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"Intellectual Property" Law

RDK

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It would be pretty interesting if they did, but it also wouldn't surprise me. For some reason the government thinks it's okay to snoop around in private enterprise, which is the whole point of this case.

Also, if you get a chance Alt, I posted something in another thread about rebelling against the government, and I think it applies to this nicely.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7190787&postcount=25

What do you think?
 

AltF4

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Added to OP:


8) Scarcity The Incredible Copy Machine: A Hypothetical Situation concerning Scarcity

Here I will use a hypothetical situation to illustrate a point. I will say the point succinctly here, and then elaborate on why it is true:

The reduction of scarcity in a good is never a bad thing. To the contrary, it is always a positive thing.

Let's examine this not in terms of information, for a moment, but rather speak of physical objects...

Physical objects are scarce. Part of what makes our entire economy function is that fact that physical objects are scarce. Car manufacturers make and sell cars. They are able to charge a lot of money for cars because they are scarce. You cannot find unused, perfectly functioning cars lying around on the side of the road. Hence, you must go to a car dealer to buy a car.

But now let's imagine a new invention: "The Incredible Copy Machine!". It is a wonder of modern science. All you do is point it at something, and it makes you a perfect copy of it. 100% perfect, in every way indistinguishable from the original. (Let's ignore problems about conservation of mass and energy :))

What this copy machine has done is removed the scarcity from physical objects such as cars! Anyone can have a car now! And not just any car, but the best car they can find to copy. What would be the reaction this invention would receive?

We could then imagine the car manufacturers revolting! "These copy machines are putting us out of business! They are stealing our cars, and not paying us anything! We must make laws to ban these copying machines!"And they are right in one respect: It would in fact put them out of business.

What good is being a manufacturer of cars in a world with a car-copying device? It would be like being an air-manufacturer. Where you take the raw elements of air and manufacture air yourself, and then try to sell it to people. Nobody would buy your manufactured air, because it is not a scarce good.

You would have to be crazy to be a manufacturer of air, and you would have to be crazy to be a manufacturer of cars in world with car copiers.

So should the copying machines be made illegal, so that car manufacturers can keep their jobs? NO. What the copy machines have done is made the car manufacturers obsolete. They are no longer needed. They have been replaced. And while this might be sad to a car manufacturer, it is a very good thing to everyone else.

What happened to manufacturers of slide rules when the calculator came out? They got put out of business. Should we have banned calculators just so that the slide rule manufacturers could keep their jobs? No.

When a group of people become obsolete, it is because something better has come along to replace them. We should not impede this growth. Indeed, it would be a step backward to do so.


So let's go back to our real-world again. We do have a copy machine! It copies information, and it is called your computer. People have died over access to scarce information. Books used to be incredibly valuable objects, as they possessed information, and books were scarce. But this is no longer true. Information needs not be scarce. We can make perfect copies of information freely.

And then, the manufacturers of this information (Book publishers, the RIAA, the MPAA) cry out "These copy machines are putting us out of business! They are stealing our information, and not paying us anything! We must make laws to ban these copying machines!"

Should we? Of course not. But that is exactly what is happening today.

You would have to be crazy to be a manufacturer of air. And you would have to be crazy to be a manufacturer of information today.

Instead, don't be a manufacturer who sells information like it were a physical object that were scarce. Information is not scarce. You have to fundamentally change the way you do business. (In ways that have been outlined in this post too numerous to mention individually again here.)
 

RDK

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That was a good analogy, but there's one spot where I think the comparison ends.

If car manufacturers were put out of business because of the magical copy machine, then we would essentially be stuck with whatever existing model we chose to replicate at the time of their going out of business. Because the actual car manufacturers were forced to quit, there won't be any new cars, which means we wouldn't be able to replicate them. This system only seems to work when not everybody takes part in the piracy.

The same with information. It's not the fact that it's information that's being pirated; it's that the production of the information has to be paid for somehow, and if you pirate the manufacturer out of business, there won't be any growth in that particular industry, unless you know how to manufacture cars (or information) yourself.

That being said, there are other ways products could pay for themselves--like advertising. However I'd rather not have to kill a sh*tload of ads that pop up when I open up a program I just pirated.

See what I'm getting at?
 

AltF4

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Perhaps I should have seen that coming. Remember that my analogy is merely demonstrative. If it helps you understand the point I want to get across, then it has served its purpose. There will be failings in the applicability of the analogy just like any analogy.

But in the case of cars, manufacturing of cars would not completely cease. Just manufacturing as we see it today.

One would not mass produce cars, and then try to sell them individually. Suing everyone who makes a copy. That would be dumb. However, someone could still make plenty of money making cars and offering them for copy. Or altering existing cars, and offering them for copy.

An important thing to keep in mind is that before the first copy has been made, you really do "own" the information in a sense. You can control it. You can sell it. But after that first sale, you no longer have any control. And control is necessary for ownership.

You cannot own a star. You have no mechanism with which to control it. "Owning" a star has no meaning. Control is necessary for ownership.


This "first sale" principle is how lots of Open Source software code writers make their living, and how many (dare I say most) artists and writers make their living. They are hired as a person who performs a service. That service is to create custom code / art / writings. The things that they write are then reproduced and distributed freely. But the service of making new ones comes with a dollar price.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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Well, this brings up another interesting side of the issue outside of business/profits.

My favorite argument in favor of strict copyright goes something like this: "Without these protections, there would be no incentive to create. Art would cease to exist." It certainly generates an LOL reaction from me because art and information have always existed regardless of government protection. So, even if a magical car-copying machine existed and somehow put car manufacturers out of business, that would not be the end of car design. I guarantee you that car design zealots would emerge and do it for the love of it.

However, these new innovations never kill the industry. Only the businesses who refuse to adapt die out. Old car manufacturers would die off as they tried to sue everyone caught using a car-copying device. New businesses learn how to monetize the Internet market. I can easily envision a business being established that focuses on custom models. Poor people would just copy a car that works and be fine with that. People with money could afford to buy a design that matches their personality. Even though a car-copying machine can duplicate any car out there, most people would only be interested in quality of parts (engine, etc.), but not everyone wants a yellow slug bug.

My point is simply that money can be made in tandem with primary content being copied for free. It is being done today; anyone who says it can't be done is blind to reality.
 

AltF4

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Added to the OP:

9) Case study: Dōjinshi This section is a case study of the Japanese art of Dōjinshi. For those who do not know what it is, Dōjinshi is a genre of Japanese Manga. It can best be described in English as "fan fiction". But there are some very interesting aspects to this community.

What they do is take existing Manga, and remix it. For example, someone might take a popular series and think "I didn't really like the way this ended. I'm going to make my own ending for it." And then they do.

Dōjinshi is creativity in its most pure form. The Japanese artists make no false pretenses about originality like we try to do in America. (see Originality section above) People read other works, they are influenced by them, and they improve them. This system of constant change and improvement is at the heart of creativity.

But what is so notable about Dōjinshi is that is is so wide spread! This is not some small sub-culture with only a few amateurs, no. Dōjinshi artists and fans like to attend conventions, the largest of which is Comiket. Comiket is the largest convention in Japan! It brings over a half a million people over the course of three days. Over half a million. All to share, remix, buy, sell, and improve Manga.

Even more incredible yet, is the fact that Dōjinshi itself is, according to Japanese law, illegal! Yet Japanese officials intentionally turn a blind eye to this, as it is such an ingrained part of the Japanese culture.

Now imagine trying to do this in America! If you tried selling a copy of "The Lion King" with a different ending, you'd get sued by Disney faster than a speeding bullet train.

This is clearly impeding the creative process. Copyright law must be made to include remixing and improving of others' works as part of Fair Use.
 

AltF4

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Superb! No, I haven't seen that video. It really is very good. I watched the whole thing just now. It encapsulates exactly the message of this thread. I will add it to the OP. Great find!
 

SkylerOcon

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Now imagine trying to do this in America! If you tried selling a copy of "The Lion King" with a different ending, you'd get sued by Disney faster than a speeding bullet train.
I remember when I first heard about Kimba. I didn't believe it but then after a little bit of research, I was shocked!

Good sectin on Dojinshi, though. Perhaps it should also be included that Dojinshi sales in '07 amounted to 245 Million USD.
 

RDK

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I remember when I first heard about Kimba. I didn't believe it but then after a little bit of research, I was shocked!
That whole Kimba / Simba thing is ridiculously ironic, seeing as how the people from Disney are the biggest copyright wh0res on the face of the earth.

But I guess it's okay for them to steal other people's ideas. After all, they are Disney.
 

RDK

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copyright = greed
But we've already established in the Greed Thread why greed is good. In fact, it makes the world go 'round.

Competition drives the free market. If there's no competition due to everything being free, how will there be any advancement?
 

TheBuzzSaw

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Wha-...? Everything being free would maximize competition. No longer is price an issue. Everyone would be desperate to have you view their own creation. Suddenly, it becomes a competition for people's time/attention.
 

Aesir

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Free Market economics doesn't work, it's to inefficient. Also greed is also the reason why capitalism erodes republics/democracy, clearly if free market economics worked we wouldn't need social justice to protect us.


The BUZZZZ said:
Wha-...? Everything being free would maximize competition. No longer is price an issue. Everyone would be desperate to have you view their own creation. Suddenly, it becomes a competition for people's time/attention.
Copyrights protect the creators from being ripped off, we just take protecting the merchants to a whole new level.

though I could see where your argument would be a good idea, if some makes something you feel you could make better why shouldn't you be able to profit off of that? All these guys who create hacks for the wii that make the system not only better but superior in every way to the original product should be able to profit off of that.
 

Crimson King

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Free Market economics doesn't work, it's to inefficient. Also greed is also the reason why capitalism erodes republics/democracy, clearly if free market economics worked we wouldn't need social justice to protect us.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, NO NO NO. Free market economics always works even when tightened with regulations. The reason? The market will exist no matter what. Want an example? GM. GM failed because they produced horrible cars at high prices that people didn't want, so the government bailed them out, and guess what, they still failed because there was no market for them.

Greed is essential to democracy. Without it, there would be no reason to try and excel other than "for your fellow man." Why should I spend $xxx,xxx on a business that could make me millions if I have no greed or desire for more? When you remove human's natural inclination to want more, you remove any progress or innovation that comes with it.

Wha-...? Everything being free would maximize competition. No longer is price an issue. Everyone would be desperate to have you view their own creation. Suddenly, it becomes a competition for people's time/attention.
How would that make sense to you? Why would ANYONE innovate without having compensation? I can see what you mean, but in the long wrong, people's time and attention won't pay bills.
 

Aesir

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Wrong, wrong, wrong, NO NO NO. Free market economics always works even when tightened with regulations. The reason? The market will exist no matter what. Want an example? GM. GM failed because they produced horrible cars at high prices that people didn't want, so the government bailed them out, and guess what, they still failed because there was no market for them.
Well if they weren't backed by the federal government they wouldn't engage in such risky business. That's the problem we tell small business the free market works and we point to large multinational corporations yet the reason they're so successful is they make VERY risky deals and if they flop they go to Washington for a bailout.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but isn't free market economics little to no regulation? If you're saying regulated markets are a good idea I agree 100% then.

Greed is essential to democracy. Without it, there would be no reason to try and excel other than "for your fellow man." Why should I spend $xxx,xxx on a business that could make me millions if I have no greed or desire for more? When you remove human's natural inclination to want more, you remove any progress or innovation that comes with it.
I'm not saying it's a bad thing I'm saying free market economics (little to no regulation) along with excess greed is a bad thing. The mortgage crisis is a good example of this. employers of these loan agencies were told to make loans work, and their incentive was a bonus. The desire to get those bonuses made these loan officers over look the issue, a very important issue. "these people can't pay their loans, they're risky loans." Then they were sold to the secondary mortgage market where they failed and the rest is common knowledge.
 

Crimson King

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Well if they weren't backed by the federal government they wouldn't engage in such risky business. That's the problem we tell small business the free market works and we point to large multinational corporations yet the reason they're so successful is they make VERY risky deals and if they flop they go to Washington for a bailout.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but isn't free market economics little to no regulation? If you're saying regulated markets are a good idea I agree 100% then.
Not at all what I was saying. Regulations are of the main reasons our economy is tanking. When a business starts to fail, the government quickly runs in and helps them, if that business is "useful," regardless if anyone wants what they are selling. If there were no regulations, small businesses would be forced to operate in a manner where they can show they are better than faceless corporations. With some small businesses, they may charge more, but they also offer a longer plan of service, more value, and a better experience. What I said was that the free market works so well that even with tight regulations, it will still find a way to have an affect.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing I'm saying free market economics (little to no regulation) along with excess greed is a bad thing. The mortgage crisis is a good example of this. employers of these loan agencies were told to make loans work, and their incentive was a bonus. The desire to get those bonuses made these loan officers over look the issue, a very important issue. "these people can't pay their loans, they're risky loans." Then they were sold to the secondary mortgage market where they failed and the rest is common knowledge.
And what happened? They failed, and speaking from personal experience, about 3 months ago was the best time to buy a home. I bought a house that would have gone for a lot more in a stable market. What this stupidity of forcing mortgages did was quickly corrected by the market who wanted houses. People lost homes and money, sure, but the result is that a lot of other people were able to buy a first home that was actually nice, and livable for a few years, for very cheap.
 

Aesir

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Not at all what I was saying. Regulations are of the main reasons our economy is tanking. When a business starts to fail, the government quickly runs in and helps them, if that business is "useful," regardless if anyone wants what they are selling. If there were no regulations, small businesses would be forced to operate in a manner where they can show they are better than faceless corporations. With some small businesses, they may charge more, but they also offer a longer plan of service, more value, and a better experience. What I said was that the free market works so well that even with tight regulations, it will still find a way to have an affect.
No what you see today is bad regulation combined with the deregulation of the 1990's, Reagan started this problem when he deregulated business big time, then after that the Clinton administration accelerated it near the end of his term. Combine that with Bushes huge spending and massive tax cuts the bubble just grew and grew then pop.

You can't blame this on regulation, regulation has been very laxed the past 20 years.

The problem is we had these businesses who were to big to fail, here you have corporations reaping the benefits of tax payer money without any of the down sides. If we're going to allow these companies to be to big to fail and subsidize them (which I'd rather not do) Then they should be brought under the federal government so they can be put under proper over sight other wise you're going to have the same problems emerge again.


And what happened? They failed, and speaking from personal experience, about 3 months ago was the best time to buy a home. I bought a house that would have gone for a lot more in a stable market. What this stupidity of forcing mortgages did was quickly corrected by the market who wanted houses. People lost homes and money, sure, but the result is that a lot of other people were able to buy a first home that was actually nice, and livable for a few years, for very cheap.
See the problem is when people start losing the homes the economy tanks more, this is why we try to keep people in their homes. Giving money to the banks is a bad idea, keep people in their homes and banks will eventually get their money. If one house is lost the value of the whole neighborhood plummets. The last thing you want is for houses to lose value especially if they have mortgages which most do. What happens is when a house loses value if it has a mortgage on it, you still have to pay off those loans. So in the end a house that cost about 150,000 could have a mortgage of about 300,000 no ones gonna buy that.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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How would that make sense to you? Why would ANYONE innovate without having compensation? I can see what you mean, but in the long wrong, people's time and attention won't pay bills.
Who said anything about not having compensation? It's all about selling true scarcities. Saying you can't give away content for free and still profit means TV should have died out ages ago.
 

AltF4

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Hey, hey! Some activity!


Firstly, if you guys want to debate the merits of one economic system over another, or the value of greed, go to another thread. This thread is not for that.

I will respond to what is on-topic, however.

Aesir said:
Copyrights protect the creators from being ripped off, we just take protecting the merchants to a whole new level.
Copyright law today does nothing of the sort. That very reason you cited is exactly why copyright was created hundreds of years ago. And ensuring that goal is still a worthy cause. Nobody wants "plagiarism".

But the laws today do more than this. Much much more.

Do you know that there is a case that is in progress right now over the legality of DVD copying? [link] That's right:

The MPAA is suing right now to make it illegal to copy any DVD at all, for any purpose. Period. No matter what the contents of the DVD are. Suppose you make a home video of your children playing, and burn it to a DVD. If the MPAA wins that case, it will be a federal offense to make a copy of that DVD with your kids playing. Despite the fact that you yourself possess the copyright to that video.

Is this what copyright is about?

What about when Disney sued a Day Care center for copyright infringement for having Mickey Mouse painted on the side of one of their buildings?

No. Copyright law is sick and corrupted. It needs to be reformed.
 

Aesir

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Yeah that's what I was trying to get at, which is why I added the "protecting the merchants to a whole new level" bit.

edit: Sorry about almost hijacking your thread with economic talk. =(
 

TheBuzzSaw

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Unfortunately, I do not foresee copyright law ever being outright reformed just because everyone says so. Smart business people will embrace new business models. Modern era thinkers will learn how to make money all while sidestepping copyright altogether. Creative Commons licenses will become more popular. Open source will gain support.

It'll be a slow, painful process, but someday people will get the picture that you cannot control information.

--- --- ---

http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/12/0643208

Square Enix can burn in hell...
 

AltF4

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Yet more updates! Woo, I love updates!


This particular topic has not come up in this thread yet, but it has elsewhere. The video game Demigod was released not that long ago, with more than it's fair share of problems...

As with all games and media, warez versions of the game appeared almost instantly as the normal version was. Soon, they reported a very high percentage of "pirated" copies as opposed to purchased ones. Well, when the game launched, the game crashed. Their online servers buckled under the weight of far more traffic than they anticipated, and the game experience as a whole suffered. Anti-piracy groups hailed this as an example of what is wrong with piracy, how it hurts everyone else.

That was the story right after the launch.

But just two days ago, the makers of Demigod have come out singing an entirely different tune, in a blog post detailing the entire failure. It is a very frank telling of the launch of the game Demigod.

It details exactly went wrong with the launch, and describes in great detail how it was entirely their fault. The network infrastructure inherent to the game's programming just couldn't scale up to any amount of significant traffic. The game isn't even host-server based. It's a P2P game! That's how bad they messed up their network programming. The game isn't even run on their servers, and it failed.

Anyway, the point here isn't to ridicule Demigod's developers. Quite the opposite in fact, I think it is commendable to see such honesty and transparency from a video game developer. Typically all you see and hear is PR spin, constantly blaming someone else. Demigod's developers had the courage to accept blame themselves, instead of joining the witch hunt against pirates. That alone makes me want to go out and purchase Demigod. (I really loved DotA, which many say Demigod borrows heavily from.)

But more importantly, it should put to rest this case. And further exemplifies a claim: that there is no demonstrable negative effects from software piracy. This very same claim is what Harvard law professor Charles Nesson will be arguing in court while defending Joel Tenenbaum for file sharing. Namely, that there are no demonstrable actual losses in software piracy. In fact, plenty of studies have suggested quite the opposite.
 

RDK

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Sony is notorious for being comprised of a bunch of stone-age dumbf*cks, so, yeah, that article doesn't surprise me in the least.
 

blazedaces

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http://techdirt.com/articles/20090521/0313424957.shtml

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Copyright supporters are hypocrites.
For anyone who's more interested I would highly recommended going to lessig's blog and reading his retort of Helprin’s book Digital Barbarism. Make note that it's about 20 pages long, but IMO worth it as both informative and a good laugh at ultra-pro-copyright bigots.

Helperin is hilarious. First he bashes all bloggers, but cites everything in his book from blogs, wikis, and online articles!

Good find buzzsaw.

-blazed
 

blazedaces

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Wow! You people need to read the following short story by spider robinson called Melancholy Elephants.

It's available to read in the link below, and here's the description that website gives

Copyright is a hot-button topic these days. Does information want to be free…or just reasonably priced? I discussed copyright at some length 25 years ago—a year before the first TCP/IP wide area network in the world went operational—two years before the first Macintosh went on sale!—in the following story. It won the 1983 Hugo Award for Best Short Story, and I hope you’ll still find it illuminating today.
http://www.spiderrobinson.com/melancholyelephants.html

I'm shocked at how incredibly well this story explains the dilemma. I mean, this thing just blew my mind...

-blazed
 

Hive

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such a popular topic ^^ this is pretty interesting to me though because I just recently watched a case at the Superior Court concerning trade secrets. ^^ Its pretty exciting really seeing the thoughts behind the arguments. I do believe that intellectual property is a necessity though in this business climate. And obviously so, without protection for creativity and new products businesses can and will blatantly steal ideas to drive out other businesses, etc... for larger customer bases. Its already a fairly large occurance being illegal.
 

AltF4

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Firstly, there is no such thing as "Intellectual Property", so whatever you "believe" it to be is incoherent.


I actually plan on going through and doing a proper re-edit of the entire first post.

What I don't want to propose is complete copyright abolition. Just sweeping change to it.


Lawrence Lessig stated this very well. Essentially, the law no longer makes sense in terms of copyright. Copies are no longer that which needs to be prevented, regulated, or protected. Copying USED to be an uncommon event only occurring when one very large corporation published books.

But now copies are everywhere. Everytime you do something on your computer, you make a dozens of copies. Have you ever bothered to read what's at the bottom of the Smashboards?

All Rights Reserved. Site Development and Styles Copyright © 2006-2008 Smash World.
So this very website is itself copyrighted, and all rights are reserved. That means you're not allowed to make a copy without explicit permission from the copyright holder.

But in viewing this post right now, you have made not just one, but DOZENS of copies! There is the copy in Video RAM for displaying on the screen, there is a copy in main memory, a copy on hard disk (depending on browser settings, but usually is), a copy cached by your ISP, a copy cached by Google, on and on and on.

Making copies is just how computers and the internet works. We need laws that don't prohibit "copying" but rather laws that prevent plagiarism. Copyright law did make sense in the 20th century, but doesn't make sense in the 21st century.


Nobody wants a publishing company to take the latest book that an Author has written and publish it, without passing any profits off to the author. That would be wrong, and we need laws to prevent companies from doing that. This is the original purpose of copyright, and to this extent, the law still makes sense.

But when you're talking about non-commercial uses, it's a totally different matter.


I hate to "punt" some of these topics, but I've been doing a lot more research, reading, debating, and talking about this subject outside of the Debate Hall. (I've joined the US Pirate Party, for those interested.) There's a lot of new ideas that are worth posting, specific ones more not he monetary front, and historical ones. Hopefully I'll have more added and edited to the OP real soon.
 

Hive

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I'm not sure what you mean by there isn't such thing as intellectual property? Intellectual property is a term to describe many intangible assets. Or are you arguing the syntax of it? Such would be irrelevant because my usage of the term is strictly its common meaning. It has nothing to do with what "i believe" it only has to do with the accepted usage and meaning of the word, which, is the entire point of language.

anyways, i will add more to this later, that show the legal requ. for copyright infringement. You can not just throw out a lawsuit and have a legitimate case as easily as you think, there must be many requ. first, and I think this is causing you're misunderstanding of copyrights and other intangibles.

ps what copyrighted right are you accusing me of interfering with smashboards anyways lol? just because something is copied (which I didn't even do) DOES NOT justify a prima facie case of copyright infringement.
 

RDK

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Wow, I never even thought about digital copies of web site designs and other copyrighted material; that's a good one.

Although it is kind of akin to the "single viewing" mentality Hollywood has towards seeing movies in theaters. Saying you can come in and view this movie but you can't record it using a camera is ludicrous and unnecessarily nit-picky. I expect them to start prosecuting people with incredibly good memory skills in the future; our brains are biological recording devices. *******.
 

Hive

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i did understand what you are saying, (unless the meaning was unclear?) but intellectual property still holds meaning as an umbrella term for those three laws (and more concerns with intangible assets) despite the internal separations.
Also I will elaborate more on this later.... I'm actually in Busniess Law right now, and an accouting major, so I believe I can add good input to this, but I'm a bit too busy to respond right now.
 

AltF4

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i did understand what you are saying, (unless the meaning was unclear?) but intellectual property still holds meaning as an umbrella term for those three laws (and more concerns with intangible assets) despite the internal separations.
No, the term has no rational meaning except to intentionally confuse the subject, and to extend imaginary rights to the holders of these separate exclusive rights that do not exist.

Copyrights, Patents, and Trademarks are very different. Each needs to be reformed in their own particular way. We cannot have a meaningful discussion about them lumped together.

And even if you DID want to come up with a term for those three rights collectively, "Intellectual Property" is not an adequate one. Not only is it physically impossible to "own" intellect in the same manner as a chair, but the law does not recognize any such ownership.

You calling yourself an owner of "Intellectual Property" only serves to bully people (who do not know better) that you "own" something, which you do not.
 

Hive

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No it does not. It is not meant to confuse the subject at all (seriously?), its a term meant to SIMPLIFY our understanding of related fields that are used to describe intangibles arising from intellectual activities. Copyrights, patents, trademarks, trade secrets, etc... are all different fields of course, but this does not stop them from having many common ties, for example they are all formed from intellectual activities, formation of all of them was specifically to prevent unfair competition, there are legal similiarities as well, etc...
And honestly the definition imo is pretty direct.
its not a conspiracy concocted by lawyers to confuse the general public, if that was indeed their wish there are MANY other and more effective ways they could do that. Its just an umbrella term for those related subjects to bind common similarities, much the same way we use "animal" when we could be talking about "giraffe, monkey, fish, squid, etc..."

The point is not to proclaim that you own intellect either, its meant to highlight owning of products derived from intellect and that have commercial value. Of course its physically impossible to own intellectual property then, the entire nature of it is by definition
intangible (i.e. things that do not exist physically or in a tangible form). Still you can own the rights to them. They are completely necessary for effective business operations in the US (from historical need), without it, ironically, it allows the entire opposite point of what you say will happen, it would ALLOW corporations to monopolize the industry, by allowing wanton theft of ideas, logos, etc... by larger corporations which bc of their standing will be able to outperform the inventor/author in his own product in price, number, and quality. The laws are necessary then to promote invention, and originality from being a financial RISK to the inventor.
 

AltF4

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The point is not to proclaim that you own intellect either
Precisely. You cannot own intellect. Thus there can be no "Intellectual Property".

its meant to highlight owning of products derived from intellect and that have commercial value.
No it's not. Plenty of copyrighted things never have a physical product associated with it that can be owned. But patents usually do. This is why it's meaningless (and indeed harmful) to speak about Copyrights, Patents, Trademarks (and to a lesser extent Trade Secrets, though there's not a whole lot for controversy with them) using an umbrella term.

Of course its physically impossible to own intellectual property then, the entire nature of it is by definition intangible (i.e. things that do not exist physically or in a tangible form). Still you can own the rights to them.
Exactly, you "own certain (highly restricted) rights to the piece of intellect" which is FAR different than "owning the piece of intellect". This is not a semantic or trivial difference. This is a piece of propaganda specifically concocted by the RIAA and MPAA to confuse just those two things.

But let's stop talking in such nebulous terms. Let's get right down to what does and does not work about Copyright. Copyright is the most important of the rights discussed here. Patents and Trademarks are of lesser concern.


They are completely necessary for effective business operations in the US (from historical need), without it, ironically, it allows the entire opposite point of what you say will happen, it would ALLOW corporations to monopolize the industry, by allowing wanton theft of ideas, logos, etc... by larger corporations which bc of their standing will be able to outperform the inventor/author in his own product in price, number, and quality. The laws are necessary then to promote invention, and originality from being a financial RISK to the inventor.
Agreed, from a historical perspective. In the 20th century (and 19th to a lesser extent) Copyrights made perfect sense. An author would write a book. That writer would then require legal protection to prevent publishing companies from publishing the book without passing any profits along to the author. Likewise, it prevents other publishers from competing with the one the author selected.

Perfect sense. I am not a "copyright abolitionist" (and if there are any allusions in the OP to that effect, I should edit it.) Wholesale commercial reproduction to the detriment of the author is a bad thing, and should be prevented by law.


But the 21st century is different in two very important ways. Technology has progressed more in the last 20-30 years than in any part of history. The law, however, is lagging behind.

1) Ordinary citizens are now able to produce copies. Copyright in the 20th century did not concern ordinary citizens, but rather only large publishing corporations. The scope of copyright has ballooned in the last 20 years to encompass WAY more than it ever has before, and far more than it was ever meant to concern.

I want copyrights to turn into a "publishing right", which is exactly what the original intent has always been. I think there is a clear distinction between "copying" and "publishing". Copying is something that happens so frequently and transparently that we don't ever notice it. Publishing (at least as I'm choosing to use the term) refers to mass reproduction and sale of the material.

I want the holder of a copyright to have an exclusive right to profit from their idea, for a given (and much shorter than present) duration. The copyright owner, however, should not have the ability to tell every man, woman, and child in the world what they can and cannot do with the material.


There is also a lesson to be learned from history. Let's take the history of radio stations, for example...

When radio stations first came into being, the holders of copyrights were outraged! The radio stations were playing music for everyone to hear, and not paying a dime to the music industry. They were called "pirates"! They were "stealing" music from copyright holders, and profiting off of them without compensation.

They claimed that radio stations would be the death of music. Why would anyone buy a record, if you could hear the music for free anywhere you wanted?!

Well, congress got to hear these problems, and they came up with a good solution. They decided the following.

1) Radio stations are good for everyone. They benefit society. We want radio stations to exist.

2) Copyright holders should have the right to profit from the use of their works.

The main problem was this: There was no way radio stations could license each and every individual song. And not only that, the copyright holders could extort the radio stations into paying any sum of money, effectively shutting down the radio stations.

So they came up with this:

Solution: Make the radio stations pay a flat fee. A single "radio station license", who's fees would go to the music industry.

This way musicians would get paid a reasonable sum (mandated by congress, and updated periodically to reflect inflation) AND radio stations can play music freely.


And today we see the same thing. "Pirate" web sites are offering music without paying royalties to the copyright holders. The music industry cries bloody murder, jsut as they have (the music and movie industry has claimed that EVERY new invention will be the death of them. They said this about the player piano, the VCR, radio stations, and now they say it about web sites.)

I propose that we set up a flat and reasonable "Music File Sharing" license. The website then can operate and benefit society, the music industry gets paid, and the world keeps on turning.


(The other thing that's changed about the 21st century)
2) Technology giveth, and technology taketh away. In the 20th century, technology made it possible to "Broadcast" information. Broadcasting is when one person or entity sends information out to everyone who can hear. The law was adjusted in the 20th century to accommodate this, which is exactly what they should have done.

Culture was transformed into a (as Laurence Lessig says) "Read Only" culture. There were very distinct lines between "Artists" and "consumers". The ordinary citizen was not a producer of culture, they could only consume it in the form of records, movie tickets, etc...

But new technology has changed this dynamic. The line between a "producer" and "consumer" of culture is increasingly blurring to the point where the distinction no longer makes sense. We are transforming back into a "Read-Write" culture. This culture was, after all, the primary means of culture for the greater majority of all of human history.

This Broadcasting, "Read Only" culture was a new invention that occurred in the 20th century. But we again are changing away from this.

Today, even 13 year old children with access to a computer an the internet are able to create culture and distribute it to the entire world. Just think of how many Smash videos are on YouTube created by this very community. But a great number of them are illegal according to today's Copyright law!

Try syncing the intro to your Bowser Combo video to the latest Kanye West song, and watch it get taken down according to the DMCA. This is absurd. Nobody is saying "Boy, I heard the first 10 seconds of that song on YouTube, now I no longer need to purchase Kanye's new album". All this accomplishes is to stifle the creativity of an entire generation of artists, criminalize them, and give them a reason to start ripping you off for real.

You can treat someone like a criminal only so many times before they start to act like one.
 

blazedaces

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Hive, imagine for a second creative aspect of our culture: writing. Now, in writing, when you "quote" something you DON'T have to ask someone else for the permission to do that. But if you use someone else's movie you're supposed to ask for permission. Why?!

Imagine if you had to ask for permission EVERY time you used someone else's writing! It would be ridiculous! Why does this make any sense in film? Or in any form of culture whatsoever?! What about photography? What if you had to ask for the rights to take a picture of everyone's land, or any person? How stupid would that be? What beautiful pictures would we never even glimpse?

Why should copyright of digital media work any differently? What benefit does it give?

-blazed
 

TheBuzzSaw

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One of my smash videos was flagged for copyright violation. XD
 

Oracle

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Yeah that's happening a lot now buzz
Google realized how much money they would save if they let people put music in their videos XD

To Alt: For clarification, the business model you proposed would make something like limewire have to buy a license, right?
 
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