Items, Final Smash, and Tournament Play

[Aeramis]

MookieRah beat me to it, but I will say it in my own words anyway.

To PrinnyFlute: Well, if you ask anyone that goes to major tournaments, "Would you rather play a game against others for money that has more random chance involved or would you rather play a game against others for money that has the least amount of random chance involved?" Most all of them will probably answer least amount of random chance. If you like playing with items for fun. That is fine but trying to get MLG or something long the lines of that to change their rules to add more of a random out come into the mix, even if it is a very little random outcome. Example: Items on very low and alot of them turned off. People might end up winning cause they were simply lucky when if that item was not there at that exact time, they would have lost.

"One last thing:
This all applies to Final Smash as well. Someone said "If any item isn't allowed in the game it will be the smash orb." I believe on the contrary, that if any item is in brawl then it would be the final smash. Why? Because it limits itself to once per match. It would only break down if only a few characters could use them well to the point that it only served to cause massive imbalance."

Yay, someone cool who agreed with me!

 

[Eaode]

Wow. I see this all the time now. People who argue for items, they make no sense.

This will be my post to end all posts rebutting to the item-supporters....



It doesn't matter what scenario I use. It doesn't matter what rebuttal or solution you have to my scenario. It does not mater that you think matches should degenerate into an item spawn camp-fest. No, in reality, none of that matters.


The only thing that matters is that
ITEMS ARE RANDOM


The point of a tournament is to see who out of all the combatants is most skilled in this game. Thus, our tournaments have stripped items because they add randomness to the match and take away from the pure skill based type of competition that is needed.

I've heard ******** arguments that it "takes skill to use items". While that itself is true enough, it takes absolutely no skill for the item that appears next to you to be a bob-omb as opposed to a wobbofet. It's really dumb for people to say "well if you're so skilled why can't you dodge the (bob-omg/final smash/snorlax/etc.). People can. But that fact that now you randomly give one player that possibility to do that to the other is unfair.


It is probably a very small chance that an item occurance is going to completely decide a match. But that random element is still persistant and it's even more likely that they will sway the match in more subtle but still unfair ways.


"items only add so much randomness to a match"

^^ are you serious? that's honestly your argument? You're completely right, items add so much randomness to a match. That's why we don't use them, not because we just don't like the other playstyle or whatever.

Remember that items once were a part of tournaments, then they were banned because they were deemed unfair.



Seriously, no mater what you say, items are still random. No matter to what degree. We want the match to be more based on pure skill. And while items add new skills that must be mastered, they also add a considerable luck factor, that is not acceptable.


By the way, what are you trying to do or prove? anyone that hosts a tournament decides their own rules. Most people use a standard but that doesn't mean it's actually standard. If you want tournaments with items then make a tournament with items. If people wanted items in tournaments, they'd put items in tournaments.

 

[The Hypnotist]

I want everyone to answer this question


If items spawned in a consistant order and time, crates capsules etc. could not explode you could control the frequency of eah seprate item (meaning you could make bombs appear 3 times less often than fans), whould items be possibly allowed in tournment play?

If your answer is no, them you are simply a bias player, and do not want the rules to change because you don't want to learn anything new.

I'm tired of hearing "money on the line and someone lands on a smash ball!!!!"

WHAT IS THE ITEMS HAVE CONSITITAT SPAWNS?! If so tehre's no problem. It doesn't mean items would always be in play. But it'd be interesting if you could counter pick items.

 

[Aeramis]

I want everyone to answer this question


If items spawned in a consistant order and time, crates capsules etc. could not explode you could control the frequency of eah seprate item (meaning you could make bombs appear 3 times less often than fans), whould items be possibly allowed in tournment play?

If your answer is no, them you are simply a bias player, and do not want the rules to change because you don't want to learn anything new.

I'm tired of hearing "money on the line and someone lands on a smash ball!!!!"

WHAT IS THE ITEMS HAVE CONSITITAT SPAWNS?! If so tehre's no problem. It doesn't mean items would always be in play. But it'd be interesting if you could counter pick items.

If it were like that maybe some tournaments might do that because it is preset and has nothing to do with luck. I for one would find that style of play not as much fun in general. Also you deal with the problem of taking the time to preset the items before every match which would waste alot time if it was customizable.

 

[Eaode]

So you're saying if every item spawned in a specific spot and had a constant timer?

So if you played a 2 minute match on FD and charted all the items and times down, and did the match again, it'd be the exact same thing both times?

If so, then technically they'd be fair, but there would be SOOO much camping it wouldn't be funny.

And casual player would catch onto it everntually and get bored.


The thing is, Hypnostist, that the whole PURPOSE of items it to be random. think of in terms of casual players, who are the main target audience. Items are there to make the match exciting and surprising. Take out randomness, and casual players will sit there bored and say "oh here comes that warpstar again *sigh*"


So if what you're suggesting actually happened, yes, items would finally be fair and probably allowed in tournaments. But the fact is that will never happen

 

[MookieRah]

I honestly don't want items, but I'm also not going to negate the possibility of items being implemented well.

that appears next to you to be a bob-omb as opposed to a wobbofet

Am I the only guy that never used banned items in an anti-argument debate? Seriously it would be broke as **** if that were the case, nobody is arguing that. Do you even know what items were even allowed when tournaments had items?

Banned Items: Hammer, Star Man, Hearts, Tomatoes, Food, Super Mushroom, Poison Mushroom, Bob-ombs, Cloaking Device, Home-Run Bats, pokeballs, red shells.

This leaves: bunny hood, fan, fire flower, flipper, freezie, green shell, beam sword, lip's stick, metal box, mr. saturn, parasol, ray gun, screw attack, star rod, super scope, and warp star. Assuming that you could turn off barrels and capsules they would be off too.
Here is a site with all the items listed: http://www.serebii.net/smash_bros_2/items.shtml

Now, looking at what items you have at your disposal, how many of those are even worth using? How many are actually detrimental to their user? Bunny hood and metal box are garbage. Flipper is a detriment most of the time. Fire flower is garbage even when thrown. It's easy to evade a warp star. Screw attack is pretty useless unless thrown. Parasol is hindering unless you have it for recovering or throwing. Lip stick is also lame, but if you throw it and hit someone it spikes.

The few good items would be ray gun, beam sword, star rod(not that great imo), and super scope. Most of the other items would just be used as a projectile and nothing more. The ray gun isn't any more broken than falco, and the super scope isn't hard to avoid either. Keep in mind, we should already be used to Peach's turnips when we recover, as well as Samus's charged shot from the ledge.

Another thing to keep in mind: if barrels and capsules were removable, then there would probably have been more item bans than what I listed. They would probably ban bunny hood and metal box that would just litter the stage due to them being accidentally picked up in a match, and more. It probably would have only ended up with a handful of items, none of which would turn a match upside down unless someone knew what they were doing or didn't know how to avoid it.

These items wouldn't make a TREMENDOUS difference in combat when set on very low. Yes, they are random as to what shows up, but they are in specific spawn locations and possibly on timers (I haven't checked this, so it may not be the case). A lot of characters are better off without messing with most the items, and those that are better with the items probably need all the help they can get, lol.

There will always be a slight random factor, due to the item that appears, but if that is the only factor and all the items aren't broken then it wouldn't make the game less in terms of skill than without them.

That said, I would prefer them off.

 

[PrinnyFlute]

Random spawns are not the only thing chance related with items, but which item comes out as well. And about the 25% chance of hammerhead, that is another element of luck. Even a slight amount of luck can upset in a tournament. Sure, items can take some skill to use, they are not completely skilless, but relying on your character's moveset requires more skill without that same amount of luck. Even without items in there is still luck in tournaments. The arwings in Corneria, stichface turnips, and G&W's hammer.

Also, like _Phloat_ mentioned, items would make Fox that much more deadly.

Relying on your character's moveset entirely does not take more skill than adapting to a screenful of chaos. Complete bunk. It just takes different skills in general.

I never really meant to say most items didn't have elements of chance. Just that random spawns are the only 100%, unaccountable piece of randomness that you get when you play with items. Almost every other example of item use is based more around knowledge of probability and risk than simple luck.

Honestly, in all seriousness: random exploding spawns are the only thing differentiating the amount of luck required in high level item play in Smash from the amount of luck in high level, say, Poker tournaments. When you play a game like Poker, you aren't at the mercy of chance; you're working with it, probing probabilities.

Using a hammer in tournament play and having the head drop off isn't an example of 'omg luck not skill,' it's example of a risk taken knowingly by the player. If you can't afford to open yourself for the possibility of wielding a dangerous item for about fifteen seconds, then just don't pick the item up. Shuffle it off stage, keep your opponents from getting it. Hell, if you're a character with a good anti-hammer strategy, LET them get it.

Playing with items requires this kind of quick situation judgement, and any failure thereof is pretty much the fault of the player.

And, well, AeramisWolf. Tourney goers are obviously going to say they don't want items. That's what they're used to. That's what you want to do. That's fine. That's great. If -I- ran a freaking $1000 tournament with items on, you can be sure there would be precautions against the 'random occurances' that some people so fear.


...Dood. And seriously. Eaode. Way to not listen to a god**** thing anyone's saying. Way to come in here and say the same biased bullcrap everyone's been saying forever. Listen now, please, child. Listen. I don't care how you play. I'm not telling you you should play with items. I'm not telling you your tournaments are wrong.

All I'm saying is that you folks should shut the **** up with all your whiney crap about how 'cheap and random' items are, when in reality the only issue here is that you just don't want to play with them on. Almost every other mother effing competitive game on the planet has some form of random elements, so kindly get off our backs for saying it doesn't mean we're any less skilled for prefering a few in this one.

I imagine items were deemed inappropriate because people were just growing more towards one way of playing. People were focusing on their crazy character skills and got tired of bombs falling on their heads now and then. And hey, that's fine.

Luck isn't one sided. The entire reason luck works is because it works for everyone. Yes, someone who has a deadly weapon spawn at their feet is pretty lucky and has an advantage. That doesn't mean you won't get another, similar advantage in the next five minutes. Matter of fact, if you're decent with the situation, you can even turn it to your advantage. Sometimes having a bomb thrown at you or an opponent grab a hammer can be a major windfall.

You want your matches based on Street Fighter-esque reflex mastery skill. Not just SKILL OMG LOLLZ flatout. It takes an entirely different kind of skill to ride the wind. To get the most out of it when it's good and weather it efficiently when it's bad. There's a different type of strategy for almost any item you can get, including dependance on what character you're playing as and who you're targetting.

The only non-skill related item event completely based on chance is basically having something spawn in your face and kill you. And I admit that it's an unfortunate incident.

But my entire freaking point is that it's different. There's a small, flawed random element to it, but for the most part matches are won by successful prediction and riding the waves of probability. I'm not saying there isn't a chance things might go sour when a match is close, but it's a risk I'm willing to take to play Melee (and Brawl) in a form that's infinitely more appealing to me.

My entire ****ing point is to stop knocking it. Does it bug you when item users pop up and say HAY TOURNEYS R GAY CUZ U DONT USE ITEMS THATS BORING?

Yeah, I thought so. So how the hell do you think I feel when an entire freaking forum of players keeps telling me to my face that despite all my work I'm still subpar just because I don't want to play the game the same as you. Layoff.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Um...woah.

Nicely worded PrinnyFlute. I couldn't have said it better myself. I think it would take MORE skill to have items on, than it would to have items off because not only would you have to deal with your opponent, but you have to account for the randomness of items and work accordingly with whatever situation happens to occur.

 

[PrinnyFlute]

Um...woah.

Nicely worded PrinnyFlute. I couldn't have said it better myself. I think it would take MORE skill to have items on, than it would to have items off because not only would you have to deal with your opponent, but you have to account for the randomness of items and work accordingly with whatever situation happens to occur.

Thanks. But...don't say things like that and make things worse than they already are! Hehe.

I dunno, I'd probably counter that training with items would cause a player to be less focused on the characters and more on the entire battlefield, which grows the skillset in a different way, like I said.

 

[Eaode]

Way to get really hostile.

I don't care how you play either. You can play with items. For all I care you could go start a whole bunch of tounries with items and get tons of people to come.


The only "biased Bullcrap" I said was that items are random, no matter how you spin it.


So whatever, you can keep arguing that I hate you or look down upon you in some way, while in reality I don't. In every thread that this discussion has occured, it's always the item-supporter who gets hostile and accusing the other of being elitist and forcing them to play that way.


Keep arguing away in the Brawl boards. The ones who will really decide if items make it into major tournaments are BRoomers.



But I repeat, if you would love to have a tournament with items on, go ahead. No one is stopping you. I'm kust saying that in my honest opinion I wld rather play without the luck factor that items bring.



PS. Why do you compare smash to Poker? Poker is all about chance, and the only real skill involved is bluffing and proper betting. In poker once the hands are dealt you won or lost already, the only thing to decide is how much you lose or win.

Smash is a fighting game, not Poker

 

[Takeshi245]

Way to get really hostile.

I don't care how you play either. You can play with items. For all I care you could go start a whole bunch of tounries with items and get tons of people to come.


The only "biased Bullcrap" I said was that items are random, no matter how you spin it.


So whatever, you can keep arguing that I hate you or look down upon you in some way, while in reality I don't. In every thread that this discussion has occured, it's always the item-supporter who gets hostile and accusing the other of being elitist and forcing them to play that way.


Keep arguing away in the Brawl boards. The ones who will really decide if items make it into major tournaments are BRoomers.



But I repeat, if you would love to have a tournament with items on, go ahead. No one is stopping you. I'm kust saying that in my honest opinion I wld rather play without the luck factor that items bring.



PS. Why do you compare smash to Poker? Poker is all about chance, and the only real skill involved is bluffing and proper betting. In poker once the hands are dealt you won or lost already, the only thing to decide is how much you lose or win.

Smash is a fighting game, not Poker

Way to say it, Eaode.

 

[Aeramis]

To PrinnyFlute: I have read all of this topic so far and I still don't see what your replying for... If you want to play with items on, go for it... More power to you.

I myself play with items on from time to time for fun and something different but what the hell are you trying to get across to everyone here? These are the main points I have gathered so far...
You: Items take just as much skill as playing without Items, it is just in a different type of skill.
Me: If your saying this then yes, it is true that it takes alot of skill either way but the REAL point we are all saying is that your way has luck involved more then our way and we don't like to play like that for tournaments. Simple enough no need to complain or lose it when you hear people saying they don't like using items for this and that reason...

You: Items make a player have to know the chances of what the items do and where they will appear in order to be good a.k.a. skill. Like poker. Also how to counter items.
Me: That is true in a sense but still it goes back to it being luck with spawning... Even knowing the odds and knowing how to use items at the best humanly known possible doesn't mean you win everytime because the other player can still get lucky. Which doesn't work the same without items other then some character's movesets and level hazards. That is why we dislike "Luck".

You: With items on it can take skill to adjust to the chaos.
Me: Duh... but it still doesn't take into account equal fairness of who was really better which is the point of all fighting games unless your just messing around for fun...
Example#1: Bomb lands on me more times then it did you for the whole match which sways it in your favor.
Example#2: I could be getting ready to counter your smash attack meaning you were charging it and I go to hit A button to hit you with a quick attack and an item appears that I pick up instead giving you the hit...
Example#3 I could be owning you with skilled combos and when I go to finish you and you get a heart. Your damage % goes back to 0...
Example#4 Bunny hood pops up right near you and you get it. I then hit you far enough away that without the bunny hood you wouldn't have made it back..
Example#5 I go to hit you and a box/barrel/capsule appears where I was about to hit and I blow up.. same with starman, warpstar, pokeball, food, hammer, turtle shells, Ect. ect.. ect...

I could go on forever with all the luck involved things that items unbalance the match with.

You should just chill out and play the way you want and not get worked up that the majority of people like playing without items because of the randomness factor.

 

[Superstar]

Um...woah.

Nicely worded PrinnyFlute. I couldn't have said it better myself. I think it would take MORE skill to have items on, than it would to have items off because not only would you have to deal with your opponent, but you have to account for the randomness of items and work accordingly with whatever situation happens to occur.

It wouldn't really be more skill. If the items are too random [set to very high], then it detracts from character movesets and revolves around item use, and being good with a character is much more difficult than being good with an item. If the items are set low like tournaments of the past and had some off, it'd be better just to turn them all off.

I'm not saying items are completely skilless, but as it has been stated its the randomness that drives me nuts. And plus that I just don't really like items. Even before learning about competitive smash I loathed items, they were too random, and felt gimmicky in a way. They are great for casual matches, but I don't have a casual mindset, people say I'm too serious about videogames.

 

[NES n00b]

Items are random. Even if they appeared in a set place, then the match could change depending on WHAT item appeared. It would be sort of like the cloud on Yoshi Story. It goes around the stage at specific timed intervals and it can save or mess up a person's stock. Except this time, not everyone gets the same benefit (or disadvantages) like the cloud. Since all the items are different, there will be luck involved of who was in position to get the better item. So if someone got the better item at the right moment, that person might win from luck.

The less luck there is in tourney matches, the better (usually).

 

[PrinnyFlute]

Wow. I see this all the time now. People who argue for items, they make no sense. ... It does not mater that you think matches should degenerate into an item spawn camp-fest.
...I've heard ******** arguments that it "takes skill to use items". ...It's really dumb for people to say "well if you're so skilled why can't you dodge the (bob-omg/final smash/snorlax/etc.).

"items only add so much randomness to a match"

^^ are you serious? that's honestly your argument? You're completely right, items add so much randomness to a match. That's why we don't use them, not because we just don't like the other playstyle or whatever...

...Dude, this is what you said before I even said a word to you. Who started off being hostile, here? Who's, frankly, devolving me into a stereotypical "stupid item user" before I even get my point halfway out the door?

Yeah, look, I'll restate it after the first eight million times. I know you guys just don't like the whole luck element that comes with items. That's great. That's fine. I don't mind. I don't want you to drop items in your tournaments, I don't want you to tell me OMG ITEMS ARE BETTER!!1 I'm just sick of hearing cute little derogatory phrases that imply that playing with items off on 'tournament approved stages' is the 'true way of skillfully playing Smash.' That anyone who plays with items on as a rule must have about as much skill as a toddler holding the controller upside down.

I keep bringing up how much luck is involved because, frankly, that's my experience. I've been playing nothing but items on since the **** game came out, and I know that when we have a nightful of matches, there's rarely more than one KO the entire session that can be attributed to nothing but bad luck. I'm not trying to convince you that you should use items because of that, I'm just trying to dispel the popular myth that when you play with items on WHOAH EVERY KO IS COMPLETELY RANDOM.

If you're not cool with the occassional unavoidable KO, then it's not for you.

Like people keep saying: they don't want even a small chance they could lose a stock at an important time.
Like I keep saying: that's fine. That's how you want it, play it that way.

...And then some people say things like: We play without items because it's how really true skilled players play, and is perhaps the only real way to competitively play Smash and prove how good you are at the REAL game.
So I go: ...Excuse me?


Aeramis, and, well, anyone else who doesn't understand why I keep talking about skill with items: yes, the results are slightly affected by chance. If you don't want them to be even slightly affected, AGAIN, THAT IS COOL. I'm just trying to counter the argument that item matches are somehow a complete non-bastion of skill. 98% of your record from playing with items will be faithful to your ability. If you're willing to give up 2% of accuracy to play Smash with items, which is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT game than tournament safe Smash, then welcome to the club.

Playing Smash in "Street Fighter" mode is very much a pure fighting game, I'm sure. The poker comparison stands to prove that playing Smash with items on at high skill levels is very much about versatility and probability, as with items on it is not just a fighting game, but another beast entirely. Like Poker, or even most realworld games, Smash with items remains about adaptation to the 'hands' you're given. Whichever type of settings you prefer to play with is fine, but let's try not to be too easily dismissive of that what we don't understand.

PS- Aeramis, most of your examples seem a little exagerated.
-Bombs 'landing on you' even twice in a match is highly unusual. If you had such a match during an items tournament I'm sure you'd be allowed a rematch due to the highly unusual nature of that occurence.
-It is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that during the 50th of a second between the sudden realization to press A and the actual act of doing it that an item will both appear and be grabbable, therefor ruining your move. There's a notable delay between the spawn of most grabbable items and the actual point in time where you can grab it, and it's usually enough where the player has fair warning.
-Turn off hearts. Nobody likes hearts. There are even things you can do in this situation, such as take advantage of your opponent's mad scramble for this new fallen item. But for the most part, turn off hearts.
-This is another unlikely occurence, as I can't rightly say I've seen folks launched just the right distance to not die but still be able to use the bunny hood to return all that often. But, this is also half of the point of the Bunny Hood. You can do crap like this if the chance arises, but in the end it usually doesn't work out for the hooded one anyway. If it bugs you, turn it off. But I've never especially seen a match wholly turned around by a lone Bunny Hood.
-I've noted the exploding barrel/capsule/box thing already. This is the one truly random element that cannot be accounted for, unfortunately. As noted, when it comes to most other items, there is a delay before they can be grabbed and interrupt your attack. Worst case scenario with the items you mentioned is that a red shell appears, you smack it instead, it goes flying and starts to home back in on you when it lands...a good few seconds later. Sounds like time to react to me.

Yes, items like bombs and hammers can occasionally spawn next to your opponent if, like Mookie said, you don't turn them off. Yes, you will have to dodge. But luck is not biased, and in any given matches where your opponent is given an 'unfair advantage,' 90% of the time you'll find yourself getting one just as good if not better later in the match.

(This completely ignores the fact that some characters have moves that actually give them the advantage in situations like this.)


Honestly, if it sounds like I'm "arguing" with anyone, let me know. Because the majority of intent in my post is a simple debate that items deserve to be acknowledged as a perfectly viable form of play and not a bunch of monkeys sitting in their living rooms smacking buttons for chuckles.

 

[WoapGang]

but its not just items that create skill in a smasher! its how you used them
Its all about
Timing
Position
quickness
AND
Surprise

 

[Demon_machinE]

As far as items go...

Only if all spawns are in a consistant pattern and caspules and crates don't explode, and you can choose the EXACT frequency of each item, and still ban overpowered items. Then maybe items could stand a chance.

If all of this happened, the whole "items are random" stuff is out of the window.

Exactly. (the bolded part) If we are allowed to customize items to such a degree, and the items themselves aren't boring then I could see tournament players giving items a possible 2nd chance.

Is it just me or are the items in melee really stale and boring? I mean the items were sooo fun in ssb64 and in melee the beamsword is this tiny little thing, the homerun bat is ugly, the ray gun is REALLY ugly, the superscope we've seen has been improved... no bumpers, lame looking shells...

Personal opinion here guys, but I just don't like items at ALL in melee where as in super smash brothers 64 I found them to be a lot of fun to hurl around.

PS : I hate using items. I just throw them to make my edgeguarding easier.. nothing says edgeguarded like a beamsword to the face in ssb64!

 

[Eaode]

Well PrinnyFlute, I don't understand what your argument is then. You say you don't care if people don't want to play without items on and so things like "go ahead" and etc. but then you continually try to prove them to be completely wrong but at the same time acknowledging the really bad random factors.

I mean, we both seem to be calm about the other group playing their way, you think we'd agree to disagree by now :/

But with tis acceptance of tournament style smashers, I still don't get it. Are you just trying to argue with the people who are actaully ignorant and say that they won't play with items because it's "not the right way" or "its how the pros play" or that "every KO is completely random" or whatever? In that case, I completely agree with you. Those people are wrong.


In the end I suppose, the legal item set is really fair as far as items themselves go. I think the reason I feel so strongly about this is that half of me is actually afraid of the random factor that items will bring to important matches, and the other half of me is just afraid of the game we all love and play endlessly being changed in style so drastically. And in that point, I suppose you're a bit right, I am afraid of the change.

I just hope that if items do wiggle their way back into competitive play, that no items tournaments can so-exist with them peacefully, for those of us who want to play smash in "street Fighter mode" I just hope my area doesn't get stuck with item tournies.


Meh, I'm sorry my first post in this thread seemed angry, I guess I was just tired of this worn out debate, and many of the peoples' argument don't make muc sense to me, hence my caveats at your posts.




I'm sick of debating this all the time, and with some new knowledge on the item rulesets, it isn't that bad (although I would still not like playing with the randomness)

Agree to Disagree?

 

[greenblob]

We all agree that items add and enrich the gameplay.

However, you can't get around the randomness factor.

Of course, many random things are kept in--several stages, Peach, Luigi, and G&W are all random, and yet they're not banned. Compromises then must be made--at what point are we overdoing the banning? After five years of competitive Smash, I believe that for the most part, we're at the fine line that separates these two things. Stages sometimes vary by tournament, but a general consensus has been reached and it works well.

Now we'll just have to wait for Brawl.


As for items specifically, I think that they'll remain banned, partially because of convention, but mostly because they can be. Any major random aspects that can be avoided should be avoided.


And on the topic of "randomness" and "luck," there are two types: player-generated and game-generated. Everyone knows what game-generated randomness is--randomness generated by the game, such as the shuffling of cards in Poker. Player-generated is what occurs when you're trying to predict what your opponent is going to do. Sometimes this goes under the category of "mindgames." In keeping with the Poker example, trying to guess your opponent's facial expression could be considered player-generated randomness. The player-generated is good randomness--it's controllable and no unfair advantages are given to either player. The game-generated is the type that should be avoided.

 

[PrinnyFlute]

Well PrinnyFlute, I don't understand what your argument is then. You say you don't care if people don't want to play without items on and so things like "go ahead" and etc. but then you continually try to prove them to be completely wrong but at the same time acknowledging the really bad random factors.

I mean, we both seem to be calm about the other group playing their way, you think we'd agree to disagree by now :/

But with tis acceptance of tournament style smashers, I still don't get it. Are you just trying to argue with the people who are actaully ignorant and say that they won't play with items because it's "not the right way" or "its how the pros play" or that "every KO is completely random" or whatever? In that case, I completely agree with you. Those people are wrong.


In the end I suppose, the legal item set is really fair as far as items themselves go. I think the reason I feel so strongly about this is that half of me is actually afraid of the random factor that items will bring to important matches, and the other half of me is just afraid of the game we all love and play endlessly being changed in style so drastically. And in that point, I suppose you're a bit right, I am afraid of the change.

I just hope that if items do wiggle their way back into competitive play, that no items tournaments can so-exist with them peacefully, for those of us who want to play smash in "street Fighter mode" I just hope my area doesn't get stuck with item tournies.


Meh, I'm sorry my first post in this thread seemed angry, I guess I was just tired of this worn out debate, and many of the peoples' argument don't make muc sense to me, hence my caveats at your posts.




I'm sick of debating this all the time, and with some new knowledge on the item rulesets, it isn't that bad (although I would still not like playing with the randomness)

Agree to Disagree?

Agree'd. I'm glad this came to a peaceful conclusion. This is the first time I've spoken out about items, really, here, so I was wondering what kind of hole I was digging myself. ;P

And yeah, really my frustrations are aimed at ignorant folks who say things like that. I never meant to say anybody should play with items if they don't like them. Just they're not as horrible as most people think. Sorry for complaining to the wrong people, mate.

I'm curious to see if a basic item set will work its way into the Brawl tournaments, but more than anything I hope you guys keep doing whatever you just enjoy playing the most. Spirit of the game and all!

 

[BigRick]

Competitive matches are all about trying to win. There is no honor and no limits to what can you do. Each player does their best to gain an advantage over the other.

If players knew the spawning locations and frequency of items each player would try to camp in a respective place, waiting for an item to spawn in order to gain an advantage through it. It would become a horrible camp-fest and although fair, ruin the spirit of Smash.

lolol the CONTRAdiction!!!

 

[Aeramis]

Well PrinnyFlute, I don't understand what your argument is then. You say you don't care if people don't want to play without items on and so things like "go ahead" and etc. but then you continually try to prove them to be completely wrong but at the same time acknowledging the really bad random factors.

I mean, we both seem to be calm about the other group playing their way, you think we'd agree to disagree by now :/

But with tis acceptance of tournament style smashers, I still don't get it. Are you just trying to argue with the people who are actaully ignorant and say that they won't play with items because it's "not the right way" or "its how the pros play" or that "every KO is completely random" or whatever? In that case, I completely agree with you. Those people are wrong.

In the end I suppose, the legal item set is really fair as far as items themselves go. I think the reason I feel so strongly about this is that half of me is actually afraid of the random factor that items will bring to important matches, and the other half of me is just afraid of the game we all love and play endlessly being changed in style so drastically. And in that point, I suppose you're a bit right, I am afraid of the change.

I just hope that if items do wiggle their way back into competitive play, that no items tournaments can so-exist with them peacefully, for those of us who want to play smash in "street Fighter mode" I just hope my area doesn't get stuck with item tournies.

Meh, I'm sorry my first post in this thread seemed angry, I guess I was just tired of this worn out debate, and many of the peoples' argument don't make muc sense to me, hence my caveats at your posts.

I'm sick of debating this all the time, and with some new knowledge on the item rulesets, it isn't that bad (although I would still not like playing with the randomness)

Nicely worded and I agree with your entire post.

 

[narmerguy]

Jeesh items or not it shouldn't matter. If you feel you're extremely competitive it shouldn't matter that much. It's not like the stuff that will happen to you won't eventually happen to them. I just say keep the insane stuff out (the star for example). But seriously, all the "structure" in the tournaments. That kind of isolation of certain game elements harms some characters. But whatever, doesn't matter I'll play tournies either way. Just stop all the item *****ing.

 

[Empy]

Jeesh items or not it shouldn't matter. If you feel you're extremely competitive it shouldn't matter that much. It's not like the stuff that will happen to you won't eventually happen to them. I just say keep the insane stuff out (the star for example). But seriously, all the "structure" in the tournaments. That kind of isolation of certain game elements harms some characters. But whatever, doesn't matter I'll play tournies either way. Just stop all the item *****ing.

Well this is what this topic is about, if you don't want to discuss it, leave it only, don't go replying that we shouldn't discuss something. The boards are here to discuss and discussing item use in tournaments is clearly the meaning of the topic.

 

[Aeramis]

Jeesh items or not it shouldn't matter. If you feel you're extremely competitive it shouldn't matter that much. It's not like the stuff that will happen to you won't eventually happen to them. I just say keep the insane stuff out (the star for example). But seriously, all the "structure" in the tournaments. That kind of isolation of certain game elements harms some characters. But whatever, doesn't matter I'll play tournies either way. Just stop all the item *****ing.

Did you even read the entire topic? We have stopped ->discussing<- items vs no items for tournament play (Not "*****ing" as you put it...). Your post is only good for flame bait so, "If you don't have anything good to say don't say nothing at all."

Also to your statement of, "It's not like the stuff that will happen to you won't eventually happen to them." if your meaning during the same match you would be wrong most of the time. Someone will almost always have more luck then the other if any type of luck randomness is placed in the match. Which sways it to their favor. If you mean over the time frame of playing more then one match then yeah that is possible but just proves luck helps and hurts you randomly which disallows the higher skilled player to win at times.

 

[Justin Wiles]

Hmm, well, you know, it seems to me that we don't even know why Smash Orbs appear... do they show up when a player is getting his *** kicked? As a reward when you combo your opponent to the max and send him to his doom? Are they 100% random, or do they appear close to the player that earned it?

It seems... okay, this is speculation, but this is my logic: It seems like, if Smash Orbs were random, but you could only use them once per match, what would the point be? Bowser VS Fox or Captain Falcon, Bowser would never get to use his BACON (are we still calling them that? Ahaha!). Worse yet, Fox or Falcon would use theirs once, and continue hogging the other ones, making them a total waste.

The Dojo entry for Final Smashes would seem to indicate that the orbs are random, and you have to scramble for them, but maybe this was just for the picture? We can hope so... What I would like to see is that while Smash Orbs appear to be items, they are simply given to you by means of reward, not unlike the Street Fighter games where you build up your special metre. That would make more sense to me.

 

[THK]

Everything I would say has been covered. Drat, I was so prepared for a long *** post too. Though I did learn something new. Didn't know the lip stick spikes.

 

[Eaode]

It doesn't.

The flipper does though Haha! xD

 

[THK]

Just checked. It certainly doesn't. I think Mookie was referring to the Star Rod. Which honestly to me is the best throwing weapon in Melee.

A shame for the Beam Sword. It was THE projectile in SSB64 I say. >>

 

[Eaode]

All flipper matches are fun.


Just thought I'd get that out there.

 

[THK]

A pox on the flipper. I say it was a poor man's bumper. But the bumper is back, so I'm pleased.

 

[Eaode]

Indoubitubly. I know I spelled that wrong xD


If flipper matches are fun, than Bumper matches will be better! ESPECIALLY since they can be put in the air now. Imageine the possibilities....

 

[THK]

Indeed. One of my fondest memories is my main opponent's sister using DK and getting stuck between 2 bumpers. Now that they're improved, there'll be more fun to be had.

 

[Aeramis]

If flipper matches are fun, than Bumper matches will be better! ESPECIALLY since they can be put in the air now. Imageine the possibilities....

Yea, fun times ahead. I sure hope they keep the ability to grab items in mid-air with the Z button for Brawl.

 

[linkw00t]

It's just food for thought. Making rules for a game that isn't out is stupid.

Just remember this is about SSBB. Items change the play and skill. A skilled player should be able to use items right? Before people started not using items would no one know who the better player was?

If items aren't in, ok. If they are, then nice. But to deny Final Smash from tournaments would be a travesty.

 

[GraniteJJ]

My opinion on all items in Smash has always been that there is a method to counter every item in Smash somehow. So, if you are truly good enough, then you should be able to win regardless of whether items are on or not.

 

[Midna]

that is true. there is a way to counter all items.

 

[XenoGuard]

My opinion on all items in Smash has always been that there is a method to counter every item in Smash somehow. So, if you are truly good enough, then you should be able to win regardless of whether items are on or not.

I agree with this and the Topic Starter. Too Many competitive players don't play with items cuz anything can happen. Personally i think thats more Exciting, you gotta think on your feet or BOOM.

And yeah, every item can be countered.

 

[Adi]

If you don't think that competitive play is more fast paced and frantic than casual play with items than you really need to get a clue. There may be a counter to all items but please, do tell me what the counter is to an exploding capsule spawning mid attack.

Read my earlier post.

No matter how much customization is allowed in regards to items they will still be banned from tournament play. Items only stand to benefit the less skilled player. Think of it this way.

In a match without items we can assume that the more skilled player will win every time right? Now if we add items into the match it is irrelvant towards the more skilled player because it only solidifies his victory. However if the less skilled player happens to be lucky with items one match that is one victory on his record against a player who is more skilled than him. That is why, items will most likely never be used in tournament play.

 

[linkw00t]

Items ONLY stand to benefit less skilled players? As the English say that's rubbish. When the game first came out, if you ever played it then, and everyone still used items, did ONLY less skilled players benefit from items? I'd say the "skilled" players (that term is used extremely carelessly around here, sorry.) were at the benefit when items were concerned. A skilled player knows how to counter items that ARE counterable, and use it to their benefit, or at least Neutralize it. Now that "Skilled" player couldn't have that EXACT same advantage over the other playing using those exact same items? Is it because items spawn randomly that they add "luck"? If that's the case, then both players have an equal opportunity to get the "luck" if that's even what it can be called. All items on, is a mess yeah. But that is in fact in MELEE, MELEE, MELEE, I don't knwo how many more times I'm going to have to say it.

Brawl should be played with items, to see if it actually degenerates the gameplay. "Skilled" does not necessarily mean "Who can use their character and ONLY their character in a specific circumstance with very specific rules" yes, there are skilled players who do use these rules, but someone who has master how and when to use what item is at an advantage to someone to doesn't, just as someone who knows how and when to use a specific move or combo is at an advantage to someone who doesn't.

Skilled is NOT only limited to who can do what best with items off, stages banned, and with only 4 lives.