Is Project M too easy relatively?

[Mera Mera]

Also, upon thinking of the "dribbling" analogy, I thought about teching in general. What if teching was automatic? That requires specific timing and reaction, and like 99% of the time it's beneficial to tech whenever possible. How is that different? ...I'm not trying to start an argument or anything, this is actually a genuine question. Why would that be any different from making l-cancelling automatic?

There's a couple important differences between the two mechanics.

1) Teching involves reacting to an opponents actions. This means knowing your opponent's options can help you tech, and it also means if the opponent succeeds in surprising you, you might fail to tech. This is why I would argue the Marth tipper analogy made earlier in this thread fails, since spacing inherently involves knowing your opponents options and they can mess you up by being less predictable.
2) Tenaban's second point: you can bounce off a ledge and recover quicker in some circumstances if you choose not to tech.
3) Against characters that can't jab reset, the no tech option can help you avoid a grab if the character can tech chase on reaction all your current tech options. Zard's down throw on a good number of characters is a good example. If the Zard player is good at tech chasing on reaction, then he will get a guaranteed regrab in a lot of situations from all tech options but no tech.
4) There's a fail window on teching, which makes it possible to bait a tech in order to force a no tech on a later follow up. An example would be Falco looks like he'll go for a dair, but instead nairs. The person hits shield expecting to have to tech. Falco follows up his nair with a dair which now can't be teched and thus this leads to f-smash.

Note: To explain the fail window: if you hard press shield (which is needed to tech) and then hit the ground during knockback or tumble in the next 20 frames, you will tech. If you do not hit the ground in said next 20 frames, then in the following 20 frames (so frames 21-40), you cannot tech even if you hit shield again. (There's a little more to it like the game ignoring tech inputs during hitlag ect but you get the jist).

 

[SuruStorm]

Theres no real reason to not lcancel. It really is just an arbitrary button that is required, since you'd get punished for not utilizing it.

Once youve played enough it is muscle memory, but its definitely not needed. All it does is speed up our inevitable arthritis.

As someone with arthritis since a young age, I can vouch for this.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Right now there's a discussion on Smash UK about PMs tech difficulty relative to Melee.

Some seem to think that ATs being easier is a bad thing and should need plenty of practice while some don't.

What do you think? Personally I think ATs being easier is a good thing as long as it doesn't take optil s away.

Notable examples of ATs being easier:

1 frame easier to do SWD, 1 frame more lenient for short hopping and no longer need to JC USmashes.

I am not a fan of this debate topic. From playing brawl to melee, I find melee much more satisfying due to the degree of difficulty on my end of execution. Provided the execution is not to the point of being automated I do not see there being a problem. Easing of a tech shouldn't be a problem to anyone provided it is not done automatically. Otherwise, you are losing an aspect of the game to be skillful at in my opinion. Once this happens it simply becomes boring. A debate over auto-cancel aerials versus not makes sense to me since you a literally losing an apsect of the game. In regards to making Fox's SH double laser easier to complete I think is a pretty pointless debate.

 

[1MachGO]

I'm saying that there's a degree of diversity in the casual side of the spectrum. The effect of the slow part of manual l canceling has an effect on casual players. It makes them slower and less capable of approaching

You are hypothesizing a group of people who are likely to be smaller than the already somewhat niche competitive community. And again, the grand majority of "casual" players (those who meet the definition of casual) likely don't know or don't care about L-Cancelling. The mechanic has no impact on how these players enjoy the game.

Because the supposed added depth is more on the fault of the player failing to l cancel and it opens up so few, so limited new options for taking advantage of shield angling and being Ice Climbers. Beginners could be spending that effort on something else that has a bigger effect on gameplay like wavedashing

Mistakes are not the only area of depth created by L-Cancelling, and frankly, only viewing it that way is extremely shallow. As much as I'd like to humor you and elaborate on said aspects, (namely the idea of how L-Cancelling can give new players rapid gratification and potential motivation to continue learning and the mechanic's contribution to its mental/technical duality of the game) I must simply shake my head and politely explain that Melee is too dang old and its competitive scene too darn healthy to imply that the technique has any negative impact towards new players who were actually interested, and in fact, may have actually been downright beneficial.

 

[EPsilon933]

You are hypothesizing a group of people who are likely to be smaller than the already somewhat niche competitive community. And again, the grand majority of "casual" players (those who meet the definition of casual) likely don't know or don't care about L-Cancelling. The mechanic has no impact on how these players enjoy the game.



Mistakes are not the only area of depth created by L-Cancelling, and frankly, only viewing it that way is extremely shallow. As much as I'd like to humor you and elaborate on said aspects, (namely the idea of how L-Cancelling can give new players rapid gratification and potential motivation to continue learning and the mechanic's contribution to its mental/technical duality of the game) I must simply shake my head and politely explain that Melee is too dang old and its competitive scene too darn healthy to imply that the technique has any negative impact towards new players who were actually interested, and in fact, may have actually been downright beneficial.

Their aerial landing lag is slow instead of fast, weakening their approach options. Just because you don't know about something doesn't mean it doesn't affect you. Like what if someone stole your bank account info and took all of your money. You wouldn't know you'd be broke, but in actuality you're broke

Brawl players love to say "Melee's too hard" as their excuse for not picking up Melee. Having an extra button press requirement just because makes it harder unnecessarily and sure seems to have prevented them from joining the scene. What if that difficulty were gone? There'd be less punishment on them to play the game

 

[Saito]

Brawl players love to say "Melee's too hard" as their excuse for not picking up Melee. Having an extra button press requirement just because makes it harder unnecessarily and sure seems to have prevented them from joining the scene. What if that difficulty were gone? There'd be less punishment on them to play the game

They'd find another reason to complain.

List of things to kill

• L-Cancelling
• Wavedashing
• Dash Dancing
• Falco

"This is not to be taken super seriously, but does have some truth to it."

 

[Bleck]

It's not a matter of difficulty so much as it's a matter of arbitration; the problem isn't that Melee is difficult, the problem is that Melee is way more difficult than it needs to be. Melee is by far the most difficult fighting game to play, but doesn't objectively beat out competitors in terms of depth. It's just hard because of unhappy accidents, and people feel PM needs to be as hard so they can continue to feel good about themselves.

 

[the_CAM_factor]

i wish it was harder =[

 

[1MachGO]

Their aerial landing lag is slow instead of fast, weakening their approach options. Just because you don't know about something doesn't mean it doesn't affect you. Like what if someone stole your bank account info and took all of your money. You wouldn't know you'd be broke, but in actuality you're broke

Again with these far fetched analogies...

Brawl players love to say "Melee's too hard" as their excuse for not picking up Melee. Having an extra button press requirement just because makes it harder unnecessarily and sure seems to have prevented them from joining the scene. What if that difficulty were gone? There'd be less punishment on them to play the game

Did you read what I posted? Which game has a more thriving competitive scene? This "difficulty" argument has no concrete evidence which supports it; It is also too easily countered with the proposed notion of people who like difficulty... or even people who can't practice with other players frequently. Is there no merit to a strong mental and technical duality to the game?

It's not a matter of difficulty so much as it's a matter of arbitration; the problem isn't that Melee is difficult, the problem is that Melee is way more difficult than it needs to be. Melee is by far the most difficult fighting game to play, but doesn't objectively beat out competitors in terms of depth. It's just hard because of unhappy accidents, and people feel PM needs to be as hard so they can continue to feel good about themselves.

How is difficulty not another form of depth?

 

[Zone]

The only logical and REAL reason I would ever accept manual L-cancel as something mandatory. Is if there were options, reasons for why you DON'T want to L-cancel.

what if Non l-canceled aerials had some benefit that l-canceled aerials didn't?

If that were the case, then I agree to being forced to l-cancel.

But that's not the case, You pretty much NEVER want to NOT l-cancel.



The ONLY reason something should be more technical is because a button input is needed to choose an option.

In Mortal Kombat 9, Kabal has this moved called a nomad dash. It covers full screen really fast speeds like Fox's side+b. If it hits the opponent, you get a combo. If the opponent blocks it, You get combo'd.

However there is an option to cancel the nomad dash and instantly start doing other moves upon the cancel.

Because now that there is a reason to cancel, and a reason to not to cancel. I approve of it being hard because you need to push more buttons to acquire these options.

L-cancel isn't really an option. You want to do it 99.9% of the time.

I don't mind l-cancelling, I like how it feels on my fingers. But I won't act like it's some necessary thing. If you like hard for no reason, we might as well make you do a moonwalk input just to dash dance back in the other direction. that's the same argument.

 

[Bleck]

How is difficulty not another form of depth?

making something more difficult to do must make the game better ipso facto blindfolds for everyone

oh **** did someone predict that falco laser because they heard the sound of it happening mute the volume add some depth in there

dang it's like too easy to push those buttons with your fingers somebody tape those controllers to the ground and everyone else get your socks off

et cetera

 

[The_NZA]

The only logical and REAL reason I would ever accept manual L-cancel as something mandatory. Is if there were options, reasons for why you DON'T want to L-cancel.

what if Non l-canceled aerials had some benefit that l-canceled aerials didn't?

If that were the case, then I agree to being forced to l-cancel.

But that's not the case, You pretty much NEVER want to NOT l-cancel.



The ONLY reason something should be more technical is because a button input is needed to choose an option.

In Mortal Kombat 9, Kabal has this moved called a nomad dash. It covers full screen really fast speeds like Fox's side+b. If it hits the opponent, you get a combo. If the opponent blocks it, You get combo'd.

However there is an option to cancel the nomad dash and instantly start doing other moves upon the cancel.

Because now that there is a reason to cancel, and a reason to not to cancel. I approve of it being hard because you need to push more buttons to acquire these options.

L-cancel isn't really an option. You want to do it 99.9% of the time.

I don't mind l-cancelling, I like how it feels on my fingers. But I won't act like it's some necessary thing. If you like hard for no reason, we might as well make you do a moonwalk input just to dash dance back in the other direction. that's the same argument.

Should meteor cancelling be automatic? Afterall, there is never a time when you don't wnat to meteor cancel.

 

[MLGF]

It's not a matter of difficulty so much as it's a matter of arbitration; the problem isn't that Melee is difficult, the problem is that Melee is way more difficult than it needs to be. Melee is by far the most difficult fighting game to play, but doesn't objectively beat out competitors in terms of depth. It's just hard because of unhappy accidents, and people feel PM needs to be as hard so they can continue to feel good about themselves.

Hah, what?
Melee's casual to competitive learning curve is not that hard, stop exaggerating.

 

[Bleck]

"It's not that hard, guys. Trust me, I'm great at it. Did I mention that my penis is enormous and I'm the greatest."

 

[HyperrCrow]

Hah, what?
Melee's casual to competitive learning curve is not that hard, stop exaggerating.

Stop here and save yourself from embarrassment.

 

[1MachGO]

making something more difficult to do must make the game better ipso facto blindfolds for everyone

oh **** did someone predict that falco laser because they heard the sound of it happening mute the volume add some depth in there

dang it's like too easy to push those buttons with your fingers somebody tape those controllers to the ground and everyone else get your socks off

et cetera

Wow. You have convinced me.

I agree. Lets remove L-Cancelling. And while we're at it, let's permanently slow the game down to 1/4th speed. I don't like how the normal speed makes the game more difficult and harder to comprehend just 'cuz.

Actually, **** it. Lets take the controller out of the equation entirely. It adds nothing to the game but a silly barrier for the player to pointlessly overcome so they can control their character. I'll grab a copper wire and you get a battery drill; we'll plug each other's brains in.

et cetera

Two can play at this game and honestly: its not worth playing. Proposing ridiculous hyperbole doesn't answer the question. Difficulty does add depth to the game because it can impact metagame growth and strategy. Not being able to play optimally is more interesting and having that duality of possibility and capability is one of the reasons Melee was so great. So yes, L-Cancelling, while somewhat arbitrary, is neither pointless enough nor difficult enough for it to not make a positive impact on smash's duality... and frankly, it was probably a more useful contributor than people would like to give it credit for.

 

[Bleck]

Proposing ridiculous hyperbole doesn't answer the question.

no but it does a pretty good job of implying that the question was dumb

 

[CyberZixx]

Not sure if i'd say Melee is by far the hardest to play. KOF for instance is a hard game to play.

 

[HyperrCrow]

Melee isn't the hardest to learn, but unlike a lot of other fighters then climb to the competitive level is extremely steep. There's so much freedom in the Smash Bros. series overall that you're not automatically good at the game once you learn all the tech because there are no set combos.

KOF though, that's a whole 'nother beast, game is insane.

 

[fabulouspants]

just wait for virtual gaming if u think technical barriers are dumb. you can just use your brain to play fighting games in 10-20years.

 

[Strong Badam]

Should meteor cancelling be automatic? Afterall, there is never a time when you don't wnat to meteor cancel.

you can meteor cancel at wildly different heights that all have different uses, all of which allow your opponent to interact with you. additionally, it is sometimes preferable to not meteor cancel and to ledgetech, or if you are being meteored onstage to simply tech in place and punish.

try again

 

[Y-L]

This thread is 99% bad analogies

 

[GP&B]

I swear, I'd make it an infractable offense in this thread alone if anyone else makes anymore analogies.

On the topic of L-canceling though, it's the same thing as being infracted. There's no reason to ever want to do things that get you infracted.

 

[Vashimus]

Just to address the OP before taking my leave.

Yes, P:M is easier than Melee, and that's not a bad thing. With an entire tourney-viable cast and a more varied stage list, P:M still achieves more depth than Melee could ever hope for. The reward for practicing a game should be gaining a better understanding of the mechanics, matchups and strategy behind it, not execution fetishism.

Execution reduction can be good, but only when it's done intelligently. The Street Fighter 4 series is a perfect example of how not to do it, making reversal and throw-tech windows ridiculously large while adding arbitrarily difficult motions and links everywhere else. What happened? Players mashed dragon punches/Ultras to their heart's desire, people get afraid to do blockstrings or oki of any meaningful quality for fear of dropping them and losing nearly half their health, gameplay starts favoring defense and slows to a crawl in the process.

Unintended results like that can really damage a game, and it's probably why the AT's haven't been tampered with too much by the PMBR, and they likely won't for the foreseeable future, probably for the better. L-canceling is something I'm completely open to axing however.

 

[Zone]

Should meteor cancelling be automatic? Afterall, there is never a time when you don't wnat to meteor cancel.

No because what if i rather DI the meteor at a platform or in between the openings of two platforms and tech rather than stay airborn against someone with a good upward aerial game?

Ya you might want to meteor cancel every time off stage. But because there is on-stage utility to not meteor cancel your point is invalid.

Another random example, sometimes you might want to tech wall jump punish someone for doing that as well.

 

[MLGF]

Stop here and save yourself from embarrassment.

I don't think I was clear, I apologize. What I mean is that competitive Melee does not have the highest learning floor. Games like KoF and Guilty Gear are much more demanding of the player.

 

[1MachGO]

no but it does a pretty good job of implying that the question was dumb

Clearly you only value the mental aspect of games.

 

[Nixon Corral]

It's not a matter of difficulty so much as it's a matter of arbitration; the problem isn't that Melee is difficult, the problem is that Melee is way more difficult than it needs to be. Melee is by far the most difficult fighting game to play, but doesn't objectively beat out competitors in terms of depth. It's just hard because of unhappy accidents, and people feel PM needs to be as hard so they can continue to feel good about themselves.

Most of this pretty much hits the nail on the head. People hold clear accidents like wavedashing so dear, and it seems to mostly be because it's a relatively difficult technique that makes people feel like they've accomplished something when they learn it when it's an exploit to begin with. To the extent that is possible, I prefer my metagame to evolve from intended mechanics, not engine quibbles. I mean, I love Melee, but it's definitely in spite of many things about it.

 

[The_NZA]

No because what if i rather DI the meteor at a platform or in between the openings of two platforms and tech rather than stay airborn against someone with a good upward aerial game?

Ya you might want to meteor cancel every time off stage. But because there is on-stage utility to not meteor cancel your point is invalid.

Another random example, sometimes you might want to tech wall jump punish someone for doing that as well.

Theoretically, though, you would want to meteorcancel more often than not. There ARE ways to make this mechanic more reliable and accessible for the lowest common denominator. For example, you could make it so holding X when you are knocked downward will meteor cancel it (regardless of timing), or if you automated the meteor cancel, you could make it so holding down during a meteor cancel would stop you from "auto jumping out of it" since the choice to not meteor cancel would be exercised FAR less frequently than cancelling it.

I'm not claiming meteor cancelling is completely analogous to l cancelling--I'm moreso asking us to challenge the concept that "barriers for the sake of barriers are bad and offer no strategic depth or counterplay". There might be some barriers where we don't like it getting any easier...and maybe gameplay design decisions cant be as easily philosophically boxed up and thrown in the ocean purely because they don't necessarily open up branching decisions.

 

[Zone]

Theoretically, though, you would want to meteorcancel more often than not. There ARE ways to make this mechanic more reliable and accessible for the lowest common denominator. For example, you could make it so holding X when you are knocked downward will meteor cancel it (regardless of timing), or if you automated the meteor cancel, you could make it so holding down during a meteor cancel would stop you from "auto jumping out of it" since the choice to not meteor cancel would be exercised FAR less frequently than cancelling it.

I'm not claiming meteor cancelling is completely analogous to l cancelling--I'm moreso asking us to challenge the concept that "barriers for the sake of barriers are bad and offer no strategic depth or counterplay". There might be some barriers where we don't like it getting any easier...and maybe gameplay design decisions cant be as easily philosophically boxed up and thrown in the ocean purely because they don't necessarily open up branching decisions.

Subjectively I think games should be simple. It gets more technical because a button input is required to let the game know you are selecting an option.


As strong bad said you can meteor cancel at a different height so perhaps you can grab the ledge quicker. Thus still needing a reason to time it.

I like l-canceling I think it's fun and adds hype and appreciation to a combo.

But it's not a necessity. I get more hype out of opening someone up or mix ups. Brain vs brain aspects.


Edit:

I don't think you should make a game easier just to make it easier.

Like your best combo in a macro.

It's simple. New button every time you need to let the game know to do a singular idea.

It'll automatically become technical if you program options into the game.

 

[HyperrCrow]

I don't think I was clear, I apologize. What I mean is that competitive Melee does not have the highest learning floor. Games like KoF and Guilty Gear are much more demanding of the player.

I agree with you on the KoF/Guilty Gear tidbit and the fact that Melee doesn't have the highest learning floor, it's still a very hard game to master competitively, moreso than some other fighters.

Anyways, this was probably me misinterpreting your post so I'd like to apologize as well, we've made our thoughts clear to one another

 

[Strong Badam]

the problem, NZA, is that there is no example throughout the entire game that is analogous to l-canceling, and that's why the for-l-canceling side's arguments are always weak. it's an alien mechanic that doesn't belong in smash bros.

 

[1MachGO]

the problem, NZA, is that there is no example throughout the entire game that is analogous to l-canceling, and that's why the for-l-canceling side's arguments are always weak. it's an alien mechanic that doesn't belong in smash bros.

I feel like the last couple of sentences in NZA's post addresses the exact idea you are bringing up. There isn't anything that is exactly analogous to L-cancelling but that doesn't necessarily mean it lacks value.

 

[The_NZA]

the problem, NZA, is that there is no example throughout the entire game that is analogous to l-canceling, and that's why the for-l-canceling side's arguments are always weak. it's an alien mechanic that doesn't belong in smash bros.

I'm curious why you think having to time a meteor cancel offers any more depth of strategy than having to lcancel. Afterall, the minimal amount of counterplay meteorcancelling offers in timing is analogous to shield tilting to mess up an l-cancel. Will it have an effect 90% of the time? probably not. But maybe 10%, you can mess someones game by a couple of frames and score a punish.

Regardless...i don't really have a horse in this race. I'm just not interested in fox/falco shine pressure becoming any easier than it already is.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I *seriously* freaking think that L-Cancels affecting tech windows is a great way to give them, well, depth and meaning. The risk of being combo'd if you mis-space introduces both interaction and risk to the notion of L-Cancels.

 

[Saito]

I'd probably main falco if I didn't have to L cancel.

Or lucas.

 

[Prince Longstrok]

OP thinks the game is too easy, and somehow the thread got onto the topic of auto- l canceling..

Not sure what to say :|.

Also, define "easy". As in its too easy to get into? THATS A GOOD THING. The appeal of smash has always been "easy to pickup, difficult to master".

Like someone here stated before, its okay to have the entry barrier be low if the ceiling is still high. Just imagine how many people would be turned away from smash if it didnt have that simple control setup? Smash is as technical as you want it to be- thats the beauty of it!

 

[Strong Badam]

I'm just not interested in fox/falco shine pressure becoming any easier than it already is.

If something is broken if it's easier, then it's broken now.

I *seriously* freaking think that L-Cancels affecting tech windows is a great way to give them, well, depth and meaning. The risk of being combo'd if you mis-space introduces both interaction and risk to the notion of L-Cancels.

Doesn't mess with it if you light press for l-cancel, which I do.

 

[Zone]

If you're worried about fox and falco being easier to play then your goals aren't set high enough.

That means you're relying on your opponents to make mistakes that have nothing to do with your skill to get an edge.


That's not cool

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

If something is broken if it's easier, then it's broken now.

Doesn't mess with it if you light press for l-cancel, which I do.

Right, I remember. I was saying that it probably should. But it's probably not going to change.