characters with JIgglypuff?

 

[CHOVI]

I actually need help fighting certain match ups with Jigglypuff. I notice I struggle against people who can charge up projectiles and run away like Samus, Robin, and Lucario. Everytime I try to stop their charge ups they just keep rolling away. Then they wait for me to mess up and unleash their charged projectile.

Any advice on how to battle these types of characters with JIgglypuff?

I know dat feel
My advice is to try to be more agressive. You absolutely CAN'T let them start camping. The characters you mention are all slower than Jiggs, so we got that. IMO, We just need to start aggressively, not let them charge projectiles often and hopefully get an early gimp/rest.

 

[Patriot Duck]

I actually need help fighting certain match ups with Jigglypuff. I notice I struggle against people who can charge up projectiles and run away like Samus, Robin, and Lucario. Everytime I try to stop their charge ups they just keep rolling away. Then they wait for me to mess up and unleash their charged projectile.

Any advice on how to battle these types of characters with JIgglypuff?

Try cornering them at the edge of the stage and feint an approach. Wait for them to roll toward you and punish accordingly. Also, Jigglypuff can crouch under all of Robin's thunder projectiles.

 

[Balgorxz]

well pound blitz into leaping rest is a true combo on all the cast at pretty much any %, you can get a kill at 80% with it.
using regular rest isn't very helpful after getting used to leaping rest

 

[Jiggly]

well pound blitz into leaping rest is a true combo on all the cast at pretty much any %, you can get a kill at 80% with it.
using regular rest isn't very helpful after getting used to leaping rest

I just feel like with the start-up of pound blitz, it's dangerous. It's predictable too, as pound blitz is one of the few reliable kill options. Up-throw can be DI'd, so it isn't safe. Its not too great out of shield, because its weaker than normal rest. It can be hit after up-tilt, but again that's only if there is no DI, which isn't common. Rest is good out of shield, it has rising Dair, and if you need a late percent kill like what leaping rest provides, jab SH rest works on all of the cast, due to it lifting them off the ground, and then the landing lag (be careful this doesn't work on low percents because they stay on the ground).

Rest is more powerful, more combos, and more applications. The only thing that leaping rest has over rest is that it can recover on delfino, halberd, wuhu, and skyloft. And even that is super punishable xD