Is chain grabbing cheap?

[SuSa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23UyrHXK36A& (7:20)

ive also been a victim of this first hand. unless theres some secret button mash pattern i just can't escape from it

then you faced a good D3. I've done that to a Mario for like 5-6 throws? It is seriously hard to do....

Don't get grabbed - Or counterpick

 

[chic]

then you faced a good D3. I've done that to a Mario for like 5-6 throws? It is seriously hard to do....

Don't get grabbed - Or counterpick

its impossible to not be grabbed especially against good ddds. counter pick?!?! the idea of having to change my fav char since 64 just to beat 1 char is so wrong

 

[HeroMystic]

As atrocious as it sounds, the only tactic you have is to not get grabbed. I have to deal with it as a Mario main and I'm currently studying how to defeat DDD in the best way possible. I'll be testing it at a tournament on sunday.

It's sad, but Brawl is too shallow to have something done about it.

Like what Havokk said, don't get grabbed or counterpick.

 

[SuSa]

its impossible to not be grabbed especially against good ddds. counter pick?!?! the idea of having to change my fav char since 64 just to beat 1 char is so wrong

Counterpick stages then? Find stages with slopes might screw them up a bit.

Just be glad your not facing a good IC, lot easier then the d3 infinite + it can kill unlike the d3 infinite

 

[chic]

sigh, i guess you're right about the not getting grabbed thing, hero. btw, have you tried fast fall buffering? i just started learning that and it makes getting grabbed by ddd much harder for him. u might wanna look into that


edit. yea the ic cg is SCARY lol

 

[PKNintendo]

If it was cheap than the Ice Climbers would have been banned as soon as people saw they could still CG. Seriously, I think a proper tier list is Ice Climbers who have mastered CGs, MK, whatever other characters you so choose. They have one of the best if not the best grab games in Brawl but we do not call them cheap even if one grab can spell death.

And only one of their CG grabs is easy to pull off, D-throw to Fair only takes a few seconds to learn but only works up to about 30% or so until the opponent lands lying on the ground rather standing up. F-throw can be pulled off with decent practice but getting it to a level where it will actually help you win takes so much practice and skill. Every character in the game requires different timing and spacing for the regrab and it gets harder and harder with higher %'s. B-throw is even harder than that. I have been practicing their throws for weeks now I'm still only guaranteed the early D-throw to Fair in matches.

Most other CGs do require some degree of skill, you don't see every player in the world using them.
You could call grab release CGs cheap like against Ness, Lucas and Wario or if using Bowser and Yoshi but that is the risk of playing any character in the game.

Ness/Lucas can escape Marth's CG.

 

[HeroMystic]

btw, have you tried fast fall buffering? i just started learning that and it makes getting grabbed by ddd much harder for him. u might wanna look into thatl

I probably been doing it the entire time since I mash down on the control stick so I can attempt a spot dodge, but I'll look into it.

 

[Denzi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23UyrHXK36A& (7:25) the guy attemping it really sucks there btw.

ive also been a victim of this first hand. unless theres some secret button mash pattern i just can't escape from it

While this may seem cheap to you, it only works on 5 characters and, as stated, isn't exactly easy.

 

[Barge]

Infinites are banned in tourneys amirite?

 

[bobson]

then you faced a good D3. I've done that to a Mario for like 5-6 throws? It is seriously hard to do....

It took me all of ten minutes in training mode to perfect the timing of the infinite, and I am by no means a technical player. It's only hard to do if you've never done it before; once you get it down, it's a cinch.

 

[HeroMystic]

The Infinite is seriously not hard to do at all. I even did it in a match once because my friend wanted to see it, and it was my first time doing it after watching a video.

The only problem with the infinite is that you have to do it consistently while the opponent is mashing the **** out of the buttons to break out, which is why the infinite doesn't really make much of a difference in the first place.

 

[Immortal_One]

As long as it isn't spammed, It's kosher in my book. That's why I'm perfectly fine with it. Infinite chaingrabs make me angry though, because it gets to the point that it's as low as spamming with Meta Knight, or any other widely spammed character.

 

[XxBlackxX]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23UyrHXK36A& (7:25) the guy attemping it really sucks there btw.

ive also been a victim of this first hand. unless theres some secret button mash pattern i just can't escape from it

EXACTLY. ONLY 5 characters! so i guess you main luigi might be the reason you think it is cheap, but since it only works on 5 out of 37 characters (and none of them except DK are widely used at tournies), it is a bit situational.

 

[chic]

yea i guess. id rather face snake and mk 2v1 than a ddd nowadays

 

[bobson]

EXACTLY. ONLY 5 characters! so i guess you main luigi might be the reason you think it is cheap, but since it only works on 5 out of 37 characters (and none of them except DK are widely used at tournies), it is a bit situational.

Would it be banned if it worked on 10 out of 37 characters? If it worked everyone in top tier? Would a technique that allowed, say, ROB to instantly win the match without doing anything if he faced Mr. Game & Watch on Battlefield be allowed?

This isn't a Ganondorf VS Marth type thing where a skilled player can overcome the matchup against a lesser-skilled opponent, this is losing a stock every time you get close to your enemy.

 

[nhdogq03]

In my opinion, I only think a chain grab is cheap if

A. The person uses it more than 2 times a match

B. Someone tries to do a cahingrab everytime they get close to their opponent.

 

[rehab]

You just described how Dedede plays.

 

[SuSa]

Would it be banned if it worked on 10 out of 37 characters? If it worked everyone in top tier? Would a technique that allowed, say, ROB to instantly win the match without doing anything if he faced Mr. Game & Watch on Battlefield be allowed?

This isn't a Ganondorf VS Marth type thing where a skilled player can overcome the matchup against a lesser-skilled opponent, this is losing a stock every time you get close to your enemy.

Space better or take up secondaries.

Many people take up a second char. to beat Metaknight. (often times, Metaknight himself)

Learn to Counterpick.


@nhdogg

1. The point is to rack up damage, I'll use it 2000000000 times if need be.

2. LOL? Thats not a good chaingrabber if they oppurtunity to chaingrab is dangled in front of them, they can reach it, but they don't.

If you can, then do it.

 

[XxBlackxX]

actually even against a d3 a skilled player can overcome the chaingrabing and win. it is easier with some characters and obviously (a lot) harder with others. that's why if you want to play competitively, pick 2 alts.

@nhdogg
a d3 that doesnt cg more than 2 times in a real game is a bad d3
and if youre leaving yourself open to grabs, youre gonna get chaingrabbed, they arent being cheap if youre being stupid...

EDIT: by real game i meant a game where it counts like a tourney game

 

[bobson]

Space better or take up secondaries.

Yeah, spacing better solves everything. Let me illustrate my point.

This code:
4A000000 90180F7C
140000CC 42C80000
E0000000 80008000
will make every attack player 2 uses an instant kill. Activate it and face a competent tournament Luigi with the rules as follows: Luigi must be player 2, cannot jump, and cannot use specials. This roughly represents the matchup of King Dedede versus those he can infinite. If you lose, you should've "spaced better."

Why should I be forced to counterpick in a matchup that is potentially not that difficult without an exploit? Why shouldn't the TOs take the logical route and ban the clearly unfair and simple to regulate tactic?

 

[XxBlackxX]

@bobson
because it is YOUR choice to use someone that can be infinite grabbed by d3. banning infinites just so YOU can stay as the character YOU chose is unfair for the d3 player imo. it is part of his move arsensal so why shouldnt they use it?

"Why should I be forced to counterpick in a matchup that is potentially not that difficult without an exploit? Why shouldn't the TOs take the logical route and ban the clearly unfair and simple to regulate tactic?"

well then lemme ask you this: why should the D3 player be forced to change their strategy when it is completely legitimate and it is your decision to stick with a character that can be inifinite-ed.

basically
if you want to play competitively at tournies, either deal with ur main's bad matchups or pick alts!

also, if it's SOOOO easy, why dont you pick D3 and beat your opponent at it?

 

[Hyper_Ridley]

Yeah, spacing better solves everything. Let me illustrate my point.

This code:
4A000000 90180F7C
140000CC 42C80000
E0000000 80008000
will make every attack player 2 uses an instant kill. Activate it and face a competent tournament Luigi with the rules as follows: Luigi must be player 2, cannot jump, and cannot use specials. This roughly represents the matchup of King Dedede versus those he can infinite. If you lose, you should've "spaced better."

Why should I be forced to counterpick in a matchup that is potentially not that difficult without an exploit? Why shouldn't the TOs take the logical route and ban the clearly unfair and simple to regulate tactic?

Dedede can't do an infinite unless there's a wall or walk-off, both of which tend to only be present in banned stages. Othewise he can only do 3 or so grabs before the opponent falls of the edge and Dedede can no longer grab him.

 

[bobson]

@bobson
because it is YOUR choice to use someone that can be infinite grabbed by d3. banning infinites just so YOU can stay as the character YOU chose is unfair for the d3 player imo. it is part of his move arsensal so why shouldnt they use it?

Metaknight's infinite dimensional cape is part of his arsenal, so why shouldn't Metaknight mains use it to stall and win matches? Because it's broken. It's cheap. It undermines the entire purpose of tournaments by allowing a very unskilled player to win by using only one extremely hard to beat tactic.

Would stalling with Metaknight's infinite dimensional cape be banned if he could only use it against five characters? By your logic, it shouldn't.

well then lemme ask you this: why should the D3 player be forced to change their strategy when it is completely legitimate and it is your decision to stick with a character that can be inifinite-ed.

King Dedede's infinites are not legitimate strategies. Prove otherwise and I'll gladly concede that they shouldn't be banned.

Dedede can't do an infinite unless there's a wall or walk-off, both of which tend to only be present in banned stages. Othewise he can only do 3 or so grabs before the opponent falls of the edge and Dedede can no longer grab him.

King Dedede can regrab Mario, Luigi, Samus, and Donkey Kong before they move out of his grab range and before they're able to react. If it was merely a chaingrab, I wouldn't be bothered by it.

 

[XxBlackxX]

ok...ill address this one first:
"King Dedede's infinites are not legitimate strategies. Prove otherwise and I'll gladly concede that they shouldn't be banned."
well why arent they a legitimate strategy? unlike MK's cape glitch, it actually takes skill to do (kinda) and was put into the game on purpose (i cant prove this one though...) and why arent they a legit strategy?

and...
"Metaknight's infinite dimensional cape is part of his arsenal, so why shouldn't Metaknight mains use it to stall and win matches? Because it's broken. It's cheap. It undermines the entire purpose of tournaments by allowing a very unskilled player to win by using only one extremely hard to beat tactic."
again, what part of counterpick do you not understand? ok...by your logic, why arent D3s winning all the tournies? because people use characters that he can't infinite grab against him!

anyways...im done with this topic for the night.

 

[OmegaXF]

Yeah, spacing better solves everything. Let me illustrate my point.

This code:
4A000000 90180F7C
140000CC 42C80000
E0000000 80008000
will make every attack player 2 uses an instant kill. Activate it and face a competent tournament Luigi with the rules as follows: Luigi must be player 2, cannot jump, and cannot use specials. This roughly represents the matchup of King Dedede versus those he can infinite. If you lose, you should've "spaced better."

Why should I be forced to counterpick in a matchup that is potentially not that difficult without an exploit? Why shouldn't the TOs take the logical route and ban the clearly unfair and simple to regulate tactic?

First off thats a code.Something that wasn't originally in the game so that won't even be a good situation to throw out their. Second CG isn't cheap. It's part of competitive play. Competitive play leaves little room for mistakes in the Smash World. And CG just seems to be a perfect punisher and a wonderful tactic in Competitive play. Also if something is broken or extremely cheap then we in the Smash community will find a way over that obstacle and make a suitable situation of it. CG is not cheap if you want the short answer.

 

[Hyper_Ridley]

@bobson: There's more to countering characters than just infinites I'm sure there are plenty of "fair" moves that make it very easy for certain characters to win certain matchups. Guess what players do in those situations? They find a counter-pick for those matches.

At the end of the day, getting rid of infinites, while it may balance the game slightly, will not magically make all of those characters awesome in tourneys, except for DK, who is already awesome.


@Black: I highly doubt that an infinite would be intentionally be placed into a game. That's basically intentionally making a game a bad competitive game (but then again, that's just what the designers wanted).

 

[OrlanduEX]

Are you guys serious? What kind of scrub s*** is this? You guys really spent 18 pages discussing the "cheapness" of a perfectly legitimate tactic? Is this Tactical discussion or General discussion?

First of all, the word cheap is the hallmark of the scrub, a meaningless term used to describe tactics that seem unbeatable. It should not be in the lexicon of any serious Smash player. You get better by coming up with ways to beat tactics that beat you. You do not whine about how "cheap" it is and how people shouldn't use it.
Have any of you guys read Sirlin's Playing to Win?

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm

Read this and stop posting scrubby threads like this outside of General discussion.

 

[Hyper_Ridley]

Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure that a lot of us were defending chain-grabbing, not calling it cheap.

 

[bobson]

well why arent they a legitimate strategy? unlike MK's cape glitch, it actually takes skill to do (kinda) and was put into the game on purpose (i cant prove this one though...) and why arent they a legit strategy?

All it takes is muscle memory, like Metaknight's IDC. I highly doubt that the infinites were intended.
Why it is not a legitimate strategy can be summed up with its extremely obscured risk/reward ratio. It's a free stock for a move as fast as a jab with good range and very little cooldown that takes very little skill beyond memorizing the timing to pull off.
Your turn. Tell me why it should be allowed in the first place.

again, what part of counterpick do you not understand? ok...by your logic, why arent D3s winning all the tournies? because people use characters that he can't infinite grab against him!

I shouldn't be forced to counterpick because of a single programming exploit that happens to guarantee a win against my main. Samus could potentially do okay against King Dedede, but we'll never know, because Samus mainers automatically lose this matchup due to one single broken tactic. Here's a quandary: A stage in SSB4 has no edges, effectively screwing over any character that relies on a tether recovery. Should that stage be banned, or should people who main tether characters just deal with losing every counterpick?

@bobson: There's more to countering characters than just infinites I'm sure there are plenty of "fair" moves that make it very easy for certain characters to win certain matchups. Guess what players do in those situations? They find a counter-pick for those matches.

But those moves can be potentially countered, and once they're used, they don't automatically guarantee that the opponent loses a stock. An unskilled Metaknight can easily lose to a skilled Ganondorf. An unskilled King Dedede who knows how to infinite will still likely win against a skilled Donkey Kong, because all it takes is one grab to gain a stock.

At the end of the day, getting rid of infinites, while it may balance the game slightly, will not magically make all of those characters awesome in tourneys, except for DK, who is already awesome.

So... you agree that getting rid of Dedede's infinites would balance the game slightly more, a decidedly good thing. I'm not asking for Mario to suddenly be God Tier, I'm asking for an obviously broken tactic that wasn't intended to be in the game anyway to be removed.

Also if something is broken or extremely cheap then we in the Smash community will find a way over that obstacle and make a suitable situation of it.

Yeah, like banning it. And since you seemed to've missed the point of my post: Chaingrabs are fine. Infinites are bull****.

 

[Oblivinati]

actually even against a d3 a skilled player can overcome the chaingrabing and win. it is easier with some characters and obviously (a lot) harder with others. that's why if you want to play competitively, pick 2 alts.

@nhdogg
a d3 that doesnt cg more than 2 times in a real game is a bad d3
and if youre leaving yourself open to grabs, youre gonna get chaingrabbed, they arent being cheap if youre being stupid...

EDIT: by real game i meant a game where it counts like a tourney game

I hope you're not talking about escaping the actual chain grab once it starts, you better believe if they're on the chain grab list, they're not escaping unless under my jurisdiction.

 

[kupo15]

Its only what, three throws in a row for DDD? Big whoop, its part of his metagame, learn to deal with it and accept it. Falco is what, 6 or whatever brings you to around 40-60. Its not that big a deal but I agree that infinites are stupid.

I assume the same person said that snake was broken. aigoo! :\

 

[Barge]

Its only what, three throws in a row for DDD? Big whoop, its part of his metagame, learn to deal with it and accept it. Falco is what, 6 or whatever brings you to around 40-60. Its not that big a deal but I agree that infinites are stupid.

I assume the same person said that snake was broken :\

Snakes tilts are broken, nothing else.

 

[MasterWarlord]

Chain grabs should be banned from serious play. This comes from somebody who has to abuse D3's chain grabs to win.

 

[kupo15]

Snakes tilts are broken, nothing else.

Maybe, but I dont think so. If you space yourself as to not get hit by them, snake isn't as powerful anymore. The tilts are predictable and thats one of the main strategies that one just has to accept and deal with. They are pretty avoidable if you are smart or have some good spacing tool like Pit does (yes I have played good snakes in case your wondering)

 

[Barge]

Maybe, but I dont think so. If you space yourself as to not get hit by them, snake isn't as powerful anymore. The tilts are predictable and thats one of the main strategies that one just has to accept and deal with. They are pretty avoidable if you are smart or have some good spacing tool like Pit does (yes I have played good snakes in case your wondering)

Too much effort to trying to avoid a lagless attack, its snakes main attacks you know >_>

Ftilt does 21%....
and the first hit stuns you.

Uptilt has insane range and knockback.

Seriously, you're standing 5 feet from him and he hits you with uptilt >:O

dtilt leads into a lot of stuff, and has good knockback

 

[bobson]

Maybe, but I dont think so. If you space yourself as to not get hit by them, snake isn't as powerful anymore. The tilts are predictable and thats one of the main strategies that one just has to accept and deal with. They are pretty avoidable if you are smart or have some good spacing tool like Pit does (yes I have played good snakes in case your wondering)

The problem with Snake's tilts is summed up with this image.

 

[kupo15]

Yup, i understand, but if you take it away (Since you said it is his main attack) what does he have left? I know as a pit main, i have no problems with snake and they are my favorite match up

EDIT: LOL at the pic. But the way I figure, he needs the range to combo with his usmash. Idk, I just learned to accept it and found a way around it. Snake doesn't bother me at all.

 

[Barge]

He has dacus, grenades, mines, bombs, rockets, missles, explosives, aerials everything D:

and can kill you with his jab for christs sake!

 

[kupo15]

lol i know! Im pit though...I have the tools to counter all of that stuff...really....i do...

i have vids if you like

 

[aeghrur]

Snakes tilts should not be banned. They're broken, but they're a large part of his metagame.
Chaingrabs should not be banned, they're a tool used by characters to gain some % and help control their position on stage. It's not cheap, just don't get grabbed or counterpick a stage made of platforms. Chaingrabs aren't infinites. Infinites, meanwhile, are debatable. =/