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"Intellectual Property" Law

manhunter098

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RDK, I do not need to demonstrate how a completely free product society would collapse because that point is misleading, there is no such thing as a free product society because people WILL find a way to make money for their products or services. Ive also already addressed the point that musicians make more for their services than their products to begin with, so they do still have incentive to create, spreading knowledge of the existence of their music is going to earn an artist more money through increased concert attendance and increased promotional events than selling more CDs will. The free downloading of artists music then only actually serves to make them more popular, allowing them to make more money, regardless of the fact that digital copies of their music are not being paid for.

Also you were mentioning artists, and though you later refined that point to music artists, the situation is similar for authors, television production, and other forms of creative media that can be digitized and distributed freely.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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Since I know you're being a punk on purpose, I'll give you the short version: when I steal your car, you have no car to use. When I copy your music, I increase my benefit without reducing yours.
 

RDK

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Since I know you're being a punk on purpose, I'll give you the short version: when I steal your car, you have no car to use. When I copy your music, I increase my benefit without reducing yours.
I'm not being a punk; I said I was going Devil's Advocate to make the thread less boring. You already know I share your views on piracy.

Anyway, copying music and making it available to everybody reduces the value of the music, just like if I were able to buy a car and use an infinite copy machine on the car to distribute it to whomever I please. People try to sell their products as something competitors don't have, or as something the consumer needs (or at the very least, wants). If the product is freely distributable, where is the incentive to produce? It's a high risk / low reward system; you're basically giving the shaft to the people providing you with free goods.

And Manhunter, it only takes common sense to see why a 100% free product market would collapse. Let's use a simple example: torrents. Torrents only work because there is someone, out there somewhere producing the product, material, information, etc., that you're stealing. Imagine if everyone leeched and nobody produced.

Piracy only works when there's a fine balance between who's pirating and who's being ripped off. If everyone became lazy and piggy-backed on the accomplishments of others, you would have an effectively dead society.
 

AltF4

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Society would far from collapse. Try looking up "Post Scarcity Economics", or read the wikipedia page on it.

Essentially, a market economy is merely a byproduct of scarcity. IE: There are only so many cars to go around, and a market economy is a mechanism used to distribute the cars in a "fair" way. But when there is no scarcity, an economy is not necessary. Everyone can have everything, there's no need for things like money, stores, jobs, etc...

One could accurately say that one of the ultimate goals of science and engineering is eliminate scarcity from society. In such a world poverty would not exist. No war, no death, no hunger. Everyone in existence could have anything they want.

If you call that "society collapsing"... then I don't know what to say.

Technologies like BitTorrent over the Internet have completed this goal in one area: information. There is no longer scarcity of information, other than what humans arbitrarily impose on each other.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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That would so epic living in a society where everyone competes strictly for fame. Money is so obnoxious. Star Trek society FTW!
 

AltF4

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I just watched this talk by Chris Anderson. FREE: The Future of Radical Price. You may know Chris Anderson best as being the editor of Wired Magazine. It was a really good watch.


So much of this topic winds up boiling down to a very simple (and understandable) concern: How can you make money when what you produce is free? (As in price) This talk supplements much of the material already posted here in that it is very explicit in how an economy based on free things works.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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I think too many businesses fail to account for all the gains involved in digital distribution. By letting fans torrent content, it frees the creators from the burden of distribution. Packaging, shipping, and/or server costs all disappear. Yes, the direct profit margin also disappears, but as has been demonstrated numerous times, that does not prevent any of it from being "profitable".

This is why so-called damages are ludicrous in court. Illegal copying of content from a 3rd party does precisely zero damage to the owners. No box was lifted from a store shelf. No server bandwidth was abused. If anything, the damages should be reduced by those amounts.
 

AltF4

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So, for my Master's Thesis, I'm designing a particular kind of cryptographic Wifi protocol. But things like this are really scary.

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5487069/fulltext.html

Try reading through that and understanding it. Just try. The company claiming that patent already won $200 Million in out of court settlements, and have declared that they're going to keep suing everyone else.

How am I supposed to keep from getting sued? Even if it was a baseless suit, I can't afford court costs.

This sort of thing scares me a lot. And is why I am so adamant about this topic. It affects me and my profession on a daily basis.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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Patents used to be about coming up with something truly innovative and new. Today, patents are all about whoever gets to the patent office first. Patents should be placed on probation and/or canceled if prior art can be cited.
 

blazedaces

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So, for my Master's Thesis, I'm designing a particular kind of cryptographic Wifi protocol. But things like this are really scary.

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5487069/fulltext.html

Try reading through that and understanding it. Just try. The company claiming that patent already won $200 Million in out of court settlements, and have declared that they're going to keep suing everyone else.

How am I supposed to keep from getting sued? Even if it was a baseless suit, I can't afford court costs.

This sort of thing scares me a lot. And is why I am so adamant about this topic. It affects me and my profession on a daily basis.
First of all, very cool and good luck on your thesis.

Secondly, this is ridiculous. They're describing every kind of wireless system, MIMO or otherwise. Kind of grinds my gears...

I wish there was more that I could do... but I honestly feel helpless...

-blazed
 

AltF4

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The MPAA got a spot on 60 minutes a day or two ago, and got to spread some more of their absurd lies.

I love the one where they claim "Piracy is costing Hollywood $6 billion a year at the box office". Referring, of course to a "study" they made in 2005 where they made up numbers, didn't release sources (IE: Made the whole thing up), and didn't even make up rational numbers.

6 Billion dollars?! Do they expect anyone to believe this nonsense?

The entire industry makes about $9 Billion yearly. And has been increasing every year since 2005 in both movies made and total revenue. In fact, every year since 2005 has been record revenue for the movie industry. So where's all this loss they're whining about?
 

TheBuzzSaw

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I was just about to report on that, Alt. Good find.

It is funny when industries report damages that are bigger than the size of the industry itself.
 

aeghrur

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You guys are forgetting one fatal flaw in this, the American people don't always do their research. They can make up as much numbers as they want because honestly, uneducated people will believe it.

:093:
 

thegreatkazoo

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Saw the clip on CBS and whatnot, and my sentiments were the same as the Alt's.

However, there was an interesting take that Steven Soderbergh raised: With the increase of piracy, the movie industry would have less money to take risks and also results in less pay roll for the cast and the crew which always aren't so predominant on the screen.

I will see if I can find any evidence on this just to spice the discussion up a bit...
 

Aesir

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Saw the clip on CBS and whatnot, and my sentiments were the same as the Alt's.

However, there was an interesting take that Steven Soderbergh raised: With the increase of piracy, the movie industry would have less money to take risks and also results in less pay roll for the cast and the crew which always aren't so predominant on the screen.

I will see if I can find any evidence on this just to spice the discussion up a bit...
Which would have some merit if all people who pirated were potential consumers. Which there really is no way of pinpointing that.

I know I've pirated a lot of movies because I simply didn't want to pay the money for a movie that looked bad. Movie tickets are like 12 bucks, 6 bucks during matinee. Sometimes the movie ends up being good and I end up going to see it or buying it.

Anyway moral of the story is, not all piracy is from potential consumers.
 

thegreatkazoo

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True, true.

My point was that does Soderbergh have a point that piracy undermines the cast and/or staffing of a movie or the movie industry in general?

Still looking into it, give me a little more time...
 

AltF4

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It might be something worth mentioning if it were true, lol. But it's not. The movie industry has posted record revenue every year since 2005. (See previous post's links)

God. I really feel like going sentence by sentence in this 60 minutes thing and debunk it all piece by piece. But alas, midterms. :)


EDIT: You can find the 60 minutes video here.

Btw: The Intel commercial that plays before the video is hilarious. I lol'd at it. In a good way. :)

EDIT2: The secret trade agreement ACTA has been leaked. And it's bad. Very bad.
 

Aesir

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It might be something worth mentioning if it were true, lol. But it's not. The movie industry has posted record revenue every year since 2005. (See previous post's links)

God. I really feel like going sentence by sentence in this 60 minutes thing and debunk it all piece by piece. But alas, midterms. :)


EDIT: You can find the 60 minutes video here.

Btw: The Intel commercial that plays before the video is hilarious. I lol'd at it. In a good way. :)

EDIT2: The secret trade agreement ACTA has been leaked. And it's bad. Very bad.
So he's caved on;

FISA
Cap and Trade
Health Care
Net Neutrality

Pragmatism it's a wonderful concept.
 

AltF4

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I don't want to turn this thread ultra "party political", but I agree that this is among the most egregious error that I've seen the president making as of yet.

ACTA (for the uninitiated) is a multinational trade agreement being made and signed behind closed doors. That's right, all the world's big-wigs sit around at a table and decide what laws to pass. No oversight. No transparency. No balances.

And the government uses national security as a "get out of jail free" card to cover it all up. That's right, the government is claiming that they cannot release the details of ACTA's copyright provisions due to national security...
 

blazedaces

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And the government uses national security as a "get out of jail free" card to cover it all up. That's right, the government is claiming that they cannot release the details of ACTA's copyright provisions due to national security...
This is exactly the reason I've hated this whole "national security" dogma that this country now spews out of its nostrils every five seconds. How are the details involved in the ACTA a deterrent to national security?

Anyone ever read marvel comics series "Civil War"? There's a group that's put together of a select group of super heroes and they start to make decisions, behind closed doors about "the good of mankind" ... One of the members leaves because of this, pointing out how wrong it is...

Random, but it relates.

-blazed
 

AltF4

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1) Everyone should totally check out the movie Ink. I just got done watching it, and it's amazing. It's a little independent movie that's gained a huge following through BitTorrent. TorrentFreak has a good writeup on it.

(Ink is on NetFlix now, too. So you can catch it on that, if you want)

2) Lawrence Lessig had a new talk about Copyright and how it pertains to science and education. It was a really good talk. Here is the video:

<embed src="http://blip.tv/play/lG2BregsAg" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="480" height="390" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed>

3) Michael Geist on ACTA:

<embed src="http://blip.tv/play/AYGusTsC" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="480" height="390" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed>
 

RDK

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This is huge.

http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2009...b-set-to-disrupt-music-publishing-industries/

Originally Posted by Wired.com

The late ’70s, when punk exploded and disco imploded, were tumultuous years for the music industry. A time bomb embedded in legislation from that era, the U.S. Copyright Act of 1976, could bring another round of tumult to the business, due to provisions that allow authors or their heirs to terminate copyright grants — or at the very least renegotiate much sweeter deals by threatening to do so.

At a time when record labels and, to a lesser extent, music publishers, find themselves in the midst of an unprecedented contraction, the last thing they need is to start losing valuable copyrights to ’50s, ’60s, ’70s and ’80s music, much of which still sells as well or better than more recently released fare. Nonetheless, the wheels are already in motion.

“The termination that’s going to be coming up is going to be a big problem for the record companies and publishers,” said attorney Greg Eveline of Eveline Davis & Phillips Entertainment Law.

“It’s written into the statute,” said entertainment lawyer Robert Bernstein. “It’s just a matter of time.”

The Copyright Act includes two sets of rules for how this works. If an artist or author sold a copyright before 1978 (Section 304), they or their heirs can take it back 56 years later. If the artist or author sold the copyright during or after 1978 (Section 203), they can terminate that grant after 35 years. Assuming all the proper paperwork gets done in time, record labels could lose sound recording copyrights they bought in 1978 starting in 2013, 1979 in 2014, and so on. For 1953-and-earlier music, grants can already be terminated.

The Eagles plan to file grant termination notices by the end of the year, according to Law.com. “It’s going to happen,” said Eveline. “Just think of what the Eagles are doing when they get back their whole catalog. They don’t need a record company now…. You’ll be able to go to Eaglesband.com (updated) and get all their songs. They’re going to do it; it’s coming up.”

Other artists are also filing notices (there’s a five-year window), according to Bernstein. But in some cases, they’re choosing to leave the copyright grant where it is — albeit with much more favorable terms.

“There are all different kinds of ways people approach it,” said Bernstein. “If they have a publishing company that’s making money for them, and collecting it and paying them well, they may just want a higher royalty. Or if they’re unhappy, they get it back.”

This isn’t just about music. “It’s every type of copyright,” said Bernstein. “It doesn’t distinguish between the types of copyright.”

The only exceptions, he said, are derivative works such as movies based on novels that include certain music in their soundtracks, because Congress decided it was unfair to ask publishers to give those licenses back to artists and authors.

The record labels tried to defuse this bomb in 1999 by sneaking an amendment to the Copyright Act through the House of Representatives that would add sound recordings to the Act’s list of copyrights that were considered “works for hire,” which would make them exceptions to the grant termination clause. According to one source close to the situation, the labels told Congress that the Copyright Act already covered sound recordings as exceptions because albums of music are “compilations” — but that “just to be absolutely clear, [the labels] wanted to put it in so nobody can debate it.”

After musicians, including Carly Simon, reacted negatively, the amendment was withdrawn amid public outcry leaving record labels with precisely two options for fending off notices of termination, neither of which looks promising. The first is to continue to claim that albums are compilations, which doesn’t pass the common-sense test (compilations include songs from different artists), and probably won’t pass legal muster either.

“Everybody kind of snickers at that [strategy],” said Eveline.

The second option is to re-record sound recordings in order to create new sound recording copyrights, which would reset the countdown clock at 35 years for copyright grant termination. Eveline characterized the labels’ conversations with creators going something like, “Okay, you have the old mono masters if you want — but these digital remasters are ours.”

Labels already file new copyrights for remasters. For example, Sony Music filed a new copyright for the remastered version of Ben Folds Five’s Whatever and Ever Amen album, and when Omega Record Group remastered a 1991 Christmas recording, the basis of its new copyright claim was “New Matter: sound recording remixed and remastered to fully utilize the sonic potential of the compact disc medium.”

This might sound familiar, because BlueBeat.com employed similar logic in creating new copyrights to Beatles songs — right before it was sued by EMI and a judge barred them from continuing to sell the songs.

If the labels’ best strategy to avoid losing copyright grants or renegotiating them at an extreme disadvantage is the same one they’re suing other companies for using, they’re in for quite a bumpy — or, rather, an even bumpier — ride.
The music industry as we know it is a dinosaur. The meteor has already hit...we're now just waiting for all of them to die off...
 

AltF4

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Here's a really good article:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...-major-record-labels-are-the-real-pirates.ars

A Canadian lawsuit against the major record labels for pirating music. it is common practice among the record labels to sell music that they don't have rights to. Currently, there is over 300,000 such songs. That they not only pirated, but did so for profit!

Damages range between $50 million and $6 billion. And if the courts use the current filesharing cases as a reference, it will be closer to the $6 billion mark. Since the handful of filersharing cases were not for profit. This, however, is just underhanded evilness.

What they did would be illegal even in my highly liberal view of what copyright should be.
 

RDK

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Here's a really good article:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...-major-record-labels-are-the-real-pirates.ars

A Canadian lawsuit against the major record labels for pirating music. it is common practice among the record labels to sell music that they don't have rights to. Currently, there is over 300,000 such songs. That they not only pirated, but did so for profit!

Damages range between $50 million and $6 billion. And if the courts use the current filesharing cases as a reference, it will be closer to the $6 billion mark. Since the handful of filersharing cases were not for profit. This, however, is just underhanded evilness.

What they did would be illegal even in my highly liberal view of what copyright should be.
What I don't understand is how organizations like the RIAA and MPAA come up with these ridiculously large fine numbers when suing individuals. In the actual court proceedings to they ever explain where they're getting these values from and what they're basing it off of? Obviously we know why they do it, but what is their explanation?
 

TheBuzzSaw

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I love when they assign damages that amount to like 250% of the entire industry combined.
 

AltF4

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There is an answer to that question, RDK. It is based off of the concept of statutory damages.

There are two kinds if "damages" in a legal sense. Actual and statutory. If someone slashes your tires, the "actual" damages you incurred are the cost to replace the tires. There are cases, however, where there are no "actual" damages, but some kind of fine should be awarded.

Think of trespassing on someone's property. There aren't any damages that need to be replaced. Yet, clearly some kind of restitution should be paid. These are statutory damages.

Now, when copyright law was invented, they established statutory damages with the concept of massive publishing companies in mind. Because back then, that was all that existed who could conceivably violate copyright law. So the damages had to be sufficient too deter a massive multi-billion dollar industry from using each others stuff improperly. So numbers like $150,000 per infringement come out of this.

Do these laws make sense in today's environment? Obviously not.
 

Riddle

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It seems that the general consensus is that piracy is blown out of proportion and I have to say that I agree. Record revenues in hollywood an entertainment that hasn't been hurt by the recession nearly as bad as some other industries; I don't see what the big deal is here.

What we really need to do is fix the punishment system not try to stop piracy. Piracy will never end, its too easy to do and its very hard to catch people we just have to accept that I believe until we have some better software-encryption or whatever (not really a computer person lol).

The current punishments are clearly ridiculous and their needs to be some sort of scaling system based off of magnitude of what was stolen and resources of the thief.

Stealing an MP3 should not have the same punishment as copying and selling a hugely popular movie. A large company and a single person should not be punished the same. If we can create a system to reasonably punish people then at least we can take the issue of piracy more seriously.
 

Sucumbio

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I actually think it's kind of sad. People need to be more educated on this issue.
Yeah, it's definitely overreaction. Even if they're trying to start a trend, it's really just shooting themselves in the foot. Besides the key to success isn't in album/cd/mp3 sales or even web hits. Its in venues. Ticket sales. Arguably has always been that.
 
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