Items, Final Smash, and Tournament Play

[linkw00t]

Please read the whole thing before posting. I can sense too many Smashn00bs are going to post the exact same textbook response. Go to another items thread if you want to be lazy. (Posthing this WHOLE paragraphs makes the n00bs A.D.D kick in and they leave)

It seems to me, that all the items and AT updates are being completely ignored. Mostly due to the fact that people say items won't be in competive play. Also, many people are pissed at the fact that Samus will need to use a Smash Token in order to become ZSS. Meaning, that in competetive play ZSS won't be used. Should ZSS simply not be able to be played competitively because someon said "OMG Final Smash is cheepz! sum1 ban them!!"

Aren't all these assumptions based on what is tournament legal in Melee? Items were cut because of the randomness and unfair advantages that they might cause right? But at the same time good item use was built into the game (Smash throwing, catching, reflecting, etc) but there were aspects of it that were broken. Things like the random explosive boxes, capsules, all bomb Party Balls, etc.

Shouldn't the game's items be vigorously tested in every circumstance in Brawl before they are put out of general tournament play? Or specific items integrated for a better play experience, like the Smash Ball?

Why shouldn't the Final Smashes be used for Tournament Play? You read about, and a lot of people want them to be Tournament Legal. If you can only use them once per game how could that be overpowered? Maybe the Tournament Stock could be increased to accomodate for such a thing. Just because the Smash Ball might be an "Item" (even though on SmashBros.com it's not listed as an item} does that mean it should be turned off? Final Smashes are an awesome idea that shouldn't be completely ignored just because they might be labeled an Item. And Item is a bad word around here. More bad than **** **** **** and mother****er. A Final Smash could be at worst half as overpowered as a shine.

I think it's relatively stupid to automatically rule out items or Final Smashes before the game is even out, which is what a lot of people are already doing, simply based on how gameplay was in Melee. I think since the game is built around the characters, and the items, that they shouldn't be ruled out automatically.

Also, it adds even more strategy and mindgames to the mix. And really, do you all want to miss out on each of your favorite character's Final Smash just because people are too lazy to analyze what should be done about items, Final Smashes, and tournaments?

I'm not at all saying that Items should be used in Melee's tournament scene, I'm just saying if they were less broken, would all the top players still be at the top? Don't you think that items will add and even more enriching playstyle to the game? Don't you think that Sakurai and his team are working out some of the kinks that Melee's items had? Do any of the items so far seem broken or overpowered? Yeah, you can't really tell yet can you.

All that I AM saying, is that items should be tested and considered, or we might possibly have a broken tournament scene that consists of players who are too closed minded to opt for a playstyle that takes even MORE critical thinking and strategy.

Would all the of top tier characters remain so if they're over powered combos could be interrupted via items? I think items CAN add balancing.

*Prepares to be flamed to hell because of all the anti-Item Melee'ers are using Melee's items as a stardard to a different game.*

 

[Blackadder]

Bah, I'm not the "Flame" type, so rest easy.
Honestly, I can say items will be taken of Brawl. The game will be tested about how cool the items are, but then everyone will have them of after a week of playing.
Items will always add randomness, as well as altering the outcome of the match to much. Another reason they will be off is..well..simply...most people HATE them! I know I do. There will always be the occasional tourny that'll let them through, and friendlies are a fun "Item game" option.
It' just they have no place in competitive smash.
In my view, anyways.

 

[linkw00t]

Another reason they will be off is..well..simply...most people HATE them! I know I do.

Don't a lot of people hate certain Melee characters because they're considered too easy to learn or cheap? Just people people hate them doesn't mean they aren't integral to the game's mechanics.

They do alter the way a game is played, and there are even Items Advanced techniques from Melee that will probably be in brawl. Item catching for instance.

The items are BUILT to be balanced and counterable.

 

[Blackadder]

Don't a lot of people hate certain Melee characters because they're considered too easy to learn or cheap? Just people people hate them doesn't mean they aren't integral to the game's mechanics.

They do alter the way a game is played, and there are even Items Advanced techniques from Melee that will probably be in brawl. Item catching for instance.

The items are BUILT to be balanced and counterable.

I once saw a guy counter a Peach on starman.
Crazy s*** I tell ya.

I lot of people hate certain characters, yes, but items are intergral to the way the match will be played.
I mean;
It's the last stock for both. 30 seconds on the clock.
Marth and Ness our both on extreemly high percentages. Marth runs in to smash Ness one last time, but out of sheer luck, a hammer comes in from of Ness suddenly. He picks it up, and Marth gets destroyed.

That's pretty **** fair for a trournement, right?
...right?

 

[linkw00t]

Like I said, certain items that are considered broken or overpowered could be turned off. Just as certain stages that are considered unfair for certain players are turned off.

 

[Blackadder]

Well, look at it this way:
Items disbalance a fight.
A fox running around piffing **** at a Bowser just makes the fight that much unfair on him. Also, a battle using nothing but raw fighting skill of smash is just more fun than using items.

 

[linkw00t]

Also, a battle using nothing but raw fighting skill of smash is just more fun than using items.

Except that the game is built around using items. All the reflectors and Ness' absorbtion come to mind. Are these characters just **** out of luck because items are supposed to be turned off?

All I'm really saying, is items shouldn't automatically be ruled out entirely. And that they should be tested, and certain items could be turned off if they impact the match too much. Which is why, in Melee items were toggleable.

 

[Blackadder]

Well, all I can really say, is items are just off:
"Many novices to Melee notice that the ruleset demands highly specific conditions, conditions under which they rarely play, and that these rules squeeze the "fun" out of competitive play, and don't reflect a player's more cerebral skills. This argument, however, is not taken seriously by most tournament Smashers, who believe that the rigorous ruleset prevents degenerate gameplay, thus making competitive play more enriching (and fun). " That's from smash wiki, and it just reflects the general view of the tourny rules. SOme people like them, others hate them.
If you hate items being off, just go to a small town tourny, or play with friends. I don't think the rules for items will change for Brawl.

 

[Eaode]

I don't care about the entire argument. I want items off in tournies. There, I said it.


Why does it matter so much? Whenever you play the game out of a tourney you can whatever you want. I know My friends and I are going to be messing with items the first few weeks

 

[Blackadder]

I don't care about the entire argument. I want items off in tournies. There, I said it.


Why does it matter so much? Whenever you play the game out of a tourney you can whatever you want. I know My friends and I are going to be messing with items the first few weeks

Well said! Well said indeed!
I wish I thought of just saying that...
But he has a good point..

 

[Sundown]

It seems to me, that all the items and AT updates are being completely ignored. Mostly due to the fact that people say items won't be in competive play. Also, many people are pissed at the fact that Samus will need to use a Smash Token in order to become ZSS. Meaning, that in competetive play ZSS won't be used.

Aren't all these assumptions based on what is tournament legal in Melee? Items were cut because of the randomness and unfair advantages that they might cause right? But at the same time good item use was built into the game (Smash throwing, catching, reflecting, etc) but there were aspects of it that were broken. Things like the random explosive boxes, capsules, all bomb Party Balls, etc.

Shouldn't the game's items be vigorously tested in every circumstance in Brawl before they are put out of general tournament play? Or specific items integrated for a better play experience, like the Smash Ball?

I think it's relatively stupid to automatically rule out items before the game is even out, which is what a lot of people are already doing, simply based on how the items were in Melee. I think since the game is built around the characters, and the items, that they shouldn't be ruled out automatically.

Also, it adds even more strategy and mindgames to the mix. And really, do you all want to miss out on each of your favorite character's Final Smash just because people are too lazy to analyze what should be done about items and tournaments?

I'm not at all saying that Items should be used in Melee's tournament scene, I'm just saying if they were less broken, would all the top players still be at the top? Don't you think that items will add and even more enriching playstyle to the game? Don't you think that Sakurai and his team are working out some of the kinks that Melee's items had? Do any of the items so far seem broken or overpowered? Yeah, you can't really tell yet can you.

All that I AM saying, is that items should be tested and considered, or we might possibly have a broken tournament scene.


*Prepares to be flamed to hell because of all the anti-Item Melee'ers are using Melee's items as a stardard to a different game.*

I do not agree with you, because i believe items on make the game random, and in a tournament (where players are trying to win money based on who has the most skill) it is very important to keep the random factors to a minimum.

Apart from saying that, i wanted to give you mad props on the way you posted your thoughts, i think this is the ONLY "pro items" thread/post ive read that doesnt make me wanna flame the TC, i believe you adressed your point quite well and gave us some good food of thought. I agree with you that people are saying "items off for brawl" thinking of the way items work in melee, and i agree with you that that is a mistake. I agree with you that items should be tested throughly in Brawl because i believe they will behave differently, but ultimately i think they will be banned for tournament play because even if they are tweaked and Sakurai tries to make them more balanced, they will still add a level of randomness to a competitive game, which is a mistake since competitive games need to keep randomness to a minimum.

Anyway, good thread, good points, but i believe they should be off.

 

[linkw00t]

I don't care about the entire argument. I want items off in tournies. There, I said it

Is that really a good reason to have ALL items be off in the majority of tournaments? Is it really?

There has already been an argument for items in Melee, and the better decision was to ban them from tournaments. Banning them from Tournaments means that anyone with any aspiration will never use items, as that's how it will be in tournaments.

To say, beforehand, that ALL items should be turned off in every tournament is astounding. Character limitations are built around the use and availability of items right?

 

[Eaode]

I am sure tha when Brawl comes out, the value of the items and their fairness and everything will be thouroghly investigated by the Smash Back Room Members. They are the intelligible ones, they will decide if it is fit for major tournaments.

That being said, In MY opinion, I would not care for items in tournaments. No matter what is taken into consideration items still add considerable randomness. And plus I don't want the main focus of a match to see who can use items in smart ways the most. I want to see people use their character in unique ways. Items are the same for everyone. Combos and all et cetera are character specific.

I would be totally bummed if items made it to tournaments and combo videos no longer truly show what an individual character is capable of, just showing what someone can do with the assistance of items.




With all of that out of the way, Why don't you just play with items on with your friends? Or better yet, host your own tournaments with items on. There are tournies with items on out there. They're not popular because people don't want to play with items. Thus, they end up being filled with noobs

 

[The Hypnotist]

The TC is right, we don't know anything about the smash ball and everyone is jumping to conclusions.

As far as items go...

Only if all spawns are in a consistant pattern and caspules and crates don't explode, and you can choose the EXACT frequency of each item, and still ban overpowered items. Then maybe items could stand a chance.

If all of this happened, the whole "items are random" stuff is out of the window.

 

[Adi]

No matter how much customization is allowed in regards to items they will still be banned from tournament play. Items only stand to benefit the less skilled player. Think of it this way.

In a match without items we can assume that the more skilled player will win every time right? Now if we add items into the match it is irrelvant towards the more skilled player because it only solidifies his victory. However if the less skilled player happens to be lucky with items one match that is one victory on his record against a player who is more skilled than him. That is why, items will most likely never be used in tournament play.

 

[The Hypnotist]

No matter how much customization is allowed in regards to items they will still be banned from tournament play. Items only stand to benefit the less skilled player. Think of it this way.

In a match without items we can assume that the more skilled player will win every time right? Now if we add items into the match it is irrelvant towards the more skilled player because it only solidifies his victory. However if the less skilled player happens to be lucky with items one match that is one victory on his record against a player who is more skilled than him. That is why, items will most likely never be used in tournament play.

Read what I just posted before you...

 

[Adi]

Hmm, interesting idea and I do believe that if those changes were made items would be viable in tournament play. However doing so would ruin competitive matches. Why?

Competitive matches are all about trying to win. There is no honor and no limits to what can you do. Each player does their best to gain an advantage over the other. If players knew the spawning locations and frequency of items each player would try to camp in a respective place, waiting for an item to spawn in order to gain an advantage through it. It would become a horrible camp-fest and although fair, ruin the spirit of Smash.

 

[h1roshi]

i played my friend like 3 weeks ago with items and he didsnt know any advance stuff at all. but there were mad items on. in the confusion of all the items and explosions i was only able to 1 stock as opposed to 3-4 stocking him everytime otherwise. that is why items are banned...peace

-hiroshi

 

[Aeramis]

I don't care about items in general but it would be nice to see the smash ball in tournaments. Seeing how every character has a different final smash I think this one item people should consider. I wish it wasn't even an item and part of your moveset but like a 1 time thing per game.

This is something I wrote in another thread awhile back:
"I also don't like how some people complain about final smashes saying they will be banned for sure. I think they will be a very important part of brawl and character balance/power. I like playing without items in melee same as anyone else but this is one item that only time can tell if it should be used or not for tournaments... True, items, such as the smash ball, spawn randomly around the stage which makes it abit of luck to who gets it but at the sametime it takes abit of skill to use it in the right place at the right time to get the max effect out of it. Also you can try to control the stage in areas where chances for items are greater to appear which takes skill. So I hope people really look at all aspects of the smash ball without jumping on the bandwagon of all items suck period, let's hate them before the game even comes out."

 

[Adi]

If any item is going to be allowed in tournament play it will most definetely not be the smash orb.

 

[Aeramis]

If any item is going to be allowed in tournament play it will most definetely not be the smash orb.

I can see where your coming from with that but still you might want to wait till Brawl is out to see first hand how much skill is involved playing with it before ruling them out...

P.S. It would be funny if there wasn't an option to remove them. After all, smash dojo does hype them alot.

 

[Lorcl678]

I think if there was a way to avoid Final Smashes like edge stalling or a weakness to each character's Final Smash, there could be a chance it would be allowed in tournament play.

 

[_Phloat_]

Except that the game is built around using items. All the reflectors and Ness' absorbtion come to mind. Are these characters just **** out of luck because items are supposed to be turned off?

All I'm really saying, is items shouldn't automatically be ruled out entirely. And that they should be tested, and certain items could be turned off if they impact the match too much. Which is why, in Melee items were toggleable.

First off, the reflectors are far from useless as it is >_<

Anyways, there are character projectiles anyways.

I think items would upset the balence even more, fast characters are already better, (It will probably stay this way, just a guess) and they can get there first...

Do you think you could beat a good marth if they had a projectile to go with the insane range and speed, I sure don't.

Lastly, Imagine this

tournament match, 1000$ on the line, and you are combo-ing your opponent on his last stock... He flys arcross the level, to far to recover... But what is this, he is glowing, he must have hit an orb on the way out... He turns green, shoots back to the level, kills you, and takes the money..

 

[PrinnyFlute]

i played my friend like 3 weeks ago with items and he didsnt know any advance stuff at all. but there were mad items on. in the confusion of all the items and explosions i was only able to 1 stock as opposed to 3-4 stocking him everytime otherwise. that is why items are banned...peace

-hiroshi

Banned because you (and everyone else, apparently,) suck at adapting to items?

Dude, I got no problem with all you crazy "pro" types playing without items if that's how you like to play. Just please. Please stop pretending the reason you don't play with items is because they're 'completely random and flawed.' The fact of the matter is that you guys are playing Smash with an altered ruleset so it's more predictable and closer in nature to a traditional fighting game. You're playing Smash altered to play like Street Fighter, where character knowledge is the A1 all time rule. And that's fine. If that does it for you, then do it, by all means.

But don't pretend that the problem with items is that they completely randomize matches and negate skill. Items only add so much of a random element to a given match, and in reality there is only one phenomenon in the world of item play that is completely random; explosive spawns being dropped on someone's head now and then. If you don't want to have a random person losing a life every one out of ten matches, (or one out of twenty, if you ask me,) then fine, I understand this might be too much risk for some of you. But this aside there are very few cases of items that are random enough to throw off a game entirely.

Swooping in for the Ness kill, last stock, high percentage...and a hammer spawns on him, he grabs it, and wipes you out? I think I've got to note that the chance of this exact event happening is very, very remote. The hammer has to spawn in his EXACT LOCATION when it's both too late for you to react and hightail it out of there and too soon for you to hit him, effectively ending the match, before he has a chance to activate the hammer. In the already rare event that a hammer spawns on his head, probability dictates you're either going to be close enough to stop him from getting it or far away enough to put some space between the two of you. From there, there're multiple ways of dealing with a hammer. Yes, it's dangerous, but also consider that Ness has a 25% chance of the hammer head falling off and being completely open to a match ending move. Also note that if you're playing as Kirby or Koopa, and not Marth, as stated, you already have a move that's completely capable of piercing the hammer and killing him anyway.


Yes, like I said, items add an element of randomness. But if you're such a 'skilled player' then the difference between you and a 'noob' should be more than just one stock, and even the uncommon and unfortunate bomb on your head won't make a real difference.

Items do not, ultimately, benefit 'unskilled' players aside from the rare 'lucky win.' Can you honestly look me in the (proverbial) face and say that when a n00b throws out a pokeball, summons Snorlax, and you crazy 'pro's get KO'd by the most predictable and easy to dodge pokemon in this whole **** game that you didn't deserve that KO?

I been playin' with items my whole **** career here, and every single KO I got from an item that wasn't a bomb or capsule on my head was completely skill related -- whether it was my lack of compensation or the extreme skill of a friend in adapting to that situation and bending it to his ends.


And, so what? You crazy kids are already saying that items in Brawl won't be tournament worthy without even knowing how spawns are going to work or the options you'll have? For the love of god if you practice a few times and learn to dodge like a man it doesn't look like any of these Final Smashes will honestly be 'random and unbalanced,' enough to be banned.

tournament match, 1000$ on the line, and you are combo-ing your opponent on his last stock... He flys arcross the level, to far to recover... But what is this, he is glowing, he must have hit an orb on the way out... He turns green, shoots back to the level, kills you, and takes the money..

Then YOU FREAKING DODGE IT AND HIT HIM DURING THE OBVIOUS COOLDOWN FROM THE MOVE. Getting back to the stage would likely shave more than enough time off of any FS to make it COMPLETELY dodgable when he manages to return. If you can't manage that you don't even DESERVE the $1000. Let alone the fact that what you're speaking of should be incredibly unlikely, and if the judges were scrupulous in this rare occurence, they'd likely demand a quick one-stock rematch.

Even the best Poker player in the world is susceptible to a game full of crappy hands, but you don't hear them complaining about how 'random the game is.' To be good they rise above it and adapt to probability. If you don't want to do that with items in Smash, that's great, but stop acting like you're making some righteous, truly skilled choice.

 

[Aeramis]

First off, the reflectors are far from useless as it is >_<
Lastly, Imagine this

tournament match, 1000$ on the line, and you are combo-ing your opponent on his last stock... He flys arcross the level, to far to recover... But what is this, he is glowing, he must have hit an orb on the way out... He turns green, shoots back to the level, kills you, and takes the money..

First off, you were talking about a smash orb and smash dojo said something about only using it once. Once per game, once per stock, or once per smash orb is still unknown. So if it is once, that limits you to save it for when you really need it which is a good strat. If your opponent happens to get one that appears right where you sent him and hasn't used one yet but gets sent to far out to make it back. Sounds like unless your a moron he is dead... None of the final smashes I seen move you threw the air other then pikachus and I think he dies if he doesn't have ground under him like they showed on dojo. Even if some character could make it back with that. What's to say it will hit you or that you can't jump out of the way or shield/dodge it. Some may even have bad recovery animation that allows you to own them if they miss. So like I said wait till the game comes out before you judge it.

 

[Espy Rose]

Please read the whole thing before posting. I can sense too many Smashn00bs are going to post the exact same textbook response. Go to another items thread if you want to be lazy. (Posthing this WHOLE paragraphs makes the n00bs A.D.D kick in and they leave)

It seems to me, that all the items and AT updates are being completely ignored. Mostly due to the fact that people say items won't be in competive play. Also, many people are pissed at the fact that Samus will need to use a Smash Token in order to become ZSS. Meaning, that in competetive play ZSS won't be used. Should ZSS simply not be able to be played competitively because someon said "OMG Final Smash is cheepz! sum1 ban them!!"

Aren't all these assumptions based on what is tournament legal in Melee? Items were cut because of the randomness and unfair advantages that they might cause right? But at the same time good item use was built into the game (Smash throwing, catching, reflecting, etc) but there were aspects of it that were broken. Things like the random explosive boxes, capsules, all bomb Party Balls, etc.

Shouldn't the game's items be vigorously tested in every circumstance in Brawl before they are put out of general tournament play? Or specific items integrated for a better play experience, like the Smash Ball?

Why shouldn't the Final Smashes be used for Tournament Play? You read about, and a lot of people want them to be Tournament Legal. If you can only use them once per game how could that be overpowered? Maybe the Tournament Stock could be increased to accomodate for such a thing. Just because the Smash Ball might be an "Item" (even though on SmashBros.com it's not listed as an item} does that mean it should be turned off? Final Smashes are an awesome idea that shouldn't be completely ignored just because they might be labeled an Item. And Item is a bad word around here. More bad than **** **** **** and mother****er. A Final Smash could be at worst half as overpowered as a shine.

I think it's relatively stupid to automatically rule out items or Final Smashes before the game is even out, which is what a lot of people are already doing, simply based on how gameplay was in Melee. I think since the game is built around the characters, and the items, that they shouldn't be ruled out automatically.

Also, it adds even more strategy and mindgames to the mix. And really, do you all want to miss out on each of your favorite character's Final Smash just because people are too lazy to analyze what should be done about items, Final Smashes, and tournaments?

I'm not at all saying that Items should be used in Melee's tournament scene, I'm just saying if they were less broken, would all the top players still be at the top? Don't you think that items will add and even more enriching playstyle to the game? Don't you think that Sakurai and his team are working out some of the kinks that Melee's items had? Do any of the items so far seem broken or overpowered? Yeah, you can't really tell yet can you.

All that I AM saying, is that items should be tested and considered, or we might possibly have a broken tournament scene that consists of players who are too closed minded to opt for a playstyle that takes even MORE critical thinking and strategy.

Would all the of top tier characters remain so if they're over powered combos could be interrupted via items? I think items CAN add balancing.

*Prepares to be flamed to hell because of all the anti-Item Melee'ers are using Melee's items as a stardard to a different game.*

To your entire post:

Um...Duh!

I thought what you posted was common sense to everyone here....

 

[Empy]

Hmm.. I'm not too sure about the smash-balls, they should obviously be tried, but, it might make one character too powerful, I think at this point, we don't know enough to draw any conclusions. What I think would be a good solution though, is to have 2 seperate tournaments. One with items (excpet overpowered ones) and one without.

 

[Espy Rose]

Hmm.. I'm not too sure about the smash-balls, they should obviously be tried, but, it might make one character too powerful, I think at this point, we don't know enough to draw any conclusions. What I think would be a good solution though, is to have 2 seperate tournaments. One with items (excpet overpowered ones) and one without.

We have a winner!

 

[:034:]

How about we wait until this game is out till we start making rules about this game?

And seriously people. This is the BRAWL section. It's about SPECULATION. If you want to discuss about items in Melee, go to the MELEE section.

*Rent-A-Mod is kickass!*

 

[Aeramis]

How about we wait until this game is out till we start making rules about this game?

And seriously people. This is the BRAWL section. It's about SPECULATION.

Agreed. That's what I been saying.

 

[Lemon Drop]

I never go to tournaments but I have to say items do make it unfair in a match. I prefer to play with them off because of skill. Though sometimes I play with them on. Though if random capsules/crates/barrles didn't explode half the time in Brawl, they might have a chance.

 

[Crispy4001]

Items add extraneous variables to the equation. Random occurrences go against the purpose of fair competitively play because the outcome of a match is not 100% dependent on who is the better player.

There's no way of getting around it, allowing items adds "luck" as a factor. The amount of luck that has an effect on the match may vary, but it's still there and therefore should be eliminated.

 

[Aeramis]

I never go to tournaments but I have to say items do make it unfair in a match. I prefer to play with them off because of skill. Though sometimes I play with them on. Though if random capsules/crates/barrles didn't explode half the time in Brawl, they might have a chance.

It has already been said that capsules/crates/barrels will not explode anymore for Brawl by smash dojo and yes, all items add too much chance in Melee for tournament play which is why items have no place in major tournaments that try to see who is the most skilled player.

 

[PrinnyFlute]

It has already been said that capsules/crates/barrels will not explode anymore for Brawl by smash dojo and yes, all items add too much chance in Melee for tournament play which is why items have no place in major tournaments that try to see who is the most skilled player.

I think you meant to say, the small amount of chance added in by items in Melee is more than you'd prefer for the type of competitive match you'd like to play, and that you'd prefer a Street Fighter-esque character-only version of Smash. You know, which is cool. If you like to play that way, great.

We'll just have to wait and play Brawl to see how items handle. Tournament goers might even prefer Melee to it, depending on how it turns out.

 

[Linari Sabre]

wow prinny you beat me to it in that last post you've had

And to add I've been in many situations like that you mentioned before whew
that takes a hell of alot of skill to deal with that

 

[Aeramis]

I think you meant to say, the small amount of chance added in by items in Melee is more than you'd prefer for the type of competitive match you'd like to play, and that you'd prefer a Street Fighter-esque character-only version of Smash. You know, which is cool. If you like to play that way, great.

Not really, I just mean that the reason the rules for tournaments are without items is because any type of randomness takes away from skill and the point of a tournament is to use the set of rules that allows the least amount of luck. I am not saying it doesn't take skill to use items. I am saying items spawn randomly which has nothing to do with skill other then maybe trying to control the biggest part of the stage so you have a higher % chance to obtain the item.

 

[PrinnyFlute]

Not really, I just mean that the reason the rules for tournaments are without items is because any type of randomness takes away from skill and the point of a tournament is to use the set of rules that allow the least amount of luck. I am not saying it doesn't take skill to use items. I am saying items spawn randomly which has nothing to do with skill other then maybe trying to control the biggest part of the stage to you have a higher % chance to obtain the item.

Random spawns are still the only real randomness that cannot be accounted for when it comes to playing with items. I don't think the point of any tournament, really, is to cut out randomness and luck completely. It's simply that the majority of Smash tournaments want to play the game in a character based competition mode. Items add abit of randomness, but they also add multiple layers of strategy that, honestly, changes the game completely. The difference between items and no items isn't just the addition of chance: they're entirely different ways of playing.

Which is basically my entire point: they're just different ways of playing. They take different skillsets. With the addition of chance (and like I said, not that much chance,) and the array of items that come with it the focus becomes more about flexibility and having a keen, inventive mind. With items stripped away, you come away with a really different type of game. One that's focused much more heavily on physical and mental acuity and rigid character knowledge and reflexes. Like the difference between surviving in the city and wilderness, you're going to have different experiences with both.

You can definitely have a fair tournament with chance included, what it really comes down to is how much you want included. How do you think any real world game works? Is baseball or golf suddenly not a deserving competitive sport because of sudden, possible, quirks of the wind or weather?

I just get sick of hearing people complain about how cheap and lame items are. (Especially when they follow it up with some lame example about how they got killed by some pokemon or something.)

 

[MookieRah]

The problem with items is that they are a double edged sword. Items could, in some cases, eliminate camping because it gives characters without a projectile the ability to toss **** at someone that is camping. I know it would definitely help the CF vs marth matchup in which if Marth camps it makes the matchup incredibly hard for CF to approach. Toss in some items and then it gives CF the possibility of more options.

Another thing to keep in mind, if items are on it doesn't mean that the playing field would be saturated with them. Even in melee when items were allowed they were set to very low. So there would only be the occasional item being tossed around, and if they disallowed any of the broken items (bombs, pokeballs, hammers, etc) then they wouldn't take away from your traditional no-items battle.

At the same time, like it has been stated, items still present another random element. There is also the possibility of it creating a lot more camping scenarios. While camping still won't make someone win (it never has been an impervious stratgey) it definitely isn't welcome by most smashers.

The best way to go about it is to not instantly assume that we should remove items if we have a lot of control over them.

One last thing:
This all applies to Final Smash as well. Someone said "If any item isn't allowed in the game it will be the smash orb." I believe on the contrary, that if any item is in brawl then it would be the final smash. Why? Because it limits itself to once per match. It would only break down if only a few characters could use them well to the point that it only served to cause massive imbalance.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Hmm, interesting idea and I do believe that if those changes were made items would be viable in tournament play. However doing so would ruin competitive matches. Why?

Competitive matches are all about trying to win. There is no honor and no limits to what can you do. Each player does their best to gain an advantage over the other. If players knew the spawning locations and frequency of items each player would try to camp in a respective place, waiting for an item to spawn in order to gain an advantage through it. It would become a horrible camp-fest and although fair, ruin the spirit of Smash.

There wouldn't be camping. If you one FD, and you know the 1st item will be center of the stage in 30 seconds, then there will be no camping. Explain how in that scanerio there would be camping?
The items would spawn, in order, in a patern, meaning, you can't camp for an item hpoing to get one first. it wouldn't work like that.

 

[Superstar]

Random spawns are not the only thing chance related with items, but which item comes out as well. And about the 25% chance of hammerhead, that is another element of luck. Even a slight amount of luck can upset in a tournament. Sure, items can take some skill to use, they are not completely skilless, but relying on your character's moveset requires more skill without that same amount of luck. Even without items in there is still luck in tournaments. The arwings in Corneria, stichface turnips, and G&W's hammer.

Also, like _Phloat_ mentioned, items would make Fox that much more deadly.