Janon social thread : Lair of the Floating Back Slapping Missile Reflecting King of Evil

[FlashingFire]

As a Snake main, I'm pretty sure the reason that he got his "peculiar" grab change was because hitting an opponent with tranq put him in a position where he could grab sleeping opponents pretty often, and in 3.5 doing so would miss certain characters like Fox, Mario and Kirby.

The Nair change is a bit odd, but I like bazkip's explanation. The better cape is certainly nice, and I can imagine floating cape advances becoming a more viable option in projectile-heavy MUs. That'd be swag against Link in particular.

 

[Bazkip]

As a Snake main, I'm pretty sure the reason that he got his "peculiar" grab change was because hitting an opponent with tranq put him in a position where he could grab sleeping opponents pretty often, and in 3.5 doing so would miss certain characters like Fox, Mario and Kirby.

There's several situations with Ganon being unable to grab opponents doing unsafe things that would get grabbed against anyone else simply due to the ending/landing animation being somewhat low. Not as common as the situation you described with Snake, but still not something I think should happen.

On another note, are we gonna make new threads for videos and matchup discussion since not a ton changed? Probably should still.

 

[CORY]

in terms of matchups, other characters have changed around ganon, even if he just got a couple minor adjustments. that should probably change over.

videos, i'm not sure. ganon himself seems to play the same basic game plan, but a lot of the advice given for 3.5 matchups might not be applicable, if someone goes and looks through the thread. maybe not, but my opinion could be changed on that.

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, but those chars give everyone trouble, I believe. For instance, when chars like Sheik and Kirby land, they are ungrabbable by many, such as Ganon and Zelda, because they crouch very low. Sheik, in particular, is very annoying because she also crouches low during her upB landing lag, which can throw some people off.

In the case of pinned threads, I think we should just keep them, re-title them for 3.6, and then add a note into their OPs stating that any post before a certain date referred to 3.5 (or an earlier version) and not 3.6. There is still a lot of useful old information that applies now. Making new threads would cause some of them to be lost, plus it would take time for them to be pinned again.

 

[FlashingFire]

Yeah, but those chars give everyone trouble, I believe. For instance, when chars like Sheik and Kirby land, they are ungrabbable by many, such as Ganon and Zelda, because they crouch very low. Sheik, in particular, is very annoying because she also crouches low during her upB landing lag, which can throw some people off.

Precisely. When Kirby scrunches down during the landing lag of some of his aerials, it can duck shieldgrabs that would otherwise work in terms of timing. Sheik's low Up-B landing isn't a huge deal though, seeing as there's still enough lag to take advantage of it with Dair or something.

 

[Bazkip]

Yeah, but those chars give everyone trouble, I believe. For instance, when chars like Sheik and Kirby land, they are ungrabbable by many, such as Ganon and Zelda, because they crouch very low. Sheik, in particular, is very annoying because she also crouches low during her upB landing lag, which can throw some people off.

Precisely. When Kirby scrunches down during the landing lag of some of his aerials, it can duck shieldgrabs that would otherwise work in terms of timing. Sheik's low Up-B landing isn't a huge deal though, seeing as there's still enough lag to take advantage of it with Dair or something.

I'm not talking about characters who are well known to duck under things. I've seen/have whiffed grabs against the landing of Ike and Wolf's recovery moves, there's likely more recovery moves that will result in the same. I don't know for certain but I'd be surprised if the rest of the cast failed to grab these. I also know for a fact that the entire cast can shieldgrab Mario's dash attack, except for Ganon.

There's no way you can look at these two and tell me "Yeah that's fine".

 

[mattphillyphan]

I'm not talking about characters who are well known to duck under things. I've seen/have whiffed grabs against the landing of Ike and Wolf's recovery moves, there's likely more recovery moves that will result in the same. I don't know for certain but I'd be surprised if the rest of the cast failed to grab these. I also know for a fact that the entire cast can shieldgrab Mario's dash attack, except for Ganon.

There's no way you can look at these two and tell me "Yeah that's fine".

YESSS. Mario Dash attack, and Luigi side b are ungrabable, REALLY annoying. Also, I think Wario might be ungrabable, but still, yeesh.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Video and match-up threads have been updated for 3.6. Sorry about the wait.

Let's get discussing.

EDIT: Also, yeah. Tons of stuff goes under Ganon's grab for no good reason. Sheik/Spacies landing with their recoveries especially frustrates me. I would love for a change like Snake got.

 

[Bazkip]

I found a thing

When will the nerfs end??????

 

[CORY]

I'm guessing you put this into the bug report forum?

 

[Bazkip]

I'm guessing you put this into the bug report forum?

It's actually not a new bug and not specific to flame choke, it's a glitch with meteor cancelling for multijump characters. My friend didn't tell me he was jumping first and I didn't notice, so I assumed it was different.

 

[CORY]

ah, ok, then.

so, a troll/salt thread in our social fb group reminded me that i need to recheck all my flamechoke data, in case the throw release stuff changed anything...

 

[Bazkip]

I finally see why they didn't buff Ganon's grab range

 

[bubbaking]

Why does this happen?

 

[Sol0ke]

So guys, I've got back into the PM scene (I quit Smash 4) and decided to use Ganon and MK in this game.

Sup.

 

[CORY]

welcome.
here's your required reading.
http://smashboards.com/threads/options-out-of-flamechoke.410072/#post-19645255

 

[Bazkip]

TIL grab misses Snake when he's planting a mine

uggghhhhhhh

 

[Electric Tuba]

Found out today that grab also misses yoshi during the start up of his up tilt.

 

[Yallo42]

I found a thing

When will the nerfs end??????

R.I.P grounded flame choke. Please tell me PMDT will fix this

 

[Bazkip]

R.I.P grounded flame choke. Please tell me PMDT will fix this

Yeah it's a bug that effects meteor cancel with multijump characters which is pretty significant, should be fixed when we get the finished 3.6.

 

[Bazkip]

Yooooo shoutouts to @MerzA for the godlike losers run to place top 8 at a stacked IaB.
Who'd Umbreon play against you? If he lost as Sheik my sides will be launched into orbit.

 

[Bazkip]

Yooooo shoutouts to @MerzA for the godlike losers run to place top 8 at a stacked IaB.
Who'd Umbreon play against you? If he lost as Sheik my sides will be launched into orbit.

Oh apparently Umbreon dropped out after losing to Odds, oh well.

But anywho @MerzA is what you said about the reason for the 3.6 nair change being that it's 3.5 iteration was unintentional actually true? wtf.

 

[Bazkip]

So the full 3.6 is here. ROB gets a useful SideB back. Sheik gets useful throws back. DDD gets useful dair back.

Where's our nair? ;_;

 

[CORY]

clearly too much to handle.

 

[Yallo42]

I still use nair a lot. I think it's still good. Maybe they nerfed it so it won't be as useful for hitting projectiles, since now he has the cape reflect.
I'm so glad they gave Rob his side B back.
Sadly, It seems Lucario and Yoshi are still bad though

 

[Bazkip]

I still use nair a lot. I think it's still good. Maybe they nerfed it so it won't be as useful for hitting projectiles, since now he has the cape reflect.
I'm so glad they gave Rob his side B back.
Sadly, It seems Lucario and Yoshi are still bad though

Lucario

bad

Dude what

 

[Yallo42]

Dude what

Are you trying to say that in 3.5 lucario was OP, but pretty much no one used him anyway? And in 3.6 he got a ton of big nerfs, and he's still good?
dude what?

 

[Narelex]

Are you trying to say that in 3.5 lucario was OP, but pretty much no one used him anyway? And in 3.6 he got a ton of big nerfs, and he's still good?
dude what?

Lucario's entire combo structure hasn't been touched. They only got rid of a few of his outlying traits that were deemed a bit excessive. IPK wouldn't be doing so well if the character was "bad". He can still zero to death quite often when played well or rack up huge damage off his combo's.

 

[GunBuster]

I still use nair a lot. I think it's still good. Maybe they nerfed it so it won't be as useful for hitting projectiles, since now he has the cape reflect.

i miss the nair for projectiles in the air.

cape reflect still feels a bit jank to use in midair.

 

[CORY]

Nair was also a good walling move pre 3.6. Now it's really just usable at low to mid damages to dthrow Nair for both hits : /

 

[GunBuster]

am I the only one who has difficulty finding use for his Fsmash? as much as I like that punch, I feel the move just doesn't get opportunity and is outclassed by a lot of his other moves.

if i'm doing it wrong, when should I be using it? please help.

 

[CORY]

It's actually a really powerful vertical ko move. Like surprisingly strong. You can do wonky stuff like dthrow chain Roy to 60 or 70 and read hisbdi to dsmash and kill.

It's not an all the time attack by any means, but using against non-ffers at higher percentage as a mixup has use. You can also ( I think....) gfc-jab reset with slap-fsmash, guaranteed but tight timing (I might be misremembering this, tbh...)

 

[Yallo42]

am I the only one who has difficulty finding use for his Fsmash? as much as I like that punch, I feel the move just doesn't get opportunity and is outclassed by a lot of his other moves.

if i'm doing it wrong, when should I be using it? please help.

It has very limited use. Like Cory said, you can jab reset (with cape) into f smash.

Full Hop Nair onto platform is still good. It auto cancels, so it's really safe and good for platform tech chasing. I still use Nair to mix up my approach and it has worked well for me. You just can't spam it anymore. Though it would be nice if it had one or two more frames, I think six frames was too much.

 

[Bazkip]

Yeah fsmash has always felt very meh to me. Only up angled fsmash kills earlier than upsmash, and not even by much. Just went and did some testing.

Ganon ceiling kill percent on a character standing on the side platform of Yoshi's Story, no DI. Smash attacks are uncharged. Damage listed is prior to being hit.

Jigglypuff:
Upsmash (first hit, 90°): 42%
Fsmash (neutral): 46%
Fsmash (up): 38%
Dair: 48%

Mario:
Upsmash (first hit, 90°): 65%
Fsmash (neutral): 69%
Fsmash (up): 59%
Dair: 73%

Other than slightly earlier kills, fsmash also has the small advantage of being active 2 frames earlier. Meanwhile upsmash has way less endlag (15 frames vs 35) and is far more versatile due to the existence of DACUS and it's ability to rack up huge damage + combo at low percents.
In the few scenarios where it is guaranteed at high percents it is a better option but...idk just seems almost pointless as a move.

 

[Yallo42]

What if Fsmash had an optional second hit, like Link's?

 

[Bazkip]

What if Fsmash had an optional second hit, like Link's?

With a sword swing like the Warlock Punch in that Sword Ganon mod? Yooooo I'd be so down.

 

[Yallo42]

With a sword swing like the Warlock Punch in that Sword Ganon mod? Yooooo I'd be so down.

lol yeah that was exactly what I was thinking!

 

[GunBuster]

Well, I've always wondered how much ganon's game would shift if the PMDT decided to take his beamsword Fsmash, slap his actual sword on it instead and make it his new Fsmash, just acting like Ness' s bat where it only appears for that attack. Lord knows he could benefit from the range increase.

 

[CORY]

So, really goofy random idea: add 1 or 2 frames of hitbox to kick one if Nair, remove kick two entirely, let the end lag just be the normal nding of kick one, minus the startup of kick2.

Make lcancelled landing lag come out to, like, -2 or something (or maybe a bit more, u dunno, this isn't a well thought out ideaidea).

Now you can Nair once on a short hop, shirt hop double Nair, or short hop single Nair hair, or whatever other goofy things you can think of.

#badideas

 

[Squints~.~]

CORY, would this work like different jab attacks? I kind of like that idea... being able to nair once for a single kick with extra frames of hitbox would give us something to quickly deal with a projectile. Nair twice to throw out both kicks for an approach/wall? I could support that!