Janon social thread : Lair of the Floating Back Slapping Missile Reflecting King of Evil

[Yallo42]

Mario's grab range is not much better than ganon's. Marth only has CG on fast fallers, and that is with uthrow not dthrow. Sheik is the only character with good grab range and good dthrow chain grabs.
My opinion: ganon's dthrow makes up for his difficulty in getting a grab

 

[CORY]

my opinion: his dthrow keeps him from having a decent grab. having a bad grab is worse for him than the chaingrab helps him. and then, if it were just an amazing setup throw, it wouldn't be as bad, but since it chains a large portion of the cast, it's just into bad design territory. they could give him a lower and slightly further grab (like, a little past what it was in... 3.0? i think 3.5 was when it was pulled in "to match melee" leading to more random ass grabs and even less range...), then do "something" to dthrow to make it not as chainable, or at least push the chain throw ranges into a much tighter range. i don't know what they could do, though, since there's things ranging all the way from an entirely new animation to just tweaking bkb, kbg, grab and release points.

and while mario might not have much longer grab range than ganon, he's a much more mobile character with a projectile he can use on approach to force shields (or a reaction he can attempt to punish into a grab), as well as being low enough to not just be "ducked" by the end animation of random attacks. on the other hand, while he still has dumb chain throws (and it's also a great setup throw) it's still not as bad as ganon's ;x it mostly works, but could probably stand to have the chain-iness tweaked out some.

does shiek actually still have chainthrows, outside of odd matchups like bowser/ddd? i thought it was just d/bthrow mixups and you can maybe grab again, if it's the right character and they di wrong? her grab game is still pretty strong, but i don't think it revolves around (mostly) guaranteed chaingrabs anymore...

i can't think of any other character that has an actual chain throw now on a large portion of the cast, like ganon's. they're all typically just fastfaller punish stuff and/or at specific ranges.

there are characters with great combo throws (like ness) that don't really set up for chains which means it can be done, in theory.

 

[Doctor Aids]

Mario's dthrow was pretty dumb on a lot of the cast, though I don't know how much it's changed in 3.6f.

It wasn't quite as dumb, but he could set up for grabs a lot easier than ganon, due to fireballs and overall better mobility.

And it still works really well to set up killmove fair's at the important percents, a lot : /

Mario's grab range is actually trash though, so I'm not sure this is the best example. His vertical range is decent since he's sorta small but his horizontal range is the same as if not worse than Ganon's.
EDIT: Whoops someone already said this

 

[CORY]

yeah, but if you have mobility and/or ways to force shields, a small grab range is somewhat mitigated, leaving the range more important in oos options. mario's faster than ganon and has a projectile that he can use to make you (at least think about) shield, to set up for the grabs better. it's a lot of why falcon's grab seems really good, when it's just ganon's, but lower to the ground. if you can cover space quickly, raw grab range is less important outside of oos situations, so you can keep that threat up much more easily.

he also doesn't have michael jordan half court dunk from space jam arms but refuse to extend them in any way whatsoever, like ganon ;x

 

[Doctor Aids]

yeah, but if you have mobility and/or ways to force shields, a small grab range is somewhat mitigated, leaving the range more important in oos options. mario's faster than ganon and has a projectile that he can use to make you (at least think about) shield, to set up for the grabs better. it's a lot of why falcon's grab seems really good, when it's just ganon's, but lower to the ground. if you can cover space quickly, raw grab range is less important outside of oos situations, so you can keep that threat up much more easily.

he also doesn't have michael jordan half court dunk from space jam arms but refuse to extend them in any way whatsoever, like ganon ;x

Yup, Mario's grab seems better because it's on a character with better attributes. I agree that Ganon needs a better grab range I was just pointing out that the other character with chaingrabs has a bad grab range too.

 

[GunBuster]

the same sized grabbox on a smaller character is effectively better than Ganondorf's "small and awkwardly placed" one though.

 

[Yallo42]

On second thought, maybe buffed grab and nerfed dthrow would be better. The grab box really should be lower, more range would improve ganon's bad OoS options, and it would be nice if there was a reason to use throws other than down throw.

 

[CORY]

yeah. fthrow has a few mixup uses and uthrow can be good for positioning or setting up stuff on fastfallers, but overall, you're almost always better served with dthrow-[thing].

i wonder how much an angle change would help? right now it's 80degrees, right? what if it were set lower, like around 70? would that affect the chain throw setups at all? if so (in a positive way) could it become a di mixup with bthrow, giving them the same angle and similar animation lengths, bkb/kbg, etc...?

Bazkip you were thinking of ways to adjust dthrow at some point, right? thoughts?

 

[Doctor Aids]

yeah. fthrow has a few mixup uses and uthrow can be good for positioning or setting up stuff on fastfallers, but overall, you're almost always better served with dthrow-[thing].

i wonder how much an angle change would help? right now it's 80degrees, right? what if it were set lower, like around 70? would that affect the chain throw setups at all? if so (in a positive way) could it become a di mixup with bthrow, giving them the same angle and similar animation lengths, bkb/kbg, etc...?

Bazkip you were thinking of ways to adjust dthrow at some point, right? thoughts?

I've thought of changing the the angle of dthrow to launch further in front of Ganon and then make bthrow a DI mix up with it. I tested it out with some friends and everyone seemed to think it was a decent change. But then when I suggested it to PMDT members they said it felt too "sheiky". I guess it's probably better to rework dthrow in a way such that it's not a dthrow/bthrow mix up since it seems that the PMDT doesn't like the idea of having another dthrow/bthrow DI trap.

After that idea was rejected I thought of maybe just giving it more BKB so that most characters go too high to be regrabbed, except fast fallers, which would give us really nice chaingrabs on the spacies and Falcon, but no regrabs on most of the cast. Then just compensate the KBK so that we don't lose too many follow ups at high percents. I have yet to test this method though, but I would be alright with this rework if we get some significant buffs in return.

 

[Yallo42]

Up throw could be a KO move. Back throw could be a tech chase I guess, if not a DI mixup.

 

[Sl4ntTheRed27]

In all honesty, d-throw for Ganon is so unreliable most of the time. There's not much you can do out of down throw that'll actually allow you to get any series of damage off. I guess since I'm more of an aggro Ganon, I really like being able to do air combos, and up throw into a series of up airs and then side air is just too beautiful to resist, especially on FD and Smashville where the threat of platforms isn't a threat (too often).

With that aside, I do think that we need a longer hitbox for his grab that extends lower because trying to grab rogue Kirby and Squirtle is ****ing impossible. I can only down tilt to dash attack so many times before they tech roll out of it.

 

[CORY]

In all honesty, d-throw for Ganon is so unreliable most of the time. There's not much you can do out of down throw that'll actually allow you to get any series of damage off.

Wut. It's really reliable except on low damage fast fallers and high damage floaties ;x

Aggro or not, you grab and can dthrow-almost any aerial on most of the cast. A lot of the times that you can't, you can just regrab.

On low damage fastfallers uthrow is better for both chain throws and combos. Otherwise you tend to get better followups from dthrow-[thing].

 

[GunBuster]

In all honesty, d-throw for Ganon is so unreliable most of the time.

do you... you know, play ganon at all?

damn, CORY beat me to it.

 

[Sl4ntTheRed27]

do you... you know, play ganon at all?

damn, CORY beat me to it.

Ummm, ow, you could've definitely been less rude. Allow me to defend myself.

Having options out of a shield with Ganon is literally one of the most important things about playing Ganon, period. You cannot have a viable Ganon if you can't protect yourself and exploit people's weaknesses. Ganon has to be a degree of aggro to do so and therefore has four viable options presented to him: grab into up throw, grab into down throw, dash attack, and down tilt. The latter two, for me, are primarily to set your opponent back and allow you to approach aggressively, which is honestly a huge plus. Grab into upthrow is incredible for launching into a solid 50-60 damage + finish (if you do it right) combo. That;s really important, because Gannon, in PM, Brawl, and 4, DOES need to be as ahead as possible, because when we screw up, its really costly if we're behind or even, because catching up is a struggle, even if you're a good Ganon player. Grabbing into down throw is the least viable of these options, especially at low percentages because any decent player, especially since this is M, is typically low enough to tech roll out of the grab and making it a lot harder for any Ganon to get anything off. It also gives them the ability to approach now, and forces you onto the defensive. I'm really puzzled beacuse in all honesty, with how tight of hitbox Ganon has for his grab, its really unlikely that you'd ACTUALLY get the re-grab in the case that they don't tech roll out of it. So honestly yeah, I absolutely hate down throw. I'd much rather up throw into up air or forward into Ganon kick or dash attack. Even at high precentages, down throw is really lazy because at that point, you're not going to get any room to approach your opponent well enough to actually get a grab, so its not like its going to help you. Any respectable Smash player is going to be trying to stop you from getting anything off, so your best bet is to just play it safe and try to knock off any unwanted aggression/over protection with neutral airs and dash attacks. They're certainly not going to give you the opportunity to grab. Even then, I'd rather up throw into forward air, fast falling or not.

 

[CORY]

who are you not regrabbing or even getting any followup out of? there are a few cases where you get nothing out of dthrow other than a tech chase setup (namely, low percent fast fallers), but against most of the cast, you can at the very least dthrow and instant sh-uair/nair and continue from there.

like, ganon's dthrow is literally one of the best throws in the game. it's just attached to a slow character with **** grab range so it almost looks fair.

 

[Spralwers]

So I went to Nebulous in NYC over the weekend and was beating up both Gallo and Narqs' Lucases. Don't know if I mentioned this before, I also beat Hyperflame's Lucas in pools with Ganon when I went down to Xanadu in late august. I'm like literally not afraid of that character whatsoever and this could turn out to be one of the few MUs that Ganon has some sort of advantage in. Neutral's a piece of cake, the punishes are easy, and the edgeguards are free. Might be a playstyle thing but my Marth was actually struggling a lot more than my Ganon. I'll write some MU thoughts eventually but just wanted to throw that out there for the time being

 

[Doctor Aids]

So I went to Nebulous in NYC over the weekend and was beating up both Gallo and Narqs' Lucases. Don't know if I mentioned this before, I also beat Hyperflame's Lucas in pools with Ganon when I went down to Xanadu in late august. I'm like literally not afraid of that character whatsoever and this could turn out to be one of the few MUs that Ganon has some sort of advantage in. Neutral's a piece of cake, the punishes are easy, and the edgeguards are free. Might be a playstyle thing but my Marth was actually struggling a lot more than my Ganon. I'll write some MU thoughts eventually but just wanted to throw that out there for the time being

BRUH I wish I knew you were going to Nebs I would have made the effort to get out there. I've played Narq's Lucas with my Ganon once, I was extremely out of practice though and I still almost won. At my local I've consistently beat our Lucas player Ant (4 stocked him this week), he's alright, probably just a little worse than Narq but Narq said he's scared of him. Overall I think I can agree with Lucas being a pretty decent MU for us. He has a really tough time dealing with our range. Once he's pressuring you it's a nightmare, but it's pretty ez to avoid it by spacing properly. Punish game is probably a non-factor since both characters should 0-death each other, ours is just a bit easier.

 

[Sl4ntTheRed27]

who are you not regrabbing or even getting any followup out of? there are a few cases where you get nothing out of dthrow other than a tech chase setup (namely, low percent fast fallers), but against most of the cast, you can at the very least dthrow and instant sh-uair/nair and continue from there.

like, ganon's dthrow is literally one of the best throws in the game. it's just attached to a slow character with **** grab range so it almost looks fair.

Literally anybody above 60% and anybody who rolls out of it onto a platfrom. On most stages, especially in small stages that have low platforms (Which is like half of the viable stages). Once you grab, I agree that its good its just that not on him in most situations

 

[CORY]

Literally anybody above 60 is pretty much dead wrong. A huge portion of the cast just has to decide whether they prefer for you to fair or bair them out of dthrow as you get near kill percent, which even as ganon isn't at 60.

Platforms can be an issue, I'll grant that, but so can just throwing them high enough in the air that you can't reliably get followups from the throw.

 

[Sl4ntTheRed27]

Ah yeah I suppose with the follow up its pretty solid, but certainly not regrabbable often enough

 

[CORY]

Dthrow isn't regrabbable often enough?

 

[GunBuster]

Ah yeah I suppose with the follow up its pretty solid, but certainly not regrabbable often enough

M8.

I'll admit that I wasn't even aware of Ganon's chaingrab, and under-utilized the reliability of following up the Downthrow until I saw Baz post the Melee version of it earlier in this thread.

now I wonder how I ever managed without it. without low lying platforms in the equation, the regrab is practially guaranteed against a large majority of characters, though I concede it may require some slight re-positioning.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Would still prefer a good grab to a good down throw. As good as those set ups are a reliable grab that has decent range for the length of his arms and can grab low/short enemies is by far more useful then any chain grab.

They could worsen the down throw so the chain grab ends much quicker at lower % to still retain some form of a chain grab and follow ups do be somewhat harder to get (not impossible mind you) but he gets a good grab range (Ike range I think is good) that actually WONT miss an opponent cause Ganon is taller than they are...

His grab is just badly designed, period.
A slow character with crap out of shield option and he gets the worse grab in the game!?!? Where is the logic?...
How about characters with great oos options get a ****ty grab instead? As they can rely on those options to help with shield pressure.

With all the balancing PMDT do and how they try and prefect the game I just don't understand this absolute failure of a design choice that began in Melee due to Ganon being a clone thus sharing the grab animation and range from Falcon, but is yet to be fixed in PM. Why?

Speaking about animations;
Can we get original animations for all his moves now? After 3.5 where he got a slew of brand new unique animations I hope they do that to all his still present copied animations like;
- air dodge (it's exactly like Falcon's. also why no darkness effect like on ground dodges? It's just isn't consistent and looks "off")
- get up attacks (exactly like Falcon's)
- Up B grab and after grab release jump (exactly like Falcon's)
- Down smash (too similar to falcon)
- up smash (still too similar to Falcon)
- Nair (still to similar to falcon)
- all his throws (like falcon's)
- losing animation: yes I know "why are you complaining about that" well because I feel like it! .
Seriously though why would Ganon clap? And the animation is still virtually looks the same like the way Falcon is clapping in his losing animation.

All his other moves got a revamp in animation (I think I covered all the ones that didn't) but the ones I listed stick out like a sore thumb to me still. They could spice 'Em up with more darkness and electricity effects and tweak the animation like they did with Bair; very subtle but yet still evident changes to the animations resulting in unique looking moves. Honestly the animators did an exellent job on the new animations I hope they push it further in future versions.
I just don't want to see/think of Falcon while playing Ganondorf like ever! Lol.

 

[GunBuster]

Would still prefer a good grab to a good down throw.

It's not something I'd be against. I like my downthrow options, but having terrible OOS options is not really worth it IMO.

With all the balancing PMDT do and how they try and prefect the game I just don't understand this absolute failure of a design choice that began in Melee

"slower, stronger captain falcon" is something I'm beginning to see as an inherently flawed design. I am also getting sick of many of his changes that consist of "rolled back to match melee", where he still middles at best. an extreme part of me wants to see them re-invent him while keeping what works on him currently. a more reasonable part of me would like to see what would happen if he used his sword for his Fsmash or he actually stretched his arm out full length during his current Fsmash, instead of keeping it slightly bent to keep it's range the same as his old Elbow Fsmash.

I also get sick of seeing the old Warlock punch graphics freak out if he's interrupted during his current Fsmash, but that's another issue entirely.

Speaking about animations;
Can we get original animations for all his moves now? After 3.5 where he got a slew of brand new unique animations I hope they do that to all his still present copied animations like;
- air dodge (it's exactly like Falcon's. also why no darkness effect like on ground dodges? It's just isn't consistent and looks "off")
- get up attacks (exactly like Falcon's)
- Up B grab and after grab release jump (exactly like Falcon's)
- Down smash (too similar to falcon)
- up smash (still too similar to Falcon)
- Nair (still to similar to falcon)
- all his throws (like falcon's)
- losing animation: yes I know "why are you complaining about that" well because I feel like it! .
Seriously though why would Ganon clap? And the animation is still virtually looks the same like the way Falcon is clapping in his losing animation.

you are factually wrong about a number of these. and he claps because he's a classy guy who respects a strong opponent.

 

[Bazkip]

Personally, I think it'd be best for the chaingrab to eliminated entirely. Chaingrabbing huge portions of the cast is just...silly. It's not really enjoyable for either party. Having a throw that just sets up for followups would be completely fine, that's still very strong. The question then is if it's possible to tweak dthrow to remove the chaingrabs without negatively impact the ability to follow up. I believe this may be possible but I don't know for certain. If it turns out it's not then the chaingrab will have to remain in some capacity.

 

[Spralwers]

BRUH I wish I knew you were going to Nebs I would have made the effort to get out there.

Me and a couple of other New Englanders are coming next week.

Yeah vs Lucas, I think it's a collective matter of him:
-Not having enough speed + range to effectively punish Ganon's whiffed, space controlling hitboxes in neutral, compared to the other DD heavy characters that give Ganon trouble.
-His projectile being useless. If he's close enough to follow up with it, Ganon can just wizkick on reaction and hit him. If Lucas spaces himself to not get wizkicked, well he's too far away to follow up and Ganon has all day to choose ez anti projectile options (clanking, shielding, caping, jumping over)
-Bad OoS options, so when Lucas does inevitably get pinned down, there's not much he can do.

Regarding dthrow, the cg exists, except gainst super floaties like samus and zelda. Marth you can cg till about 25-30%, semi floaties like Link you can do it till around 40-50%, semi ffs like MK, Roy, and Lucas you can cg well past 50, and fast fallers like Fox you use uthrow. If you didn't know about it, you either haven't labbed Ganon's throw punishes or you haven't watched footage of good Ganons, it's been a bnb for him for quite some time, 3.02 at the latest. It's good in melee too, just harder to execute.

I would eliminate the cg as well but still give him his follow ups. I think increasing the BKB but lowering the KBG would accomplish that.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

It's not something I'd be against. I like my downthrow options, but having terrible OOS options is not really worth it IMO.



"slower, stronger captain falcon" is something I'm beginning to see as an inherently flawed design. I am also getting sick of many of his changes that consist of "rolled back to match melee", where he still middles at best. an extreme part of me wants to see them re-invent him while keeping what works on him currently. a more reasonable part of me would like to see what would happen if he used his sword for his Fsmash or he actually stretched his arm out full length during his current Fsmash, instead of keeping it slightly bent to keep it's range the same as his old Elbow Fsmash.

I also get sick of seeing the old Warlock punch graphics freak out if he's interrupted during his current Fsmash, but that's another issue entirely.



you are factually wrong about a number of these. and he claps because he's a classy guy who respects a strong opponent.

On which animations I'm wrong about? Last time I checked the ones I listed are still either exactly like Falcon or a so similar it's barely distinguishable (honestly I'm no joking all the animations I listed are pretty much the same as Falcon's)
Also as a long time Ganondorf fan he just wouldn't clap for getting beat. Never once I got that from his character. I see him more corps sing his arms at discontent, and just like Mewtwo's losing animation not clapping for his foes victory.

 

[Doctor Aids]

Me and a couple of other New Englanders are coming next week.

Yeah vs Lucas, I think it's a collective matter of him:
-Not having enough speed + range to effectively punish Ganon's whiffed, space controlling hitboxes in neutral, compared to the other DD heavy characters that give Ganon trouble.
-His projectile being useless. If he's close enough to follow up with it, Ganon can just wizkick on reaction and hit him. If Lucas spaces himself to not get wizkicked, well he's too far away to follow up and Ganon has all day to choose ez anti projectile options (clanking, shielding, caping, jumping over)
-Bad OoS options, so when Lucas does inevitably get pinned down, there's not much he can do.

Regarding dthrow, the cg exists, except gainst super floaties like samus and zelda. Marth you can cg till about 25-30%, semi floaties like Link you can do it till around 40-50%, semi ffs like MK, Roy, and Lucas you can cg well past 50, and fast fallers like Fox you use uthrow. If you didn't know about it, you either haven't labbed Ganon's throw punishes or you haven't watched footage of good Ganons, it's been a bnb for him for quite some time, 3.02 at the latest. It's good in melee too, just harder to execute.

I would eliminate the cg as well but still give him his follow ups. I think increasing the BKB but lowering the KBG would accomplish that.

Are you going with them to the HSS Extravaganza as well? I know Poob, Sora, Twisty and SES are all coming to it. This tournament is actually the local that I'm a TO at. It would be really cool if you could make it since I haven't had the chance to play with a Ganon that's better than me in like, ever, except June but that was in teams.

 

[Spralwers]

Are you going with them to the HSS Extravaganza as well? I know Poob, Sora, Twisty and SES are all coming to it. This tournament is actually the local that I'm a TO at. It would be really cool if you could make it since I haven't had the chance to play with a Ganon that's better than me in like, ever, except June but that was in teams.

Yup. I'm driving the carpool actually.

 

[Doctor Aids]

Yup. I'm driving the carpool actually.

Awesome, we'll have to play some friendlies if we don't meet in bracket then.

On an unrelated note, June just released his tier list over on reddit, he said Ganon was mid tier, "the middle of the mid". What do you guys think of this placement? Here's the tier list if anyone wants to see who he placed Ganon above.

 

[Bazkip]

Happy birthday Spralwers , may good reads, stomps, and ez money come your way

 

[Spralwers]

Yo thanks Bazkip

Doctor Aids Middle of mid to low mid is perfect I think. If the stage list was overall smaller he could reasonably fit in the high or high-mid tier, but currently the stagelist is too beneficial for the faster characters. There are very few characters that hard counter him regardless of stage.

 

[HiroProtagonist]

Getting back into PM and Ganondorf specifically, after dalliances with Falcon, Sheik, and ZSS. Have been playing a lot of Melee with extremely good players lately and my Ganondorf is so so so so much better. Jesus. Feel so much better about myself as a player. Melee smarts are for real.

Was back home in Richmond and decided to go to the weekly at the local college. Placed 4th out of around 20 in PM, losing 2-1 to Milkman (I TOOK A GAME OFF MILKMAN'S FOX WITH GANON IN BRACKET LIKE HOLY) and 2-1 to Kratos (super respectable SoVa Sheik main, he told me he placed either top 32 or 64 at Big House PM). Taking a game off Milkman was amazingly satisfying- the entire venue erupted when I ended game 2 with a dunk. I felt totally overwhelmed in neutral but I kept calm and was proud of how I played. I'm still mentally weak in the Sheik matchup, but a game win over Kratos and a bracket win over someone who historically bodied me has made me more optimistic about my skill at it.

Really excited to get back into Ganon honestly. Had some top RVA people watching me warm up the other day; they were all wowed by my tech skill and let me know as much. Had some people in bracket tell me how much smarter I was playing. I honestly think I could place in the money at these locals in the near future (3rd is extremely reachable under 1. Milkman and 2 Reslived) if I'm able to stay in a good mindset.

It feels good to be back, boys.

 

[HiroProtagonist]

Mario is one example already mentioned, also Marth and Shiek have good chain grabs. And other characters have much better mobility/faster allowing for better tech chases after throws than Ganon but unlike him actually have decent to good grab ranges that don't mess you over if the character your trying to grab is too short or crouching...

Either way I will take a range that actually fits Ganon's arms length like most of the cast who actually reach to grab the other character and one that isn't so bad it can't grab short/crouching enemies over a long chain grab down throw. A actually decent grab will also allow for Ganon to deal shield pressure better.

Isn't Mario's grab range shorter than Ganon's? Marth's chaingrabs are nowhere near as punishing as Ganon's, and both his and Sheik's can be DI'd out of in the vast majority of cases. That said, his grab hitbox really should be extended vertically... Lost the set to Kratos because his up-B lag ducked under my grab.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Isn't Mario's grab range shorter than Ganon's? Marth's chaingrabs are nowhere near as punishing as Ganon's, and both his and Sheik's can be DI'd out of in the vast majority of cases. That said, his grab hitbox really should be extended vertically... Lost the set to Kratos because his up-B lag ducked under my grab.

Yeah Mario's grab is shorter but compared to his overall size and also his speed as a character it doesn't matter much. And yeah Marth's and Sheik's chain grabs aren't as good. But I would prefer Ganon have a chain grab of Marth's or Sheik's caliber while having a grab that is like Marth's or Sheik's also.

Just my opinion, I know others agree with it too.
As I said in one of my prior posts I just think a tiny "T-Rex arm" grab range on a character with huge limbs that misses crouching/short opponents because his chain grab is super good is just bad design. Especially on a character that is slow and big with bad oos options. Only reason he has that short of a grab range is "cause Melee" but it's just poor design.
If Ganon never appeared in smash no one would design his grab that way (or his entire moveset but that's besides the point) and a good game designer will not give him such a good chain grab as it's just too good on most of the cast and really isn't hard to pull off *once you grabbed*.

A better design choice would be an easy to get grab with good range and a hard chain grab to execute. But instead we have the opposite...

 

[HiroProtagonist]

Yeah Mario's grab is shorter but compared to his overall size and also his speed as a character it doesn't matter much. And yeah Marth's and Sheik's chain grabs aren't as good. But I would prefer Ganon have a chain grab of Marth's or Sheik's caliber while having a grab that is like Marth's or Sheik's also.

Just my opinion, I know others agree with it too.
As I said in one of my prior posts I just think a tiny "T-Rex arm" grab range on a character with huge limbs that misses crouching/short opponents because his chain grab is super good is just bad design. Especially on a character that is slow and big with bad oos options. Only reason he has that short of a grab range is "cause Melee" but it's just poor design.
If Ganon never appeared in smash no one would design his grab that way (or his entire moveset but that's besides the point) and a good game designer will not give him such a good chain grab as it's just too good on most of the cast and really isn't hard to pull off *once you grabbed*.

A better design choice would be an easy to get grab with good range and a hard chain grab to execute. But instead we have the opposite...

Absolutely 0 argument from me that Ganon's grab is poor design. Incredibly skewed option that is super uninteractive for the player getting chaingrabbed.

 

[Spralwers]

(3rd is extremely reachable under 1. Milkman and 2 Reslived) if I'm able to stay in a good mindset.

I'll write about the Ness MU, probably this weekend. I understand it pretty well and can play it well, and it's definitely a MU where you need the specific MU knowledge to beat a good Ness, esp as Ganondorf. This is one of those times in PM where melee fundamentals and melee intuition can hold you back. You can definitely win, just might take a set or two to adjust and learn how to apply theory into practice before winning a set.

Edit: I missed your MU post. Looks like you're all set. I'll add to the discussion anyway lol

 

[Yallo42]

I'm sure someone has mentioned this already(don't feel like going through 50 pages), but why is ganon spelled janon in the title of this thread?

 

[Bazkip]

I'm sure someone has mentioned this already(don't feel like going through 50 pages), but why is ganon spelled janon in the title of this thread?

Because French people are weird.

 

[HiroProtagonist]

ayyy lmao

http://gfycat.com/InstructiveFirsthandJapanesebeetle

will be making an actual post about this in a bit when I test percents and such