Is All-Brawl the future competitive standard?

[ph00tbag]

Why does something have to be externally disallowed to be a ban?

If that's true, then nothing in sports are ever banned, because it's all done within the confines of the sport.

Apples and oranges. You're stretching the analogy to the breaking point, and it's a logical fallacy.

 

[Pearl Floatzel]

That would be a rather idiotic assertion to make. I'm however uncomfortable with the idea that skill is finite and it is somehow consumed by chance events. This isn't a time-share villa by the beach where one can't coexist with the other.

What? Skill is finite. Go look at Mew2King in Melee and tell me that isn't skill. But then, imagine an exploding capsule spontaneously spawning right at he's about to tipper FSmash for the win. He was just about to win because of his incredible skill, but instead the game randomly killed him. There is a nonzero chance that the item will spawn. That means that at some tourney, OS, or Azen, or M2K (They would quit anyway) would lose to a scrub and not get first when they deserved it.

Well, your premise is flawed from the beginning. Smash isn't a perfect, ideal 100% skill-based game.

Lol. He said it was hypothetical. The point is, if you add items, whether it's a 100% perfect game, or Brawl, it reduces the skill required and increases the luck.

Firstly, any player worth their salt would be trying to edgeguard the recovering person anyhow. Which for a good bunch of characters means leaving the stage or chucking projectiles. Secondly, someone trying to grab a bomb to ensure a death will give the opponent more time to recover, hit the ledge and get key invincibility frames. Thirdly, unless they're under the stage the use of the air dodge will place the item in the recoverer's hands as air dodging while rising upwards is often unwise. Allowing the recoverer to retaliate against the other person, I might add.

So no, your claim isn't as reasonable as it looks at first glance.

Lolwut? He said nothing about recovering. You're responding to his point which was more like my M2K FSmash situation than your bizarre recovering situation. On the other hand, let's see what happens.

Marth just got knocked off the edge on Battlefield. There's a Bob-Omb sitting on the stage, and both players know it's about to start walking because of their now-innate knowledge of Bob-Ombs. The other player, an Ike, decides to sit on the leftmost platform and charge Eruption so Marth cannot recover high. Marth is given the choice of falling into a fully charged Eruption or going to the ledge. Marth drops beneath the stage as the Bob-Omb turns around at the ledge. Marth Dolphin Slashes, and dies because his sword hits the Bob-Omb. Seems pretty clever, huh? The Ike used the items to his advantage, and won. However, here's where the luck comes in. That Ike never would have succeeded if the random item spawn had not spawned a Bob-Omb at exactly the right time on the bottom level. It requires skill, yes. However, it increases the luck in the game, and the Marth could be justified in johnning about the item spawn.

Problem is, you're not fair to make the assumption because there's a significant degree of non-randomness in the randomness.

Firstly, all items have discrete spawn points on every stage. The player who controls the areas of the map that have spawn points will obtain more items. It might be a less tactically useful position to fight from, but that's a risk vs reward thing.

Secondly, item spawns are weighted. Surely even you have noticed you'll see 50 smoke balls for every bob-omb that spawns, right? The more items are on, the more this pool is diluted and you'll end up with very predictable sets of items appearing throughout most matches. Thirdly, (as is especially apparent with Smash Balls and the Dragoon) the game takes a pool of the available items each round and won't spawn other items each round.

Fourthly, items spawn at pretty regular intervals. On medium, items will spawn approximately every 10-20 seconds. Considering how closely people keep track of the clock anyhow, this should be trivial.

Considering you guys use a best of 3 format, the argument against item gimpage becomes weaker. With a full set of items, you're about as likely to get bomb-screwed as a peach is going to win all of her matches in a set by pulling bob-ombs.

The problem is, the items that spawn are pretty random. I can almost guarantee a Smash Ball in a Medium match with items on for any amount of time over 2 minutes. And then it becomes a match to run away from Sonic, Fox, Falco, Marth, and everyone who has gotten a Final Smash except Peach.
Items do not spawn regularly. If you average it, yes. If you actually watch a match, no. It is random. No way around the amount of items spawning.

No - you can't control the random number generator behind the luck. But you can make intelligent decisions and actions that put any actions by the random number generator in your favour. A player who does this will gain the advantage over an opponent who doesn't.

I never even mentioned anything of the sort. I'm just talking about items on the whole here, and the stigma about them. The SB community is too stubborn to budge unless the gods of the SBR decree it to be so and I never intend to bother to change that.

We have tested. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164675 I'm fully in support of this. But you must realize that some items are just broken. If you had proposed something less radical than basically making competitive gaming item-and-stage dependent, then you might have gotten some support. But with stages like WarioWare, it's pretty obvious that the focus is to stall until the Minigames. That's how you win. On Big Blue, it changes the game from "knock your opponent off the edge" to "Knock your opponent onto the road." What we're concerned about it changing the game from an at least somewhat skill based game (Tripping and autosweetspot are taking away from that) to a game based on knocking your opponent into stage hazards and picking up items like capsules and getting Final Smashes. That's the problem. Your method and our method are different games.

In case you didn't notice, members of the Brawl scene are frothing at the mouth to turn on the hacks and make Melee 2.0. There's a lynch mob on Meta-Knight's door that's growing day by day as tournaments become who has the best Meta-Knight and everyone else is giving up and quitting or going back to Melee. I'm not so sure you can qualify the brawl scene as 'not broken'.

Regardless, I'm a scientist. I like to break things just to see what happens, learn and improve. It's a risk, but it can be fulfilling.

Everyone else is not giving up or going back to Melee. They're playing the game. Metaknight may or may not be broken, but it's a reasonable debate. If a character dominates against the cast, they should be banned. If they create a different game, banned. Changing the game is what we don't want.

I thought the rhetoric of the anti-item players was that the better players would still consistently win and place in tournaments compared to those who were bad. Regardless, like I outlined above there is a lot less random in the random. Bad players will still lose. Good players will still win. It's not like the game suddenly becomes Pokeballs, Smash Balls, Assist Trophies and Bob-ombs on High.

You'll widen the standard deviation by a touch (The lower rankings of a tournament might shuffle around a bit, but I wouldn't expect much) but the average's going to remain dead centre where it is. The best will still win, time and time again.

Yes, bad players will lose, but good players would end up finding out how to manipulate the items to the extreme. The items become the center of the gameplay, and the question becomes who gets the Fan near them, or the Sticky Bomb. It's free damage, and definitely requires less skill. It's ridiculously easy to kill someone with a fan. Stupid easy.

Strangely enough, most game communties are fond of banning as little as humanly possible - the only thing other games actually tend to ban are Akumas.

Secondly, you're giving item appearances far too much weight. If it were really true, Peach should be causing far more upsets than she does in both games. Secondly, although you might not know this having not used them much but most of the items have had massively tweaked properties from the previous game. A thrown star-rod is no longer a guaranteed insta-spike for example. The Warp Star is slower. Pokeballs now have a specific pokemon rotation that usually results in masses of goldeen, bonsly or piplup.

An appropriate equivalent would be applying Melee's Tier list to Brawl's characters from the get go. Falcon was pretty good in Melee, so he's pretty good in Brawl, right? Items were broken in Melee, so they must be broken in brawl right? They're both equivalently valuable statements. Eg, worthless.

It is just a theory that the game is "better" without items for competition for brawl- there's no rigour to it. No results to back it. No research to confirm it. It's as valid as a politician's election campaign speech when push comes to shove.

See the above items standard rule list. There is testing. Massive testing. Two months. You need to do your research before arguing.

Strangely enough, these people you deride are the future of your community. Unless you're converting people from other hardcore fighting game communities. Which is unlikely considering what they all think of Smash in general.

These people do not care about the future of the community. They don't go to tournaments, and do not know what the word "Metagame" means. And I would suggest not insulting the game you're claiming to want to improve. It makes you look like a hypocrite.

So why is their opponent just sitting there, twiddling their thumbs waiting for Falcon to grab these killing tools again? Has his opponent gone to take a leak? Can you really envision that allowing a Falcon to smash a Meta-Knight who will pressure him to death?

Falcon is a bad example. Try Sonic. He just stalls by running away until a good item comes. It's easy, simple and it works. Besides, under your system he can just pick Temple or New Pork City and run away. Sonic is god with all stages and all items. You can't pressure, because he has no incentive to hurt you until he gets a Bob-Omb or a Fan or a Smash Ball.

Please consider the items-standard rule list.

 

[DRaGZ]

Apples and oranges. You're stretching the analogy to the breaking point, and it's a logical fallacy.

Why is it apples and oranges? Isn't both Smash and sports designed to be competitive?

 

[infernovia]

All-brawl is a terrible idea. They are against banning anything. Not fun with 75m, hyrule, new pork city, and walk off ledges. Items on interests me, but in general, the average skill level of the guys who are supporting this format is near newbie level and they aren't breaking the game.

 

[Ills]

Sure is flamefest in here.

Did we forget about the Standard Item Play thread?

 

[AlphaZealot]

I played in an All-Brawl tournament this last weekend with 30 entrants.

It was a lot of fun. I feel 90-95% of the matches I should have won, I did win, and 100% of the sets I should have won, I did win.

I played Forward in the finals, winners finals went to game 5, finals finals also went to game 5. We had a match on Hyrule Temple that was sick.

It's a great side tournament.

Items tests a lot of random knowledge and your own creativity. For example, against Pyro one match he was at 2s 140%ish, I was at 2 stock mid-high %ish. I had 2 dragon pieces (one I just picked up), and he had 1 dragon piece. Now, if you know about items, you know that after you kill someone that the dragon piece they are holding will come out when they respawn. So, before I killed Pyro, I told myself "Kill him, then DON'T grab the piece right away, instead make him trip and then grab the piece", about 3 seconds later, I KO'd him, made him trip, grabbed the third dragon piece, and hit him while he was in his trip animation, ending the game. That was not luck.

 

[ShadowLink84]

The problem with that AZ is that it is only one case of yourself managing to pull it off.
What if an explosive capsule appeared right before you could KO him and lost your 2 pieces allowing Pyro to gain at least 2 pieces of the dragoon?

There is just too little data to support that an allbrawl tournament set would be beneficial.
Let alone the many other factors that could have happened as well.

 

[AlphaZealot]

What if an explosive capsule appeared right before you could KO him and lost your 2 pieces allowing Pyro to gain at least 2 pieces of the dragoon?

An impossibility, there was an item spawn (the third dragon piece which I grabbed I believe) about 3 seconds before I KO'd him. The next spawn would not occur for about 7-12 seconds.

I used the spawn window to capitalize on my opponents pretty much every match. It was simply "wreck them with nanas, then at 2:51 try to knock them off the stage and grab the spawn". If that wasn't successful, I threw nanas around the stage for distractions.

I'm not saying All-Brawl is better than no-items Brawl. I do think most people have no idea what they are talking about when they compare the two.

 

[xXArrowXx]

firstly a little luck is fun... like poker =P

but these rules are too extreme.. the way the community is now cant handle them..
start by unbanning some stages...

the items are interesting.....
the winner is normally in the right place for items when they spawn =P as the loser is normally off stage anyway. random bombs dont happen that often lol.. its not like the game is out to kill you its just got some luck in it =P plus u can dodge items =P they aren't super godly

but yeah the way the rules are now are fine also =P

which is more balanced.. captain falcon vs mk with items or without (if the same person could play them self)

 

[ShadowLink84]

An impossibility, there was an item spawn (the third dragon piece which I grabbed I believe) about 3 seconds before I KO'd him. The next spawn would not occur for about 7-12 seconds.

I used the spawn window to capitalize on my opponents pretty much every match. It was simply "wreck them with nanas, then at 2:51 try to knock them off the stage and grab the spawn". If that wasn't successful, I threw nanas around the stage for distractions.

I'm not saying All-Brawl is better than no-items Brawl. I do think most people have no idea what they are talking about when they compare the two.

Oh yeah I forgot about the window time. Silly me
However might I inquire as to how many times a plan of yours failed due to the items?

I am not saying you believe items brawl is better than no brawl.
I am however curious as to how all brawl can even be considered considering the nature of the items provided.
Considering the Item format already in place (which works better IMO).

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

Praxis: At first, I thought the same thing. I was thinking, "How can you leave all items on when someone can just grab a Star or a Final Smash and dominate?" However, if you follow the links I posted at the beginning, you would see the matches are only 2 stocks and 3 minutes long in a best 3 out of 5. That means that matches should go by fast enough for items to not have a great impact. In fact, according to many people, the items make surprisingly little difference in keeping a better player from losing to a lesser skilled player, while at the same time adding a new depth of strategy to the fight. Again, it's easy to say something's no good without ever trying it, but things change when you actually put it to the test.

Also, how can you have Mind Games if you don't even have an Open Mind =O.

Well everyone will then just play Jigglypuff and stall the whole game till sudden death kicks in.

Their rule set is severely flawed.

You mention that some people say the items make little difference, but they STILL DO make a difference.

Cliche Bomb-omb spawns at the finals for 5000k. It spawns by your opponent. Opponent gets it. You cry.

As long as items are on, it's anyones game. It doesn't matter what skill level you are.

Edit: Now that I think about it, didn't Ken, a veteran smasher get beaten by a 14 year old kid at EVO 2008? Items definietly didn't contribute to that kids win.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Its fairly simple, players I was better than I managed to grab the items before them probably 80-90% of the time, that 10-20% where I didn't succeed, only rarely did it make a difference in the match, and since it was best of 5 it was okay if I lost just 1, or even 2, matches because of such things. Probably more than half my matches I two stocked the opponent, in a two stock game.

Forward and I basically went back and forth ****** each other on counter picks because we are essentially evenly matched (with a slight advantage in his favor). he went 4-0 on his CP's, I went 3-1, with that 1 being one of only a handful of matches I felt I should have won.

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

Its fairly simple, players I was better than I managed to grab the items before them probably 80-90% of the time, that 10-20% where I didn't succeed, only rarely did it make a difference in the match, and since it was best of 5 it was okay if I lost just 1, or even 2, matches because of such things. Probably more than half my matches I two stocked the opponent, in a two stock game.

Forward and I basically went back and forth ****** each other on counter picks because we are essentially evenly matched (with a slight advantage in his favor). he went 4-0 on his CP's, I went 3-1, with that 1 being one of only a handful of matches I felt I should have won.

I believe that certain characters have the advantage in getting the items they want.

I was wondering, do you prefer the All Brawl rule set over traditional?

 

[ShadowLink84]

*reads first paragraph* hmm understandable.

*reads second* ouch.

@hit or miss: I don't believe he has stated it. He said he likes the allbrawl ruleset not that its better or preferable to the no item set.

 

[ftl]

Why is it apples and oranges? Isn't both Smash and sports designed to be competitive?

No. Smash is pretty expressly NOT designed to be competitive. It's designed to be a fun party game.

There is nothing wrong with some randomness in-game. Lots of card games are games of luck, and yet can still be played competitively. The key is to make sure the individual games or sets are long enough so that randomness will pretty much always average out over the course of them.

I'm not so sure that all-brawl can do that. A single 'lucky' item could mean a difference of a stock or half a stock. Regardless of the skill involved in being the person to get that item, there's always the chance that, when playing someone of equal skill, they'll do the same to you, and they get the next item - but if the item they get is worthless and yours is great, that's still a big difference. And when matches are 2-stock, that difference could decide a match... and with all stages on, it's probably possible for someone with to just keep counterpicking ridiculous stages for their character to carry that advantage on to win the entire thing.


On the other hand, AZ said that in his case, he won pretty much all the matches he expected to win, so maybe it does average out. Based on his experience, it's certainly something that shouldn't be discarded off-hand.

My worry is that if people really take it seriously and practice at it, you'll get a much higher fraction of lame-level-infinites and "take a stock and circle-camp" behavior, and if EVERYONE starts being smart about trying to get items, the luck of who gets what will increase (since, in a relatively evenly fought match, both players will be getting items, and who gets what will matter more). AZ said that in the finals, he felt like Forward had a slight advantage on him, but they were both ****** each other on counterpicks. In a match that close, it would only have taken one or two 'lucky' items to flip the win from Forward (who he said was playing slightly better) to him. So that's worrisome. On the other hand, maybe it really does even out, as it did in AZ's case.

Really, what it boils down to is - does item randomness average out over the duration of a game. Is it reasonably possible to make the set go long enough so that all the random gunk evens out, but still short enough that tournaments can finish? Based on AZ's input, I'm changing my opinion from "probably not" to "maybe", and I'd certainly be willing to enter into one and try... but certainly NOT something I'd want to become a competitive standard anywhere right now.

I believe that certain characters have the advantage in getting the items they want.

Of course. Tiers will still exist with items on. They'll just be different.

Characters with reflectors will go up. Faster characters will go up, because they'll be better at getting the items they want. There'll probably be other changes too.

That doesn't really matter, IMO.

 

[Geist]

plus u can dodge items =P they aren't super godly

superspicy curry... *cough cough*



Competitively, melee began with items. They did this because it was supported by the argument that melee was not the same as 64. Items were banned.
Items create too many variables for competition. That isn't what competition is about.
Imagine what competitive sports would be like if they had to play with random events that they couldn't control. It would be a joke.

The fact that they have ALL the items turned on is atrocious. I think we're all familiar with the chaos that can erupt from this. While recovering back to the stage, a heart container appears next to their opponent. In the middle of a close combat fight, a bob-omb randomly spawns.
I laugh when I see people trying to counter this argument with something like "a good player can avoid items, so it takes skill", when they are completely oblivious to the fact that a skilled player will not miss. What both sides fail to recognize is that in a match with two equally skilled players, it is still completely random who will get it, and at a completely random time.

Just the entire idea of items in competitive play is ridiculous. Adding insult to injury, their next rule is to have all stages legal, and completely random. Great. You've succeeded in taking out a large strategical portion of the game. This also randomly determines if your character that you're playing is going to do well or not. There is a great chance that Fox will be able to shine lock you. If the stage happens to be big, faster or spammy characters will completely dominate the metagame, completely at random. Factor in items to this.

Items in competitive play is an oxymoron, through-and-though. It doesn't matter if you had fun doing it. This does not make it competitive. Both casual play and competitive play can be extremely fun.
This will not make it to the standard tournament. If they even attempt it, they should be ready to lose an enormous percentage of players.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I was wondering, do you prefer the All Brawl rule set over traditional

No. But the arguments against All-Brawl are largely exaggerated/untrue. I would definitely enter a $5 All-Brawl tournament again if held with no-items tournaments. I would not travel cross country for the All-Brawl ruleset, but I do think its a great extra event to have that you can run concurrently with regular Brawl Singles/Doubles.

Forward and I each won about equal number of regular spawns. He held the advantage in Smashball's won because of two factors:
1) On more then one occasion I had plenty of space/oppurtunity to hit the Smashball and I simply wiffed repeatedly.
2) Snake can break the Smashball in 1-2 hits within 5-7 seconds of it spawn. Diddy can only break the Smashball within about 7 seconds after 3-4 hits.

My only complaints are pretty much assist trophies and poke balls, Pokeballs really are a problem because I don't think I got one **** Pokemon the whole tournament, while my opponents got legendaries. Assist trophes are a similar problem (Nintendog covering the screen, sigh). All other items are not to big of a deal.

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

No. But the arguments against All-Brawl are largely exaggerated/untrue. I would definitely enter a $5 All-Brawl tournament again if held with no-items tournaments. I would not travel cross country for the All-Brawl ruleset, but I do think its a great extra event to have that you can run concurrently with regular Brawl Singles/Doubles.

Everything you said here definitely is appealing. It strongly believe that All Brawl rules set should be implemented in side fun tournaments and never in the high stakes tournaments.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

AZ, I'd just like to point out that probably a big part of why you liked All-Brawl so much is because you use Diddy. Items on with Diddy is incredible, because he can just glide toss all day long. But items on with any other character in the game isn't nearly as satisfying.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I'm aware that Diddy gets a bump in the All-Brawl tier list.

And yes, he *****.

Forward had many of the similar thoughts that I did, and he used Snake.

 

[Turbo Ether]

I kinda want to try this out. Keits' reasoning for the rule set sounds pretty legit.

 

[Jewdo]

The All Brawl rule set was created by a giant troll. When you read them, you should find that the All Brawl rules directly contradict everything that SBR has deemed to be fair for competitive play. A rogue SRK poster just decided to piss off all of SWF by defying us in every way, and you know what? It worked. But you shouldn't post in anger. You're giving him what he wants.

DON'T FEED THE TROLLS.

 

[Dark Sonic]

AZ, why did you play on Hyrule temple? And what do you think would've happend if your opponent picked Fox or Sonic hit you once and ran around in circles?

You guys probably didn't do that, but you were also thinking more about "fun" and less about "winning" or else you would've simply abused the most broken strategies against each other for guranteed wins.

 

[Turbo Ether]

AZ, why did you play on Hyrule temple? And what do you think would've happend if your opponent picked Fox or Sonic hit you once and ran around in circles?

You guys probably didn't do that, but you were also thinking more about "fun" and less about "winning" or else you would've simply abused the most broken strategies against each other for guranteed wins.

You didn't read Keits' ruleset apparently.

 

[Lord Yawgmoth]

Also, Alpha Zealot, wouldn't it be a fair assumption to make that you were ALOT better than almost anyone else there, minus Forward?

I think the extent that Items really matter are where people are really close in skill, probably you and Forward, and the person who is less skilled, or played worse that day, still ends up winning.


I know it doesn't have a giant impact on every game. but games are won and lost because of luck. Isn't that enough?



Note: I am not, in any way, shape or form making fun of people who like All-Brawl (maybe with a small exception of that one guy whos name begins with 'X' who seems to deny the fact that items even slighty take away from skill being the deciding factor) I would probably even go to one if it was really close.

If you like this event. : ) good for you, I'm glad that there are tournaments that cater to your taste, no joke, but it is still isn't quite as fair as the SBR standard and shouldnt be adopted as the norm.

 

[fromundaman]

I pretty much agree with what everyone else has been saying so far. Doesn't seem fair enough to make a competitive norm, but it could be a fun to do in a less competitive atmosphere.

Personally, I think I'd have fun with either ruleset.

 

[salaboB]

I pretty much agree with what everyone else has been saying so far. Doesn't seem fair enough to make a competitive norm, but it could be a fun to do in a less competitive atmosphere.

Personally, I think I'd have fun with either ruleset.

If they used the item standard's item set it would be better, as those have been tweaked a lot to keep the items that aren't just "Hey I got this item I get a free stock off you"

 

[AlphaZealot]

AZ, why did you play on Hyrule temple? And what do you think would've happend if your opponent picked Fox or Sonic hit you once and ran around in circles?

You guys probably didn't do that, but you were also thinking more about "fun" and less about "winning" or else you would've simply abused the most broken strategies against each other for guranteed wins.

I would have waited probably on the top portion, where Smashballs/items are more likely to spawn. Even then, if nothing else happened the rest of the match, then it goes to sudden death because percent leads are meaningless.

As I said before, most people don't know what they are talking about when they talk about the All-Brawl rulesets/items debate.

 

[Voidious]

Forward and I basically went back and forth ****** each other on counter picks because we are essentially evenly matched (with a slight advantage in his favor). he went 4-0 on his CP's, I went 3-1, with that 1 being one of only a handful of matches I felt I should have won.

First, thanks for the recap on the All-Brawl format. I truly don't mean to seem argumentative, I'm just compelled to comment on a point here.

You seem to downplay that 1 CP loss as "one of only a handful" that you thought should've gone the other way. I'm assuming you mean "should have won [if not for item luck]". Is that right? If so, yes, it's only one game... but from the numbers, wasn't that also the deciding factor of one whole set? And depending on which set it was, possibly the deciding factor of the winner of the whole tourney?

 

[tropewhat]

you guys are being elitist toward SRK. an idea is an idea regardless of where it came from and you shouldn't discredit it based on that alone!

 

[alejo_]

Items in and competative should never be used in the same sentence ever! Items make the game easier than it already is. Yay for crazy *** pokemons and chracters with better specials than others.... Bowser's special sucks compared to sonics....

It just wouldn't be fair. Espeically with 2 stocks... Pure luck!

 

[Smooth Criminal]

you guys are being elitist toward SRK. an idea is an idea regardless of where it came from and you shouldn't discredit it based on that alone!

Did you even read the thread?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Well, yeah even with percent leads being meaningless, they could still wait for the sudden death and then compete with you in a tech war in the cave of life on Hyrule temple, until one of you gets hit by a bombomb and misses the tech.

 

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

^^Well, yeah even with percent leads being meaningless, they could still wait for the sudden death and then compete with you in a tech war in the cave of life on Hyrule temple, until one of you gets hit by a bombomb and misses the tech.

Fun fact: SD Bob-ombs can be caught and are considerably slower dropping than you'd think. They're also "harmless" until they touch ground. For easy low-risk catching, just run under and shield. It'll bounce off and slowly pop into the air.

 

[AlphaZealot]

You seem to downplay that 1 CP loss as "one of only a handful" that you thought should've gone the other way. I'm assuming you mean "should have won [if not for item luck]". Is that right? If so, yes, it's only one game... but from the numbers, wasn't that also the deciding factor of one whole set? And depending on which set it was, possibly the deciding factor of the winner of the whole tourney?

I need to see the vids before I comment, it could have been any number of factors.

The first match in winners finals was on the Icicle mountain/block of ice floating along a river stage (forget its name). It went to sudden death and I suicided about 15 seconds into sudden death. The suicide was caused because I forgot I was holding a banana, so when I tried to dash attack pick up a bomb I instead threw the banana into a bomb and it blew up in my face. Stupid me, I should have stayed in my camping position because Forward was exposed/more likely to have been killed by bombs.

 

[tropewhat]

Did you even read the thread?

Smooth Criminal

Forgive my stupidity. Hopefully someday I will be able to make posts as contributory as this one you just made.

Trope Weezy

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Fun fact: SD Bob-ombs can be caught and are considerably slower dropping than you'd think.

Fun fact: There's still a life pit in Hyrule Temple that you can tech off of infinitely, which is part of the example that Dark Sonic was trying to make.

Edit: Well, I don't need to make an essay to point out that you haven't read the thread in its entirety Trope.

Smooth Criminal

 

[tropewhat]

Fun fact: There's still a life pit in Hyrule Temple that you can tech off of infinitely, which is part of the example that Dark Sonic was trying to make.

Edit: Well, I don't need to make an essay to point out that you haven't read the thread in its entirety Trope.

Smooth Criminal

I assure you that if you did indeed write an essay on my shortcomings, I would read every perfectly articulated thought therein. Never will I ever skip any of your enthralling posts again.

Trope Weezy

 

[Dark Sonic]

Fun fact: SD Bob-ombs can be caught and are considerably slower dropping than you'd think. They're also "harmless" until they touch ground. For easy low-risk catching, just run under and shield. It'll bounce off and slowly pop into the air.

Fun fact: You'll still be chucking bombombs at each other untilt "someone gets hit by a bombomb and misses the tech."

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Hold on a sec, contributory is a word?

WTF.

Mindgames.

And ****. You're eloquent as all get out when you want to be. Thanks for meat-riding my white noise though, Trope.

Smooth Criminal