Meta Jigglypuff Competitive and Metagame Discussion

[TheReflexWonder]

That's something, isn't it?

Honestly, that's one of her biggest issues; people don't have much incentive to not-shield and not-roll against her when they feel uncomfortable.

 

[ZHMT]

Well we do have the best damaging pummel in the game. (Besides 170%+ Lucario) Damage per second anyway. It does suck that she gets no combos off grabs though, I wish she had a KO throw or her dthrow comboed into aerials. Oh well.

Just imagine if her fthrow had as much knockback as Warios, and his isn't even a great kill throw relative to the cast.

 

[ilikcereal101]

Actually I found this out on some medium to heavy characters, at early percents you can in fact WOP two bairs, but you must be really quick and read their recovery. I found that an effective method is back throw and if they recover low then read their second jump a put a back air then, you must be really quick, and jump and bair again remember only works on medium to heavy characters. Hopefully we can improve this and make jiggs a better player. There is a lot going for her in this game

 

[ZeroJanitor]

So how do you guys fight Charizard?

 

[ilikcereal101]

I try to WOP them with fairs or bairs for that melee touch

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I've never really fought a great Charizard, so I don't feel like I'm qualified to speak on the subject.

I was messing around with Footstool -> immediate Rest and found that it works on a decent handful of characters. Some require the opponent to be on the ground, while others require the opponent to be in the air. Charizard is the only character who gets it both ways:

Bowser - Aerial
Yoshi - Grounded
Wario - Grounded
Donkey Kong - Aerial
Mr. Game and Watch - Aerial
Charizard - Grounded and Aerial
Ness - Aerial
Olimar - Aerial
Pac-Man - Grounded
Mega Man - Grounded
Sonic - Grounded

Probably not very useful, but maybe we'll find a future set-up. In the meantime, I'm cooking up an option select that makes this safer to go for...

EDIT: boop

 

[ilikcereal101]

Some beast tech too bad it doesn't work on everyone

 

[therestofus]

I have I ever told you the meaning of insanity?

 

[ZHMT]

I like the option selecct a lot, it'll come in handy someday.

Also guys, Puff is super grab based. Our grab has great startup and is somewhat safe compared to most characters. Startup on frame 6 ends on 29.

We have the best pummel damage in the game with exception to very high aura Lucario (Like 170%). All our throws do 10% damage (10.5% fresh, so alternate throws a lot to get that freshness bonus).

Since her jab hits frame 5 and ftilt frame 7, our grab is right around the same speed as these moves, so a lot of the time grabbing is simply the best option sine our grab range is similar to ftilt or jab1 with similar startup. Its not like were gonna be in situations where we have a 2 frame jab combo waiting for someone.

Approach in the air, and just fast fall into a grab or cross them up and grab. If you know they are gonna shield, they have to shield for at least 11 frames, and then drop shield after or jump/usmash etc. Its safe to crossup and grab and pretty safe to just fall and grab if they are scared. If they antcipate you falling and grabbing, attacking them beats what they are gonna do. Straight 50/50s everytime you get close if someones defensive and a lot of the time they are safe 50/50s.

I accept that I should rarely attack into a shield if its part of a decision I'm making. When people shield preemptively don't attack it.

Pummel damage of 3.1% + Throw damage of 10 = 13.1%

Sheik dthrow damage of 6% + Up air damage of 7% = 13%

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I just wish her fastfall was...well, faster. People often jump out-of-shield on reaction when they see you just hanging out.

 

[Jiggly]

I thought the footstool combo was cool, saw it in my subscription box several days ago.

Btw, Jab rest is also a combo, I posted a thread about it if you wanna check it out!

 

[ZHMT]

I just wish her fastfall was...well, faster. People often jump out-of-shield on reaction when they see you just hanging out.

True, they do this a lot right before you land. Its still generally a advantage to Puff though since they have to guess anyway. You can shield when you land, or attack right before you land as they jump.

Jump squat animations and an aerial is going to be slower than Puffs fair or nair. I do wish her aerial mobility was a tad faster and she fell a little faster too.

The main issue imo with our 50/50s is the rage mechanic. We are the lightest character so its harder for us to get full advantage of it. If rage bonuses scaled to character weight like I think it should, Puff would get a large boost in ko power and be kinda "heavier" vs above average weighted characters.

Just make the bottom 5 weights rage max out at like 125% and top 5 heavy characters max at like 175%. Right now everyone is at 150% which is silly because Dedede at 150% and Puff at 150% are two completely different things.

This may be a slight issue as it would Buff Rosas KO power though lmao

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Just make sure Luma doesn't get Rage, obv

 

[ZHMT]

I know this is pure speculation btw, but since damage is part of the knockback calculation, if we got some damage buffs on certain moves it could mean a lot.

Uthrow damage buff from 10% to 12% would make it a usable kill throw with some rage.

Rest damage buff from 20 to 24% (lol) would make our window to utilt or uair into rest characters basically double or more. The move would ko like 11-13% earlier on average.

Uair damage from 9 to 10% would make it a very good kill move during juggles.

Dair individual hits doing 3% and lowering the last hits damage ould possibly make it so they can't drop shield during the hits. Also its damage would be kinda silly but not being able to drop shield during it is the big thing imo.

 

[ilikcereal101]

So idk if anyone saw my WOP thing idk if u guys have tried it out

 

[Desu~]

Well.....
yeah.
Puff has WoP capabilities in this game too!

 

[Jay-kun]

(What is) WoP. (,>.<,)

 

[LightningLuxray]

Wall Of Pain, a technique where Jigglypuff carries her opponent offstage with a string of aerials to their death. Called a "wall" because it's very hard to get past.

 

[Flippant]

Hey what pro Puffs are out there to watch? I know HBox, but I'm looking for more sm4sh players.

 

[ZHMT]

Puffs fair has a range of 13.5 units from center of her body, and her jab1 has a range of 15.9, jab2 is 16.9. Back aerial is 16 units.

This means her jab1 outranges her fair and almost has the same range as her bair. Her second hit of jab outranges her back air. Granted you have aerial mobility with her fair and bair and not her jab to compensate.

I don't know if her jab is just a lot better in this game. Or her other moves don't have great range at all.

Technically there is little reason to use ftilt or dtilt because jab is better in almost every way. Jab combo into dtilt or ftilt works when they flinch high enough to suffer landing lag. Its a true combo. This means at those percents its almost always better to jab, better startup and safety is more important than damage.

Also since Puff sticks her arm out a lot closer to her body during a jab than her tilts and aerials, her jab has a lot more disjoint than it looks. You can hit a bob-omb with second hit jab and take no damage if spaced properly. (Which works with Pound as well.)

I'm kinda happy about it though, her jab was terrible in Brawl.

 

[Jiggly]

So I've been practicing rising Dair > Rest, but I've run into a problem. Half the time I'm not fast enough to reach the opponent after they get launche out of dair, but sometimes it does work. Is there a good way to increase your aerial mobility out of Dair?

 

[ZHMT]

So I've been practicing rising Dair > Rest, but I've run into a problem. Half the time I'm not fast enough to reach the opponent after they get launche out of dair, but sometimes it does work. Is there a good way to increase your aerial mobility out of Dair?

You need to begin moving in the direction they are going to be sent from the last hit of dair during the last third of the move or so.

 

[Jiggly]

You need to begin moving in the direction they are going to be sent from the last hit of dair during the last third of the move or so.

I do, I just don't seem to get it... Oh well, I'll just mess with it more in the lab and just try to figure it out

 

[Desu~]

So I got 19th out of 61 people in a tournament yesterday. Barely made any progress so far.

Guys, the more I play Jigglypuff, the more I feel like Jigglypuf is placing itself more to the low part of mid tier.
I have a hard time dealing with characters like Ness, Toon Link, Dedede's nair to dtilt was a total pain and Falcon's overaggressiveness is hard to manage.

I need help. Please. My spirit is breaking.

 

[Jiggly]

I got 8 out of 32 the other day, would've made 6 but I made a terrible input error >.<

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If the idea of having to work harder than your opponent to win is a major detriment to your enjoyment, you should probably switch characters. :x

Characters with oppressive hitboxes are tough to fight. Characters with great mobility are tough to fight. Characters with low endlag tools that can use them while moving away from you (Meta Knight stutter-step F-Smash x_x) are tough to fight. Superior spacing is the key to victory, and that can be really difficult to manage consistently.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

As an aside, would anyone be able to get the frame data on Jigglypuff's airdodge? It seems to take longer to finish than almost every other airdodge at a glance, but knowing the invincibility on it could be very useful for knowing what moves we can "beat" with it.

 

[Jiggly]

As an aside, would anyone be able to get the frame data on Jigglypuff's airdodge? It seems to take longer to finish than almost every other airdodge at a glance, but knowing the invincibility on it could be very useful for knowing what moves we can "beat" with it.

the only way I get frame data is by going to training at 1/4 (press L) and swipe it slightly and it will go frame by frame if you do it quick enough. I may try to see if I can get a frame estimate.

 

[Lavani]

the only way I get frame data is by going to training at 1/4 (press L) and swipe it slightly and it will go frame by frame if you do it quick enough. I may try to see if I can get a frame estimate.

This isn't an accurate way to get frame data. The game accounts for the slowdown and adjusts its framerate accordingly, so you get quadruple the normal framecount.

 

[Jiggly]

This isn't an accurate way to get frame data. The game accounts for the slowdown and adjusts its framerate accordingly, so you get quadruple the normal framecount.

It took 3 times to get jigg's jab. Jab is frame 3. That's the only reason I thought it works, because I know Jab 1 is frame 3, not 12. Although I don't always do it right, which is why I don't want to try things higher than 4 frames. But how do most people get frame data?

 

[Lavani]

Back before I knew that myself I thought it worked since I'd gotten 22f for airdodge landings like that, and managed 11f for Palutena's jab. Problem being that Palutena's jab is actually 7f.

The ideal way of getting frame data would be to get a 60fps recording (ideally via capture card) and counting the frames.

 

[ZHMT]

I don't know the exact frame data for Jiggs' air dodge, bbut I do know air dodges as a whole are very dumb in this game beccause of their short duration. You can air dodge Falcons, ZSS, and Diddys up air and rest them for it guaranteed.

Also I think puff is in the middle of the pack, she's likely between 20th and 30th in the game atm, my opinion. No better than 15th but that's a stretch. Also I believe that the characters as a whole are more balanced in this game than Brawl.

I enjoy playing Puff and although most of her matchups are even or slight disadvantages vs the top 10, that definitely doesn't mean you can't do well with her. I play her because I want to stretch her meta and see where I can take her. If I wanted to win and that's all I would be playing Sheik or Diddy. If ANYONE that's smart purely wanted to win and that's all, they would be playing Sheik or Diddy.

I think and hope with some balance patches, Puff can make a high level of viability. They don't even have to change her directly to do so.

 

[Jiggly]

I think that if she was placed on an accurate tier list, she would be bottom on B or top of C, mor Bottom B imo

 

[Jay-kun]

Maybe u should play with aggression, then randomly play defensive, get them to whiff a non-retreating fair, then rest

 

[Desu~]

My weakness as a whole has always been that I feel like im always lacking in something, and that something would be knowledge and adaptation in my gameplay.
Someone told me this a while ago and it clicked for me; Because I have this incapacity of spacing and having solid reflexes I always have to rely on anticipation. I know that it's no good having to rely on it too much, and now I feel like Im reaching to a point where I feel that Im actually pretty much ignorant, that there is some stuff that I should have known first-hand before going head-on against a certain character.
I clearly don't have the brains to outsmart people or even the brains to figure out my poor options on the spot at this moment.

 

[ZeroJanitor]

So the new update for Smash 3DS rendered old replays unviewable meaning gameplay changes were made. I checked Jigglypuff, and it kinda feels like her air speed is slower, but I'm probably just imagining things.

 

[Funtroon]

OK, so I've been having a lot of trouble approaching campy and shield heavy players lately. I keep getting shield punished consistently, especially with my aerials. Aside from grabbing and Pound pressuring, how do I deal with such players?

Also, I'm having trouble against aggressive Yoshi players who constantly pressure me with his dairs, uairs, eggs and fairs. Any tips on handling the matchup?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You have to mix up the shield hit timings. Stick out N-Air/F-Air and hit late in the animation, hesitating a second...or don't hit at all. Use D-Air for the multi-hit and drift away early sometimes if you see that they shield it. The idea is to make it so that they can't just reflexively press Jump anytime their shield is touched; that will make them punish later or not at all.

Something we should experiment with more is fastfalling into a crouch, rather than a grab; the transition from landing to crouching is pretty quick and smooth, so pressuring characters like Falcon who can't grab us in that state but love to snatch us out of the air could probably get us Rest opportunities and generally strong punishes.

 

[Jiggly]

It may be good to dedicate a thread to Dair-rest and Uair-rest. We have talked about it here some, but it may be thread worthy. Also, I still don't know how to pull of Uair Rest xD

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You hit with U-Air just as you touch the ground; the landing lag is shorter than the normal endlag.