Items, Final Smash, and Tournament Play

[MookieRah]

@greenblob
To find out information on parrying go here: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=105542
The sad thing is that I couldn't find any information on Option Select, but after seeing a youtube video and some random posts on shoryuken, it seems like you can macro parrying movements into throws as well as other things to automatically parry into a throw. I'm not certain, but that's what I garnered from the little bit of info I found. Hopefully Perfect Hero will explain it more.

"Virtually no other fighting game has levels that are as diverse."

I disagree but that is another story.

I said virtually just in case there was an obscure game out there I wasn't aware of, but the last time I checked none of the other tournament fighting games have a level that compares to a big floating boat that has a lot of flying platforms that vary in their characteristics that, on top of all that crazy stuff, is scrolling most of the time. This is also a legal counterpick, and was once a neutral stage. Rainbow Cruise ftw.

Please show me up on this, cause I'd like to know of another fighter with ridiculous levels.

 

[Dark Shard]

The only one that comes to mind is Onimusha Blade Warriars, which is such a rediculous rip of Smash(the four players even open there slot at the buttom, pick up their peice, and set on the grid on their character...) it's saddening...

 

[Perfect Hero]

How does the parry in Third Strike work? Is it like Power Shielding, or is it something that randomly happens when you block?

Yeah it is like power shielding except power shielding has to be exact at 1 frame i think and you have to put up a shield to do it. Parrying you press either forward or down to parry within a 7-9 frame window, not sure at all though. There is also 3 types of parry. Sloppy Blue Parry, Blue Parry and Red Parry. Red parry, you have to be in block stun to get a red parry but it negates all block stun.

The thing about parry that is random though is that it is mostly guessing, option select, sggk and other parry tricks that get it done. Not to mention a single parry followed up by a combo can mean 1/2 so your life if you are playing someone good.

Don't get me wrong though, there are stuff that are braindead easy to parry. Risk/Reward for parrying is WAY to great though.

An example
Ken tries to parry j. mk from another Ken in a mirror match. Worst case scenario/risk is getting hit or throw tech. Low risk. Best case scenario is a parry -> cr. mk xx sa3 or parry -> cr. mk -> double dp. Very low risk/high reward thing.

Eh I'm not very good at explaning 3rd strike mechanics but if you want, you should go and learn the game.

I get what you mean now Perfect Hero but, then wouldn't that only work in favor of the non-items position? Because if competition is supposed to be serious then wouldn't you want the gameplay to be as pure as possible? If you use dynamic items like pokeballs, bob-ombs, motion sensor bombs, Heart Containers, etc. then it tilts the game WAY too much in favour to the person who picks up the item. Although if you just use BASIC items like Beamsword, and Lip's Stick, then it could be a bit more acceptable. But, anyway I see a lot of long posts and I am very very tired so I won't be posting for a bit. Honestly, I'm on the fence for Items so I'll just watch what you guys say and see what happens. But for brawl there are some Items I think should definately make it to tournament play. Things like: Smash Ball and Franklin Badge. Smash ball for FS cus it's like everyone gets their own Super move and I believe that it's storable based on the Mario FS update and the Franklin badge to help cut down on total camp-fests like samus just spamming her missles or Falco spamming laser or the Links spamming all their stuff.
Also, I think the Smoke ball should be in competitive play for the sole reason that it's totally harmless, you can't get hit by the smoke ball nothing happens to anyone if you throw it so it couldn't be used as a projectile just fog up the screen and help with mindgames.

well anyway, there's my 6 and 1/2 cents for the next day or 2.

Man I was gonna stop on the subject, but it keeps pulling me back.

YEEAAAH!!! [/Jacky]
That is assuming getting the item is really easy. Sometimes its another risk/reward thing like an item pops up and you are in a combo but the item is real good. You can risk getting the item for more damage OR continue the combo for semi guaranteed damage. That is the kind of depth I am talking about by the way.

/done

 

[Mic_128]

But the thing is, if the Bowser can't beat the Fox player without items, he shouldn't win with the items, either. That defeats the purpose of the better player winning the match idea.

The thing is, tiers ruin that argument. 2 people of equal skill, 1 Bowser, 1 Fox, Fox will always win over Bowser. The better person didn't win, the better character did. ITems help give Bowser some more tools to help fight, and bring the balance of characters closer together.

 

[Dark Shard]

But wouldn't the Fox use Item as well, boosting both their Net skill equally, thus resulting with exactly the same skill difference?

 

[Perfect Hero]

"@greenblob
To find out information on parrying go here: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=105542
The sad thing is that I couldn't find any information on Option Select, but after seeing a youtube video and some random posts on shoryuken, it seems like you can macro parrying movements into throws as well as other things to automatically parry into a throw. I'm not certain, but that's what I garnered from the little bit of info I found. Hopefully Perfect Hero will explain it more.

"Virtually no other fighting game has levels that are as diverse."

Hopefully someone else posts before me so I don't get a double post. Editing won't work for me

During a neutral stance, both fighters aren't doing anything at the moment, 1p(1 player) can option select(you can option select many things in this game, not just parry). What 1p does is press forward and then input the throw command. Low risk, high reward.

2 things can happen.
1. 1p gets the throw since both are in neutral or 2p blocked at the time.
2. 1p gets the parry and then instantly a throw.

That is just option select at the most basic. . .

"I said virtually just in case there was an obscure game out there I wasn't aware of, but the last time I checked none of the other tournament fighting games have a level that compares to a big floating boat that has a lot of flying platforms that vary in their characteristics that, on top of all that crazy stuff, is scrolling most of the time. This is also a legal counterpick, and was once a neutral stage. Rainbow Cruise ftw.

Please show me up on this, cause I'd like to know of another fighter with ridiculous levels."
I don't mean crazy like that. I just mean diverse. Besides it is just oppinion anyway .

But if you insist I think Doa stages are extremely diverse and all are tournament viable. Funny thing is Doa and Smash has a few things in common. Doa4 has a tatami stage that has nothing except pure tatami floor, similar to final destination and Doa3 has stages that if you fall, you can die(if you are low on health) Doa3 has alot of stage control, you manuveur around not just to SS but to avoid getting hit offstage. I love Doa3 stages a tad more then Smashs. To clear misconceptions though, I'm talking about tournament viable stages because those happened to be my favorites in Smash as well .

Also getting hit offstage in VF will cause you to lose the round.

~

I'm done guys, I'll answer topics relating to other games, but I don't want the debate to go in circles.

 

[Dark Shard]

In relation to the topic of Parrying, do we all recall the common system put to such good use in the game, "God of War"? You can block all you want but it won't matter to your attackers. Hitting the block button makes the frames where Kratos/Brawler bring up the shield. If the player is hit during these frames, the player takes no damage, and the enemy is stuck in the attack frame for a split second, when Kratos is free to use an attack. just a thought, it DOES feel a little broken for smash...

 

[Rohins]

Please show me up on this, cause I'd like to know of another fighter with ridiculous levels.

Power Stone 1 and 2 have the most involved environments for fighting games (that I've played). Unfortunately, I've never heard of a power stone tournament so I guess pointing out those games is kind of a moot point.

 

[Xaron Fisk]

nSider forums are pretty pro item. --->

 

[Kelexo]

lovely topic bump thar.

Also, I was maybe thinking Brawl items have a CHANCE to be balanced for brawl...but, this 'Golden Hammer' update seems to suggest otherwise. Owch.

 

[Rigumaro]

Items were cut because of the randomness and unfair advantages that they might cause right? But at the same time good item use was built into the game (Smash throwing, catching, reflecting, etc) but there were aspects of it that were broken. Things like the random explosive boxes, capsules, all bomb Party Balls, etc.

I agree with you. In my opinion, items make battles more interesting. Items add strategy to the game. I don't think why are they unfair. If you are a good player, you should be able to use all items strategically.

 

[Team Giza]

Power Stone 1 and 2 have the most involved environments for fighting games (that I've played). Unfortunately, I've never heard of a power stone tournament so I guess pointing out those games is kind of a moot point.

Power Stone 2 has been attempted at high levels and it turns out there just not enough depth to work with. It isn't because of the levels designs though. The environments of the level are fine in most cases because nothing is really random. Power Stone 2 diversity in levels surpass Smash's... too bad Power Stone 2 doesn't work out in tournaments for other reasons. The game system just lacks depth.

Power Stone 1 on the other hand are pretty set stages. Sure there are guns firing, weird hazards in the level but nothing is moving. You can use the surroundings in different ways each level. So power stone 1 is near the diversity of Smash bros, and can be played competitively. I love Power Stone 1.

Still most fighting games don't have much level diversity. Even games like DoA. They lack slopes and they just have a few knock off points. Virtua Fighter 3 is probably high on the list of level diversity.

Smash and Power Stone are the series on the top on having level lots diversity in fighting game by quite a large gap.

Super moves started in SF2 super turbo...

I think Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Tournament Fighters was the first game to have supers.