It's the "So Long Ness" Monster of an update

[Flaming_Wuzzle]

OK, Sakurai's exact words:

"There's a character named Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now,...."

I don't think he's going to be in Brawl.

In the Handicaps post:

"So until now, I’ve always made sure to include handicaps in each game in the series."

So going by your logic, handicaps are deconfirmed for Brawl.

...except, they aren't. Sakurai (or at least his English translator) doesn't necessarily mean that <feature> is out of Brawl when he uses "until now", so, at the moment, there's nothing that deconfirms Ness other than the idea that since Ness was supposed to be taken out of Melee in favor of Lucas, but then got left in because Mother 3 got delayed, Sakurai is going to switch them out in Brawl.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

In the Handicaps post:

"So until now, I’ve always made sure to include handicaps in each game in the series."

So going by your logic, handicaps are deconfirmed for Brawl.

...except, they aren't. Sakurai (or at least his English translator) doesn't necessarily mean that <feature> is out of Brawl when he uses "until now", so, at the moment, there's nothing that deconfirms Ness other than the idea that since Ness was supposed to be taken out of Melee in favor of Lucas, but then got left in because Mother 3 got delayed, Sakurai is going to switch them out in Brawl.

Eh... they *ARE*

The handicap update deconfirmed the old handicap system and introduced a new one. Just replace old handicap with Ness and new handicap with Lucas and it's the same thing.

 

[Flaming_Wuzzle]

Eh... they *ARE*

The handicap update deconfirmed the old handicap system and introduced a new one. Just replace old handicap with Ness and new handicap with Lucas and it's the same thing.

No, he said Handicaps, not a specific system of handicaps, just the concept of a handicap in general. The fact that he changed the handicap system isn't mentioned until further down in the update.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

No, he said Handicaps, not a specific system of handicaps, just the concept of a handicap in general. The fact that he changed the handicap system isn't mentioned until further down in the update.

...

So? He still used it for a deconfirmation.

I'll put it another way: Whenever "up until now" is used, it denotes CHANGE. New Handicap system, a new way to do combos and Mario's Fludd.

There's always change involved.

 

[M.K]

I've heard that the "up until now" translation from the Japanese could mean a variety of things. The Japanese systems letter combanation it derived from could also mean several, non-deconfirming phrases.

 

[Byron X]

I can't believe you all think Ness is really gone! Fools, you'll all see in due time!


*Teleports from Thread*

 

[zurf23]

Up until now, I've decided to jump to conclusions. LMAO

 

[xyouxarexuglyx2]

Oh my God, please tell me this whole thing is a joke.

If you people think the phrase "up until now" de-confirms Ness, you are the biggest concentration of idiots ever to form on the Internet.

 

[Flaming_Wuzzle]

...

So? He still used it for a deconfirmation.

I'll put it another way: Whenever "up until now" is used, it denotes CHANGE. New Handicap system, a new way to do combos and Mario's Fludd.

There's always change involved.

The only reason you're assuming Ness is deconfirmed is because of 3 words that have been proven to not necessarily mean that <whatever> is not going to be in Brawl.

"So until now, I’ve always made sure to include handicaps in each game in the series."

Now, if he had said something to the effect of "So until now, I've always made sure to include handicaps to weaken certain competitors in each game in the series", I could see your point, since he would clearly be talking about the previous handicap system. But he doesn't mention anything about the system changing until the next sentence, which has absolutely nothing to do with 'until now'. He just says 'handicap', which is just referring to the concept of a handicap in some form. So, in this case, 'until now' is being used as 'since the beginning of the series'. Why can't that also be true of Ness?

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

The only reason you're assuming Ness is deconfirmed is because of 3 words that have been proven to not necessarily mean that <whatever> is not going to be in Brawl.

"So until now, I’ve always made sure to include handicaps in each game in the series."

Now, if he had said something to the effect of "So until now, I've always made sure to include handicaps to weaken certain competitors in each game in the series", I could see your point, since he would clearly be talking about the previous handicap system. But he doesn't mention anything about the system changing until the next sentence, which has absolutely nothing to do with 'until now'. He just says 'handicap', which is just referring to the concept of a handicap in some form. So, in this case, 'until now' is being used as 'since the beginning of the series'. Why can't that also be true of Ness?

WTF???

Did you EVER know Ness was supposed to be cut in Melee but wasn't because Lucas' game was cancelled?

Things are not looking good for Ness, and I've been saying this since Oct. 1.

 

[MetaKnight'sSword]

WTF???

Did you EVER know Ness was supposed to be cut in Melee but wasn't because Lucas' game was cancelled?

Things are not looking good for Ness, and I've been saying this since Oct. 1.

ah yes but alot of ppl love Ness...the only way...and I MEAN THE ONLY WAY for Ness to be deconfirmed is if we get the game and Ness is nowhere to be found....even if we unlocked everything...."up until now" means alot of things....but it certainly does, in fact, NOT deconfirm anything......

 

[Flaming_Wuzzle]

WTF???

Did you EVER know Ness was supposed to be cut in Melee but wasn't because Lucas' game was cancelled?

Things are not looking good for Ness, and I've been saying this since Oct. 1.

Uh..

there's nothing that deconfirms Ness other than the idea that since Ness was supposed to be taken out of Melee in favor of Lucas, but then got left in because Mother 3 got delayed, Sakurai is going to switch them out in Brawl.

Yes, I did know that. However, that condition existing in Melee's development isn't proof that the same condition exists in Brawl's development.

 

[Fawriel]

Yes, I did know that. However, that condition existing in Melee's development isn't proof that the same condition exists in Brawl's development.

As much as I hate to repeat myself verbatim... *ahem*

"Yeah, I'm sure he managed to get less bored of the character after all those years."

I'll try to put up a timeline of "Will Ness be in Brawl?"

Start: "Sakurai wanted to replace him for Melee."
-> 50% ( will he or won't he? )

"Newcomer: Lucas"
-> 25% ( looks quite like he did )

"Up until now"
-> 12.5% ( it is a bit ambiguous )

"Now check out his moves which are all but improvements over Ness' in Melee! Even the nonsensical PK Thunder recovery was kept!"
-> 5% ( seriously now )

 

[DekuBoy]

**** it... if Sakurai confirmed Ness that would be the greatest update ever. Great! It's my 200th post! Sakurai will anwser my wish! Tommorrow get ready for Ness on the Dojo!!!

 

[Kraid Guy]

Tell that to everyone else who's gotten 1000 posts and didn't get there wishes granted.

 

[redrider]

ness can still be an AT. Probably not a playable character but at least he'll still be in the game.

 

[SpitFire15]

I hated Ness, so I could care less if he returned or not.

 

[blayde_axel]

ness can still be an AT. Probably not a playable character but at least he'll still be in the game.

Once again, if he's not a playable character, he shouldn't be an AT. It's not "honorable."

That's like saying if Falco's not in, he could be an AT.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

What I want to know is from *WHERE* the Ness fans are comming now?? Where the hell where you 6 years ago? The moment a character gets close to a deconfirmation, all of his supporters come up? WTF? Were you undercover?

 

[Fawriel]

Once again, if he's not a playable character, he shouldn't be an AT. It's not "honorable."

That's like saying if Falco's not in, he could be an AT.

... uh.
Aren't you supposed to put a really absurd example into such an analogy? I don't see anything wrong with a Falco AT. At all.

Look, just imagine it. Non-returning characters return in AT form as the rarest and most powerful variety of them all. They show up, taunt, then perform an epic Final Smash that's possibly even better than any Final Smash a playable character has.
They just show up and kick *** and can't get their *** beaten in return. Sounds good to me.

What I want to know is from *WHERE* the Ness fans are comming now?? Where the hell where you 6 years ago? The moment a character gets close to a deconfirmation, all of his supporters come up? WTF? Were you undercover?

I'm guessing that half of these people are just some sort of conservative party who simply need things because they got used to them.

 

[Flaming_Wuzzle]

What I want to know is from *WHERE* the Ness fans are comming now?? Where the hell where you 6 years ago? The moment a character gets close to a deconfirmation, all of his supporters come up? WTF? Were you undercover?

Honestly, I'm not that much of a Ness fan. I barily used him in Melee, and wouldn't be particularly upset if Ness did actually get taken out. I'm just tired of people misinterpreting three words on one language's version of the Dojo, then shouting down everyone who wants to actually wait until we have completely indisputable proof of a character's departure and telling them to 'deal with it'.

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

... uh.
Aren't you supposed to put a really absurd example into such an analogy? I don't see anything wrong with a Falco AT. At all.

Like if Ganondorf became an AT?

{shudders}

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Honestly, I'm not that much of a Ness fan. I barily used him in Melee, and wouldn't be particularly upset if Ness did actually get taken out. I'm just tired of people misinterpreting three words on one language's version of the Dojo, then shouting down everyone who wants to actually wait until we have completely indisputable proof of a character's departure and telling them to 'deal with it'.

Lucas supposed to be in SSB + Lucas supposed to be in Melee + Lucas revealed before Ness + Him getting 3 of his specials and one that works almost like the other one = Ness is most likely out.

There, not a single "Up until now".

 

[DeuceBlade]

Lucas supposed to be in SSB + Lucas supposed to be in Melee + Lucas revealed before Ness + Him getting 3 of his specials and one that works almost like the other one = Ness is most likely out.

There, not a single "Up until now".

If we follow that logic, that might mean a few things..

- Balloon Fighter will be in brawl, I think he was wanted in melee.
- Ike being revealed before Marth means hes out.
- samurai goroh's AT = the new F-Zero rep since he got revealed before C.Falcon (jk lol)

I say we just wait to see if sukarai himself says "Ness is out" or "Ness is in"

or that corocoro thing on dec 15th

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

If we follow that logic, that might mean a few things..

- Balloon Fighter will be in brawl, I think he was wanted in melee.
- Ike being revealed before Marth means hes out.
- samurai goroh's AT = the new F-Zero rep since he got revealed before C.Falcon (jk lol)

I say we just wait to see if sukarai himself says "Ness is out" or "Ness is in"

or that corocoro thing on dec 15th

-Balloon Fighter for Brawl!!
-Ike doesn't play like Marth
-That's just stupid.

 

[Flaming_Wuzzle]

Lucas supposed to be in SSB + Lucas supposed to be in Melee + Lucas revealed before Ness + Him getting 3 of his specials and one that works almost like the other one = Ness is most likely out.

There, not a single "Up until now".

1/2) Okay, Lucas was supposed to be in both games before this. There's no rule that says only one of them can be in. Not many people would have had a problem with Lucas replacing Ness for Melee, but Ness was easily one of the more popular characters in the series, so there's every chance he was kept in because of the fans.
3) Entirely possible that Sakurai's not going to reveal any of the unlockables.
4) Ness could be back with a different moveset. Refer back to the Bowser update, specifically the part that says that there will be a lot of characters that will have a "slightly different flavor." Maybe they'll give him moves that he actually had in the Mother games.

 

[DeuceBlade]

1/2) Okay, Lucas was supposed to be in both games before this. There's no rule that says only one of them can be in. Not many people would have had a problem with Lucas replacing Ness for Melee, but Ness was easily one of the more popular characters in the series, so there's every chance he was kept in because of the fans.
3) Entirely possible that Sakurai's not going to reveal any of the unlockables.
4) Ness could be back with a different moveset. Refer back to the Bowser update, specifically the part that says that there will be a lot of characters that will have a "slightly different flavor." Maybe they'll give him moves that he actually had in the Mother games.

I hope your right, because Ness deserves to be in brawl.. after two games already.. if he is removed its just like saying he was a seat warmer for a blonde kid with a weird rope snake.

 

[Kraid Guy]

This is very weird since I started this whole 2 page arguement.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

1/2) Okay, Lucas was supposed to be in both games before this. There's no rule that says only one of them can be in. Not many people would have had a problem with Lucas replacing Ness for Melee, but Ness was easily one of the more popular characters in the series, so there's every chance he was kept in because of the fans.
3) Entirely possible that Sakurai's not going to reveal any of the unlockables.
4) Ness could be back with a different moveset. Refer back to the Bowser update, specifically the part that says that there will be a lot of characters that will have a "slightly different flavor." Maybe they'll give him moves that he actually had in the Mother games.

1/2) Yes, but then you're seeing Ness as a Smash character, and not as a Mother character.
3) Why would he? as a throwback to Smash 64? I don't see the point.
4) Then again, Bowser doesn't have a new moveset. The only character with a new move is Mario, and he didn't get an entire moveset overhaul. Why would they give a new moveset to a veteran and the old moveset to a newcommer? AND why would they give an all new moveset to a character they wanted out in Melee?

Each point on it's own may be easily counterable, but all of them together just add up too much.

 

[Dreamking]

Didn't Sakurai say the original 12 would return as playable characters?

I look at Ness and Lucas the same way as Mario and Luigi. Just because Luigi is similar to Mario in looks and moves, you wouldn't remove him would you?

 

[PSIguy89]

finally somone who thinks like me!!!!! thats how i say it could work out.
and if you ask me Lucas is a pretty bad replacment as far as Ness goes he seems to fight NOTHING like Ness. and if he is replacing Ness as a newcomer that makes him a pretty unoriginal newcomer at that
(just so you all know i don't hate Lucas i really like him along with MOTHER 3 but all this pertains to his translatation into brawl)

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

Didn't Sakurai say the original 12 would return as playable characters?

I look at Ness and Lucas the same way as Mario and Luigi. Just because Luigi is similar to Mario in looks and moves, you wouldn't remove him would you?

No, Sakurai never said that he was bringing back the original 12, but that is a very optomistic way to think about Ness. They may tweak Ness' old uB and dB though, since both attacks are very similar to Lucas'.

 

[Super_alex2]

If Ness is out (which I kind of doubt) it leaves room for new characters from the MOTHER series, even if he IS in. I would love to see other reps like Duster, Jeff, or Claus.

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

Well if the main character of Earthbound doesn't get in, I doubt we'll be seeing any of the supporting characters from the same game.

As for the cowboy dad and the dog and the girl and Claus? Hellz yea!

 

[lucario_user]

i hope i see the claus as an AT. *prepares for flaming in a war bunker with a fully stocked fridge*

 

[Hippochinfat]

ness is out dumb fanboys

 

[edde]

lucas seems stronger than ssbm ness really, but he isnt a classic player from the 64 version, i dont like the idea of taking ness away, why didnt they give that move set to ness =/?

 

[MetaKnight'sSword]

ness is out dumb fanboys

not really.....he still has a chance...he may be in...me may be out...but he still has a chance........

 

[Foe]

Didn't Sakurai say the original 12 would return as playable characters?

I look at Ness and Lucas the same way as Mario and Luigi. Just because Luigi is similar to Mario in looks and moves, you wouldn't remove him would you?

But Mario and Luigi are also two of the biggest Nintendo characters of the biggest franchise in Nintendo. Mother and Earthbound isn't even top 5 and Falco would have a bigger chance than Ness because of this.(Your reasoning.) Hell, you could even say Doc has a better chance using that.

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

Doc Mario has NO chance of returning.

But Ness still might... though at this point I do see him only making a cameo as an uber AT.