Ivysaur+ Get Whipped!

[GuruKid]

As long as we're giving stupid buffs to other chars, yeah... Ivy will need more buffs as well, just to keep up with the rest of the cast.

I like your idea, OBM (I had no idea you were into the game!). A Samus Bomb-Jump-like recovery would open up even more possibilities onstage as well (attacking from the top).

However, I don't believe that alone will boost her to even mid-tier. The weakness to fire needs to be removed, and Bullet Seed needs to... not suck.

With these three changes, Ivy would be a legit character. As for now, though... bottom tier it is.

 

[shanus]

As long as we're giving stupid buffs to other chars, yeah... Ivy will need more buffs as well, just to keep up with the rest of the cast.

I like your idea, OBM (I had no idea you were into the game!). A Samus Bomb-Jump-like recovery would open up even more possibilities onstage as well (attacking from the top).

However, I don't believe that alone will boost her to even mid-tier. The weakness to fire needs to be removed, and Bullet Seed needs to... not suck.

With these three changes, Ivy would be a legit character. As for now, though... bottom tier it is.

What if dair didn't cancel your horizontal momentum, and only your vertical?

 

[omegablackmage]

there are a lot of things that could be done to fix ivysaur, the largest single buff would be to adjust the dair to make it useful for recovery. Shanus, that proposal would probably be exactly what ivysaur would need.

other things i've noticed:
*even when hitting with the bullet seed dead on and trapping them inside, the cooldown on the move usually means you will get hit. is this trade in damage what the wbr intended for?

*dsmash is completely useless, i get punished every time i use it, hit or miss.

 

[Sulfur]

there are a lot of things that could be done to fix ivysaur, the largest single buff would be to adjust the dair to make it useful for recovery. Shanus, that proposal would probably be exactly what ivysaur would need.

other things i've noticed:
*even when hitting with the bullet seed dead on and trapping them inside, the cooldown on the move usually means you will get hit. is this trade in damage what the wbr intended for?

*dsmash is completely useless, i get punished every time i use it, hit or miss.

About dsmash, if they miss the tech you get a free smash in. And you can own own certain recoveries with the spike (falcon, ganon are tops.

 

[Roxas215]

Yea i actually like ivys dsmash for wrecking peoples recovery. I don't actually use it to build damage.

 

[KOkingpin]

I really like the Idea of Dair not losing Horizontal momentum. It would make Dair a lot better in combo setups and help with recovery so that Ivy isnt dead when off stage.

 

[GuruKid]

What if dair didn't cancel your horizontal momentum, and only your vertical?

Yeah, that sounds really good actually.

About Dsmash; it's actually not useful onstage; I am starting to use it a bit more against botched recoveries, but I think that's all it is useful for.

Bullet Seed also needs work; as OBM mentioned, the endlag is long enough that a hit on Ivy is guaranteed, and for whatever reason the move is considerably easier to DI...

The move is actually perfect in regular Brawl, and should remain relatively similar to its original counterpart; the only real changes that are needed are to compensate for gravity changes:

- slightly (slightly) more knockback per hit
- slightly decreased endlag.

 

[Kitamerby]

I really like the Idea of Dair not losing Horizontal momentum. It would make Dair a lot better in combo setups and help with recovery so that Ivy isnt dead when off stage.

I agree. It would be an interesting way to help Ivysaur's recovery, if nothing else.

 

[omegablackmage]

What are the odds of this bomb jump-like recovery actually making it into the next update? I feel as though its a pretty simple buff to a character who desperately needs it... but i don't know what the turnaround time is on these types of things.

 

[shanus]

What are the odds of this bomb jump-like recovery actually making it into the next update? I feel as though its a pretty simple buff to a character who desperately needs it... but i don't know what the turnaround time is on these types of things.

Its a simple change which actually has a few issues. I haven't spent a lot of time on it, I implemented it into a pac. The main issue is that it actually caused a few crashes when I toyed with it (i managed to land during the stall and it exploded), so I need to fix the bugs. I'll put up a demo pac maybe tonight.

 

[shanus]

double edit: success!


V4: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ztrc2leymmy


This cancels & stalls vertical momentum and preserves horizontal.

 

[GuruKid]

Thumbs up for this dair change. It's got my seal of approval.

Now to remove fire weakness and get a working Bullet Seed...

 

[omegablackmage]

so, i must say im pretty excited about the ivysaur changes:


- B throw to a lower angle with same stats
not a huge change, but will make it a better quick throw to catch people's di offguard
for kills possibly.


- F throw to a lower angle with same stats
I really like this change, if your on the stage, it will force them to tech giving you
opportunities to get kills when upthrow to upair doesn't work. If you throw them offstage
its kinda a nasty angle that allows for great bair gimping opportunities. With these two
throw changes, i would say all of ivysaur's throws have great uses now.


- Original stats on neutral B with more SDI and hitlag
I assume this means its a bit harder to get out of im not sure, if thats the case then,
great we'll take it.


- Less winddown on neutral B release
This is another change we neeeded, and im very excited about. Now we can combo into
our neutral b, and not have to worry about getting punished for it. Great for racking up
damage with no trade now, great oos option, im very happy with this.


- All upB tether animations at 2x
I assume this means all of the up b is twice as fast, which can help get some more of
those tight recovery situations in our favor.


- U tilt all hitboxes at 1.5x size
Actually hits a bit in front of ivysaur now, making it much more useful in combos with
its good reach and speed.



- Dair now keeps horizontal momentum, but stalls vertical
This is the single biggest change im excited about. Not only can we recover much
better now, but it has more applications in combos too. Offstage we can use a few dairs,
dj and side b the opponent off the ledge, a few more dairs and then recover. Definitely
not possible to recover from those situations before. On stage you can dair someone's
shield and then move away after for a somewhat safe approach on some characters. If
you hit them in a combo with it you can chase their di a little bit for follow up attacks.
Very nice buff, and we know we needed it.

Overall, im very happy with these changes. Ivysaur still lacks a lot in the offstage department, but this is a huge step in the right direction for us. My only suggestion to fix ivysaur's recovery (should we deem that he is still the worst based on his recovery) would be to give him the ability to retain horizontal momentum during his up b.

Lemme know what your thoughts are on this update guys

 

[NEWCOMER: Shadow Kirby]

DSmash on the edge is ****.

DSmash onstage is epic combo beginner.

Conclusion: DSmash is epic.

 

[jalued]

DSmash on the edge is ****.

DSmash onstage is epic combo beginner.

Conclusion: DSmash is epic.

its also slow, can be teched easily, has no priority at all and easly punished

 

[Rudra]

- Original stats on neutral B with more SDI and hitlag
I assume this means its a bit harder to get out of im not sure, if thats the case then,
great we'll take it.

I thought increased SDI potency and Hitlag makes it easier to get out of Bullet Seed. Either way, with less windown on release, you can probably time it so that you release as soon as the opponent escapes Bullet Seed and not get punished.

 

[omegablackmage]

I thought increased SDI potency and Hitlag makes it easier to get out of Bullet Seed. Either way, with less windown on release, you can probably time it so that you release as soon as the opponent escapes Bullet Seed and not get punished.

It does seem a bit easier to get out of, but certainly a good trade off for the reduced cooldown to make the move useful. I use it in a lot of situations rather than using the slow grab etc because of the sheer damage output.

 

[Roxas215]

Been totally out the brawl+ loop. Anything that needs updated in the OP let me know!

Whats new with Ivy is GSH2?(I know about the dair change)

 

[The Cape]

Actually I DLed the set. Dair wasnt changed, its just a problem with the downloader.

If you download the .pac files straight then the dair works.

 

[omegablackmage]

good to hear, i thought the movement in the dair was a good addition to his game and i was surprised it was taken out. thanks cape

 

[Sulfur]

So... ivy is too much fun. I love fthrow and bair gimps. Also, is it just me or does he **** jiggs.

 

[Zero_Gamer]

So... Is it safe to assume Ivysaur is not that popular?

I've been playing her for a while now and I'm really liking what's been done to her.

btw, I think Ivysaur ***** Jigglypuff too.

 

[KOkingpin]

So... Is it safe to assume Ivysaur is not that popular?

I've been playing her for a while now and I'm really liking what's been done to her.

btw, I think Ivysaur ***** Jigglypuff too.

well its not that she isnt popular. She is, imo, a great character. Loads of combos that kill fairly easy but a bad recovery. I dunno I think maybe her Learning Curve is what turns people off of her. Kinda like Yoshi

 

[leafbarrett]

V4: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ztrc2leymmy


This cancels & stalls vertical momentum and preserves horizontal.

D: The file got deleted or something.

 

[matt4300]

Ivy has some realllllllyyy stupid ****. Her utilt has MASSIVE range. Her Dair is the size of 2 bowsers, and her Bair completely shuts down some characters (mario) Out of all my mains the only one I can win against zeros Ivy with is my link. Even then Her dairs go right through my utilt and uair. Her utilt stuffs all of my aerial options (even dair.) and one nair means inescapeable utilt uair combos.

@Ko your probley thinking about how you destroyed my link and mario in that bama tourney, and are thinking of writing this off as the rambleings of a mediocre player, but I and everyone in birming ham has gotten much much better at + Zero can back me up on this. Ivu is REALLY good. I honestly think some of his moves were over buffed.

 

[KOkingpin]

Ivy has some realllllllyyy stupid ****. Her utilt has MASSIVE range. Her Dair is the size of 2 bowsers, and her Bair completely shuts down some characters (mario) Out of all my mains the only one I can win against zeros Ivy with is my link. Even then Her dairs go right through my utilt and uair. Her utilt stuffs all of my aerial options (even dair.) and one nair means inescapeable utilt uair combos.

@Ko your probley thinking about how you destroyed my link and mario in that bama tourney, and are thinking of writing this off as the rambleings of a mediocre player, but I and everyone in birming ham has gotten much much better at + Zero can back me up on this. Ivu is REALLY good. I honestly think some of his moves were over buffed.

I agree that Up tilt was way over buffed. But thats awesome that you guys got better. You should come to my next monthly

 

[Zero_Gamer]

We were actually talking about that the other day. We're really going to think about it.

While I see the gayness of Uptilt, I really wouldn't want it changed. It's Ivysaur's best move, imo, and she would really suffer without it. The Bair on the other hand... yeah... no one move should completely shut down some characters.

 

[KOkingpin]

We were actually talking about that the other day. We're really going to think about it.

While I see the gayness of Uptilt, I really wouldn't want it changed. It's Ivysaur's best move, imo, and she would really suffer without it. The Bair on the other hand... yeah... no one move should completely shut down some characters.

honestly what can you do to that move without Taking it out of the game? It was Ivy's best move in vBrawl too and It still is her Best move. Up Tilt is a very very close second best because it sets up all of her best combos. I think she is a solid char because her recovery is so gimpable like oli's

 

[matt4300]

honestly what can you do to that move without Taking it out of the game? It was Ivy's best move in vBrawl too and It still is her Best move. Up Tilt is a very very close second best because it sets up all of her best combos. I think she is a solid char because her recovery is so gimpable like oli's

No way it's as bad as oli's. She has that crazy dair, and much more range. She can just about pick when she wants to up-b because of the dair stall. I would say shes just below shiek in recovery.

Link's dair just LOL fails her tether though.

 

[Zero_Gamer]

Dude, why the heck am I vulnerable while pulling myself up to the ledge with UpB? So dumb. Almost as dumb as getting footstooled on Rainbow Cruise by a pompous artist.

 

[KOkingpin]

No way it's as bad as oli's. She has that crazy dair, and much more range. She can just about pick when she wants to up-b because of the dair stall. I would say shes just below shiek in recovery.

Link's dair just LOL fails her tether though.

well Oli has Super Armor with his whistle so they both have about equal recoveries IMO

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

well Oli has Super Armor with his whistle so they both have about equal recoveries IMO

Ivy has the superior recovery, but only barely.

Ivy has a projectile that reliably harasses the edge, and can actually get more distance with her dair.
If Olimar has to recover below the stage, he has to hope that his opponent can't tech, and that his UpB will kill both of them.

 

[Zero_Gamer]

Ivysaur is stupid broken.

 

[LASHING_LEAF]

she was mad a a super recovery unit
zard=power
ivy=recovery
squirt=speed

they are the 3 units that make a great character... they should not be split up... but if i had to choose squirt is my stradegy type

 

[camden]

Man, I played Charizard for awhile, and he's pretty great, but Ivy is definitely something. Nothing feels better than a surprise dsmash > fsmash at 120%.

Also, uptilt > everything ****.

Holy crap Squirtle's boring.

 

[Brennus]

Ivysaur is stupid broken.

Don't say that. Whenever I finally find a character I like they get nerfed to hell and back in the next patch. I already lost Falco, Ness and Zelda, I don't want to lose Ivysaur too .

 

[leafbarrett]

We were actually talking about that the other day. We're really going to think about it.

While I see the gayness of Uptilt, I really wouldn't want it changed. It's Ivysaur's best move, imo, and she would really suffer without it. The Bair on the other hand... yeah... no one move should completely shut down some characters.

Would simply nerfing the hitbox size do the trick?

Ivysaur is stupid broken.

...Can you be more specific, please? x_x

 

[Zero_Gamer]

Would simply nerfing the hitbox size do the trick?

...Can you be more specific, please? x_x

Reduced Bair's range would help a lot. As it is now, it completely shuts down a lot of characters with not enough range like Kirby, Jigglypuff, Mario, etc. Perhaps adding some landing lag would do the same trick without reducing Ivysaur's spaced air-to-air shenanigans.

As for specificity on why Ivysaur is broken. Numerous comments I get from a lot of people I play are along the lines of, "Ivysaur is too free," and I agree.

Dair has such massive range and such little lag that SH Dair or FH Dair make for unpunishable approaches that lead to Nair --> Uptilt --> Upair juggle on hit or Nair/Dair on shield.

Uptilt ***** everything because of its massive priority. It stops ALL aerials, even Link's, G&W's, and Lucario's Dairs (but not Ivysaur's >.> ).

Bair, as I already said, shuts down a lot of characters completely.

Ivy's grabs are fine to me, but there's no denying they are really good too. Bthrow and Upthrow kill, Fthrow opens up tech chasing/gimping, and Dthrow combos into Upair on most characters, which also usually leads to more Upairs, as a legit combo and not a string no less.

Ivy can also camp a little, but really it's the Dair that ***** everything because it gives a free approach with very little risk and very high reward that works consistently in too many situations.