Items, Final Smash, and Tournament Play

[GreenKirby]

There's more random factor to Smash anyway than just items.

Peach- pretty much uses items anyway what's with her vegetables and all. And a veggie spammer is a much annoying than the occasional Bob-omb. So why isn't Peach banned?

People keep talking about the exploding capsule excuse. But seriously, just try throwing the container straight up and then shield yourself when it comes back down. If it doesn't explode, okay then. If it does. you were shield so you'll remain fine and your shield won't even break.

And what is it with saying items help the less skilled player more, if it's completely random? For all you know, in the history of Smash, the better items appeared the better player usually overall.

And being a true skillful player will that you can handle situations no matter how random and come out fine.

The only thing that is truly 'lucky' is the random Bob-omb drop and you could just put that on very low.

 

[DonkeyPirate]

its not really a matter of skill. items can determine the victor in an unfair matter that cant be compared to counterpick stages or characters.

 

[THEmSHAKE]

I agree with your statement. While some other respectable people on here will disagree with you on the basis of the randomness of items, we should take a minute to look deeper into testing items as you say.

Items that can be countered within reason should be aloud I think. Take hearts for example. Nothing you can do to counter them so just remove them. Now, what about mines (maybe not best example). Someone throws a mine. Well, you both knows it there so both are going to try to throw or hit the other into it. Sounds even. Also, there are ways to counter the hammer.

All he's saying is that maybe we can broaden our horizons a little with some thought and effort. Can you really say that it is 100% not possible? Maybe later you can. But if you say it now, you're wrong. Unless you already have a copy of brawl you lucky dog you.

 

[vincentninja68]

You know what I think would be nice? If there was an option to have all characters start with their final smash at the beginning of the match, that way, anyone can use their final smash at anytime. Knowing when and how to use it, adds stratagy. Just a thought..

 

[worldjem7]

I'm not too sure about other items making it to Competitive play, but if there's one item that SHOULD be in competitive play it's the Smash Ball. Because it's a reasonable item (don't give me bullcrap about randomness) you can only use it once, so once you use it you can't use it anymore. Not only that but then Zero Suit Samus would be unable to play in competitive play, and I'm sure that when Brawl is released a LOT of people will like to play as ZSS/Zamus, so then there will be too many complaints to hold down Smash Ball as a restricted Item.

I say: Leave Smash Ball (aka Final Smash) in and debate the rest (meaning possibilities of adding other items in competitive play)

 

[Drik Khaail]

I agree, like bad stages, bad items can just be turned off, like hammer, life container, and starman, those are really some of the only bad ones... most anyother items can be countered, and could push the low tiers a little higher up... such as mewtwo, being able to dash and attack with an item like lips stick, and ness to absorb lasers and stuff, etc... and final smashes couldnt be any trouble, it could add a lot of interest to the game... I guess...

 

[hectichobo]

I think all items should be legal... Because its possible to dodge/block anything...

 

[Perfect Hero]

lolol the CONTRAdiction!!!

QFMFT

Please do not mention stuff like "items will ruin the spirit of smash" and "it becomes a camp fest".

1. I want to be able to use whatever is in the game to win, eliminating item just because you think it is random is stupid.

Not to mention Poker, one of the most random games ever having consistent placers each time. Skill is skill, if you can't handle some randomness then get your mindset straight scrub.

2. Who cares if its a camp fest? Competition is about playing to win, not about fun. Again if you think COMPETITION is about fun then go home scrub. Casual play, go have as much fun as you want. 3s has alot of randomness and alot of camping, guess what, consistent placers again. . .

I seriously do not see the problem. . .

 

[XDead Sexy]

My take on the whole item use has always been 1V1's no items and 4 players items cause i mean 4 players is hectic and i cant tell whats going half the time anyway atleast for me so lets why not blow each other up in the process in a 1V1 situation someone could easily get an advantage with items 4 players no really can have an advantage and they can just get tripled teamed right after so thats how i usually do it.

 

[worldjem7]

Competition is about playing to win, not about fun. Again if you think COMPETITION is about fun then go home scrub..

If you don't have fun playing a game then why play it?

Obviously you're going to have fun playing the game (whether it be casual or competitive) because if it wasn't fun then no one would play.

Unless you have very low self esteem and you play a game you don't have fun in to win and boost your ego. But even then there's a huge downfall because what if you lose a lot? You'd be playing a game you don't like and trying to win at it only to lose so then you're only creating a world of pain and anguish for yourself.

I know what you're going to say and I know people want to win, but that doesn't mean that they don't have fun playing the game and trying to win.

"Fun" isn't just ******* around with the game being all relaxed, you can still have fun being competitive too and if you don't see the fun in getting better at a game than you like to play then I'm sorry.

3s has alot of randomness and alot of camping, guess what, consistent placers again. . .

I seriously do not see the problem. . .

Wtf? this part makes no sense

 

[Takeshi245]

I argee, worldjem7, but please let this topic die. Please.

 

[_the_sandman_]

Well items shouldn't be ignored just yet. Its a shame when so many people are against the items Sakurai is giving us just because they religously support the "Tournament Rules".

I can understand some tournaments allowing items and other removing them. But its a shame when every tournament removes them, which eventually leaves many players to despise items. Items give extra flavor to the match, and its true some items are unfair, others help characters gain some advantage.

If items were allowed in tournaments, but some were banned, I would be happy with that. I can see some items like Hearts, Hammers, Pokeballs, Bob-ombs, and Home-Run Bats being removed from an item tournament. But keep in the Smoke Balls, Bumpers, Super Scopes, Franklin Badges, and Banana Peels.

Final Smashes can be debatable. I'm all up for them myself. Many fighting games have a special attack (Ex: Marvel vs Capcom) and they are tournament legal. So why not Smash Bros? Some characters need the ability to unlease their most powerful attacks in order to win.

I mean looking at Melee, Kirby could have really used items.

 

[Perfect Hero]

If you don't have fun playing a game then why play it?

Obviously you're going to have fun playing the game (whether it be casual or competitive) because if it wasn't fun then no one would play.

Unless you have very low self esteem and you play a game you don't have fun in to win and boost your ego. But even then there's a huge downfall because what if you lose a lot? You'd be playing a game you don't like and trying to win at it only to lose so then you're only creating a world of pain and anguish for yourself.

I know what you're going to say and I know people want to win, but that doesn't mean that they don't have fun playing the game and trying to win.

"Fun" isn't just ******* around with the game being all relaxed, you can still have fun being competitive too and if you don't see the fun in getting better at a game than you like to play then I'm sorry.



Wtf? this part makes no sense

I will adress in bold.

First bolded part: Do you ACTUALLY think that I have the same fun you do? Do you think I play the game for your type of fun? No. Please read sirlin's article on scrubs.

To answer though, MY type of fun, I repeat MY, is the clash between two people at their very bests within the games rules to see who can use what it takes to win.

I DON'T care about "WHOA THAT WAS TIGHT" type of crap. I'd rather lose and it be a good match then have some striped down game just because the community think its too random. And please. . .do not use "it is not fun" as an arguement. YOUR fun ISN'T universal. So stop thinking it is.

Second part will be underlined. . .

Wtf? Go read sirlin's articles. I do not have your type of fun, my type of fun or when I'm having fun is when I know I've improved, etc. The point: my type of fun is self improvement. Losing alot will help you. . .unless you're a stubborn scrub.

Bolded part again. . .
I don't get it? It's like you are saying "having fun" and "winning" are exact opposites. Of course I have fun playing the game. Why else would I be playing it? I also have fun winning. So I play to win. Why would I get mad because someone "did a cheap move". Only scrubs think that and that's what I see many posts here are. Self improvement ftw?

Underlined. . .
"Fun" isn't just ******* around with the game being all relaxed, you can still have fun being competitive too and if you don't see the fun in getting better at a game than you like to play then I'm sorry.

Um WTH? I do have fun playing the game, I do have fun trying to play to win. I do have fun getting better. YOU sir, are assuming items will take away from this, I sincerely disagree since almost every post in here has said something along the lines as this "it'll be more random".

And that is why I gave a GOOD example.

Here it is.
"Originally Posted by Perfect Hero
3s has alot of randomness and alot of camping, guess what, consistent placers again. . .

I seriously do not see the problem. . ."

Since you do not read or read it too fast. . . I'll explain it with more sentences. . .
3s=Steet Fighter 3: 3rd strike, thus 3s. . .
The game is has alot of random elements to it BUT it also adds a different kind of depth and requires a different strategy. Why does it have these random elements you ask? The parry. . . That changes everything and technically "on paper" 3s is a broken game because if you can parry, you basically negate EVERYTHING. That game upped the defensive portion of the game, a term you guys at smashboards call turtling, which I guess it is.

So 3s has BOTH turtling/campfests AND a lot of randomness. Guess what, extremely consistent placings in SBO and mainly the good players place over and over again. I see adding items, just like adding parry pretty much the same thing taking place.

Now on to poker. . .
Poker has alot of mindgames/yomi whatever you want to call it. It is also an EXTREMELY random game but guess what. The people who go to poker tours place consistently again.

I seriously do not see what is the problem with keeping/adding items if it won't affect tournament play. Do you honestly think some random pro is gonna lose to me just because an item hit them. No.

 

[worldjem7]

Lol it's funny how you assume that I'm a scrub and that I'm talking about Items.

I was addressing your statement concerning "playing to win" and "fun" (hence why I quoted you).

You said in your post that "playing to win" and "fun" are 2 different concepts.

Competition is about playing to win, not about fun.

I was merely pointing out that they are both one in the same, that you can have fun playing to win.

Another thing, did I at all mention once anything about Items? or ways of thinking? or different ways to have fun? No, I don't think so. All I said was "Fun". That could be any kind of fun to anyone. Where you get off calling me a scrub and assuming that I have a merciless distaste for Items is beyond me.

And how dare you assume what I am thinking. You have no idea who I am or what I believe in. All you're doing is making this huge assumption that I am a scrub and start talking down on me like you know everything about me. This is very offensive to me and I would appreciate it that you carefully read my post (and any others you may have misread) and think about what exactly I'm talking about.

I quoted you for a reason: to show what it was I was talking about but, you seem to have ignored the first quote seeing as how you went on and on about "different kinds of fun" and "people don't think the same as you". I know full well that not every one will have the same views, opinions, and ways of thinking as I do and I have no idea why you are criticizing me so much about something that I'm not.

Now this:

"Fun" isn't just ******* around with the game being all relaxed, you can still have fun being competitive too and if you don't see the fun in getting better at a game than you like to play then I'm sorry.

If you had actually read AND understood my statement, then you would see how I'm not a scrub because, as I see in your post, we think alike! lol

I know the fun in getting better at a game, at "playing to win", and thinking up strategies to counter other peoples' strategies. Which is why I said that in my first post.

Again:

YOU sir, are assuming items will take away from this

I never once said anything about Items.

And thank you for clearing this up for me:

Originally Posted by Perfect Hero
3s has alot of randomness and alot of camping, guess what, consistent placers again. . .

I seriously do not see the problem. . .

I much appreciated your explanation, although the reason why I didn't understand it wasn't because I read it one way or another. It was because of "3s" I did not know what this meant; now I do. Thank You.

By the way, out of curiosity, I did take a look at "Sirlin's Article on Scrubs" and all it did was make me realize more what I already know now.

 

[Grmo]

Look, this is absurd. Items will simply not be allowed in normal tournaments, and nothing will change that. I'm sorry to break it to you, but tournaments are more about testing your skill against other players than really having fun. That's that friendlies are for, and I find items in friendlies to be pretty fun sometimes, because that's what you do in a video game. You have fun, and there is a very distinct line between fun and tournaments.

If you can't realize that then you probably aren't ready for a tournament and shouldn't be posting about competative play. How can you not enjoy casual gaming?

PS. Using "sir" in arguments means you suck.

 

[JeffMan]

Exactly. Tournaments are about skill -- the best player should win tournaments. That's the whole point of a tournament: to determine who is the best player, and when there's money on the line, award him (or her? girls play smash?) for it. Regardless of how much skill can be encompassed in using items, it's limited and you simply cannot judge a player's skill on how well they can use an optional feature such as items. And again, regardless of the skill involved with items, they STILL ADD RANDOMNESS AND LUCK, no matter HOW you look at it or describe it, it's FACT.

When there's a matched between two players of different skill, the better player should win. That's the entire reason that we play sets of 3 in tournaments, not just one match. Adding items compltely defeats the purpose because the matches just end up being a random mess. To really decide who's better, you would have to play at least a best of 7 or 9 set. And who the hell is gonna wait that long? I, for one, wouldn't enjoy losing a set (for money, mind you) to a slaphappy unskilled Kirby player who manages to sneak the final KO with a conveniently-placed exploding thing.

Turning items off eliminates the random and luck factor as best possible, to keep tournaments matches as absolutely fair and competitive as possible. Likewise can be said for stages with crazy stage effects, and that's why we ban Icicle mountain for chrissake.

 

[Grmo]

That's my strategy: make a point, leave it to Jeffman to argue it ^_^

 

[Perfect Hero]

SNIP

This is what I said.

"Competition is about playing to win, not about fun. Again if you think COMPETITION is about fun then go home scrub.."

Am I wrong?
Competition is about the I dont know competition? Playing to win?
My point and I'm not sure if you are going to agree or disagree with me is that smashers here, in this thread, are debating on why items should be in or not.

That is why I said this.

"Competition is about playing to win, not about fun. Again if you think COMPETITION is about fun then go home scrub.."

What is the point about debating the "fun" factor in competitive play? Let me repeat/reword so you don't get the wrong idea.

Pro Items people say that items adds a new kind of depth, etc.

People who don't want items(I'm generalizing(sp?) here) say items are TOO random and will promote campfests which is NO FUN.

That is why I said this again. . .

"Competition is about playing to win, not about fun. Again if you think COMPETITION is about fun then go home scrub.."

Who cares if YOU(not saying you specifically) have fun?

With that being said, I provided examples and reasonings why items not being included is flawed.

Problem Number 1 with items-It adds randomness.

Answer to that problem with examples-Poker AND 3s has lots of randomness in the game yet maintains consistent and deep enough for competitive play. Problem negated. . .

Problem Number 2 is campfest/no fun

Competition=Play to win Casuals=Take out your items if you think it is "no fun".
Problem negated?

And thank you for clearing this up for me:

I much appreciated your explanation, although the reason why I didn't understand it wasn't because I read it one way or another. It was because of "3s" I did not know what this meant; now I do. Thank You.

By the way, out of curiosity, I did take a look at "Sirlin's Article on Scrubs" and all it did was make me realize more what I already know now.

It's cool, my fault on the acronyms. But see Smashers, should player other games, it "might" help with their game and help them realize Smash isn't so much different from traditional fighters.

You should read the whole online book, soooo goood.

Again:

I never once said anything about Items.

Heh sorry about that, my scrub alarm just breaks everytime someone mentions fun when we are talking about competitive play.

If you had actually read AND understood my statement, then you would see how I'm not a scrub because, as I see in your post, we think alike! lol

Guesso. . .

Long post but a question, what is your stance on items?

Ninja Edit:

Exactly. Tournaments are about skill -- the best player should win tournaments. That's the whole point of a tournament: to determine who is the best player, and when there's money on the line, award him (or her? girls play smash?) for it. Regardless of how much skill can be encompassed in using items, it's limited and you simply cannot judge a player's skill on how well they can use an optional feature such as items. And again, regardless of the skill involved with items, they STILL ADD RANDOMNESS AND LUCK, no matter HOW you look at it or describe it, it's FACT.

When there's a matched between two players of different skill, the better player should win. That's the entire reason that we play sets of 3 in tournaments, not just one match. Adding items compltely defeats the purpose because the matches just end up being a random mess. To really decide who's better, you would have to play at least a best of 7 or 9 set. And who the hell is gonna wait that long? I, for one, wouldn't enjoy losing a set (for money, mind you) to a slaphappy unskilled Kirby player who manages to sneak the final KO with a conveniently-placed exploding thing.

Turning items off eliminates the random and luck factor as best possible, to keep tournaments matches as absolutely fair and competitive as possible. Likewise can be said for stages with crazy stage effects, and that's why we ban Icicle mountain for chrissake.

LMFAO

So you mean, which person has the better skill. . .in a stripped down, modified version of the game?

That is like taking PARRY from 3s and saying it'll elminate some randomness and luck factor.

Please, the same applies, 3s is STILL CONSISTENT with parry even if parry adds randomness.

Really, what is the problem with items again? Luck? Randomness? If you want answers, I'll repeat them.

 

[MookieRah]

Since you do not read or read it too fast. . . I'll explain it with more sentences. . .
3s=Steet Fighter 3: 3rd strike, thus 3s. . .
The game is has alot of random elements to it BUT it also adds a different kind of depth and requires a different strategy. Why does it have these random elements you ask? The parry. . . That changes everything and technically "on paper" 3s is a broken game because if you can parry, you basically negate EVERYTHING. That game upped the defensive portion of the game, a term you guys at smashboards call turtling, which I guess it is.

The better players here recognize strategies as such. We don't John if someone is being overly defensive, we deal with it. There is a reason why the more dominate strategies are a good mix between offense and defense.

So 3s has BOTH turtling/campfests AND a lot of randomness. Guess what, extremely consistent placings in SBO and mainly the good players place over and over again. I see adding items, just like adding parry pretty much the same thing taking place.

You are wrong about the randomness that you are talking about. There is a vast difference between an item appearing on the screen at a bad time that makes it advantageous to one character over another, just because he happened to be in a luckier position at a time. Parrying, on the other hand, takes A HELL OF A LOT OF SKILL. By referring to parrying as random, you OBVIOUSLY don't understand the entirety of the skill that is involved in PREDICTING YOUR OPPONENT. There isn't anything outside of the characters taking place in 3rd Strike, and this is one of the most ridiculous leaps in logic I have ever seen in defense of items.

Also, turtling strategies and camping is NOTHING compared to what you can do in smash. Seriously... No other fighting game has elaborate levels like melee. Also, your freedom of movement is much more than a traditional fighter. There are stages that are banned because fox and falco literally CANNOT lose on certain levels if they got one hit and evaded the entire match. Can you even begin to do this in any other fighter? Hell no.

Smash is not a traditional fighter, so stop trying to make it sound like items and levels have ANYTHING to do with 3s or any other standard fighting game out there.

Now on to poker. . .
Poker has alot of mindgames/yomi whatever you want to call it. It is also an EXTREMELY random game but guess what. The people who go to poker tours place consistently again.

Poker is GAMBLING. Regardless of the fact that there is tons and tons of skill in this game, AND that it is played professionally, it is still GAMBLING. There is a vast difference between this and EVERY other sport, yet you choose to bring this up in fighting games. I'm sure that the best consistantly rank high, but I'm **** certain that the winners are more randomized than many other competitive games.

I seriously do not see what is the problem with keeping/adding items if it won't affect tournament play. Do you honestly think some random pro is gonna lose to me just because an item hit them. No.

No, a pro would beat you regardless, but if it is a match between two relatively even players and there are random elements that could sway the match, there is no way to get an accurate measure of who is truly better unless you strip the random elements.

Perfect Hero, your heart is in the right place. I think that we shouldn't rush to ban items this time around either. There were more reasons why items were banned in melee than just the stuff I said, but that might not be true in Brawl. However, you should realize that not all items are fair from a competitive viewpoint. What if you were playing as bowser, and fox picked up the hammer. Please, tell me how you would avoid getting hit on a stage like FD? Surely you realize that some items are overpowered, and they exist for the fun that is FFA and casual matches. Tournament matches aren't casual, nor should they be. Money is on the line as well as pride. Would you like victory stripped from you by your opponent grabbing a heart that appeared right next them them at the last second?

 

[JeffMan]

Problem Number 1 with items-It adds randomness.

Answer to that problem with examples-Poker AND 3s has lots of randomness in the game yet maintains consistent and deep enough for competitive play. Problem negated. . .

Poker REVOLVES around randomness and how well you can play the random cards you're given. You simply cannot compare this to Melee, where items are just an addon. If Melee was entirely about sitting on a stage, waiting for an item to spawn and throwing it at the other guy, without any other elements of play whatsoever, then this would be the case. Unfortunately, the goal of Melee is to knock the other person off the stage, not to sit there and wait for an item and use it well. Example negated.

Here's a better example: wrestling. All theories of it being fake or not aside, it's about how well you can knock out the other guy, correct? What if one guy was completely owning and about to win but, all of a sudden, somebody throws a folding chair into the ring? It lands beside the guy who's about to lose, he picks it up, and knocks the leading guy out cold. You can't turn around and call that person skilled because a folding chair managed to randomly appear beside him, and he managed to whack it against othe other guy.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

I think... this is up to the tournament organizers, and what they could do is have two brackets, one with a set of certain items, and one without. Better yet, some people here could host their own tournaments. What I believe is that with online tournaments on the horizon, more tournaments with items will be available, and one can easily choose the kind that you want to play without all of us getting in each other's way.

I look forward to playing seriously and competitively on both.

 

[Ignatius]

I once saw a guy counter a Peach on starman.
Crazy s*** I tell ya.

I lot of people hate certain characters, yes, but items are intergral to the way the match will be played.
I mean;
It's the last stock for both. 30 seconds on the clock.
Marth and Ness our both on extreemly high percentages. Marth runs in to smash Ness one last time, but out of sheer luck, a hammer comes in from of Ness suddenly. He picks it up, and Marth gets destroyed.

That's pretty **** fair for a trournement, right?
...right?

Hammers weren't even that great in Melee, the reason they were banned was the Hammer head was an amazing projectile. Aside from being able to shield grab hammering characters(some times, character specific), running to a place they can't reach with a single jump, or even ledge camping; Hammers were not as great as you think. Marth could even counter it, another option.

i played my friend like 3 weeks ago with items and he didsnt know any advance stuff at all. but there were mad items on. in the confusion of all the items and explosions i was only able to 1 stock as opposed to 3-4 stocking him everytime otherwise. that is why items are banned...peace

-hiroshi

You're bad with items, don't confuse it as much as items make it a lot more random; even on very high item frequencies against others on my floor, even with random characters, I only lost once all of last year alone playing with items. Why can I use items well? Because I used to play tournaments with items way back when, and you needed to know how to use everything the best you could, and how to control the items and the stage so that you could control majority of spawn points of items.

I never go to tournaments but I have to say items do make it unfair in a match. I prefer to play with them off because of skill. Though sometimes I play with them on. Though if random capsules/crates/barrles didn't explode half the time in Brawl, they might have a chance.

They don't explode that often, and it should only really matter *most of the time*(The second to last major items tournament had Eddie get eliminated by a bomb spawning in the middle of his wizard's foot), if you're throwing them down at your feet for some reason. But why would you do that with the risk of an explosion(Unless it's an egg on a yoshi stage, glitch ftw)?

Items add extraneous variables to the equation. Random occurrences go against the purpose of fair competitively play because the outcome of a match is not 100% dependent on who is the better player.

There's no way of getting around it, allowing items adds "luck" as a factor. The amount of luck that has an effect on the match may vary, but it's still there and therefore should be eliminated.

Let's Ban Peach, Luigi and G&W cause they bring in luck, also Pokemon Stadium is clearly unfair too, FoD, and Dreamland 64, too much luck there. Oh wait, even with luck being a factor on all those stages, they're still neutral.

The problem with items is that they are a double edged sword. Items could, in some cases, eliminate camping because it gives characters without a projectile the ability to toss **** at someone that is camping. I know it would definitely help the CF vs marth matchup in which if Marth camps it makes the matchup incredibly hard for CF to approach. Toss in some items and then it gives CF the possibility of more options.

Another thing to keep in mind, if items are on it doesn't mean that the playing field would be saturated with them. Even in melee when items were allowed they were set to very low. So there would only be the occasional item being tossed around, and if they disallowed any of the broken items (bombs, pokeballs, hammers, etc) then they wouldn't take away from your traditional no-items battle.

At the same time, like it has been stated, items still present another random element. There is also the possibility of it creating a lot more camping scenarios. While camping still won't make someone win (it never has been an impervious stratgey) it definitely isn't welcome by most smashers.

The best way to go about it is to not instantly assume that we should remove items if we have a lot of control over them.

One last thing:
This all applies to Final Smash as well. Someone said "If any item isn't allowed in the game it will be the smash orb." I believe on the contrary, that if any item is in brawl then it would be the final smash. Why? Because it limits itself to once per match. It would only break down if only a few characters could use them well to the point that it only served to cause massive imbalance.

Actually, all of the items tournaments I had gone to, which were Midwest, and though I didn't go to TG, it as well ran items on Low, rather than Very Low. Because with items on Very Low, you can actually get even more imbalanced with how rare spawns can occur. It can make one item spawn have a much larger effect on a match than on Very Low. Also Pokeballs and Bombs were never banned.

Random spawns are not the only thing chance related with items, but which item comes out as well. And about the 25% chance of hammerhead, that is another element of luck. Even a slight amount of luck can upset in a tournament. Sure, items can take some skill to use, they are not completely skilless, but relying on your character's moveset requires more skill without that same amount of luck. Even without items in there is still luck in tournaments. The arwings in Corneria, stichface turnips, and G&W's hammer.

Also, like _Phloat_ mentioned, items would make Fox that much more deadly.

Pro Tip, grabbing a hammer and not moving for the first few seconds significantly lowers this chance of happening at all.

I honestly don't want items, but I'm also not going to negate the possibility of items being implemented well.

Am I the only guy that never used banned items in an anti-argument debate? Seriously it would be broke as **** if that were the case, nobody is arguing that. Do you even know what items were even allowed when tournaments had items?

Banned Items: Hammer, Star Man, Hearts, Tomatoes, Food, Super Mushroom, Poison Mushroom, Bob-ombs, Cloaking Device, Home-Run Bats, pokeballs, red shells.

Actually, from tournaments I went to back then, Hammers were banned, but among the last items banned, and because of the hammer head moreso than the hammer itself which isn't terribly hard to counter. Bombs weren't banned, nor were pokeballs.

This leaves: bunny hood, fan, fire flower, flipper, freezie, green shell, beam sword, lip's stick, metal box, mr. saturn, parasol, ray gun, screw attack, star rod, super scope, and warp star. Assuming that you could turn off barrels and capsules they would be off too.
Here is a site with all the items listed: http://www.serebii.net/smash_bros_2/items.shtml

Now, looking at what items you have at your disposal, how many of those are even worth using? How many are actually detrimental to their user? Bunny hood and metal box are garbage. Flipper is a detriment most of the time. Fire flower is garbage even when thrown. It's easy to evade a warp star. Screw attack is pretty useless unless thrown. Parasol is hindering unless you have it for recovering or throwing. Lip stick is also lame, but if you throw it and hit someone it spikes.

Agreed on Bunny Hood and Metal Box being garbage, most of the time. Fire flower was only remotely decent because you could cancel dash attack animations with it. Screw attack is actually really handy, especially if a Jiggs gets on, that's just scary. And Parasol actually isn't that bad either on some characters, but yes a lot of the time it was subpar.

The few good items would be ray gun, beam sword, star rod(not that great imo), and super scope. Most of the other items would just be used as a projectile and nothing more. The ray gun isn't any more broken than falco, and the super scope isn't hard to avoid either. Keep in mind, we should already be used to Peach's turnips when we recover, as well as Samus's charged shot from the ledge.

Another thing to keep in mind: if barrels and capsules were removable, then there would probably have been more item bans than what I listed. They would probably ban bunny hood and metal box that would just litter the stage due to them being accidentally picked up in a match, and more. It probably would have only ended up with a handful of items, none of which would turn a match upside down unless someone knew what they were doing or didn't know how to avoid it.

These items wouldn't make a TREMENDOUS difference in combat when set on very low. Yes, they are random as to what shows up, but they are in specific spawn locations and possibly on timers (I haven't checked this, so it may not be the case). A lot of characters are better off without messing with most the items, and those that are better with the items probably need all the help they can get, lol.

There will always be a slight random factor, due to the item that appears, but if that is the only factor and all the items aren't broken then it wouldn't make the game less in terms of skill than without them.

That said, I would prefer them off.

I still think that Very Low is too infrequent with spawns and can make it more unbalanced potentially. And not even a mention for Saturn/Fan usage for breaking shields?

The better players here recognize strategies as such. We don't John if someone is being overly defensive, we deal with it. There is a reason why the more dominate strategies are a good mix between offense and defense.

You are wrong about the randomness that you are talking about. There is a vast difference between an item appearing on the screen at a bad time that makes it advantageous to one character over another, just because he happened to be in a luckier position at a time. Parrying, on the other hand, takes A HELL OF A LOT OF SKILL. By referring to parrying as random, you OBVIOUSLY don't understand the entirety of the skill that is involved in PREDICTING YOUR OPPONENT. There isn't anything outside of the characters taking place in 3rd Strike, and this is one of the most ridiculous leaps in logic I have ever seen in defense of items.

Also, turtling strategies and camping is NOTHING compared to what you can do in smash. Seriously... No other fighting game has elaborate levels like melee. Also, your freedom of movement is much more than a traditional fighter. There are stages that are banned because fox and falco literally CANNOT lose on certain levels if they got one hit and evaded the entire match. Can you even begin to do this in any other fighter? Hell no.

Smash is not a traditional fighter, so stop trying to make it sound like items and levels have ANYTHING to do with 3s or any other standard fighting game out there.

Poker is GAMBLING. Regardless of the fact that there is tons and tons of skill in this game, AND that it is played professionally, it is still GAMBLING. There is a vast difference between this and EVERY other sport, yet you choose to bring this up in fighting games. I'm sure that the best consistantly rank high, but I'm **** certain that the winners are more randomized than many other competitive games.

No, a pro would beat you regardless, but if it is a match between two relatively even players and there are random elements that could sway the match, there is no way to get an accurate measure of who is truly better unless you strip the random elements.

Perfect Hero, your heart is in the right place. I think that we shouldn't rush to ban items this time around either. There were more reasons why items were banned in melee than just the stuff I said, but that might not be true in Brawl. However, you should realize that not all items are fair from a competitive viewpoint. What if you were playing as bowser, and fox picked up the hammer. Please, tell me how you would avoid getting hit on a stage like FD? Surely you realize that some items are overpowered, and they exist for the fun that is FFA and casual matches. Tournament matches aren't casual, nor should they be. Money is on the line as well as pride. Would you like victory stripped from you by your opponent grabbing a heart that appeared right next them them at the last second?

And I pretty much agree with everything you have to say there, and lol @ parries being random. Except for the ending analogy, Bowser still doesn't have any options because he's low tier and doesn't have many options generally.

Too many quotes ftl.

 

[MookieRah]

Yay, someone who is actually familiar with the original item debates. I'm tired of trying to have everyone keep an open mind and digging up stuff to present counter arguments for the sake of preventing a mass consensus to ban something just cause it was banned in the previous game.

I could have sworn pokeballs and bombs were banned. I do remember Eddie and other higher ups referring to many victories with the pokeballs due to various legendaries that just had too much of an effect on the match. I think that argument wasn't really fleshed out, cause at that point I think only the midwest was using items, and eventually the consensus switched to no items.

As far as very low goes, I thought that was what the tournaments had it at. I assumed that it was deemed the overall best way to handle items, but again, I got into the scene at a time where items were pretty much banned in general and I only got to witness some of the debating going on.

I'm honestly anti-item overall. I understand that there is skill involved with a lot of them, but it's still a very gray area when it comes to how it really affects a match. It's more than likely going to come down to the fact that items still spawn at random and present another random element. Yeah, that's kind of hypocritical in a way with some random things that exist, such as Peach, Luigi and G&W and the neutral stages that have random shifts, but that's just the consensus of the majority of players and regardless, removing as much random elements is overall the best way to go when measuring skill.

 

[Perfect Hero]

The better players here recognize strategies as such. We don't John if someone is being overly defensive, we deal with it. There is a reason why the more dominate strategies are a good mix between offense and defense.

Sure. But that goes for almost all good fighting games, a good mix between offense and defense. To look down on defense/turtling/camping is stupid though.

You are wrong about the randomness that you are talking about. There is a vast difference between an item appearing on the screen at a bad time that makes it advantageous to one character over another, just because he happened to be in a luckier position at a time. Parrying, on the other hand, takes A HELL OF A LOT OF SKILL. By referring to parrying as random, you OBVIOUSLY don't understand the entirety of the skill that is involved in PREDICTING YOUR OPPONENT. There isn't anything outside of the characters taking place in 3rd Strike, and this is one of the most ridiculous leaps in logic I have ever seen in defense of items.

Lmao. . .
Do you realize most OG players don't like 3s just because of how random parry is.
Do you realize a "lucky" parry can GUARANTEE 1/2 of your health, 100% stun, unblockables, etc?

Let me give examples for you.
1. Chun Li, random parry -> cr. mk xx sa2. Ooh, there goes almost half of your life.
2. Makoto can literally 100% stun almost any character just FROM A GRAB. A random parry almost guarantees ALOT of damage.
3. Urien, nuff said.

Those explain the above situations from a parry.
Lets add more.
Ken: parry -> cr. mk xx sa3
Ken: parry -> cr.mk -> dp -> kara dp

Also please don't act like parrying takes skill and prediction. OPTION SELECT GODDAMIT.
(For smashers who don't know what I'm talking about. . .and mookierah play more FGs.)

Also, turtling strategies and camping is NOTHING compared to what you can do in smash. Seriously... No other fighting game has elaborate levels like melee. Also, your freedom of movement is much more than a traditional fighter. There are stages that are banned because fox and falco literally CANNOT lose on certain levels if they got one hit and evaded the entire match. Can you even begin to do this in any other fighter? Hell no.

Sure you're right, and its good the stages are banned because of that because leaving the stages will cause a degenerate game, items do not.

Smash is not a traditional fighter, so stop trying to make it sound like items and levels have ANYTHING to do with 3s or any other standard fighting game out there.

Oh ignorance is bliss. Smash is VERY similar to 2d fighting games. The importance of spacing, punishment, zoning, etc both are extremely similar to 2d. Please don't act like they aren't.

Poker is GAMBLING. Regardless of the fact that there is tons and tons of skill in this game, AND that it is played professionally, it is still GAMBLING. There is a vast difference between this and EVERY other sport, yet you choose to bring this up in fighting games. I'm sure that the best consistantly rank high, but I'm **** certain that the winners are more randomized than many other competitive games.

Wow way to miss the point. I was talking about smashers complaining about randomness and I gave 2 EXAMPLES why randomness wouldn't cause the game to be ruined.

Seriously. . .

No, a pro would beat you regardless, but if it is a match between two relatively even players and there are random elements that could sway the match, there is no way to get an accurate measure of who is truly better unless you strip the random elements.

Yes. . .just like if a random parry is inputted during an I don't know, hadoken motion takes out 1/3 of my life. I won't worry, theres always the next match.

Perfect Hero, your heart is in the right place. I think that we shouldn't rush to ban items this time around either. There were more reasons why items were banned in melee than just the stuff I said, but that might not be true in Brawl. However, you should realize that not all items are fair from a competitive viewpoint. What if you were playing as bowser, and fox picked up the hammer. Please, tell me how you would avoid getting hit on a stage like FD? Surely you realize that some items are overpowered, and they exist for the fun that is FFA and casual matches. Tournament matches aren't casual, nor should they be. Money is on the line as well as pride. Would you like victory stripped from you by your opponent grabbing a heart that appeared right next them them at the last second?

I agree, some items HAVE to be banned in order for the game not to degenerate, but taking ALL OF THEM out just because it is "random" is stupid.

P.s. Parrying does take skill, but not the way you are saying it. Parrying alot of things in the game aren't reactive at all but just a mix of guessing, option select, sggk and more stuff. In the end though, still a guess and I can't tell you how many times I've gotten a parry off of inputting a DP motion.

I stand by my analogy of taking out parry in 3s would be the same as taking out/leaving in items. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Items(some) aren't broke.

Double P.s. I understand why items had to be taken out in melee(exploding crap) but in brawl, if we had a ban list of stages, why can't we have a ban list of items. Equality ftw.

Triple P.s. If you need video examples of random parries winning a match, I'll hook them up.

 

[JeffMan]

Let's Ban Peach, Luigi and G&W cause they bring in luck, also Pokemon Stadium is clearly unfair too, FoD, and Dreamland 64, too much luck there. Oh wait, even with luck being a factor on all those stages, they're still neutral.

You didn't even counter the guy's argument. He's perfectly right: matches should have the least randomness involved as possible, and banning items and crazy stages helps.

So what if Peach has a 1 in whatever hundred shot of pulling out a Bom-omb? So what if Luigi gets a misfire sometimes? So what if G+W can sometimes get a #9 hammer? The only way to prevent this is to simply ban the characters from tournaments, and that's would just cause more trouble than it's worth.

I can't tell if youre being sarcastic or not about the stages, but here it goes. The random happenings on those stages aren't damaging and they don't get in the way of gameplay. If you're trying to say that the Pokemon stage transforming can be exploited for luck, or the frigging platforms on FoD moving up and down can, then that is a really weak argument. You're really stretching it here.

The point here is that the factor of luck with with items is MUCH greater than that involved with the stages and characters you mentioned. You're just comparing "IS it luck?" when you should be comparing "HOW MUCH luck?".

 

[greenblob]

The thing is, there are two different types of randomness--game induced and player induced. When people say, "randomness is bad," they're talking about game-induced randomness. The players have no control over what happens, which is why it's bad. Player induced randomness, which is the same type of randomness found in "Rock, Paper, Scissors," is good (the main problem with RPS is that that's the only thing that goes on in the game). Sometimes this comes under the idea of "mindgames." Why isn't this bad? Well, first, people can't be completely random--they can be "read." Second, the players, rather than the game, are in full control over the situation.

Game-induced randomness should be taken out, if possible, without going overboard. Sometimes you can't get rid of it without taking out something else. Items are the perfect example--items enrich the game, but they're random. The same goes for several stages. After years of testing, we came up with the current tournament legal rules, and while I miss several things, in general I think that the current setup is doing a decent job.

 

[Perfect Hero]

The thing is, there are two different types of randomness--game induced and player induced. When people say, "randomness is bad," they're talking about game-induced randomness. The players have no control over what happens, which is why it's bad. Player induced randomness, which is the same type of randomness found in "Rock, Paper, Scissors," is good (the main problem with RPS is that that's the only thing that goes on in the game). Sometimes this comes under the idea of "mindgames." Why isn't this bad? Well, first, people can't be completely random--they can be "read." Second, the players, rather than the game, are in full control over the situation.

Game-induced randomness should be taken out, if possible, without going overboard. Sometimes you can't get rid of it without taking out something else. Items are the perfect example--items enrich the game, but they're random. The same goes for several stages. After years of testing, we came up with the current tournament legal rules, and while I miss several things, in general I think that the current setup is doing a decent job.

Great read.

But I have to stand by my point, is the randomness so bad that you have to take it out?

Random games have and do have consistent placers, even Rock, paper, scissors has a competition. Doa with it's "random" counters that take 1/4 of your health if you guess wrong is random also. Consistent placers still.

I do not see the problem.

Another thing, items may help with balancing, bowser may be able to stand up to fox with certain items, etc.

Okay, so if certain items add randomness, why not create a ban item list that will cause the game to degenerate. I'm sure not all items are viable for tournament play but that doesn't mean all items aren't viable.

FYI though, I was very anti item untill I started playing more and more fighting games and seeing other people's opinions on them. I play a wide load of them, albeit not competitively on some but I can get through with the randomness .

 

[JeffMan]

Another thing, items may help with balancing, bowser may be able to stand up to fox with certain items, etc.

But the thing is, if the Bowser can't beat the Fox player without items, he shouldn't win with the items, either. That defeats the purpose of the better player winning the match idea.

 

[Pelenclerk]

Who here has a problem with bumpers? Could they really make the match so unfair?

 

[greenblob]

The idea that items balance the characters: well, if character A has a crappy fsmash and character B has an awesome one, and there exists an item that makes their forward smashes relatively the same, then of course the balance changes. And considering that a character doesn't need a good fsmash to be good, and if the item gives the character a very good fsmash, the item could actually end up breaking the balance, in its worst case scenario.

The thing about randomness (and I'm talking about game induced) is that it subtracts from skill. I'd prefer that randomness as a whole is taken out of the game (so for example, the wind blows left, right, left, right, etc. in a timely fashion in Dreamland 64). If randomness were a part of the game, of course better players will still end up getting consistent placings, but still, it allows lower level players to shine, abeit undeservedly.

 

[Flare233]

I'm getting the feeling that Sakurai is going to add a new special mode like "Final Smash Mode" or something, where the final smashes are used by building up a power meter or something. Trust me, he did this before with stamina mode, giant melee, etc. No one was expecting those. I don't think Sakurai would put so much work into final smashes without letting us play around with it.

Does anyone catch my drift? Do you agree that this may be a possibility?

 

[Ignatius]

Yay, someone who is actually familiar with the original item debates. I'm tired of trying to have everyone keep an open mind and digging up stuff to present counter arguments for the sake of preventing a mass consensus to ban something just cause it was banned in the previous game.

I could have sworn pokeballs and bombs were banned. I do remember Eddie and other higher ups referring to many victories with the pokeballs due to various legendaries that just had too much of an effect on the match. I think that argument wasn't really fleshed out, cause at that point I think only the midwest was using items, and eventually the consensus switched to no items.

As far as very low goes, I thought that was what the tournaments had it at. I assumed that it was deemed the overall best way to handle items, but again, I got into the scene at a time where items were pretty much banned in general and I only got to witness some of the debating going on.

I'm honestly anti-item overall. I understand that there is skill involved with a lot of them, but it's still a very gray area when it comes to how it really affects a match. It's more than likely going to come down to the fact that items still spawn at random and present another random element. Yeah, that's kind of hypocritical in a way with some random things that exist, such as Peach, Luigi and G&W and the neutral stages that have random shifts, but that's just the consensus of the majority of players and regardless, removing as much random elements is overall the best way to go when measuring skill.

Pokeballs were never actually banned in west coast or midwest, especially when MattDeezie was such a fan of them as well, and him being one of the biggest tournament hosts at the time. Some of the time, getting to an item was a huge risk for a character, and lots of items were left on the ground for that reason, the risk wasn't worth the potential, whereas pokeballs were kinda random in that respect, you can really be rewarded for getting one, or get a goldeen. Even so the good ones are very rare to come by when you actually have a good setup to use them to their potential. And Bombs were never banned either.

I agree that in melee, items are better off, yes there is skill to using them, yes playing is different when using them and stage control is even more vital.

You didn't even counter the guy's argument. He's perfectly right: matches should have the least randomness involved as possible, and banning items and crazy stages helps.

So what if Peach has a 1 in whatever hundred shot of pulling out a Bom-omb? So what if Luigi gets a misfire sometimes? So what if G+W can sometimes get a #9 hammer? The only way to prevent this is to simply ban the characters from tournaments, and that's would just cause more trouble than it's worth.

I can't tell if youre being sarcastic or not about the stages, but here it goes. The random happenings on those stages aren't damaging and they don't get in the way of gameplay. If you're trying to say that the Pokemon stage transforming can be exploited for luck, or the frigging platforms on FoD moving up and down can, then that is a really weak argument. You're really stretching it here.

The point here is that the factor of luck with with items is MUCH greater than that involved with the stages and characters you mentioned. You're just comparing "IS it luck?" when you should be comparing "HOW MUCH luck?".

If matches should have the least randomness possible, shouldn't that be none? Your argument as a whole doesn't make sense so there's no way to counter it. The least possible randomness is no randomness, meaning you would ban those characters because they're random aspects, so how random is too random? Aside from it being precedent, what reason do you have for drawing the line where you do?

Stages apply to this as well, getting transformations that favor your character in pokemon stadium can occur, you could have a rock come up and let you walltech a hit that you should have died too. It's random, according to the logic you're backing of taking all randomness out of the game, it should be banned.

These things affect tournament matches all the time, especially FoD platforms rising and falling affect how long you can chainthrow for, they all have a significant impact on the match. So why wouldn't you be arguing for those to be banned if you want to play with the least amount of randomness?

 

[Flare233]

While everyone is arguing about items, could someone read what I said? Maybe if this mode is in the game and could be switched to stock mode it could become the new tournament standard.

 

[MookieRah]

Oh ignorance is bliss. Smash is VERY similar to 2d fighting games. The importance of spacing, punishment, zoning, etc both are extremely similar to 2d. Please don't act like they aren't.

How many traditional fighters have platforms, ledges, and revolve around knocking your opponent off the level and not taking out a health bar. I'm not acting like there aren't similar aspects, but you are acting like they are virtually identical when they are not.

Virtually no other fighting game has levels that are as diverse.

Wow way to miss the point. I was talking about smashers complaining about randomness and I gave 2 EXAMPLES why randomness wouldn't cause the game to be ruined.

I don't care if you used 30 examples, but poker is just a bad example. As far as I'm concerned, Greenblob refuted your other example. To expound further, regardless of the setup for 3s and it's crazy option select, it is done via player, and is not something that is outside the players control, which items are. A mistaken input does not equate to a random item spawning.

Okay, so if certain items add randomness, why not create a ban item list that will cause the game to degenerate. I'm sure not all items are viable for tournament play but that doesn't mean all items aren't viable.

There is an item ban list, I dragged one from the graves and Ignatius refined it with a more common item ban list. It would be assumed that if items were in Brawl tournaments then they would be monitored and some would be banned. I misinterpreted your position on items, cause I thought you were pro every item as opposed pro items on with banning.

I also think it's odd that you are debating for items on the basis of traditional fighters, when the japanese players themselves are even more strict on levels that reduce random elements than the states are. Seeing how much the US fighting game culture is related to the Japanese equivalent, it's kinda strange to see you debating against what most fighting purists would probably be for when it comes to competitive smash. This paragraph isn't a debating point against you, I'm just stating that it's definitely not what I expected.

I'd like to restate that while I'd rather not have items on in Brawl I also wouldn't care all that much, as long as we moderated the items well enough.

 

[Perfect Hero]

But the thing is, if the Bowser can't beat the Fox player without items, he shouldn't win with the items, either. That defeats the purpose of the better player winning the match idea.

"Originally Posted by Perfect Hero
Another thing, items may help with balancing, bowser may be able to stand up to fox with certain items, etc."

The idea that items balance the characters: well, if character A has a crappy fsmash and character B has an awesome one, and there exists an item that makes their forward smashes relatively the same, then of course the balance changes. And considering that a character doesn't need a good fsmash to be good, and the item gives the character a very good fsmash, the item could actually end up breaking the balance, in its worst case scenario.

The thing about randomness (and I'm talking about game induced) is that it subtracts from skill. I'd prefer that randomness as a whole is taken out of the game (so for example, the wind blows left, right, left, right, etc. in a timely fashion in Dreamland 64). If randomness were a part of the game, of course better players will still end up getting consistent placings, but still, it allows lower level players to shine, abeit undeservedly.

That is assuming the item helps the good fsmash.

Randomness will let the lower level player win 2 times in a row(2/3 matches)?

Lemme repeat my example, 3s. Random yet still consistent.

Also the parry DID add randomness, I can present sources if need be, BUT it also addeded different amounts of depth to it. ie. the fireball -> uppercut strat was weakened but newer strats came up. That is what I'm talking about.

Parry may have added randomness but ALSO added depth. I see the same with items. If you disagree, I will respectfully disagree with you but if you disagree and talk about "fun" and randomness=/= consistent, then I won't. Simple as that.

For now I'm done with this debate since neither side doesn't think they are wrong.

In all honesty though, I see items not being used in competitive play in brawl not for the sole reason that it is random, but the "image" of items from melee gameplay makes smashers take a natural dislike towards items. My thoughts.

 

[FoxxehRoxxeh]

Yeah, the Zamus player won't be able to use their character because Final Smashes are 'too strong'

Have a tournament section that allows Final Smashes, then the Zamus players won't be dissapointed.

 

[greenblob]

As for the best two out of three thing, I said it's possible, although not probable. But the more probable that becomes, the worse it is, IMO. Also, when the skill levels are very close yet noticeable, randomness could easily become the main deciding factor, which again is bad.

And in the hypothetical item scenario, the assumption was that the item gives both characters a very similar forward smash and neglects their original fsmashes altogether.

No one's saying that items don't add depth. They do, but again, they add randomness as well.

 

[Perfect Hero]

How many traditional fighters have platforms, ledges, and revolve around knocking your opponent off the level and not taking out a health bar. I'm not acting like there aren't similar aspects, but you are acting like they are virtually identical when they are not.

I can pretty much say the same thing with any fighter. I can say their unique aspects and write it off as a different fighter. The point is that the basis of gameplay is the same. Spacing, zoning, etc are very important in smash just the same as in 2d fighters.

Virtually no other fighting game has levels that are as diverse.

I disagree but that is another story.

I don't care if you used 30 examples, but poker is just a bad example. As far as I'm concerned, Greenblob refuted your other example. To expound further, regardless of the setup for 3s and it's crazy option select, it is done via player, and is not something that is outside the players control, which items are. A mistaken input does not equate to a random item spawning.

The circumstance in which I used it does not make it bad, I used it to show that random does not mean inconsistent and that games that appear to be random still have consistent placings. Solid games indeed.

There is an item ban list, I dragged one from the graves and Ignatius refined it with a more common item ban list. It would be assumed that if items were in Brawl tournaments then they would be monitored and some would be banned. I misinterpreted your position on items, cause I thought you were pro every item as opposed pro items on with banning.

It's alright.

I also think it's odd that you are debating for items on the basis of traditional fighters, when the japanese players themselves are even more strict on levels that reduce random elements than the states are. Seeing how much the US fighting game culture is related to the Japanese equivalent, it's kinda strange to see you debating against what most fighting purists would probably be for when it comes to competitive smash. This paragraph isn't a debating point against you, I'm just stating that it's definitely not what I expected.

Heh, believe me, I don't really care if items are in SSBB or not. I just do NOT like the examples people used and intervened that's all. I didn't like items in melee but I do have an open mind and hope items can be used in SSBB. If they aren't going to be used in competitive play. It loses randomness and some sort of depth but it's okay. I love smash afterall, as do all of us right?

Also I'm not Japanese although I respect them, my opinion might be different from them and I'm sure some Japanese have the same mindset as me. We are the minority afterall .

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FwP6yD72WQA

A vid of what can happen if you get parried

^has nothing to do with anything but I hope someone sees it and starts playing another fighter.

 

[greenblob]

How does the parry in Third Strike work? Is it like Power Shielding, or is it something that randomly happens when you block?

 

[worldjem7]

I get what you mean now Perfect Hero but, then wouldn't that only work in favor of the non-items position? Because if competition is supposed to be serious then wouldn't you want the gameplay to be as pure as possible? If you use dynamic items like pokeballs, bob-ombs, motion sensor bombs, Heart Containers, etc. then it tilts the game WAY too much in favour to the person who picks up the item. Although if you just use BASIC items like Beamsword, and Lip's Stick, then it could be a bit more acceptable. But, anyway I see a lot of long posts and I am very very tired so I won't be posting for a bit. Honestly, I'm on the fence for Items so I'll just watch what you guys say and see what happens. But for brawl there are some Items I think should definately make it to tournament play. Things like: Smash Ball and Franklin Badge. Smash ball for FS cus it's like everyone gets their own Super move and I believe that it's storable based on the Mario FS update and the Franklin badge to help cut down on total camp-fests like samus just spamming her missles or Falco spamming laser or the Links spamming all their stuff.
Also, I think the Smoke ball should be in competitive play for the sole reason that it's totally harmless, you can't get hit by the smoke ball nothing happens to anyone if you throw it so it couldn't be used as a projectile just fog up the screen and help with mindgames.

well anyway, there's my 6 and 1/2 cents for the next day or 2.