Is Project M too easy relatively?

[The_NZA]

If something is broken if it's easier, then it's broken now.

Doesn't mess with it if you light press for l-cancel, which I do.

You say that, but I haven't in the last 14 years seen anyone play at TAS levels. Also, what is this about light pressing l cancels to omit mistakes?

 

[9bit]

You say that, but I haven't in the last 14 years seen anyone play at TAS levels. Also, what is this about light pressing l cancels to omit mistakes?

If you light press to L cancel it doesn't affect your tech window. But if you hard press, then you can't tech for 40 frames or whatever the punishment is.

 

[Saito]

Remove L-Cancels and the skill floor will raise substantially, but I honestly believe that the skill ceiling will go even higher than it currently is.

People who lack in the tech skill department might see a sudden jump in their skill if they have a good mental aspect of the game but not the tech skill to match it.

I'd play the game regardless. I just feel that a lot of the characters with good shield pressure will start to dominate a lot of the scene.

Newer players will be greeted with insane pressure (ingame) coming from other newer players that they won't be ready for. While they themselves may be faster, their opponents will also be faster and able to lay down extremely powerful pressure game if they know the concepts alone. Pressure that a new player into the scene might not be ready for. Considering how even high level players are susceptible to this kind of pressure I do fear how new players might be turned off by this.

This would make the entry barrier seem higher and might also be seen as off putting.

 

[1MachGO]

Fox and Falco's shield pressure games would both be buffed if L-Cancelling were removed. This isn't just a result of players no longer messing up their L-cancel, it extends to the fact that they no long have to account for L-Cancelling.

Due to L-Cancelling's position in a pressure game (after an attack) and how important it is to perform (you'll get punished if you mess it up) L-Cancelling will naturally take precedence over your next action. This need to anticipate L-Cancelling forces players to sacrifice some of their reaction time in regards to new information.

This loss of reaction time is probably why flow chart Fox/Falcos are so seldom scene. In an ideal world, Fox would follow up his nair with a grab (since uthrow is where he gets most of his damage/positional advantage from in many match ups). If nair cleanly hit the opponent, he could easily follow up with a grab. However, if the nair hit a shield, Fox should then follow up with a shine grab. The need to L-Cancel probably interferes with most Fox players' abilities to recognize how the nair hit, so they take the middle road and just shine most of the time.

 

[Bleck]

nah I'm pretty sure that removing Falco's ability to destroy your shield before you can even move is probably a nerf

 

[Phaiyte]

foreal guys, if you want a super easy smash game just play Brawl.

 

[deadjames]

What do you all think about shield dropping in PM? Personally, I find it easier in Melee, but I don't really know why, maybe it has something to do with light-shielding.

 

[Phan7om]

Seriously, what is the big deal with techs being a little easier?
"Oooooooh, someone who has practiced tech skill less than me can do it just as well as I can, *sob*" stfu... like really?
From experience, tech skill doesnt make you better. Every smash game, Brawl included, involves a deep knowledge of the game, matchups, and fundamentals. Tech skill is only the first step of the process. Work on your matchup knowledge, and your fundamentals. Those things can always get better.

 

[Mr.Random]

Right now there's a discussion on Smash UK about PMs tech difficulty relative to Melee.

Some seem to think that ATs being easier is a bad thing and should need plenty of practice while some don't.

What do you think? Personally I think ATs being easier is a good thing as long as it doesn't take optil s away.

Notable examples of ATs being easier:

1 frame easier to do SWD, 1 frame more lenient for short hopping and no longer need to JC USmashes.

The more accessible it is, the better for PMBR's future. Melee's biggest weakness is that it's much harder to get into compared to PM and you need a good controller due to how overly sensitive the controls are. You don't need this in PM and having the option to customize controls and having more leniency on certain techs is honestly a good thing.

 

[Y-L]

Please don't bring this cancerous thread back to life again..

 

[Jacob29]

As long as it's actually on topic...

 

[GaretHax]

How is this thread still a thing...
^ Clever hehe, no seriously though can it be locked or something?

 

[Raijinken]

I'd say PM is a bit easier than Melee. PM makes numerous maneuvers easier to do, balances characters (which can be seen as making it easier for "weak" characters in Melee and harder for "strong" characters), and the PMBR has gone out of their way to demonstrate how some of their changes compare to Melee and/or Brawl as necessary. That helps open the playing field for less experienced players to BECOME experienced without ages of practice, while keeping the skill differences between experienced and inexperienced players visible.

This is a very good thing.

 

[Terotrous]

I feel that L Cancelling is kind of a dumb mechanic because it's always beneficial. There's no time where it's not useful to L-Cancel, unlike, say, Wavedashing, where there are plenty of bad ways to use Wavedash. It certainly doesn't increase the competitive depth of the game in any way.

That being said, it's also so absurdly easy to do that it's almost trivial. So I don't really care about it either way. If it was made so that your attacks were always L-Cancelled without you pressing anything I'd be fine with it.

I also totally agree that I think accessibility is a desirable feature and that using execution barriers as a form of game balance (this character is super OP if you can totally control them but it's hard so that's okay) is really poor design. I just don't think it's a huge issue when it comes to L-Cancel specifically.

 

[Radical Larry]

In spite of the L-Cancelling, I think it would be better if L-Cancelling were like SSB64's, where it's the exact landing frame and instant outage into shield, instead of giving an option to automatically do it.

 

[Mansta]

Oh god this thread is still going.

 

[Phan7om]

Just going to say this... im 99.9% sure the PMBR WONT make L-canceling automatic. Idc, whether you say its a useless tech barrier or not, its not getting removed.


Also, im also sorry if my comment somehow made this thread come alive again, just wanted to put in my two cents. This can be locked if you want.

 

[Phorical]

nah I'm pretty sure that removing Falco's ability to destroy your shield before you can even move is probably a nerf

Everything you've said in this thread makes you seem like an unthoughtful prick who just wants his way for whatever reason. How would adding auto-canceling remove falco's ability to destroy your shield? It's clear you barely understand the game at all. To everyone else agreeing that L-canceling is just an extra button press, guys, L-canceling is dynamic, probably one of the most dynamic things in the game. Depending on which move, and when and where you are attacking your enemy from, the timing is different. It makes you think so much more about what you're doing. The advanced movement options is what makes this game have "neutral" and other fighting games have "footsies". Having the best movement available without doing much weakens the **** out of the mindgame aspect. Go watch Isai play 64 and see how he misses his L-cancels strategically sometimes, to bait his opponent. That is what makes this game the best. If anyone disagrees, I'd love to hear what makes you think otherwise.

Edit: Changed "removing l-canceling" to "auto-canceling"

 

[Xermo]

Nice necro-bump

 

[Phorical]

Nice necro-bump

Nice giving a crap. Such trivial matters.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Everything you've said in this thread makes you seem like an unthoughtful prick who just wants his way for whatever reason. How would adding auto-canceling remove falco's ability to destroy your shield? It's clear you barely understand the game at all. To everyone else agreeing that L-canceling is just an extra button press, guys, L-canceling is dynamic, probably one of the most dynamic things in the game. Depending on which move, and when and where you are attacking your enemy from, the timing is different. It makes you think so much more about what you're doing. The advanced movement options is what makes this game have "neutral" and other fighting games have "footsies". Having the best movement available without doing much weakens the **** out of the mindgame aspect. Go watch Isai play 64 and see how he misses his L-cancels strategically sometimes, to bait his opponent. That is what makes this game the best. If anyone disagrees, I'd love to hear what makes you think otherwise.

Edit: Changed "removing l-canceling" to "auto-canceling"

a lot of people disagree.

read this: http://smashboards.com/threads/automatic-l-cancelling-discussion.407553/

and I mean ALL of it.
Don't just skim over the bits that are opposing your view. Read them and understand them.

 

[Bleck]

people quoting me in month old threads and I'm over here like damn son what year is it

 

[Kurri ★]

Everything you've said in this thread makes you seem like an unthoughtful prick who just wants his way for whatever reason. How would adding auto-canceling remove falco's ability to destroy your shield? It's clear you barely understand the game at all. To everyone else agreeing that L-canceling is just an extra button press, guys, L-canceling is dynamic, probably one of the most dynamic things in the game. Depending on which move, and when and where you are attacking your enemy from, the timing is different. It makes you think so much more about what you're doing. The advanced movement options is what makes this game have "neutral" and other fighting games have "footsies". Having the best movement available without doing much weakens the **** out of the mindgame aspect. Go watch Isai play 64 and see how he misses his L-cancels strategically sometimes, to bait his opponent. That is what makes this game the best. If anyone disagrees, I'd love to hear what makes you think otherwise.

Edit: Changed "removing l-canceling" to "auto-canceling"

That line, bolded. The whole post is bad, but geez, I am laughing hysterically right now. You understand footsies is part of the neutral game, right?

 

[OSCA MIKE]

Everything you've said in this thread makes you seem like an unthoughtful prick who just wants his way for whatever reason. How would adding auto-canceling remove falco's ability to destroy your shield? It's clear you barely understand the game at all. To everyone else agreeing that L-canceling is just an extra button press, guys, L-canceling is dynamic, probably one of the most dynamic things in the game. Depending on which move, and when and where you are attacking your enemy from, the timing is different. It makes you think so much more about what you're doing. The advanced movement options is what makes this game have "neutral" and other fighting games have "footsies". Having the best movement available without doing much weakens the **** out of the mindgame aspect. Go watch Isai play 64 and see how he misses his L-cancels strategically sometimes, to bait his opponent. That is what makes this game the best. If anyone disagrees, I'd love to hear what makes you think otherwise.

Edit: Changed "removing l-canceling" to "auto-canceling"

definitely trolling

 

[Ningildo]

Everything you've said in this thread makes you seem like an unthoughtful prick who just wants his way for whatever reason. How would adding auto-canceling remove falco's ability to destroy your shield? It's clear you barely understand the game at all. To everyone else agreeing that L-canceling is just an extra button press, guys, L-canceling is dynamic, probably one of the most dynamic things in the game. Depending on which move, and when and where you are attacking your enemy from, the timing is different. It makes you think so much more about what you're doing. The advanced movement options is what makes this game have "neutral" and other fighting games have "footsies". Having the best movement available without doing much weakens the **** out of the mindgame aspect. Go watch Isai play 64 and see how he misses his L-cancels strategically sometimes, to bait his opponent. That is what makes this game the best. If anyone disagrees, I'd love to hear what makes you think otherwise.

Edit: Changed "removing l-canceling" to "auto-canceling"

So, depending on the situation, you have to l-cancel on different timings. And this adds depth.

Pressing a button on different intervals apparently makes it complex and meaningful and the reason behind the fluid movement options in PM/Melee.

Please be joking, this is possibly worse then appeal to tradition as an argument and the worst way to necro bump a thread.

 

[Zone]

Only time I believe L-cancel is needed as a execution barrier, is if not l-cancelling yields some form of positive outcomes. Like if not l-cancelling a move made you bring up shield faster, but to get a move out faster after landing, you must l-cancel. Then you'd have utility to choose one over the other.

Which I believe is ACTUALLY adding depth.

Technical barrier for the heck of it isn't a positive thing. The reason people get confused on why L-cancel is a positive. Is because they assume w/o it, the game must be slow. Why can't the game just be default melee recovery speed. ect ect.

 

[SuruStorm]

I feel like a good solution could be to just force a **** ton of people (or a medium-large scale tournament) to play with auto-cancelling enabled. That way we could actually see if there are negative effects, which I doubt there are. The only real downside I see to l-cancelling is that it would likely deteriorate melee mechanics for a bunch of people.

 

[Shellfire]

Coming from someone who's a total noob at this game: L-cancelling is brainlessly easy. Tekken has jab strings with stricter timing windows than 7 frames, and my little sister can pull those off. you can master L-cancelling with mere minutes of dedicated practice. The hardest thing about L-cancelling is remembering to actually do it. I miss most of my L-cancels because I'm to focused on other things and don't think "I should L-cancel" until the exact moment it's too late.

Regardless, if you're at the level of play where you can't L-cancel, anyone else near your level probably isn't good enough to punish you for not doing it.

 

[Kurri ★]

Coming from someone who's a total noob at this game: L-cancelling is brainlessly easy. Tekken has jab strings with stricter timing windows than 7 frames, and my little sister can pull those off. you can master L-cancelling with mere minutes of dedicated practice. The hardest thing about L-cancelling is remembering to actually do it. I miss most of my L-cancels because I'm to focused on other things and don't think "I should L-cancel" until the exact moment it's too late.

Regardless, if you're at the level of play where you can't L-cancel, anyone else near your level probably isn't good enough to punish you for not doing it.

Brainlessly easy is not the reason why people are against it...

 

[Shellfire]

Brainlessly easy is not the reason why people are against it...

Yeah, but the reasons people are stating here are akin to saying that Skyrim should pop potions for you when your health gets low or (and here comes another Tekken comparison) throw break windows should be really huge. Besides, with the added flash on successful L-cancel, it's become far easier to recognize a botched one and punish a lot of them, so there is some gameplay impact.

 

[Kurri ★]

Yeah, but the reasons people are stating here are akin to saying that Skyrim should pop potions for you when your health gets low or (and here comes another Tekken comparison) throw break windows should be really huge. Besides, with the added flash on successful L-cancel, it's become far easier to recognize a botched one and punish a lot of them, so there is some gameplay impact.

You see this link? http://smashboards.com/threads/automatic-l-cancelling-discussion.407553/
Read it, every last page. if you have something to say about L-Cancel, put it there. Also, your Skyrim comparison is flawed...

 

[Phorical]

So, depending on the situation, you have to l-cancel on different timings. And this adds depth.

Pressing a button on different intervals apparently makes it complex and meaningful and the reason behind the fluid movement options in PM/Melee.

Please be joking, this is possibly worse then appeal to tradition as an argument and the worst way to necro bump a thread.

You've done nothing to discredit what I've said, merely simplified an amazing game, and stated that you -think- my reasons make no sense. How do my points come anywhere close to an appeal to tradition or authority fallacy? Good job.

That line, bolded. The whole post is bad, but geez, I am laughing hysterically right now. You understand footsies is part of the neutral game, right?

People like you who try so hard to find problems with sound reasoning to be able to act like they know what they're talking about... sheesh. That whole sentence was just a distinction between the level of complexity in other fighting games compared to smash. Neutral and footsies are the same freaking thing. Once again, no actual rebuttal, just ******** opinions. What exactly are you laughing so hysterically for? Your own idiocy?

a lot of people disagree.

read this: http://smashboards.com/threads/automatic-l-cancelling-discussion.407553/

and I mean ALL of it.
Don't just skim over the bits that are opposing your view. Read them and understand them.

Why are you acting as though I don't understand the opposition? I don't know if you're just getting numbers from smash boards or what have you, but I'm pretty sure the majority of actual melee players do not wish for auto l-canceling. Even if they did, why would that affect my position? Until someone destroys every single shred of text I put into that first post I probably won't be satisfied with any of your answers. The general consensus of this thread you've linked is just "l-canceling is tedious, make **** easier" and I just can't take people who don't think seriously about these things seriously at all. I feel as though most people are just saying it to say something. So laugh, it's okay, get your mental grievances out of the courtroom and feel free to post actual discussion anytime soon. I'd love to be fundamentally proven wrong, but I'm pretty convinced of my reasons.

definitely trolling

Yeah dude, totally.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Until someone destroys every single shred of text I put into that first post I probably won't be satisfied with any of your answers. .

Which is why I said to read the other thread.
Where all your points have been addressed.

The general consensus of this thread you've linked is just "l-canceling is tedious, make **** easier".

Annd this is why i said read it carefully. because you've already come to the wrong conclusion.

 

[Kurri ★]

You've done nothing to discredit what I've said, merely simplified an amazing game, and stated that you -think- my reasons make no sense. How do my points come anywhere close to an appeal to tradition or authority fallacy? Good job.


People like you who try so hard to find problems with sound reasoning to be able to act like they know what they're talking about... sheesh. That whole sentence was just a distinction between the level of complexity in other fighting games compared to smash. Neutral and footsies are the same freaking thing. Once again, no actual rebuttal, just ******** opinions. What exactly are you laughing so hysterically for? Your own idiocy?


Why are you acting as though I don't understand the opposition? I don't know if you're just getting numbers from smash boards or what have you, but I'm pretty sure the majority of actual melee players do not wish for auto l-canceling. Even if they did, why would that affect my position? Until someone destroys every single shred of text I put into that first post I probably won't be satisfied with any of your answers. The general consensus of this thread you've linked is just "l-canceling is tedious, make **** easier" and I just can't take people who don't think seriously about these things seriously at all. I feel as though most people are just saying it to say something. So laugh, it's okay, get your mental grievances out of the courtroom and feel free to post actual discussion anytime soon. I'd love to be fundamentally proven wrong, but I'm pretty convinced of my reasons.


Yeah dude, totally.

Hey dude? Your jimmies okay? They seem sorta rustled.

Besides I didn't even try hard to poke a hole through your logic. You said:

The advanced movement options is what makes this game have "neutral" and other fighting games have "footsies".

This is flawed because footsies is part of neutral, and all fighting games, traditional and otherwise have a neutral; Smash isn't special. As for the rest of your post, just read the other thread, carefully. Every one of your post has been discussed many times over, you've said nothing new.

 

[Phorical]

Hey dude? Your jimmies okay? They seem sorta rustled.

Besides I didn't even try hard to poke a hole through your logic. You said:

This is flawed because footsies is part of neutral, and all fighting games, traditional and otherwise have a neutral; Smash isn't special. As for the rest of your post, just read the other thread, carefully. Every one of your post has been discussed many times over, you've said nothing new.

Bro? Hey, bro. Your brain functioning properly? Circumstances indicate otherwise. Footsies is not *APART OF* neutral, they're different names for the same thing, I'll pay you a million dollars to somehow prove they are not. If my jimmies are rustled for making a response, then congratulations on getting your own jimmies rustled. Thanks for the one-two punch of jimmies rustled, me and you, pal.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Footsies is not *APART OF* neutral,.

This is 100% correct.
They are, in fact, a part of neutral.

You're mixing up 'apart' and 'a part'.

 

[Phorical]

Which is why I said to read the other thread.
Where all your points have been addressed.



Annd this is why i said read it carefully. because you've already come to the wrong conclusion.

I'm pretty sure I said that, "the consensus", not every single point made in that entire thread. When someone explains how it's not just an arbitrary mechanic, which every single video game mechanic ever technically is, it's replied with "think harder", specifically by you, as though it's an actual argument. As though there's some kind of conspiracy to hide the amazing truth of no l-canceling until you discover for yourself. I don't want to read an entire thread twice just because none of you can make a coherent argument for your unnecessary adjustment to an established rule set.

Fine, the most compelling argument I heard was that l-canceling goes against traditional fighting game mechanics by limiting your choices. Not only is this an appeal to tradition fallacy, which someone tried to pin against me earlier, but it's flat-out ignorant and completely wrong. If you read the last few sentences of my first post, you can easily see why.

Having the best movement available without doing much weakens the f*** out of the mindgame aspect. Go watch Isai play 64 and see how he misses his L-cancels strategically sometimes, to bait his opponent. That is what makes this game the best. If anyone disagrees, I'd love to hear what makes you think otherwise.

If I didn't make it clear enough, making l-canceling a choice, is exactly that, giving you more options as a player.

If you want to go ahead and actually make a real *not* spread-through-out-an-entire-thread response, please do so. And stop being so smug without a shred of evidence for your case, not even logical or physically.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Honestly, we're all tired of reading posts by people like you coming in thinking your arguments are fresh and new.
They're not.

noone is going to bother reposting their arguments here. the other thread has everything already.

 

[Phorical]

This is 100% correct.
They are, in fact, a part of neutral.

You're mixing up 'apart' and 'a part'.

Good job going to semantics. While I do care about coherency, I do not care for the egotistical bumps you deem necessary to achieve by pointing out otherwise easily missed typos. You've once again utterly failed to stand against legitimate scrutiny. I'm extremely tempted to not respond again. I've stated that I'm capable of having my mind changed, but it seems you lot -ARE- not. *yay ryhmes*

-Minor grammatical edit to ensure no more nonsensical replies.-

 

[Phorical]

Whoops, disregard this post. I can't find a delete option. As in this post in this box, not the ones above it.