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INNsomnia III - May 6th - Memphis, TN (Live Results Online! See Post #1 for details)

SmashterLink

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Sorry for the double post, but Mookie's post wasnt up while I was typing. I will go ahead and vote one way or the other on the Rainbow Cruise debate. I will say that I personally dont like they stage because I dont feel I perform well there. But I will not ban it for that reason alone. I think that the stage should stay on random. I usually mutual ban that stage, but if I see that I can have an advantage there, I will keep it. I have not other reason besides disliking the stage to ban it. My vote is to keep it on.
 

exarch

doot doot doot
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Thanks a bunch Lance.

Rainbow cruise issue_____________________________
Sorry for length here guys

Mookie: I will completely agree that Rainbow cruise does not severly **** anyone. The problem is that the characters it favors already have too many other counterpicks. Lets break down MLG random stages considering two of the most commonly played characters -->see marth peach

*I'm afraid I'm pretty ignorant about many matchups respecting stages I'd like to think about this more, so help here is welcome*
*Also this only considers the fairness of one matchup. If anyone can do the same analysis between any combination of marth peach fox falco sheik I'd love to see it*

Final Destination:
Its an even matchup on this level--maybe slighty in favor of peach. The lack of tipperish platforms, and the fact that it is relatively large give it these qualities.
Battlefield:
Marth's counterpick DUH
Yoshi's Story:
Marth's counterpick Number 2
Fountain of Dreams:
Marth's counterpick Number 3 -- not as bad as the previous two, but its still hard.
Dream Land 64:
Peach's counterpick
Pokemon Stadium:
Even match. Its typically OK in this level, the platforms don't screw you over too much and its pretty big.
Rainbow Cruise:
IMO it Goes to Marth. The stage forces you in the air for a lot of it, and marth wins in the air.

OK so what does that tell you?
Marth vs Peach in MLG Random Rules: 4 stages favor Marth, 2 stages are evenish, 1 stage favors Peach. Throw in Stage Banning and at worst Marth is playing Peach on an even stage. Stage Banning creates a 3/5 chance that its a marth counterpick, and 2/5 chance that its even.

And this implies that TYPICALLY Marth has the advantage during the first match. Therefore he should win, and the counterpicking system would have him win the set most of the time.

What I'm really getting at here is Marth isn't THAT great of a character, but MLG stage rules favor him enough to make him top tier. I'm not saying he isn't top tier, but he wouldn't be as much of a threat if the rules were fair.

How do we fix this specifically? Peach has 1 counterpick in random stages period. So give Math 1 counterpick. IMO yoshi's story is the most fair out of those counterpicks listed for marth, because of lack of glitchy edges, and it also seems to fit in the over grand scheme of making random stages fair. Add into that the two even levels, and include stage banning and that match is going to be played on a fair level.

I could do this for peach fox too and we would find similar results. The random stages favor fox (less than marth though) and the 4 stages YS PKSTM FD DL64, pretty much insure that these two characters will be playing on relatively even playing grounds.

Input is welcome.

PS. Can I get into the SmashBR yet? lol
 

Nite

Smash Champion
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Florida players- If you guys are planning on crashing at Lance's house the night before, there may be a lot of people there. We will all be over there playing smash for quite a while, but when you guys get tired, I live a mile away from him, so you guys are welcome to crash at my house afterwards if you aren't gonna die from cig smoke (parents.)
 

PrinceZane

INNsomniac
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As far as the fest goes... we could do it for a few hours if you guys wanted... However, remember the reason we're not doing it Friday is because I have to work :p

Therefore, if you want a pre-INN-three fest, we'd be looking at Friday night - midnight - 4am'ish... that ok?
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
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@Exarch
I can't help but feel that you are extremely biased against Marth. I don't think that RC favors Marth all that much. Actually, Husband was making a big deal about taking RC off random cause he says Marth is not so good on that stage. Again, you are basing your arguments more on other levels and not RC itself, AS WELL AS keeping it just to Marth. Keep in mind, just about half the stage is about jumping around, and the other half is pretty much straight forward normal fighting. It's not just an aerial match of hopping all the time, that is more like Poke Floats. If you want, you can just avoid the Marth as much as possible till you regain an advantage. If you feel that you are always at a disadvantage regardless; then A: you need to work on getting better against Marth's, or B: pick up another character. If Marth really had such a great advantage we would see more high level marth players.

Overall, Marths and Peaches will do well on almost every stage cause they are good characters in general. As a Falco, I would LOVE to take Marth or Peach on RC, cause I can maneuver better than them, laser them up on the flat areas, and pillar them at the beginning all the while not getting screwed over by a ****ty recovery that is easy to edgeguard.
 

BannedDah

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All florida Peach's have this Hate for Marth....and i dont know why. They're so even.
 

MookieRah

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Wife had this to say about Marth on YS.

The most netural stage, blatantly, is Yoshi's Story. I don't know why people say it's good for Marth, when in actuality it's not. A Marth needs room to work. Ok I'm giving away a big secret but I think it's hilarious when Marth's counter-pick me to Story, because I virtually never lose there. Watch my set vs Ken, it was the easiest of my five matches. They aren't on tape but I've beaten Eddie, Eduardo, Husband, Neo, Azen, Goldwing etc. on Story.
Wife, a Peach player, LOVES Yoshi's Story, against MARTH'S no less. HE BEAT KEN ON THIS STAGE!!!? Why is this? I don't know exactly. Ask him, talk to him, find out, and use it to your advantage.
 

BannedDah

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Marth and Peach is the most even match up in this game. Oh and Zane. Put me,Doodah on the list.
 

exarch

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Right. and Vidjo beat husband on Battlefield.

Soooooo battlefield and yoshi's story are obviously peach counterpicks now.
It is only one person's opinion, and until other peach's start beating marth on yoshi's story, well we're gonna have to wait for it.

I've beat several marths on yoshi's story too. Doesn't suddenly make it a fair level. I've beaten a fox or two on Onett. doesn't means its suddenly an even fight on that stage.

yoshi's story is good for marth because he kills easier and peach's recovery advantage is nullified.

Zane: yeah you can probably assume i'm gonna be there. Derf too, although idk about Doodah or maverick
 

MookieRah

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@Everyone, but mainly exarch
For starters, I am just gonna speak my mind on this issue. I played Mewtwo in tournaments for over a year. I had my fair share of crap, but I never made a crusade about banning stages and whatnot. Even though I was tremendously disadvantged, I was able to overcome a lot of crap I ran into. BELIEVE ME, that **** was frustrating, but I worked it out. As of late all that frustration culminated to me finally switching; however, during my prime, I didn't really feel as if a character or a stage advantage was really holding me back all that much, it was the fact that my opponent was simply better.

This is why I don't understand it when people complain about every little thing in a matchup. Yes, I can see how you wouldn't like to play a Marth on YS with Peach. HOWEVER, that Marth doesn't want to play your Peach on DL64. BF, well the stage allows for Peach to survive decently, a lot better than YS does. It's kinda like a medium between the two, with a gimpy ledge that bums everyone out. If anything, your beef is with having one extra stage on random that goes towards Marth, not RC.

You are prolly thinking, "Hey mookie, you are contradicting yourself. If you don't care about people complaining then why did you make a campaign to save RC?"

Valid question. Here is the answer. I went through the trouble of learning to play on RC, and I like the stage a good bit. I have always complained about it in the past and I too have tried to convince people to ban it. Now, after really giving it a chance and learning to use it as an advantage, people want to strip it away for the SAME reasons they didn't let me ban it for. That ain't right. If I couldn't ban it out of bias before, we shouldn't ban it out of bias now. I have matured since then and realized that by just not liking a stage is no where near validation for banning. So far the only thing about RC that are valid reasons to ban it from neutrality is that it's not great for Peach, and some Falco's think it's good for them. If you ban it for that then you should also ban DL64, for helping people with good recoveries, or YS for helping people with good, quick, kill moves.

Anyways, back to what I was talking about earlier; I never said that just because other Peaches have learned the stage that they were Peach counterpicks. I was just saying that other people have figured out ways to make it not as big of a deal. Why not talk to some of the players that have dealt with it. All it takes is for one person to do it consistently to show that it can be done, and the fact that Wife beat Ken in a non-fluke tournament match means that at the highest level Peach can deal with Marth on Yoshi's Story.
 

exarch

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I was under the impression that neutral stages were set as neutral because matchups were relatively even on those levels.

Sorry guys my bad.

(no offense mookie, you make a good point)

EDIT: i got more to say
The reasoning behind having less levels on random is to make your 1 stage ban go further.

Yoshi's story is good for those with bad recoveries and quick kill moves
DL64 is good for those with good recoveries
FD is decently fair
Pkstm is pretty fair too.

These 4 stages work in a way that their is usually an even match on at least two of them, given any character matchup. Typically a character does well vs another on one and only one of those stages. That stage will be banned, leaving 2 stages that are relatively even.

Throw in too many more and suddenly characters have a good chance of being counterpicked on neutral stages. These stages are different enough to give characters changes in how they do on matchups. Neutral stages should be different.

**now i'm really thinking... i've got to have time before i can actually say what this means
 

MookieRah

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LOL, which goes back to my other argument that we should all just start on Poke Stadium XD.

That would be ideal, IMO.
 

exarch

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Or maybe... we should establish different neutral levels according to each matchup? thats something for the backroom i think.

And yeah, starting on pkstm sounds like a good idea to me.

But thats far to Avantguarde for now. so i guess just let rainbow cruise lie
 

Lance87

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SmashterLink said:
Hail yeah Lance!!!! I didnt know you were planning on housing some FL players. Too freakin awesome. You know we will be over there for some smashing proly like all day the day before the tournament. So cool that everyone is taking interest in this tournament. We need to get the crew together somewhere soon to get some heavy training in before INN3.

And if there is a Smash Fest the friday before, we will proly be there. I love the late night Pizza Inn fests. Lots of smashing and mmmmm...that pizza. YAY for INNsomnia 3!!!!
I didn't know i was housing them either, it was sort of a split second, ah wtf kinda decision. Man, my house is gonna be packed with smashers!


Exarch, derf, and Mankosuki:

can you guys tell me who all is coming with who, best guess is good enough for me.
 

Mankosuki

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@Lance: My group would probably be about 5 people.

Could you go ahead and PM me your address so I can look it up on mapquest? Also, would Saturday night be available as well or just Friday?

(we don't mind splitting up to crash at your friend's if needed)
 

chamberlin

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So, does anyone actually enjoy playing on RC? It looks like everyone wants to keep it just 'cause there's not enough reason to move it out of neutrality or they've learned to use the stage to their advantage and don't want to lose that advantage. If almost everyone finds the stage annoying, I think that's enough reason to ban it. That's just my opinion though. *waits for Mookie's inevitable rebuttle*
 

BannedDah

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I consider RC kinda like a cross between Fountain of Dreams and PokeStadium. The platforms move around and the terrain is constantly changing. So yea if FoDs is a random stage, then yea, RC should be a nuetral too.
 

MookieRah

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Once I learned how to use RC to my advantage, it became a lot more fun. It's only annoying if you never give it a chance, or perhaps play Peach. Most peepz just think "oh, it's gay" and only encounter it at tournaments. But if you wanna be good you need to play on every legal stage and find ways with your characters to turn the tide, or pick up a new one if he doesn't cut it.
 

SmashterLink

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@Lance: Awesome!!! There is going to be so much smashing at your house the day before INN3. I am gonna try and get a tv before then so we can have a bunch of setups at your house. Mookie, if you want, I can see about housing you and Will. I'll talk to you over aim about it. We only live like a few minutes from Lance's and Nitemare's houses. We are all in the general area of each other. I'll just talk to you later on aim about it.
 

Nite

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Yea, more than likely, Lance's house is going to be packed when everybody shows up, but I am sure if you guys don't mind sleeping on the floor, then there should be room for bunches. If not then we can get some people over at my house. And SmashterLink/Mario'sCapeabilities house could be an option as well. Like SmashterLink said, we all live in the same general area, so it shouldn't be hard if people wanted to spread out a little.

Also- If you guys are going to be staying, then it might be a good idea to bring a sleeping bag or something. Anything would work really, like your own cover and pillow.
 

CO

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Hey Lance and Nitemare, if you two dont have as many people as you think would you mind if I just stayed at your house? Less moving plus we could stay later. If not no big deal Ill just return home.

Oh Zane I remember you saying you wanted a banner with the date on the next tourney when you finalized a date. Well I updated the old one I made. Just put the "]" on the end. Here:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/CO_Brad/INN3Banner.jpg[/IMG

[IMG]http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/CO_Brad/INN3Banner.jpg
 

Nite

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Brad- Yea man, you are always welcome at my house.

We will be playing Lance's for a while, whoever gets tired and if there isn't room can come to my house.
 

Aidite

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Seriously this is going to be awesome. If your coming make sure Zane has your name on the list. The 2 of us are trying to figure how much food/drink to bring to holiday inn. Would be kind of bad if we only brought enough for 30 and 50 people showed up. Althought 50 people would cause me to have an orgasm, I don't think that is going to feed everybody...

@Zane yah I turned in my holiday request form so I can get off on the 6th. No word back as of yet. We should do a pre-smash party. Just for fun and everything. In the true Innsomnia spirt it would have to be from midnight to 4am. I mean thats what the Inn is known for.
 

PrinceZane

INNsomniac
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Without even previewing the image I'm already changing it. Thanks Brad. I <3 Yoo!

Updated the pre-reg with Exderfah


Lets start a new debate since I already dubbed RC legal *coughs*

I haven't seen anyone post about crew battles, what's the opinion on this? Yes or No? State, person picked, or random picked?

Personally, I think random crew battle would be interesting. Everyone that wants in goes into a pot and random draw names to build teams, but then again, I know how much states like getting their R-E-S-P-E-C-T

Toss me some ideas...
 

Mankosuki

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I'd love to do Crews since there's a tourney in LA the same weekend we'd be skipping for INN3 which was going to have crew battles. I'd say to use your own crews and only have random select for people who don't have a crew and need one.

Edit: alright, as of now I'm confirmed as comming. So go ahead and add the following names to the preregistered list:

1. Mankosuki
2. Boom Stick
3. John
4. Steve
5. RAM
6. ROOK

@Lance: if 6 is too much, we'll split up and crash at other people's houses too. :ohwell:
 

MookieRah

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Random crews would work if you had roughly equal people in the pot. I would be big into it, and you can make it random while still adjusting teams to not have one overpowered.

I am up for state crews as well.
 

Thief

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I'd love some crew battles, but not state, because my state sucks. Unless I can be a Mississippian for a day or something, haha.
 

PrinceZane

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McCloud said:
If this gets really big then we won't be able to do round robin I think...

I think way more than 50 people'll show at this..
so are you coming or not? You're putting feedback into how things are working, but to my last knowledge you weren't coming? Just trying to get ahold of things...

Updating pre-reg list, I now <3 FL :) Can't wait to meet all you guys
 

Aidite

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I think a random crew battle would be awesome. Althought anything smash related would be fun. Pretty much i gree with mookie
 

PrinceZane

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Oh, are any of you FL people able to bring setups or anything? Currently we only have 3 1/2 on the pre-reg list and I just have this "strange gut feeling" (and no it's not constipation) that we'll need more than that :p
 

Mankosuki

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I'm not sure what transportation we'll be using (one of my crew members wants to get a van from his sister's friend from church... :ohwell:) but I'm pretty sure we could bring a TV/Cube/VCR. Possibly even a 2nd setup if there's room.
 

PrinceZane

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Awesome, thanks man. Let me know when you get a number, I'll put you down as one for now, just let me know if it increases...

That was the next thing I was going to address. We've YET to get any INNsomnia action recoreded and posted. I'd like INN III to break that ugly tradition.

Also, if anyone can take minitapes and put them online, i've got some INN II footage, but I don't have the recorder that was used to make the tape (a friend did it and left me the tape instead of a cd like I asked, lol) or a video card that has AV plugins (the one that does is down with busted motherboard :()
 
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