Introduction to Mental Game

[Citizen Snips]

The get ups are really options for a second read once you miss the first one though. They're not all options at the same time. Like, when I dthrow someone, I don't consider any get ups until they miss the tech and I miss punishing it.

 

[ShroudedOne]

dude, everyone i play with sucks.

Mannnnnnn i beat these kids with game and watch man...

........

=\

Anyways, I just find it easier to react to what people do. This is obviously not optimal when using a slow character, like I have delegated myself to doing, but I think reacting to things is, when your character has the speed to allow you to, always the best option. Perhaps the most mentally stressful, as well.

 

[Melomaniacal]

The get ups are really options for a second read once you miss the first one though. They're not all options at the same time. Like, when I dthrow someone, I don't consider any get ups until they miss the tech and I miss punishing it.

Would you not consider anticipating the missed tech to get a better punish part of the same read?

 

[Divinokage]

Well there's certain moves you can do to make a tech harder to do. IE Downthrow into Jab with Ganon. Normally, people do not tech the jab because it's very hard so you can follow up with a side-B, dair or fair. I've been told many times: "How do you punish a miss tech without being scared of other options that can happen?" Well, normally I react to the animation of the miss tech because it's very distinctive from other animations, so I'll just straight up hit the opponent without any second thoughts. I think that's very important. Do NOT hesitate when you see a punish opportunity, I cannot stress this enough because I see a lot of people going for mindgames or random guesses instead of straight up going for it, that I'll never get.

 

[da K.I.D.]

in the down throw jab situation, thats actually just taking advantage of the games mechanics. If you try to tech something and miss it, you cant tech for... either 15 or 20 frames.

I have a friend that mains marth and he uses that against spacies where he'll up throw them and they try to tech it, but then he'll regrab into a down throw and they arent allowed to try to tech twice in such a short time and its a free down throw into f smash

 

[Citizen Snips]

Would you not consider anticipating the missed tech to get a better punish part of the same read?

Unless I misspace something and can't punish well, the only thing I do on missed techs that would get me a better punish would be a jab reset to regrab, because I would rather punish on a techroll than on a getup roll. Too much time for them to think

 

[da K.I.D.]

if its a guaranteed read/punish, it doesnt matter how much time they have to think.

 

[Palpi]

Really helpful advice, that I have yet to full apply is what Jesiah told me, and this is probably common amongst the higher level players, but I asked him how he punishes miss tech so often while still remaining good at following my tech rolls and such. I guess it is kind of similar to Kage.

He said to get right outside of of get up attack range, by the quickest efficient option whether it is wavedash or dash->wavedash in place or cancelling your dash etc, then to devote most of your attention to the miss tech or tech in place, because they require faster reactions, then if they roll, since a roll is a longer animation, to just punish those on reaction as well.

I think Kage is really good at this with both ganon and falcon, after a dthrow jab, or just dthrow, he times his jump, and positions his jump so if the person tech in any direction, he can usually place and aerial to hit them. I feel like he does this on reaction, because I've seen it happen so much.

 

[Divinokage]

Ya it's pretty much a combination of reactions and experience of seeing the same situation a million times.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

ganon's pretty good at the techchasing game.

falcons better at it.

played $mike's falcon today. that character can cover some options LOL

 

[Citizen Snips]

if its a guaranteed read/punish, it doesnt matter how much time they have to think.

It does if they can figure out which option minimizes my ability to punish

 

[da K.I.D.]

This is melee and you are captain falcon, every punish you have is stupid.

Thats valid for other characters tho.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Falcon has some stupidly strong punishes, though. And the speed to capitalize on them...

But I've been noticing lately that you don't really need speed for adequate tech chases...

 

[Citizen Snips]

Falcon has some stupidly strong punishes, though. And the speed to capitalize on them...

But I've been noticing lately that you don't really need speed for adequate tech chases...

Low speed will certainly cut off a bunch of chases that a faster character could get, but you can certainly tech chase well with any character if you have the skill for it.

Also, Goggles, I'm speaking in general terms here. There's no character specifics.

 

[Divinokage]

Techchasing is not about speed, it's about the ability to cover options, reactions, predictions. I mean of course some characters have it a bit easier but I mean the essentials need to be mastered. Even timing matters in techchases too.

For example, Ganon/Falcon downsmash.. The downsmash has very long range which allows to cover tech in place and tech behind. You have to know the ranges and how moves work and also what kind of habit your opponent may have when you play a certain character or how he is in general.. like more defensive or offensive.

 

[4 Aces]

I recently took up fencing, and I immediately excelled ahead of the rest of the class because I had a much better grasp of mental game than the other students. I was able to talk advanced fencing theory with my teacher, and I hadn't watched a single second of it in my entire life (That's because it's exactly like Marth dittoes).

So whenever you get frustrated because this is really hard and you just can't seem to get it, remember that you're not just learning something new. You're literally reprogramming your brain to think in a more strategic and tactile way. And it is AWESOME.

-Citizen Snips

Wow. Same here. I started fencing last year, and I felt exactly the same way; it's the exact same principles.

 

[da K.I.D.]

1. Is chris the guy that plays brawl with me in your fencing class?

2. I guess that means that Smash as a game is some what accurate, because as I recall, Marth's sword style discipline is actually fencing. Which is why it never made sence to me why he was swinging the sword around in such vast arcs. And also why they changed his neutral B from an overhead slash in Melee, to a forward moving stab in brawl.

 

[Melomaniacal]

1. Is chris the guy that plays brawl with me in your fencing class?

2. I guess that means that Smash as a game is some what accurate, because as I recall, Marth's sword style discipline is actually fencing. Which is why it never made sence to me why he was swinging the sword around in such vast arcs. And also why they changed his neutral B from an overhead slash in Melee, to a forward moving stab in brawl.

Marth is definitely not a fencer. Too much slashing to be foil/epee, too much off-target attacks to be sabre, form is entirely wrong, sword is wrong. Only fencer I can think of in a fighting game is Soul Caliber's Rafael, and even then it's glorified to the point of being... wrong.

Also, this affects the mental game... because... uh... as a fencer, it's distracting to me.

But yeah, spacing principles especially transfer in fencing, due to the two-dimensional playing field. Of course, the principles don't mean you can actually do it. Approaching while staying out of your opponents range in fencing is incredibly difficult, and really the mark of a top-level fencer (at least in sabre). Adjusting speed and distance so quickly is very difficult when you have less time to learn your opponents range and speed.

 

[Thanos828]

Ken combo in fencing?

 

[4 Aces]

1. Is chris the guy that plays brawl with me in your fencing class?

2. I guess that means that Smash as a game is some what accurate, because as I recall, Marth's sword style discipline is actually fencing. Which is why it never made sence to me why he was swinging the sword around in such vast arcs. And also why they changed his neutral B from an overhead slash in Melee, to a forward moving stab in brawl.

1. Well, there's a Christopher Jagels who fences epee at UGA...yes...if that's the guy who you're referring to. Idk if he plays Brawl or not. I know he's really into Call of Duty...used to be into War Hammer (showed up to Phoenix Games and such before).

2. I don't think so...at least, if Marth is a fencer, well, he'd be doing it wrong...or at least really weirdly. IMO Citizen Snips was exaggerating when he said that it was EXACTLY like Marth Dittos. Idk, maybe Marth fences super old-school style. :/ (Let's face it: modern sport fencing isn't exactly like actual combat; there'd have to be some of changes for it to work IRL)

Marth is definitely not a fencer. Too much slashing to be foil/epee, too much off-target attacks to be sabre, form is entirely wrong, sword is wrong. Only fencer I can think of in a fighting game is Soul Caliber's Rafael, and even then it's glorified to the point of being... wrong.

Also, this affects the mental game... because... uh... as a fencer, it's distracting to me.

But yeah, spacing principles especially transfer in fencing, due to the two-dimensional playing field. Of course, the principles don't mean you can actually do it. Approaching while staying out of your opponents range in fencing is incredibly difficult, and really the mark of a top-level fencer (at least in sabre). Adjusting speed and distance so quickly is very difficult when you have less time to learn your opponents range and speed.

Yeah, I don't think any of us are saying that we'll be ABLE to do it, but it's nice in that you at least kinda already know and understand the concepts of what your coach means.

And what I also find nice that transfers is the competitive mindset: if you suck, go to tournaments --> get ***** --> learn to ****. I mean, this goes for any competitive sport/card game/video game/etc, but I find that for a lot of people (at least at my fencing club), fencing is the first real competitive thing they've ever done, and well...they all seem intimidated, and whenever a tournament/competition is coming up, they shy away because they're afraid of getting "owned," or "destroyed." They don't like to fence people better than them, because they don't want to lose. And when they lose a bout, they go, "Well, I got 3-4 touches on him. I think I'm doing pretty good." Which is pretty much how casual smashers compare themselves to others -- comparing stock counts rather than how well they really did.

(Hope I'm not coming off as overglorifying Melee, cuz ultimately what carries over isn't ALL THAT...I just think it's a nice perk.)

Btw, you referring to sabre in the bold as well? Just wondering, because I fence epee, and...well, we epeeists tend to durdle/slow-roll a lot; plenty of time for us (to the point that it can be kinda...campy). lol

Ken combo in fencing?

*sigh* I wish. Dairing someone into a random pit would be awesome. >.<

 

[Melomaniacal]

And what I also find nice that transfers is the competitive mindset: if you suck, go to tournaments --> get ***** --> learn to ****. I mean, this goes for any competitive sport/card game/video game/etc, but I find that for a lot of people (at least at my fencing club), fencing is the first real competitive thing they've ever done, and well...they all seem intimidated, and whenever a tournament/competition is coming up, they shy away because they're afraid of getting "owned," or "destroyed." They don't like to fence people better than them, because they don't want to lose. And when they lose a bout, they go, "Well, I got 3-4 touches on him. I think I'm doing pretty good." Which is pretty much how casual smashers compare themselves to others -- comparing stock counts rather than how well they really did.

(Hope I'm not coming off as overglorifying Melee, cuz ultimately what carries over isn't ALL THAT...I just think it's a nice perk.)

Btw, you referring to sabre in the bold as well? Just wondering, because I fence epee, and...well, we epeeists tend to durdle/slow-roll a lot; plenty of time for us (to the point that it can be kinda...campy). lol

I completely agree with the tournament mindset. Most other members of my fencing club really shy away from competing because they are afraid to lose and embarrass themselves. If anything at all, Melee taught me that we all sucked at one point, and the best way to get better is to realize you suck, be okay with it, go to competitions where you meet people who don't suck, and learn.

And yeah, I fence sabre. In sabre, most touches take no more than three-five seconds, with anything longer being relatively unusual. When you see a sabreur running his opponent down the strip without getting touched, that's a huge accomplishment. It's very difficult in sabre to get a clean parry without getting touched, and staying just out of your opponents range is almost always the best idea. However, with so many variables of attacks, the range changes constantly, so it's incredibly difficult. I couldn't tell you how many times I've started an aggression only to have my opponent touch me in my preparation, before I had a chance to initiate my attack. Right of way is a pain in the ***, I envy you epeeists.

 

[Tee ay eye]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0RayA0uKt0

here's a better link to the axe vs armada match

 

[Citizen Snips]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0RayA0uKt0

here's a better link to the axe vs armada match

Thanks, I'll update it.

Also, sorry I haven't updated in a few days. I've been replaying Mass Effect and I was really hungry plus I had some work to do and... uh...

Yeah, whatever.

Everything I can say about fencing was said by Melo. Also, no Goggles, Chris wasn't in my class, and I'm not taking it this quarter. It overlapped with Russian and my knee is ****ed up right now so I can't go to the club

 

[Palpi]

My kneeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[ShroudedOne]

inb4dumbskyrimemeshowsupagain

 

[da K.I.D.]

skyrim > ponies

jussayin

 

[4 Aces]

I completely agree with the tournament mindset. Most other members of my fencing club really shy away from competing because they are afraid to lose and embarrass themselves. If anything at all, Melee taught me that we all sucked at one point, and the best way to get better is to realize you suck, be okay with it, go to competitions where you meet people who don't suck, and learn.

And yeah, I fence sabre. In sabre, most touches take no more than three-five seconds, with anything longer being relatively unusual. When you see a sabreur running his opponent down the strip without getting touched, that's a huge accomplishment. It's very difficult in sabre to get a clean parry without getting touched, and staying just out of your opponents range is almost always the best idea. However, with so many variables of attacks, the range changes constantly, so it's incredibly difficult. I couldn't tell you how many times I've started an aggression only to have my opponent touch me in my preparation, before I had a chance to initiate my attack. Right of way is a pain in the ***, I envy you epeeists.

Yeah, it definitely gave me confidence in my failures...if that made any sense. >.> lol

Indeed, all the stuff that happens are way too fast for my untrained eyes. I might get the general idea of what's going on, but I definitely can't catch all of the underlying meaning behind attacks (guess it's somewhat like how smash looks to newer players lol). One time our club entered a newbie tourney, we all decided to fence weapons that we were relatively new at. So I fenced foil, and dear god...right of way is annoying (and beautiful epee touches became off-target so that was a tad irksome).

Everything I can say about fencing was said by Melo. Also, no Goggles, Chris wasn't in my class, and I'm not taking it this quarter. It overlapped with Russian and my knee is ****ed up right now so I can't go to the club

God knows...I REALLY wanted to do it...but I'll show restraint this time.

 

[ShroudedOne]

This is me not taking the bait.

 

[Thanos828]

This is bait not taking the me.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

this is me fairing through the bait.

 

[The Star King]

inb4dumbskyrimemeshowsupagain

I like you.

 

[Citizen Snips]

I like you.

I used to like him, but then I took an arrow in the knee

 

[Citizen Snips]

I'm gonna start working on this again, now that I've stopped being lazy. Updated with a few more patterns, I need advice on stage movement pattern recognition from a top-level player.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

how do you feel about apex, snips?

 

[Citizen Snips]

how do you feel about apex, snips?

The only thing I was upset about on a gameplay level was my performance in pools. I don't care how I place as long as I play in a way that I feel reflects my actual abilities. I got nervous and messed up.

Otherwise, my mental game got a huge boost, and my spacing and movement are a lot better too. Also, I totally combo'd Stric into a falcon punch. You were there. We both saw it.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and **** the way the venue was set up

 

[CK Momentum]

snips thanks so much. this guide is probably the most useful post on smashboards for me. also add me on fb!!

 

[Wolfy!]

I really want to read this... I know it will help me... but it's 3 in the morning and I have to go to bed... later today, perhaps...

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yargh, i thought my ganon got you over that.

that happened to me in teams, but not really in singles.

 

[Palpi]

I am a sheik peach main now

 

[Bl@ckChris]

just play more often and your fox will be fine palpi.