Is Project M too easy relatively?

[Narpas_sword]

I've had my mind changed.

I used to think L-canceling was a good deep mechanic.

 

[Phorical]

I've had my mind changed.

I used to think L-canceling was a good deep mechanic.

That's wonderful, and yet there are still born-again Christians completely convinced of the truth of the bible when they were previously, at least of their word, atheists. I'm not sure of your disposition, but to any logically minded person the bible itself is almost completely wrong in every statement it makes regarding the nature of reality. Just because you've changed your mind before doesn't mean you're willing this time. I can tell you didn't even finish reading most of my posts. Have whatever you consider a good day.

 

[GP&B]

Good grief, look at the ego on this guy. Came in swinging with no intention of actually reading over past discussion and then decides that our lack of response is due to inflexibility and not the extreme tedium in constantly deconstructing the same points fifty times over.

Ditch the 8-inch thick layer of pretentiousness and maybe someone will bother giving you a thought out response. Otherwise forget it, this isn't worth the time.

Edit: Oh he's 15. Hey man, don't let high school debate club overinflate that precious ego of yours. It's not something that will serve you well in the future.

 

[Kurri ★]

That's wonderful, and yet there are still born-again Christians completely convinced of the truth of the bible when they were previously, at least of their word, atheists. I'm not sure of your disposition, but to any logically minded person the bible itself is almost completely wrong in every statement it makes regarding the nature of reality. Just because you've changed your mind before doesn't mean you're willing this time. I can tell you didn't even finish reading most of my posts. Have whatever you consider a good day.

*Checks profile*
Male, 15

Okay, I get it, you're trying to fit in by being edgy... (don't worry, I was like that too)

Stop, it makes it harder to take you seriously.

 

[Rawkobo]

That's wonderful, and yet there are still born-again Christians completely convinced of the truth of the bible when they were previously, at least of their word, atheists. I'm not sure of your disposition, but to any logically minded person the bible itself is almost completely wrong in every statement it makes regarding the nature of reality. Just because you've changed your mind before doesn't mean you're willing this time. I can tell you didn't even finish reading most of my posts. Have whatever you consider a good day.

Likewise, we can tell you never read the thread, like we requested, mainly because this exact discussion was in that thread, and if you wanted to talk about it and hear us say essentially the same things over again, that would've been the place to do it. Discussing L-cancelling in this thread is a pointless necrobump from just about anyone.

 

[Phorical]

Honestly, we're all tired of reading posts by people like you coming in thinking your arguments are fresh and new.
They're not.

noone is going to bother reposting their arguments here. the other thread has everything already.

I wasn't going to say anything else, but oh no, I had to miss that

Good grief, look at the ego on this guy. Came in swinging with no intention of actually reading over past discussion and then decides that our lack of response is due to inflexibility and not the extreme tedium in constantly deconstructing the same points fifty times over.

Ditch the 8-inch thick layer of pretentiousness and maybe someone will bother giving you a thought out response. Otherwise forget it, this isn't worth the time.

Edit: Oh he's 15. Hey man, don't let high school debate club overinflate that precious ego of yours. It's not something that will serve you well in the future.

You people are a waste of my time. Bringing in age, and ridiculing, just everything that goes with -actual- pretentiousness, yet -I'M- the one who's pretentious. I've read both of these threads entirely. Your points make 0 sense. None of you have actually tackled the specific points I've made. You just want to secure your e-peens with the fact that you all "debunked," if you can even call it that, the people posting here's argument which may or may not be kind of similar to mine.

Oh, and I have no interest in debate club, bud. I'm actually one of the most underperforming students in my school because of major depressive states, and am finally gaining personal motivation in life due to the inspiration smash, particularly 64 and Melee, gives me. With everything I've said, I just find it hilarious that all you get out of it is a self-perceived ego-push. It's pretty sad how easily some people can rationalize things.

 

[Narpas_sword]

FFS do we HAVE to do this again?

L-canceling is dynamic, probably one of the most dynamic things in the game. Depending on which move, and when and where you are attacking your enemy from, the timing is different. It makes you think so much more about what you're doing.

No.
No it's not.
It is possibly the LEAST dynamic thing in the game.
You press L before you touch the ground.
You can mash L before you hit the ground. There is no fail window.
There are no options involved. Here is the flow chart: Is the move I'm using L-cancel-able when I land-> Yes -> Do I want to L cancel -> Yes
It's not an advanced movement. It is lag reduction with a simple button press.
Wavedashing is an advanced movement, with options and reasons for and against using it in a situation.
This was ALL addressed in the other thread.

 

[Phorical]

FFS do we HAVE to do this again?



No.
No it's not.
It is possibly the LEAST dynamic thing in the game.
You press L before you touch the ground.
You can mash L before you hit the ground. There is no fail window.
There are no options involved. Here is the flow chart: Is the move I'm using L-cancel-able when I land-> Yes -> Do I want to L cancel -> Yes
It's not an advanced movement. It is lag reduction with a simple button press.
Wavedashing is an advanced movement, with options and reasons for and against using it in a situation.
This was ALL addressed in the other thread.

Did I not literally describe what you've just done before? "No. No it's not." Uh, yes, there is a different timing for when you're going to land depending on which character, move, and the timing of what you're doing because of the freeze frames and what not, therefore there's a different timing for when you're going to l-cancel. And I even gave an example of the use of not l-canceling in-game. In my first freaking post. The first one. You can actually miss an l-cancel to bait your opponent, just as you can bait your opponent by moving towards your opponent with wavedashing. It's extremely arguable that auto-canceling actually REMOVES some of your freedom as a player. Your arguments suck, plain and simple. This is for real probably my last post in this thread unless someone has something super intriguing to say.

Edit: Another point that I've heard shut down on these threads for no good reason is that l-canceling is 100% tied to your movement, it affects when you can move again, and therefore, YOUR MOVEMENT.

 

[Rawkobo]

Did I not literally describe what you've just done before? "No. No it's not." Uh, yes, there is a different timing for when you're going to land depending on which character, move, and the timing of what you're doing because of the freeze frames and what not, therefore there's a different timing for when you're going to l-cancel. And I even gave an example of the use of not l-canceling in-game. In my first freaking post. The first one. You can actually miss an l-cancel to bait your opponent, just as you can bait your opponent by moving towards your opponent with wavedashing. It's extremely arguable that auto-canceling actually REMOVES some of your freedom as a player. Your arguments suck, plain and simple. This is for real probably my last post in this thread unless someone has something super intriguing to say.

In what situation? I see no such example.

 

[GP&B]

You people are a waste of my time.

Then go do something else. Claim all you want that it's not ego-push but your posts are dripping with aggression and pretentiousness. Plenty has been said on this subject and it's not up to us to once again reiterate everything to another tired and similar set of points. It's not a point of it all being debunked but more so that you bring absolutely nothing new to the table. Read it over and then decide if there's something to add.

 

[Kurri ★]

Did I not literally describe what you've just done before? "No. No it's not." Uh, yes, there is a different timing for when you're going to land depending on which character, move, and the timing of what you're doing because of the freeze frames and what not, therefore there's a different timing for when you're going to l-cancel. And I even gave an example of the use of not l-canceling in-game. In my first freaking post. The first one. You can actually miss an l-cancel to bait your opponent, just as you can bait your opponent by moving towards your opponent with wavedashing. It's extremely arguable that auto-canceling actually REMOVES some of your freedom as a player. Your arguments suck, plain and simple. This is for real probably my last post in this thread unless someone has something super intriguing to say.

Edit: Another point that I've heard shut down on these threads for no good reason is that l-canceling is 100% tied to your movement, it affects when you can move again, and therefore, YOUR MOVEMENT.

Either calm down, or go. With this attitude, no one wants to explain anything to you.

 

[Phorical]

RIP rationality. Once again I just have an ego and now an attitude to boot, you guys don't even try.

In what situation? I see no such example.

Edit: I'm assuming you're talking about what I'm talking about in this response below. You quoted the whole post so I'm not sure which point in particular you're asking an example for.
"And do I really need to dig through countless hours of smash footage just to prove that someone used a tactic? It's not even remotely complicated dude. I said, go watch through isai's gameplay videos and you'll see him miss l-cancels to bait his opponents, where the timing is just enough to fool his opponent into thinking they have an opening but isai can punish it. Just the fact that the possibility exists is evidence enough of how removing the need to l-cancel can hurt the metagame. It's insane."

 

[Kurri ★]

We did, but it's difficult to have a discussion when someone is being dense.

Anyways, I don't know much about the 64 meta, but I'll just say this, it's a different game. There's no point where you don't want to L-Cancel in Melee, but perhaps you would want to miss a Z-Cancel in 64.

 

[GP&B]

Once again I just have an ego and now an attitude to boot, you guys don't even try.

I saw nothing close to an attempt to being humble on the first post you made let alone everything else you've said in this thread since. Without any form of awareness or acknowledgement of problematic behavior on your end, nobody is going to want to touch the content of your posts. Please believe me when I'm saying that your attitude is a serious barrier in encouraging other posters to engage and discuss the topic at hand. If you're going to carry on like this, you're better off not posting in forums in general.

 

[Phorical]

We did, but it's difficult to have a discussion when someone is being dense.

Anyways, I don't know much about the 64 meta, but I'll just say this, it's a different game. There's no point where you don't want to L-Cancel in Melee, but perhaps you would want to miss a Z-Cancel in 64.

How am I being dense? I'm not specifically talking about 64, dude. All I said was go watch isai's 64 gameplay, because I've witnessed him do it on occasion against talented players.

 

[Kurri ★]

How am I being dense? I'm not specifically talking about 64, dude. All I said was go watch isai's 64 gameplay, because I've witnessed him do it on occasion against talented players.

What I bolded. You can't just say, look at 64 gameplay it's totally works in Melee. Again, maybe dropping a Z-Cancel is okay in 64, but that's not the case in Melee.

 

[Phorical]

I saw nothing close to an attempt to being humble on the first post you made let alone everything else you've said in this thread since. Without any form of awareness or acknowledgement of problematic behavior on your end, nobody is going to want to touch the content of your posts. Please believe me when I'm saying that your attitude is a serious barrier in encouraging other posters to engage and discuss the topic at hand. If you're going to carry on like this, you're better off not posting in forums in general.

When did I say I was trying to be humble? The original post I made was only truly meant to address Bleck, who I saw initially being pretentious towards sound arguments with a complete lack of understanding towards the game. It's been almost a week since I last checked the boards, and I had nearly forgotten about this discussion, but I came back because I was being laughed at apparently for having an actual fact-based opinion on a specific mechanic in a specific video game. How is my behavior, taking part in a discussion, however dead you all perceive it to be, problematic? I feel like you're just trying to justify your initial accusations of me being some profound egotist. I didn't even have a single post on this website up until approximately 7 days ago, and here you are trying to judge my entire life.

 

[Phorical]

What I bolded. You can't just say, look at 64 gameplay it's totally works in Melee. Again, maybe dropping a Z-Cancel is okay in 64, but that's not the case in Melee.

Dude, my argument wasn't, "look he does it in 64 therefore you can do it in melee." Now I'm the one having to restate things I said in the same page.

 

[Kurri ★]

fact-based opinion

Problem is, your opinion isn't based on facts. L-Cancel really is an arbitrary button with no choice or depth (you're never NOT going to L-Cancel).

When did I say I was trying to be humble? The original post I made was only truly meant to address Bleck, who I saw initially being pretentious towards sound arguments with a complete lack of understanding towards the game. It's been almost a week since I last checked the boards, and I had nearly forgotten about this discussion, but I came back because I was being laughed at apparently for having an actual fact-based opinion on a specific mechanic in a specific video game. How is my behavior, taking part in a discussion, however dead you all perceive it to be, problematic? I feel like you're just trying to justify your initial accusations of me being some profound egotist. I didn't even have a single post on this website up until approximately 7 days ago, and here you are trying to judge my entire life.

Anyways. It's not that you never said you were going to be humble but that you came into this thread, a thread that hasn't been discussed for months now, with aggression and arrogance, leaving a post that many see as flawed and incorrect. Every post since then was just drooling with pretentiousness. It doesn't help that even when we did try, you were only becoming more aggravating.

 

[Phorical]

Problem is, your opinion isn't based on facts. L-Cancel really is an arbitrary button with no choice or depth (you're never NOT going to L-Cancel).

Dude, have you been paying attention to the other posts I've made not specifically directed towards you? Like, dude.
Edit: I feel like I should elaborate here. Because of my previous post, I established that I believe that l-canceling is not something that should be bypassed because of an actual situation that can happen in the game. That's why my opinion is based on a fact, the fact that it is possible to use your choice of not l-canceling to benefit your situation. That is why my opinion is that the removal of l-canceling hurts the metagame.

Anyways. It's not that you never said you were going to be humble but that you came into this thread, a thread that hasn't been discussed for months now, with aggression and arrogance, leaving a post that many see as flawed and incorrect. Every post since then was just drooling with pretentiousness. It doesn't help that even when we did try, you were only becoming more aggravating.

DUDE. Seriously, I just said I came into this thread to tell off that Bleck guy because he was unfoundedly being a smug prick towards some guy making a good freaking point. YOU came in with, "I'm laughing hysterically hahahahaha" Was I supposed to not respond? If you're going to go in that direction, then YOU guys are the negative influences, not me. I'm not overly convinced that you guys are a**holes or anything, and sincerely apologize for saying you guys are a waste of my time, I only added that after I was finished typing because I got unnecessarily upset at you guys for bringing in irrelevant information during this discussion, but are you sure I'm the one being aggro here?

 

[Kurri ★]

I came into this thread to tell off that Bleck

So you admit you came into this thread with vitriol? If so, that's part of the problem, had it been more respectful, we wouldn't be so against you.

 

[Phorical]

So you admit you came into this thread with vitriol? If so, that's part of the problem, had it been more respectful, we wouldn't be so against you.

Yeah, okay dude. Just keep trying to take the moral ground when you've been demonstrably wrong, instead of just admitting it, flip flop the the topic into something else. Everyone else has been decently reasonable, but almost everything you've said so far is just nonsense. My so-called attitude, no matter how aggressive it appears to be, has no affect on the weight of what I'm saying, and it's shameful for you to try and hide behind your "pack" by saying "we". Do you really think you speak for everyone else that's replying?

 

[GP&B]

EDIT: **** it. I was genuinely interested in providing some feedback but you're so unbelievably full of yourself. Claiming your attitude has no effect on your argument is partly true but it certainly impedes your ability to interact with people. The results are apparent just from how derailed the thread is. No one has bothered to fully engage you because ultimately it's going to be a waste of time. "Profound egotist" precisely describes you because you have an overtly noticeable interest in winning instead of having an actual discussion. The language you use consistently supports this.

It may not mean much to you, but I had a friend that had grown into a similar attitude. It came from his dad emotionally beating him down. In response, my friend felt he needed to win or control every argument or debate in order to validate himself. He destroyed a 12 year friendship we had over the course of 2 years due to his abusive nature. I don't know your life situation beyond the depression, but I can't help but feel you're an unfortunate victim not unlike my old friend. Maybe I assume wrong but a lot of our breakout behaviors tend to come from our upbringing. It's either that or just the sense of ego that comes with going into high school (I know I had that; used to get fired up in so many arguments on gameFAQs back in the days). An odd sideroad to this thread, but I figured a little perspective wouldn't hurt. If not, then **** it now you know a touch more about me.

 

[Phorical]

EDIT: **** it. I was genuinely interested in providing some feedback but you're so unbelievably full of yourself. Claiming your attitude has no effect on your argument is partly true but it certainly impedes your ability to interact with people. The results are apparent just from how derailed the thread is. No one has bothered to fully engage you because ultimately it's going to be a waste of time. "Profound egotist" precisely describes you because you have an overtly noticeable interest in winning instead of having an actual discussion. The language you use consistently supports this.

Dude, do you know how I know that you're completely wrong? This very attempt to end the discussion is exactly the behavior you're trying to describe right now, trying to get a last word in and BOOM, the final blow to me in your eyes, or something. I've presented pretty reasonable points towards the discussion of l-canceling. What I find interesting to note is that you guys are the ones so intent on ending discussion, not me, I'm just responding. You guys are the ones who brought up attitudes and whatever instead of discussing what really mattered. The formula of this discussion has basically been, *"You guys are wrong, because x." "No we already debunked x to our knowledge so we won't continue this discussion, go read y." "But I've already read y and it does not convince me, I would like elaboration." "No ur stupid." "Please elaborate." "No." "Please elaborate." Funnily enough, I'm probably one of the only ones in here actually willing to have an actual discussion. Do you forget that I've still managed to soundly hold my position with no rebuttals worthy of consideration? That's not my fault, dude, it's yours. I don't have the sh*tty attitude, you do. Edit: My language "consistently" shows that I'm pretentious and full of myself and I just want to win? That's not an argument dude. YOU are the one looking at this so primitively, I'm merely engaging in discussion, you are the one bringing ridiculous amounts of sincerity to the table. I appreciate that you believe you're leading me in the right direction, but you're on the wrong track in terms of this particular idea imo.

Edit 2: Something else to note, to other people who aren't as chillaxed as me, it'd probably be pretty offensive to them if you tried to patronize them by saying the only reason they believe what they believe is because of some complex. I'm not offended, because I know you're just trying to rationalize my behavior, but you did so very poorly.

 

[GP&B]

I goofed up, it's definitely narcissism. Look how incredibly defensive you're behaving in addition to the deflection:
"Look how wrong you are, I'm the one that's right"
"You guys are the ones derailing, not me."
"I'm probably one of the only ones willing to have an actual discussion."
"Did you forget that I'm right?"
"Not my fault, it's yours."
"I don't have the ****ty attitude, you do."

Absolutely amazing. Literally every sentence has some form of deflection denying any wrong you have. Do you not see how destructive that is? It's point for point NPD.

You can slam me for somehow keeping this off-topic as much as you like, but I'm not even remotely interested in the original subject at this point. Not when it's impossible to do so with this kind of behavior.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I'm probably one of the only ones in here actually willing to have an actual discussion..

This is correct. you are.
Because we've all had this discussion before, for 13 pages or more.

You bumped a dead topic and added nothing useful. this should be locked tbh.

 

[Phorical]

I goofed up, it's definitely narcissism. Look how incredibly defensive you're behaving in addition to the deflection:
"Look how wrong you are, I'm the one that's right"
"You guys are the ones derailing, not me."
"I'm probably one of the only ones willing to have an actual discussion."
"Did you forget that I'm right?"
"Not my fault, it's yours."
"I don't have the ****ty attitude, you do."

Absolutely amazing. Literally every sentence has some form of deflection denying any wrong you have. Do you not see how destructive that is? It's point for point NPD.

You can slam me for somehow keeping this off-topic as much as you like, but I'm not even remotely interested in the original subject at this point. Not when it's impossible to do so with this kind of behavior.

What is wrong with you people? I think that I'm right, not because I have a massive ego, but because with my own reasoning I've managed to come to a conclusion, however flawed it may be. But you know what? You haven't demonstrated anywhere close to the point considered reasonable that I am wrong, merely asserted that you are right. You make one little observation about how I speak or some minor crap like that, and somehow come to the conclusion that I'm a humongous piece of human sh*t. Look at yourself dude, I'm not digging your hole, your behavior is. My behavior isn't destructive to rational discussion dude, I've made it too clear that you're to blame. Am I not taking part in serious discussion? You're the one who consistently keeps this going, instead of admitting you're wrong, you too just bring up something else to textually throw at me. You're so deluded, dude.

 

[Phorical]

This is correct. you are.
Because we've all had this discussion before, for 13 pages or more.

You bumped a dead topic and added nothing useful. this should be locked tbh.

How come you didn't respond to the points I made after you made an argument? I'm sorry if saying your argument sucked after you built it up so much made you upset with me to the point you didn't want to talk anymore. I can't really keep myself from being sly anymore after the constant barrage of personal attacks. Yet I'm the one who's toxic and destructive. You guys are funny.

 

[GP&B]

I don't think you're a humongous piece of human ****. I believe you are overwhelmingly demonstrating symptoms of narcissism which is causing you to act out this way-and incidentally can make you look like a piece of human ****. But I don't think you are one.

But I mean, just look at your own responses. The amount of projecting is telling.

 

[Phorical]

I don't think you're a humongous piece of human ****. I believe you are overwhelmingly demonstrating symptoms of narcissism which is causing you to act out this way-and incidentally can make you look like a piece of human ****. But I don't think you are one.

But I mean, just look at your own responses. The amount of projecting is telling.

Thanks for proving my point. Egotism worthy of sociopathy, narcissism, all manner of other insults, projection now? How many trump cards do you have in that pocket? You're so intent on proving that you're right, you're willing to falsely accuse me of severe mental disorders, personal attacks, patronize me, and then convince yourself and others that you're acting in good faith. All this from a discussion on l-canceling. And -I'M- the one with something to prove? I'm not as willing to flat out dismiss you as a narcissist, but you're actually the one who's displaying characteristics similar to one who actually has such a disorder. You should stop being a d*ck.