Janon social thread : Lair of the Floating Back Slapping Missile Reflecting King of Evil

[teluoborg]

Welcome to Ganondorf's new social thread, where your one and only dream come true : you are now able to nonchalantly back slap that ***** Link's wimpy light arrow right back to his face while casually floating around, thinking of dominating the world and stuff.

A whole new world opens before you.

[collapse=may 2nd op]

Here are what those boards are missing : a place to discuss how flame choke is the best move in the game and how Ganon's future backfist totally makes him the Smash equivalent of Bruce Lee.

[/collapse]

Get in here to talk about everything, Ganon related or not.

 

[Nail.exe]

I want to learn how to pull this one off:

http://youtu.be/VOlxhOayPwI?t=2m12s

I'm getting better at wavelanding (that is, actually using it to some degree of utility) but I haven't been able to immediately drop like he does in the video. Am I just failing, or is there something technical that I'm missing?

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

With 2.6 (hopefully) right around the corner, I think it's about time that we get social and bring this thread back to life. So, uh, let's have some conversation.

How about that new up-tilt? Hopefully it can find some use as a post-choke punisher or edge guarding tool, though anything more useful than the old move will be appreciated.

Has anyone noticed any other Ganon changes for 2.6?

 

[| Kailex |]

Well, as for th u tilt, i dont know... I think we just have to wait for the change log and check if there are other changes for ganon.. Maybe it could be of good use against characters with recoveries like fox falco or ness, i still have no idea though
I want to get in a tournament

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Yeah, I'm probably getting ahead of myself, discussing a move that I have yet to even use or see too much of and whatnot.

Regardless, I'm going to remain hyped and maintain my belief that the new tilt will revolutionize my Ganon game.

 

[| Kailex |]

Patience, my son

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

So, the change list is out. Not a whole lot changed for the 'Dorf aside from the new up-tilt.

Anyone have ideas as to where Ganon can improve in future updates? I feel as if he's been dropping on lists because he's fat, slow, and loves eating projectiles; which is a shame. I feel as if Ganon is entirely viable, but I'm petty and want to see him climb up the tiers. Any thoughts?

 

[teluoborg]

[collapse=changelist from 2.5b to 2.6b]-Initial Dash animation length increased by 1 frame to match Melee, improving moonwalk distance slightly
-T-Pose bug with his Final Smash is fixed
-Ganondorf's magical effects now illuminate his body
-Dash Attack adjusted to use Brawl damage and knockback
-Up Tilt (Volcano Kick) replaced with new, electric stomp attack. Much faster but somewhat weaker
-Forward Smash's Neutral and Down angles adjusted in damage, power, and trajectory so there is more reason to use them over up angled, which previously was superior in all 3 of those areas
-Neutral Air 1st kick has less base knockback and higher angle to be slightly better as a combo starter and combo into 2nd hit more often
-Neutral B additional turns can be prevented by holding B[/collapse]

I'm going to test that "adjusted to Brawl" Dash attack, see what it means. I know the sweetspot kills in Brawl, but I'm not sure how well that translates into the PM physics.

Other than that I'd say the first hit Nair change sounds like a good reason to use this move more, and of course the new Utilt is god.
"Somewhat weaker" makes me laugh, this move is easily as powerful as the stomp, if you consider how much faster it's gotten this is ridiculous.

So I'm going to look for Utilt setups.

 

[| Kailex |]

Just add some more armor on him and that is that

Edit: Maybe even as not getting affected by projectiles

 

[WizKick]

I just want Wizard's Foot to have a stronger hitbox or heavy armor. It clashes or completely loses out to too much.

 

[lukifer]

Someone over in the character idea thread in General had the idea of making grounded Wizard's Foot plow through projectiles rather than "clanking" with them. Seems like this would help Ganon's zoning issues, and the ending lag is long enough that it wouldn't be overpowered. Then again, maybe it's too easy to punish so as not to be useful. Perhaps it should be jump-cancellable...?

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

I worry about the Brawl damage and knockback for the sole reason that it came from Brawl, where Ganon is horrible. I haven't tested it out too much, but I didn't know there was a difference until the change list came out, so I can't imagine that the changes are too drastic.

Utilt is the best. I love using it against any recovery that's hard to sweetspot. It's really a wonderful feeling.

Falcon misses the ledge? How 'bout a nice stomp?

Mario pops up above the edge for a second? He gets the boot.

Aside from that, if you can manage to read a tech roll absolutely perfectly it can work. Utilt is god.

 

[WizKick]

Someone over in the character idea thread in General had the idea of making grounded Wizard's Foot plow through projectiles rather than "clanking" with them. Seems like this would help Ganon's zoning issues, and the ending lag is long enough that it wouldn't be overpowered. Then again, maybe it's too easy to punish so as not to be useful. Perhaps it should be jump-cancellable...?

Jump Cancellable Wizard's Feet would be awesome. Especially if they did plow through projectiles. It would be such a cool way to approach.

 

[| Kailex |]

Gawd that would be the best, maybe being able to cancel an Air-side b would be nice, like in brawl minus; just add some new animations/changes etc. that would help him recover, maybe a guarnateed footstool? Gimme your thoughts

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Jump-cancellable Wiz Kick would be ridiculous. It'd be like a slower, shorter, and more powerful Quickdraw, which probably shouldn't be a thing and should also remain unique to Ike.

Wiz Kick plowing through projectiles sounds nice and would help a lot, but I'd rather Ganon didn't devolve into "Is there a projectile?" -> "Activate the Wiz Kick." I might be jumping to a conclusion there, but I want to believe that there is a better way to help Ganon compete with projectiles and camping than an abort button for immediate punishment.

Not sure what you mean by "cancel an air-side b", but I feel like PM should stay as far away from Brawl Minus as possible...

 

[| Kailex |]

Was trying to say an arial side-b, his choke you know, but lol okay, Im imagining ganon wavedashing out of his grounded wizard foot... Hm, now that I think of it, I dont know if it would help THAT much

 

[WizKick]

I definitely think it would make his movement more interesting.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Ha, I figured you were talking about the choke, I just don't understand what you mean by cancel it. Do you mean a jump cancel, a way to shorten it like the Spacies' side-b, or what?

 

[| Kailex |]

Maybe, but I wont want it if it's going to be a lot of work for the pmbr :/ even though I think its as easy as cutting a watermelon, unless they don't know how to then nvm

 

[WizKick]

Well, I've really got no qualms about the choke in any form. I do feel like grounded WizKick needs some love in some form though.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Wiz Kick is already, in my mind, a great tech chase option, edge guarding tool, punisher, finisher, etc. It already has a lot going for it, but it could always be better. Making it jump-cancellable or giving it super-armor would probably wind up making it Ganon's only approach option. Granted, if it doesn't hit it's easy to punish, but still.

Basically, ground Wiz Kick might need some love, but I have no idea how to do so. Less end-lag maybe? I don't know.

 

[leelue]

I think Grounded wiz kick is great as it is right now. I think virtually all of ganons moves are great though...
Except one...

And yet he's still ganon tier

 

[| Kailex |]

That's the best tier in the history of tiers

 

[Magus420]

Haha, I also wasn't expecting much when looking up the stats on Brawl dash attack, but it seems to be pretty much a straight improvement over Melee knockback. Damage on strong hit 14 -> 15, Angles on both hits send 10 degrees more upward, Base knockback (added KB regardless of total damage) on both hits is higher. Only downside would be it starts sending them too high to combo earlier on due to being stronger, but I think the better combo/kill angle, BKB making it combo better at low damages, and strong enough to be a quick and decent vertical kill move offset that.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

I think Grounded wiz kick is great as it is right now. I think virtually all of ganons moves are great though...
Except one...

And yet he's still ganon tier

I think I know which move you refer to... Could it be changed, or is that simply too much to ask?

Also, good to hear that the Brawl dash attack is an improvement. I worry, because generally Brawl + Ganon is a bad combo, catastrophic even.

 

[lukifer]

Jump-cancellable Wiz Kick would be ridiculous. It'd be like a slower, shorter, and more powerful Quickdraw, which probably shouldn't be a thing and should also remain unique to Ike.

Wiz Kick plowing through projectiles sounds nice and would help a lot, but I'd rather Ganon didn't devolve into "Is there a projectile?" -> "Activate the Wiz Kick." I might be jumping to a conclusion there, but I want to believe that there is a better way to help Ganon compete with projectiles and camping than an abort button for immediate punishment.

Not sure what you mean by "cancel an air-side b", but I feel like PM should stay as far away from Brawl Minus as possible...

Well, the main reason I suggested it be jump-cancellable is because a super-armored Wizard's Foot wouldn't be that useful for countering projectiles without it. If you're getting projectile-camped then you're probably at least a few character widths away from your opponent, in which case anyone with a decent reaction time will be able to avoid the Wizard's Foot and punish the end lag immensely.

However, even without the super armor, allowing it to be jump-cancelled would give him some very interesting approach options. You could do things like down B -> wavedash to try and bait out certain reactions or just study your opponent's play style, or down B -> short hop -> Flame Choke if they try to shield. For the sake of balance he wouldn't be able to jump out of it during the start up frames or during the ending lag - only while traveling along the ground.

Having said all that, I realize why the PMBR would be reticent to make a change like this. Given the move's strong killing power and fast activation time, you sort of need the player to commit to it. It sure would be awesome though.

I guess what I'm suggesting here isn't that much different from Sonic being able to wavedash out of down B in 2.5, and we all know how that turned out. >_>

 

[WizKick]

You may be right, Grounded WizKick probably isn't the issue. It's more likely his approach game itself.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

So, how do you improve Ganon's approach game without changing the Wiz Kick? I feel like both Flame Choke and Kick are where they should be, so I feel like that only leaves Ganon's speed/agility to buff. That seems like a dangerous game, considering his power, but what else can be done to get him out of Ganon tier?

 

[teluoborg]

So yeah, dash attack kills between 110 and 160 with no DI, depending on the character.

And seriously you don't need to approach. Just punch the air until people start shielding and bang you got a free side B.

 

[foxygrandpa]

So yeah, dash attack kills between 110 and 160 with no DI, depending on the character.

And seriously you don't need to approach. Just punch the air until people start shielding and bang you got a free side B.

I gotta agree with this. In my opinion, Ganons punish game is so powerful, and his ranging so good that he doesnt really need to approach. Because of this, I think he has problems against link and snake, and whoever else can camp. Fair is probably his best move, since it eliminates the need to approach and is so helpful in stage control.

 

[leelue]

Ganon's jab is his best move

 

[Ace55]

It's a close call between those two and ftilt imo.

 

[leelue]

Ftilt is the majority of my kills, Fair is the majority of my unfair kills, and jab is the main reason why I don't just lose when i'm next to people.

 

[teluoborg]

Most of my kills are down B. Punish every landing ever.

 

[WizKick]

Most of my kills are down B. Punish every landing ever.

As a noob, only just getting into the higher levels of play I rely on this too much. I use it well, but after a bit I get read and baited too hard.

 

[| Kailex |]

Aaaand that's a reason why ganon should be able to jump out of his down-b

 

[leelue]

So you can't get baited?

 

[| Kailex |]

It could be an approach tool as well

 

[teluoborg]

And it could also be a projectile. Why doesn't down B shoot Falco's lasers in every direction ?

Seriously wizkick is very very powerful as is with it's huge burst range and forever lasting early killing sweetspot, it's only logical for it to have some drawback.

 

[WizKick]

To clarify, I was just musing out loud. Not saying me getting baited has anything to do with the move itself.