Infinites: Why, exactly, are they allowed?

[Xyro77]

I am pretty much the ONLY known tournament host that has banned(or reduced) all infinites.

My city of Houston,Tx supports me and we have some of the best players in our city. So the banning has no effect on our abilities(which has been a reason by some people to NOT ban infinites)

I also MAIN samus. I have no 2ndary. I also place better than any samus in the entire USA. I know my character quite well, i know what she can and i know what she cant do.

There is a person who posted above mine who says "just deal with it". Samus is one of the 5 characters that DDD can INFINITE CG with out even walking. There is no way to DEAL with it. Saying "dont get grabed" is just like saying "go swim in lava". It aint gonna happen. So i should have to lose to some one who i would most likely beat but yet i cant because he ICG me? Tell me, how is this not broke?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

@Xyro77
have you only placed well in tournaments where there is no CG? have you placed well in any tournaments where the DDD CG is not banned? very bold claiming to be one of the best samus in the USA.

 

[Veggi]

D.I.C.K is impossible to get around.
not to mention the CG being "Bad" is subjective.
For the DDD player, it's very good.

You can get around the D.I.C.K., just stay in first the whole match. Letting someone take 1st in a tourney without doing anything is good too, for the person winning the tourney.

 

[Zankoku]

Veggi, if you have an easy time grabbing everyone, then it suddenly makes sense why you would consider Captain Falcon as much of a threat as Snake.

 

[Veggi]

Veggi, if you have an easy time grabbing everyone, then it suddenly makes sense why you would consider Captain Falcon as much of a threat as Snake.

It's not that the people I play are idiots, taking DK for example the only move that's easier to land than a grab is ftilt and bair. Although I'm not sure of this, I think Dedede has a better grab range than DK.

I can also punish a Snake player worse with one grab than I can a CF. I'm not sure what your getting at with this. Are you saying that if I think getting a grab is easy, I don't know what I'm talking about?

 

[Zankoku]

I'm saying if getting grabs is easy for you, there is a sizable gap in skill, if not a lack of skill, in your opponents, because the concept of spacing does still exist in Brawl.

 

[Veggi]

I'm saying if getting grabs is easy for you, there is a sizable gap in skill, if not a lack of skill, in your opponents, because the concept of spacing does still exist in Brawl.

Spacing doesn't only apply to grabs. Going by what you said, if every move isn't hard to land the people I'm playing are bad? Moves will land all the time in every skill level, grabbing is one of the easiest.

 

[Zankoku]

By that reasoning Ice Climbers players should be winning every tournament hands down because they get an entire stock on any character in the roster off of landing a single grab, which is one of the easiest things to land in the game.

 

[Veggi]

By that reasoning Ice Climbers players should be winning every tournament hands down because they get an entire stock on any character in the roster off of landing a single grab, which is one of the easiest things to land in the game.

Having Nana dissynced+having Nana in the right position+having someone in a grab=stock

Having those conditions is much harder than landing a singular grab, which Dedede can do much easier due to his grab range.

 

[Zankoku]

It's easy enough to desync Nana off of the dthrow > fair > grab combo a few times, and then just work from there. But yeah, I suppose it's pretty easy to beat people who you can just shield and press A at the right time against.

 

[CStrife187]

I know this was said a long time ago, but there are a few things that have been said in this thread that bother me.

"A lot of people only play one character" So? Why do I care? I play two characters. They both have bad matchups. I deal with it and try to metagame my opponent by picking the counter to the character I'm expecting them to pick. That's why counterpicking exists. With the low-low tech barrier on most characters in brawl, picking up a new character for tournaments is perfectly feasible, and very smart.

"the only move that's easier to land than a grab is ftilt bair" have you tried dtilt? it also out-ranges most grabs.

"If every move isn't hard to land the people I'm playing are bad?" If you have an easy time hitting your opponent in brawl, then you aren't spacing well yet. At high level play, you have to work for a hit. That's part of the reason pros tend to like melee is because although you still have to work for a hit, the hits actually count for something.

"Moves land all the time at any level of play, grabs are one of the easiest" once you get past a certain level, grabs are actually pretty hard to get because your opponent has to mess up to leave themselves open. Although grabs come out quickly, any attack from your opponent will stuff your grab attempt. If you can't think of an attack to use, try jabbing. Jabs are fast and they'll beat grabs just like anything else.

The iceclimbers grab is a way bigger deal in the long run, because they affect 34/35 characters. DDD affects 5/35, and even then it doesn't have nearly the implications of the IC grab because you have to pummel in 3/5 of those grabs.

@TGM, DDD can't infinite you until well over 100% if you wiggle out of grabs quickly. Try rotating the control stick and pressing many buttons quickly and see what happens. I've seen multiple videos and had multiple real life instances of breaking out of grabs in 1 pummel at 100%.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Just read this thread.

Patsie's logic > Yuna's logic.

But, my opinion is that you can't really ban things, cuz where do you draw the line. What a crappy game. Thanks ebay for $45 bucks for this piece of crap game.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Pastie hasn't even posted her in how long? lol he and Yuna stopped a long time ago. and hey at least you didn't reserve $50 for the game 4 months before the first release date. >__> it is pretty though.

 

[Veggi]

I know this was said a long time ago, but there are a few things that have been said in this thread that bother me.

"A lot of people only play one character" So? Why do I care? I play two characters. They both have bad matchups. I deal with it and try to metagame my opponent by picking the counter to the character I'm expecting them to pick. That's why counterpicking exists. With the low-low tech barrier on most characters in brawl, picking up a new character for tournaments is perfectly feasible, and very smart.

"the only move that's easier to land than a grab is ftilt bair" have you tried dtilt? it also out-ranges most grabs.

"If every move isn't hard to land the people I'm playing are bad?" If you have an easy time hitting your opponent in brawl, then you aren't spacing well yet. At high level play, you have to work for a hit. That's part of the reason pros tend to like melee is because although you still have to work for a hit, the hits actually count for something.

"Moves land all the time at any level of play, grabs are one of the easiest" once you get past a certain level, grabs are actually pretty hard to get because your opponent has to mess up to leave themselves open. Although grabs come out quickly, any attack from your opponent will stuff your grab attempt. If you can't think of an attack to use, try jabbing. Jabs are fast and they'll beat grabs just like anything else.

The iceclimbers grab is a way bigger deal in the long run, because they affect 34/35 characters. DDD affects 5/35, and even then it doesn't have nearly the implications of the IC grab because you have to pummel in 3/5 of those grabs.

@TGM, DDD can't infinite you until well over 100% if you wiggle out of grabs quickly. Try rotating the control stick and pressing many buttons quickly and see what happens. I've seen multiple videos and had multiple real life instances of breaking out of grabs in 1 pummel at 100%.

I've gone over part of this. It's not like someone has a bad match-up and they can pick up a character that's just "good" against them and win. As much as people try to stretch that characters are easy to just pick up and play in Brawl. You can't pick up a character and just expect to beat a Dedede main just because you picked up G&W.

Have you tried approaching with down tilt? Easier to grab.

How would you know that?
(off-subject)
How would moves meaning more make a game better? If all characters have to work the same amount to make a move work then it doesn't matter.

I've played lots of people from lots of different skill levels. My friend's little cousin I didn't bother grabbing because he wasn't skilled enough to shield attacks. The counter to shields is grabs and better players will shield moves all the time. I've played people much better than me and it always stayed true that grabs were one of the easiest to get in. If it helps, I use grabs in most situations where jabs would be useful, because jabs can be shielded and japping me out of a grab isn't reliable. Also, I've beaten attacks and just taken the damage from them while still getting the grab. Admittedly I'm not sure what the exact timing is for it is.

If you have to counter-pick with a character you don't don't know to use, how would picking a counter-pick for IC's be any different?

Just read this thread.

Patsie's logic > Yuna's logic.

But, my opinion is that you can't really ban things, cuz where do you draw the line. What a crappy game. Thanks ebay for $45 bucks for this piece of crap game.

Ban it at the re-grab.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

@ Veggi
its not that hard to pick up and learn another character, especially good ones like G&W b/c they already have things that make them great anyway. you can pick up G&W in a week or so b/c hes already an amazing character, while someone like Peach on the other hand takes longer. also the only counter pick for the IC's is the IC since you can't CG 2 people. other than that you just have to continue as w/e character you already are.

You don't always counter shielding with grabs. thats the first instinct, but some characters have other options like Ganons side b, marths Shield breaker, Pits sideb. also if a move pushes the person too far back they can't sheild grab you.

the trade off with grabbing and attacking is usually given to controller port advantage, but if your just out of reach your jab, or other attack ,can thwart grabbing attemps.

 

[Yuna]

An unbalanced game is bad for competitive play and those who say otherwise are stupid.

Let's ban Top and High Tier and possibly a large chunk of Mid. Then Low and Bottom will stand a good chance of winning.

Pure BS

"Perceived" weaknesses? I'm sorry, have you played Brawl? These aren't just perceived weaknesses. These are glaring and obvious ones,

And no more MTG references. Now decide if those characters that are being grabbed would be useful if infinites were not around. If you can infinite C. Falcon it doesn't matter because he sucks. Now. Does those other characters suck to the point of not being played WITHOUT chaingrab? Would the game be a better game with or without it? (Remember that banning something just because it's better is also wrong)

That's the most BS reason to ban things. Only ban them if they screw over viable characters. Who cares if they screw over one or all Low Tiers as long as they don't screw over Mids and up!

 

[Yuna]

I am pretty much the ONLY known tournament host that has banned(or reduced) all infinites.

My city of Houston,Tx supports me and we have some of the best players in our city. So the banning has no effect on our abilities(which has been a reason by some people to NOT ban infinites)

I also MAIN samus. I have no 2ndary. I also place better than any samus in the entire USA. I know my character quite well, i know what she can and i know what she cant do.

There is a person who posted above mine who says "just deal with it". Samus is one of the 5 characters that DDD can INFINITE CG with out even walking. There is no way to DEAL with it. Saying "dont get grabed" is just like saying "go swim in lava". It aint gonna happen. So i should have to lose to some one who i would most likely beat but yet i cant because he ICG me? Tell me, how is this not broke?

So you've been able to place really well in tournaments... because DDD's infinite is banned in those (is he banned from regrabbing at all?).

Here's how to deal with it: Play Samus on a really, really high level where you don't get grabbed much at all orplay as someone else. CF gets ***** by a lot of the cast. Let's ban everyone except CF, Low and Bottom.

 

[Veggi]

@ Veggi
its not that hard to pick up and learn another character, especially good ones like G&W b/c they already have things that make them great anyway. you can pick up G&W in a week or so b/c hes already an amazing character, while someone like Peach on the other hand takes longer. also the only counter pick for the IC's is the IC since you can't CG 2 people. other than that you just have to continue as w/e character you already are.

You don't always counter shielding with grabs. thats the first instinct, but some characters have other options like Ganons side b, marths Shield breaker, Pits sideb. also if a move pushes the person too far back they can't sheild grab you.

the trade off with grabbing and attacking is usually given to controller port advantage, but if your just out of reach your jab, or other attack ,can thwart grabbing attemps.

As much as I'd like to believe that I could pick up Mr. G&W in a week and be able to beat tourney go'ers that play Dedede it's just false. There are many people that actually rank Dedede above G&W. How could you counter-pick someone with the same character they're using? No offense, but if someone shields your attack, you arn't going to get off one of those attacks afterwards. It's not going to work. Once again, you can't depend on out ranging someone's grab with a jab, because assuming that your within grabbing range that wouldn't make any sense. Actually, I'm not even sure if you can out range Dedede's grab with one of the 5 infinite victims.

About the shield knock-back bit. I approach with bair because I know that if I space it correctly, it's can't be shield grabbed for most characters, maybe all characters, not sure. Ftilt I know can be shield-grabbed by Dedede, that move rivals the range of Snake's ftilt.

 

[CStrife187]

*facepalm*

@veggi, you don't pick up a character while you're in the tournament. You pick them up a couple months in advance because you know your character has a weekness you need to cover. Seriously, did you think I was telling you to just pick G&W out of nowhere in the middle of a tournament?

Good people aren't going to only play one character unless that character is Metaknight, Snake, or maybe G&W because any other character has matchups so hard that it's easier to pick up a new character than learn those matchups. That's the way brawl is right now. If you pick up G&W, you will probably be able to beat DDDs a whole lot sooner than if you "stick to your main" and use DK.

Also, I don't use DK as a main, but when I play him I don't use d-tilt as an approach, I use it for sheild pressure and spacing. You don't always have to go all the way to your opponent when you're approaching. In fact, unless you know exactly how your opponent is going to react to what you're doing it's pretty stupid to commit to anything that you don't consider safe unless you're pulling some hardcore mindgames.

and I'm sorry, but you're little cousin is not a viable example in any way when on a competitive gaming forum. I can beat my friend Cam in any matchup in this game if I'm playing to win with or without items, but I don't use that as an example to say that CF can beat G&W and that items should be in in tournaments.

 

[Veggi]

*facepalm*

@veggi, you don't pick up a character while you're in the tournament. You pick them up a couple months in advance because you know your character has a weekness you need to cover. Seriously, did you think I was telling you to just pick G&W out of nowhere in the middle of a tournament?

Good people aren't going to only play one character unless that character is Metaknight, Snake, or maybe G&W because any other character has matchups so hard that it's easier to pick up a new character than learn those matchups. That's the way brawl is right now. If you pick up G&W, you will probably be able to beat DDDs a whole lot sooner than if you "stick to your main" and use DK.

and I'm sorry, but you're little cousin is not a viable example in any way when on a competitive gaming forum. I can beat my friend Cam in any matchup in this game if I'm playing to win with or without items, but I don't use that as an example to say that CF can beat G&W and that items should be in in tournaments.

No offense, it might be partly my fault, but this was based off a misinterpretation of what I said.

Also, I don't use DK as a main, but when I play him I don't use d-tilt as an approach, I use it for sheild pressure and spacing. You don't always have to go all the way to your opponent when you're approaching. In fact, unless you know exactly how your opponent is going to react to what you're doing it's pretty stupid to commit to anything that you don't consider safe unless you're pulling some hardcore mindgames.

The only way I use down tilt is if someone is veeery close to me and is at very low percents. dtilt>dtilt>dtilt>dtilt>dtilt>downb=WIN

Everything else, I'd rather use something different.

Let's ban Top and High Tier and possibly a large chunk of Mid. Then Low and Bottom will stand a good chance of winning.

This has been gone over.

That's the most BS reason to ban things. Only ban them if they screw over viable characters. Who cares if they screw over one or all Low Tiers as long as they don't screw over Mids and up!

Leave name-calling out of this. If it were complete BS people would be able to tell by the reasoning you presented against it, so far most if not all replies have had reasoning behind them.

Depending on what you ban, more characters still retain the qualities they have, but more and more characters start to be worth more in tourneys and the ones that currently dominate would start to balance out, making more characters actually tourney viable. Also, why do you have that opinion as your last sentance? It doesn't seem to apply with anything said here.

Here's how to deal with it: Play Samus on a really, really high level where you don't get grabbed much at all orplay as someone else. CF gets ***** by a lot of the cast. Let's ban everyone except CF, Low and Bottom.

This has been gone over too.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

the IC's are only counterpicked by themself cause the CG does not work on 2 people at a time only 1.

 

[Veggi]

the IC's are only counterpicked by themself cause the CG does not work on 2 people at a time only 1.

It would turn into a neutral match-up.

Looking back on the rest of the thread, Patsie did a whole lot better than I did with this.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

thats just it, you can only neutralize the match agains the IC with the IC. either that or follow the 2 rules of "don't get grabbed" "kill Nana". sure it doesn't sound like a counter pick but its the only other option to not suffer the CG.

i believe pastie also just gave up at some point or just conceded defeat. CG and infinites don't kill enough characters, both viable and unviable, to warrant a ban. and cause theres ways around it for all those affected. Samus has ranged options, bomb, and Zair. Mario fireball, cape. DK Bair, DownB. Luigi fireball, tornado, Bair. bowser eh flamethrower? im just throwing stuff out there as ways to avoid CG from DDD and anyone else.

 

[RDK]

Leave name-calling out of this. If it were complete BS people would be able to tell by the reasoning you presented against it, so far most if not all replies have had reasoning behind them.

Depending on what you ban, more characters still retain the qualities they have, but more and more characters start to be worth more in tourneys and the ones that currently dominate would start to balance out, making more characters actually tourney viable. Also, why do you have that opinion as your last sentance? It doesn't seem to apply with anything said here.

Just banning the IC infinite only makes the IC's worse and not worth playing as much. Why are you so concerned about the IC's being imbalanced when that's the nature of the whole game? There are a million things in Brawl that are more imbalanced than the IC infinite.

 

[General_Norris]

Let's ban Top and High Tier and possibly a large chunk of Mid. Then Low and Bottom will stand a good chance of winning.

Learn to read first. I , for example say "Would you like to play Smash if you only had one character avalible? I doubt so" which is the same as "If there are no small unbalances the game would suck". There's a huge difference between boring, fair and unbalanced.

"Perceived" weaknesses? I'm sorry, have you played Brawl? These aren't just perceived weaknesses. These are glaring and obvious ones,

Learn to read again. Mike Flores says that people were trying to defeat Trix (broken one) because it had some weakness like being vulnerable to some cards but Trix was still so frigging powerful that even if you made an anti-Trix deck you still wouldn't be able to beat Trix.
Brawl translation. People were trying to beat chaingrab (the broken one) because they could try to kill Nana but CG was so easy to pull off and killing Nana not so easy that you couldn't beat ICs.

The perceived weakness is killing Nana not the ICs chaingrabbing.

That's the most BS reason to ban things. Only ban them if they screw over viable characters. Who cares if they screw over one or all Low Tiers as long as they don't screw over Mids and up!

Well then how do you decide what's ban worthy? Are you going to ban Metaknight just because C. Falcon will never defeat him?

 

[Veggi]

thats just it, you can only neutralize the match agains the IC with the IC. either that or follow the 2 rules of "don't get grabbed" "kill Nana". sure it doesn't sound like a counter pick but its the only other option to not suffer the CG.

i believe pastie also just gave up at some point or just conceded defeat. CG and infinites don't kill enough characters, both viable and unviable, to warrant a ban. and cause theres ways around it for all those affected. Samus has ranged options, bomb, and Zair. Mario fireball, cape. DK Bair, DownB. Luigi fireball, tornado, Bair. bowser eh flamethrower? im just throwing stuff out there as ways to avoid CG from DDD and anyone else.

Or go with what I was saying earlier, ban infinites. Also note that the IC's infinite is much harder to get into than Dedede's. Patsie didn't admit defeat, he had things to do and no one actually countered anything he said. Him and Hedgedawg brought up all the points, they answered everyone else's. Those attacks arn't going to save you in the least bit from getting grabbed. Face it, your going to get grabbed. It's only realistic to think so.

The examples you listed have already been thought of, they won't keep you from getting grabbed. I don't understand why bomb, fireball, cape, fireball, tornado, 2nd bair and flamethrower were even mentioned. Also, your going to keep Dedede away by firing charge shots at him? He even has Waddle Dees/Doos and Gordos to beat people's projectile game.

This match-up is stacked so much against these characters it's unbelievable.

Just banning the IC infinite only makes the IC's worse and not worth playing as much. Why are you so concerned about the IC's being imbalanced when that's the nature of the whole game? There are a million things in Brawl that are more imbalanced than the IC infinite.

The IC's arn't even my main concern, it's Dedede because I don't know as much about the IC's. Taking away the infinite would take them from what I remember as high on Chillin's tier list (not that it's perfect) to what without the infinite? Then taking away the infinite from Dedede would put him to where? It's not like these characters arn't good without it. It's taking out an exploit that gives a huge advantage to certain characters.

Think about it MK's Dimensional Cape Trick got banned. Let's find the similairities.

Inficape
-Could be used to stall the match.
-Could be used to give an advantage that wasn't stalling to a highly ranked character.

Infigrab
-Could be used to stall the match.
-Could be used to give an advantage that wasn't stalling to a highly ranked character.

Now let's find the differences.

Inficape
-Could be used as an approach.

Infigrab
-Could be used to KO characters with one grab.

Let's find how to prevent each from happening.

Inficape
-Stay winning the whole match except for when MK didn't have a chance to inficape.

Infigrab
-Don't get grabbed.

One of them was given a chance and one of them was not.

Someone explain please, I'm missing something here.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

@ general Norris
Yuna answered how its determined whats ban worthy or not. stall tactics are also banned.

the IC CG has 2 main requirements Nana alive and desynced. kill Nana is just the easiest way to deal with it. also the IC grab range is pathetic so staying not directly in their face also helps, so does proper spacing.

@ veggi
just chargeshots? samus has missles too also Zair is long ranged. brawl is slow. you take matches with thought not blind rush. those little things add up over time and do help. otherwise why do people camp? DDD CG ***** 5 characters IC's **** the entire cast other than themselves. also you can escape DDD's and only a mistake from the IC's can you escape theirs. read up on the IC's CG before ignoring it. and like RDK said the IC are nothing w/o their CG. they go lower than CF w/o it. DDD may drop a bit without his but neither him nor those he can CG move very far from where they currently are. all the banning does is make 1 less character viable and one drops a few places.

 

[eyestrain92]

*Dives in thread after seeing delicious Yuna fight.*

Let me get this straight:
If the focus is complete competitive play, chain-grabs are in apparently.
If the focus is enjoyment, chain-grabs are debatable.

It all comes down to where we draw the lines of competitive and fun. What Yuna is stating draws down to "Play to win." Thusly, you're telling everyone to main DDD, or IC if we hope to play competitive. But notice how the word is still "play?" Doesn't the very verb that connects that phrase imply a fraction of enjoyment? Instead of us just making a global ruleset, if it's such an issue, address the people making the rules wherever your tournament is being held. It's why sometimes, friendly tournaments among good players is a more enjoyable experience. It's less competitive, but more fun.

Probably everything I just said was already stated, but I might as well refresh everyone. If you play solely to win, stop whining. If you play for any form of fun, don't waste your time butting heads with rockheads.

 

[Veggi]

@ general Norris
Yuna answered how its determined whats ban worthy or not. stall tactics are also banned.

the IC CG has 2 main requirements Nana alive and desynced. kill Nana is just the easiest way to deal with it. also the IC grab range is pathetic so staying not directly in their face also helps, so does proper spacing.

@ veggi
just chargeshots? samus has missles too also Zair is long ranged. brawl is slow. you take matches with thought not blind rush. those little things add up over time and do help. otherwise why do people camp? DDD CG ***** 5 characters IC's **** the entire cast other than themselves. also you can escape DDD's and only a mistake from the IC's can you escape theirs. read up on the IC's CG before ignoring it. and like RDK said the IC are nothing w/o their CG. they go lower than CF w/o it. DDD may drop a bit without his but neither him nor those he can CG move very far from where they currently are. all the banning does is make 1 less character viable and one drops a few places.

Did you mess up this post? It seems like some things are directed to people it doesn't apply to. Anyway I'll just assume it's right.

Entering a tourney you think the Dedede's will be stopped for more than 10 seconds because of zair and missles? It's not like Samus only has a ranged game, her ranged game is going to be traveled around. Brawl being slow doesn't make any difference, Dedede has a ranged game too. This is the reason Samus loses the match, because he knows that Samus' can only keep up her ranged game for about 5 seconds before a flying character can get to her. You seem to have it in your mind that projectiles are going to hold a Dedede back, while he could get hit by 10 of them on his way there and still get her. Yet the Samus could just not get grabbed. It's a false thought. I have no idea what you're talking about by they add up, because Dedede's grab attempts and rivaling ranged game don't?

Ice Climbers don't **** the entire cast because their infinite is harder to do. You can escape Dedede's infinite? From what I've heard from everyone else, you can't. Your a rag doll. I didn't say the IC's couldn't use their chaingrab, we're not discussing that. Besides, I'd think they'd be average level characters without it. For the last 3 sentances your making things up. Dedede becomes a more balanced character, those guys in low-bottom expected tier can go to tourneys without someone trying to use Dedede against them because they know is an easy win. Then it would be an average match where the victim does things more than use a couple moves they think might make Dedede have less of a chance of grabbing them and having a Dedede player run around spamming grab.

*Dives in thread after seeing delicious Yuna fight.*

Let me get this straight:
If the focus is complete competitive play, chain-grabs are in apparently.
If the focus is enjoyment, chain-grabs are debatable.

It all comes down to where we draw the lines of competitive and fun. What Yuna is stating draws down to "Play to win." Thusly, you're telling everyone to main DDD, or IC if we hope to play competitive. But notice how the word is still "play?" Doesn't the very verb that connects that phrase imply a fraction of enjoyment? Instead of us just making a global ruleset, if it's such an issue, address the people making the rules wherever your tournament is being held. It's why sometimes, friendly tournaments among good players is a more enjoyable experience. It's less competitive, but more fun.

Probably everything I just said was already stated, but I might as well refresh everyone. If you play solely to win, stop whining. If you play for any form of fun, don't waste your time butting heads with rockheads.

Not exactly what we're discussing here.

In a tourney it should be made so that the better player will win, however I understand that some characters just do naturally worse than other characters. Regardless of this I absolutely will not stand for an obvious exploit that makes the match near unwinnable for another character to go without banning.

If the play to win thing was actually useful advice, why leave it in the videogame? Paraphrased of something said earlier "Whenever someone infinites me I punch them in the nuts, I just tell them "Don't get hit in the nuts.""

 

[RDK]

The IC's arn't even my main concern, it's Dedede because I don't know as much about the IC's. Taking away the infinite would take them from what I remember as high on Chillin's tier list (not that it's perfect) to what without the infinite? Then taking away the infinite from Dedede would put him to where? It's not like these characters arn't good without it. It's taking out an exploit that gives a huge advantage to certain characters.

Think about it MK's Dimensional Cape Trick got banned. Let's find the similairities.

Inficape
-Could be used to stall the match.
-Could be used to give an advantage that wasn't stalling to a highly ranked character.

Infigrab
-Could be used to stall the match.
-Could be used to give an advantage that wasn't stalling to a highly ranked character.

Now let's find the differences.

Inficape
-Could be used as an approach.

Infigrab
-Could be used to KO characters with one grab.

Let's find how to prevent each from happening.

Inficape
-Stay winning the whole match except for when MK didn't have a chance to inficape.

Infigrab
-Don't get grabbed.

One of them was given a chance and one of them was not.

Someone explain please, I'm missing something here.

MK's infinite cape has no other purpose than to stall the match. The D3 and IC infinites actually have a purpose, basically to get a free stock off if performed correctly. They can't be used to stall the match, because once the player being chaingrabbed reaches 300%, you have to stop and finish him off.

Remember that the infinites are basically a combo, and can be stopped by lots of things; the player not hitting the right buttons at the right time, the player being chaingrabbed using DI to get out of it. And besides, they only work on a certain part of the cast. Learn to play different characters or stop b!tching about getting infinited all the time. It's really your own fault.

Or you could always just NOT GET GRABBED.

 

[ROOOOY!]

You can escape Dedede's infinite? From what I've heard from everyone else, you can't. Your a rag doll.

If it's on one of the unlucky 5 you can't.
The Ice Climbers infinite I can understand because it takes setting up and skill to do.
A Dedede beating a Luigi/Samus/whatever 10 times better than them by simply using down-throw repeatedly (it's easy once you've got the timing down) is an absolute joke though.
I don't use any of the 5 characters in question, but I'd argue the case that the infinite on them is bull****.

 

[eyestrain92]

RDK, how about you try playing the chain grabbable characters there, buddy? See the world from the eyes of those you're condemning? Oh wait, that'd force you to get off your high horse.

Veggi, I'm immediately adapting your "In a tourney it should be made so that the better player will win." That perfectly suits the spirit of competition. Maybe not winning, but the spirit of competition, which tourneys are built on. Tournaments are not meant to be an occupation, but a contest of skill.

 

[Matador]

Veggi, I'm immediately adapting your "In a tourney it should be made so that the better player will win." That perfectly suits the spirit of competition. Maybe not winning, but the spirit of competition, which tourneys are built on. Tournaments are not meant to be an occupation, but a contest of skill.

If that's the case, we should all be using Top tier characters. The better player doesn't always win, it's always the person with the larger advantage.

Brawl isn't balanced. Brawl isn't fair. Brawl is only the pathetic remains of a party game that the competitive community has compressed and limited to fit the needs of the serious gamer. Nothing more. Infinites are not going to be banned because there's no need to.

ICs can be dealt with, there are strategies to prevent their infinite. If you can't seem to get around it, then you need to get better.

If you don't want to be caught in an infinite by DDD, you could either:
1.) Use a different character
2.) Get better

There are ways around both infinites for any character.

Bottom line, they're not serious enough to be banned. They don't affect tourney results, don't affect everyone enough to make a difference in a win or loss, and all have strategies against them. The key is to get better.

 

[Veggi]

MK's infinite cape has no other purpose than to stall the match. The D3 and IC infinites actually have a purpose, basically to get a free stock off if performed correctly. They can't be used to stall the match, because once the player being chaingrabbed reaches 300%, you have to stop and finish him off.

Remember that the infinites are basically a combo, and can be stopped by lots of things; the player not hitting the right buttons at the right time, the player being chaingrabbed using DI to get out of it.

No, the cape can be used as an approach. It's also much harder to do than Dedede's infinite as well. Exactly what I mean on the second point, a rule was made so that you couldn't use it to stall the match. You just watch the person in question, because you know when they're starting to stall when they hit a certain point.

This could be translated easily to the cape, make it so that it's only useable moving torward the opponent. It can be monitored just like how you would have to be caught using the down throw over and over past 300% to be considered stalling. In the same way the cape could be monitored by seeing someone moving away from or not moving at all while being in the cape. Both can be monitored.

We assume that when your being infinited by a Dedede player, the Dedede player knows what they're doing.

And besides, they only work on a certain part of the cast. Learn to play different characters or stop b!tching about getting infinited all the time. It's really your own fault.

Or you could always just NOT GET GRABBED.

Did I just hear this again?

 

[Veggi]

If that's the case, we should all be using Top tier characters. The better player doesn't always win, it's always the person with the larger advantage.

Like the Dedede player?

Brawl isn't balanced. Brawl isn't fair. Brawl is only the pathetic remains of a party game that the competitive community has compressed and limited to fit the needs of the serious gamer. Nothing more.

If it's been compressed, it can be compressed more to fit the needs of a serious gamer better.

Infinites are not going to be banned because there's no need to.

ICs can be dealt with, there are strategies to prevent their infinite. If you can't seem to get around it, then you need to get better.

If you don't want to be caught in an infinite by DDD, you could either:
1.) Use a different character
2.) Get better

There are ways around both infinites for any character.

Bottom line, they're not serious enough to be banned. They don't affect tourney results, don't affect everyone enough to make a difference in a win or loss, and all have strategies against them. The key is to get better.

I think I've argued with this broken record of a solution too much.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

DDD can't infinite you until well over 100% if you wiggle out of grabs quickly. Try rotating the control stick and pressing many buttons quickly and see what happens. I've seen multiple videos and had multiple real life instances of breaking out of grabs in 1 pummel at 100%.

this.

Did you mess up this post? It seems like some things are directed to people it doesn't apply to. Anyway I'll just assume it's right.

Entering a tourney you think the Dedede's will be stopped for more than 10 seconds because of zair and missles? It's not like Samus only has a ranged game, her ranged game is going to be traveled around. Brawl being slow doesn't make any difference, Dedede has a ranged game too. This is the reason Samus loses the match, because he knows that Samus' can only keep up her ranged game for about 5 seconds before a flying character can get to her. You seem to have it in your mind that projectiles are going to hold a Dedede back, while he could get hit by 10 of them on his way there and still get her. Yet the Samus could just not get grabbed. It's a false thought. I have no idea what you're talking about by they add up, because Dedede's grab attempts and rivaling ranged game don't?

Ice Climbers don't **** the entire cast because their infinite is harder to do. You can escape Dedede's infinite? From what I've heard from everyone else, you can't. Your a rag doll. I didn't say the IC's couldn't use their chaingrab, we're not discussing that. Besides, I'd think they'd be average level characters without it. For the last 3 sentances your making things up. Dedede becomes a more balanced character, those guys in low-bottom expected tier can go to tourneys without someone trying to use Dedede against them because they know is an easy win. Then it would be an average match where the victim does things more than use a couple moves they think might make Dedede have less of a chance of grabbing them and having a Dedede player run around spamming grab.

""

the first part was addressed to someone else only the part with Veggi avoe it was for you.

b/c i do not exclusively or even predominately main Samus, i do not know how she deals with DDD. i just listed those things as options to prevent the CG. im sure you can't blindly shoot there with Samus and expect to win that way, but that doesn't discourage it as an option to avoid the CG. also DDD can't force samus to approach him with his ranged option. how many DDD's take hits just to get the grab off, sure you can work,but thats not going to help all the time im sure. and Samus can just not get grabbed, thats the whole point of avoiding the CG. do you know how Samus works in the matchup, if so please explain it too me so i can see if i'm wrong about some of her options that i listed.


the IC's, once they get you in their grab. you. lose. a. stock. reguardless of how hard it is to do once its started you will die. difficult or not =/= ****. this works on all characters except themselves. DDD only forces 5 characters to lose a stock. also explain how the IC's are even marginally good w/o the CG, they aren't. they are mostly underaverage in everything w/o that. and once Nana dies a solo IC only last so long. we cannot just ignore the IC b/c their CG affects more characters, both good and bad, viable and not viable. w/o DDD's CG that helps 5 characters do better against DDD. that does nothing for them when they face other characters, especially those characters who are better than DDD. it means: "when i pick (insert 1/5 character names here) i don't have to worry about the CG from DDD, but what do i do about the other 34 characters?" and if a DDD player runs around spamming grab then he probably will lose. no good player of any character, CG or not runs around spamming grab.

RDK, how about you try playing the chain grabbable characters there, buddy? See the world from the eyes of those you're condemning? Oh wait, that'd force you to get off your high horse.

Veggi, I'm immediately adapting your "In a tourney it should be made so that the better player will win." That perfectly suits the spirit of competition. Maybe not winning, but the spirit of competition, which tourneys are built on. Tournaments are not meant to be an occupation, but a contest of skill.

RDK is not on a high horse, do not interperate blunt statements as smugness.

i do believe that skill should matter more in a tourney, but that is not so in brawl. theres not much to separate seasoned veterans from new tourney goers appearing for brawl. little to no universal AT's, some character specific ones, and some glitches but very few are game breaking, or extreamly helpful to all or even the specific character. like DACUS, snake has his own name for his b/c his is the most effective, but all the other characters who can do it like Link, Wolf and Falco's pale in comparison. lots of characters have easily spottable weaknesses and no way to supplement for them, others may have a weakness but cover for it with all their godlike goodness. some characters are amazing like MK, others like CF are not so great, not even decent. its how brawl is.

 

[Veggi]

RDK, how about you try playing the chain grabbable characters there, buddy? See the world from the eyes of those you're condemning? Oh wait, that'd force you to get off your high horse.

Veggi, I'm immediately adapting your "In a tourney it should be made so that the better player will win." That perfectly suits the spirit of competition. Maybe not winning, but the spirit of competition, which tourneys are built on. Tournaments are not meant to be an occupation, but a contest of skill.

Thanks, they seem to actually care enough to make it so if you suicide with Bowser you would win all the time. At least it makes Bowser get up a little bit. Honestly, the better player isn't always going to win, because some people play better with bad characters, yet they don't work as well with better characters. Although not doing the best they can to make all characters worth using by banning something like the infinite grab that screws over already not so good characters. They seem to be able to moderate something like a Sudden Death so that it doesn't count, but somehow it's too hard to ban an exploit that screws over 5 characters.

 

[Matador]

Like the Dedede player?

Yes, the DDD player. He can infinite you, he doesn't need to be better to win.

If it's been compressed, it can be compressed more to fit the needs of a serious gamer better.

It can be, certainly. It's just that it won't be. Compressing means choking the game further to try and make it more "fair". There's a point where you stop, and this is that point.

I think I've argued with this broken record of a solution too much.

Broken record of a solution? There's plenty of Marios, Bowsers, and DKs that don't have probelms with DDD's infinite. They adapted and can now deal with it without it being an insta-win for DDD. If YOU not being able to do it makes it seem "unfair" or w/e else you call it, then YOU have a problem.

This isn't something to be argued, this is factual information. There are viable ways around the infinites, so they don't need to be banned.

 

[eyestrain92]

Bowser: I've won against a Dair lock massive attack against Peach. Yes. DDD is different. He has counters for nearly everything you got and a tad more power, multiple jumps and less weight.

Yes, it can be compressed more. It's been so little time since it came out. In comparison to how long Melee took to be moderated, it's rediculous to claim we've hit our limit at this moment of time.

 

[Veggi]

b/c i do not exclusively or even predominately main Samus, i do not know how she deals with DDD. i just listed those things as options to prevent the CG. im sure you can't blindly shoot there with Samus and expect to win that way, but that doesn't discourage it as an option to avoid the CG. also DDD can't force samus to approach him with his ranged option. how many DDD's take hits just to get the grab off, sure you can work,but thats not going to help all the time im sure. and Samus can just not get grabbed, thats the whole point of avoiding the CG. do you know how Samus works in the matchup, if so please explain it too me so i can see if i'm wrong about some of her options that i listed.

As much as I hate being Mr. Raincloud, thinking that Dedede won't grab you if you hit him with a bunch of ranged attacks then somehow you have the ability to hit him until he reaches 150% and then you can KO him with Samus having bad KO ability. Yet, he can't get a grab on you. It's just unrealistic.

the IC's, once they get you in their grab. you. lose. a. stock. reguardless of how hard it is to do once its started you will die. difficult or not =/= ****. this works on all characters except themselves. DDD only forces 5 characters to lose a stock. also explain how the IC's are even marginally good w/o the CG, they aren't. they are mostly underaverage in everything w/o that. and once Nana dies a solo IC only last so long. we cannot just ignore the IC b/c their CG affects more characters, both good and bad, viable and not viable. w/o DDD's CG that helps 5 characters do better against DDD. that does nothing for them when they face other characters, especially those characters who are better than DDD. it means: "when i pick (insert 1/5 character names here) i don't have to worry about the CG from DDD, but what do i do about the other 34 characters?" and if a DDD player runs around spamming grab then he probably will lose. no good player of any character, CG or not runs around spamming grab.

Fine, if it's that bad, ban their infinite too. I can't understand how you would actually think that as soon as the Ice Climbers land a grab you lose a stock, when there is more to it than that. Also to think the Ice Climbers would be bad characters if they couldn't infinite is pretty ridiculous too.

RDK is not on a high horse, do not interperate blunt statements as smugness.

i do believe that skill should matter more in a tourney, but that is not so in brawl. theres not much to separate seasoned veterans from new tourney goers appearing for brawl. little to no universal AT's, some character specific ones, and some glitches but very few are game breaking, or extreamly helpful to all or even the specific character. like DACUS, snake has his own name for his b/c his is the most effective, but all the other characters who can do it like Link, Wolf and Falco's pale in comparison. lots of characters have easily spottable weaknesses and no way to supplement for them, others may have a weakness but cover for it with all their godlike goodness. some characters are amazing like MK, others like CF are not so great, not even decent. its how brawl is.

When an average person beats Bum without using an infinite please tell me. Sorry, but I'm not sure what people have been making you think. Has it been too many Brawl haters? You think Brawl actually has that little depth? You know that one of the reasons people hate Brawl is because of the infinites, right? Do people like or dislike Brawl because of the infinites? I don't even know how to generalize people any more. Just to make this clear, do you really agree with yourself in that last paragraph?