Infinites: Why, exactly, are they allowed?

[Chris Lionheart]

QFI - Quoted for idiocy.

Only the Ice Climbers and D3 (only five characters, mind you) have truly gamebreaking infinites. As I've already stated, if these were as easy to land and gamebreaking as you say, I think we'd see a lot more ICs AND D3s winning tourneys around the nation. Funny how they don't.

Well, to be fair, D3 wins, but once again, he's a good character without the CG.

EDIT:


Like five characters have infinites on Potemkin in GGXX, and they're not banned. They're not particularly hard to do (for a 2d fighter in that vein, at least. Most Smash players would have issues with the input speed and precision, methinks, though I could be wrong), either.

As well, Testament has an infinite loop attack. He's already top tier without that.

In other words, people, they don't ban infinites, even in games where they matter more.

Quoted For True Idiocy.

The reason that these characters don't win tournaments is that many players choose not to use infinites (I believe it is for honor but everyone has their own reasons).

But for those that do, why shouldn't it be banned.

 

[fkacyan]

The reason that these characters don't win tournaments is that many players choose not to use infinites (I believe it is for honor but everyone has their own reasons).

lolwut?

You obviously haven't been to many tourneys, so I'm going to act like you never said that.

 

[missingnomaster]

(in response to Chris Lionheart)

DDD isn't guaranteed to win the toruney unless he's up against one of the characters he can infinite in the Finals (even then I'm not sure, I don't know too much about how tourneys work) and most IC mains haven't mastered the infinites yet since they are so hard

 

[ROOOOY!]

QFI - Quoted for idiocy.

Only the Ice Climbers and D3 (only five characters, mind you) have truly gamebreaking infinites. As I've already stated, if these were as easy to land and gamebreaking as you say, I think we'd see a lot more ICs AND D3s winning tourneys around the nation. Funny how they don't.

Oh my god I've realised the error of my ways! Dthrow > Dthrow > Dthrow is SO hard to land.

 

[fkacyan]

Oh my god I've realised the error of my ways! Dthrow > Dthrow > Dthrow is SO hard to land.

D3 can only chain most characters to the edge of the stage. The IC infinite chain requires far more precision than most have to pull off.

What I'm saying is that there is no evidence to prove that infinites break the game. Last I checked, the top two characters right now don't have any.

 

[Chris Lionheart]

D3 can only chain most characters to the edge of the stage. The IC infinite chain requires far more precision than most have to pull off.

What I'm saying is that there is no evidence to prove that infinites break the game. Last I checked, the top two characters right now don't have any.

And exactly how much potential damage can D3 inflict by chaining them to the edge of the stage?

 

[Zankoku]

Approximately 15% from the middle of the stage, and approximately 30% from the opposite side of the stage.

 

[Chris Lionheart]

Approximately 15% from the middle of the stage, and approximately 30% from the opposite side of the stage.

I assume this damage assumes a battle field sized stage and not a larger one like FD.

 

[fkacyan]

Approximately 15% from the middle of the stage, and approximately 30% from the opposite side of the stage.

Bingo. Little more if you're higher and he can jab you before throwing you.

ZSS can do more standing still with two downsmashes and a downthrow. Nobody complains about that, though.

EDIT:

I assume this damage assumes a battle field sized stage and not a larger one like FD.

Larger = more %. K?

It's not gamebreaking.

 

[Zankoku]

I assume this damage assumes a battle field sized stage and not a larger one like FD.

I dunno. How big is Smashville? About 3/4 the size of FD?

 

[Chris Lionheart]

Bingo. Little more if you're higher and he can jab you before throwing you.

ZSS can do more standing still with two downsmashes and a downthrow. Nobody complains about that, though.

D3's chaingrab is essentially as easy to get in as a single grab though. So your multiplying your damage by a good bit. The ZSS scenario you described however was a legit combo.

But I will agree. The D3 CG is not gamebreaking against characters that it doesn't infinite, but it is against those that it can.

For those who have mastered the IC infinite it is pretty gamebreaking though. And if you practice little but that... you are bound to master it.

Now for infinites I would suggest a cap of 5 consecutives maximum. Thats more than fair for everyone.

 

[Zankoku]

Hah, that's funny. So a chaingrab is easy and is "multiplying your damage," but ZSS standing still and pressing C-Stick down twice and then doing something (maybe an fsmash. C-Stick forward!) is a "legit combo."

 

[fkacyan]

Hah, that's funny. So a chaingrab is easy and is "multiplying your damage," but ZSS standing still and pressing C-Stick down twice and then doing something (maybe an fsmash. C-Stick forward!) is a "legit combo."

Oooh, don't forget that I can pillar him too!

dsmash, dsmash, move behind him, upB at the right time, rinse, repeat, dsmash, wait, jump and bair.

Unescapable if executed correctly on the majority of characters. Teching it is possible, but extremely difficult, as the timing on the pillar varies.

 

[Doggalina]

People like you ruin games. Want to play to win? play a game that is not terribly broken. Play Starcraft, or Counter-Strike or some other game that is properly monitored, updated and patched and controlled. The real problem with OMGCOMPETITIONLOL in a game like SSB is because there is no oversight to balance the game. The game is incredibly imbalanced, but what can you expect? There is no possible way Nintendo could have gotten it right the first time, or ever, for that matter.

My point is, get a life or play a game designed for being competitive. Hell, go play Tennis or something. Any game like Brawl is not a game you should play to win, but play to have fun. As soon as kids who had no friends growing up start playing 'games to win,' it ruins it.

How does playing to win ruin a game for YOU, or any other non-competitive player for that matter? You don't have to play that way. And for some people (like me), playing to win IS fun.

 

[MookieRah]

There is a certain maturity when it comes to professional gaming/competitive gaming that is not shared by all of it's members. The basic ruleset that people use for any serious tournament prevents chaingrabs from being gamebreaking. No matter how lame or annoying it is, it doesn't make the characters that use them unbeatable. It just doesn't. Since it doesn't make the metagame devolve into pure chain grabbing, then it doesn't make much sense to even think about banning it. If you feel that later on down the line it WOULD be broken, you still don't ban it.

You have to wait and see if something is game breaking, you don't just point your finger at something you think is too good and ban it.

Also, most people who are up in arms about it aren't people who are playing in high level competition. What may be seemingly broken to you may not be to someone who is far better than you at the game. Also, just because it's theoretically possible that someone would always get a KO from a single grab, the truth of it is that usually this is never the case.

Please guys, stop exaggerating the situation, man up, and learn to overcome in some way or another. Every competitive player worth their weight has already done so or is in the process of doing so.

If you aren't playing this game in tournaments then you shouldn't even be in here arguing about it being banned. That just doesn't make any ounce of sense to me as to why someone who is playing for fun with friends would try to mandate what goes on in tournaments. I was hoping the scene had moved on from where it was 3 months ago.

 

[fkacyan]

There is a certain maturity when it comes to professional gaming/competitive gaming that is not shared by all of it's members. The basic ruleset that people use for any serious tournament prevents chaingrabs from being gamebreaking. No matter how lame or annoying it is, it doesn't make the characters that use them unbeatable. It just doesn't. Since it doesn't make the metagame devolve into pure chain grabbing, then it doesn't make much sense to even think about banning it. If you feel that later on down the line it WOULD be broken, you still don't ban it.

You have to wait and see if something is game breaking, you don't just point your finger at something you think is too good and ban it.

Also, most people who are up in arms about it aren't people who are playing in high level competition. What may be seemingly broken to you may not be to someone who is far better than you at the game. Also, just because it's theoretically possible that someone would always get a KO from a single grab, the truth of it is that usually this is never the case.

Please guys, stop exaggerating the situation, man up, and learn to overcome in some way or another. Every competitive player worth their weight has already done so or is in the process of doing so.

If you aren't playing this game in tournaments then you shouldn't even be in here arguing about it being banned. That just doesn't make any ounce of sense to me as to why someone who is playing for fun with friends would try to mandate what goes on in tournaments. I was hoping the scene had moved on from where it was 3 months ago.

This is a great post. Pretty much sums up every argument against the OP in the thread.

 

[Undrdog]

There is a certain maturity when it comes to professional gaming/competitive gaming that is not shared by all of it's members. The basic ruleset that people use for any serious tournament prevents chaingrabs from being gamebreaking. No matter how lame or annoying it is, it doesn't make the characters that use them unbeatable. It just doesn't. Since it doesn't make the metagame devolve into pure chain grabbing, then it doesn't make much sense to even think about banning it. If you feel that later on down the line it WOULD be broken, you still don't ban it.

You have to wait and see if something is game breaking, you don't just point your finger at something you think is too good and ban it.

Also, most people who are up in arms about it aren't people who are playing in high level competition. What may be seemingly broken to you may not be to someone who is far better than you at the game. Also, just because it's theoretically possible that someone would always get a KO from a single grab, the truth of it is that usually this is never the case.

Please guys, stop exaggerating the situation, man up, and learn to overcome in some way or another. Every competitive player worth their weight has already done so or is in the process of doing so.

If you aren't playing this game in tournaments then you shouldn't even be in here arguing about it being banned. That just doesn't make any ounce of sense to me as to why someone who is playing for fun with friends would try to mandate what goes on in tournaments. I was hoping the scene had moved on from where it was 3 months ago.

Quoting it again because it deserves to be posted three times in a row. >_> Seriously.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

By the way, if we ruin games, don't play with us. There are literally millions of others to play with that want nothing to do with us either.

QFT!

Infinites don't break Super Smash Bros games. HARD DATA shows this in previous AND current Smash tourneys. Hard data trumps theory, always!

The second that IC's or DDD start wining at above MK/Snake levels, alarms will ring and the infinites will be banned.

People will argue that this infinite is different because DDD makes 4 characters unusable. The data will just show that these character are unpopular ect.

Guess what? Sheik did this to a LOT of characters in Melee. And we STILL saw Links/Bowzers/anyone heavy show up to tournaments and they STILL placed high on occasion. They chose to work around the issue, which is something that many people on these boards do not seem to want to do anymore.

 

[Blackbelt]

There is a certain maturity when it comes to professional gaming/competitive gaming that is not shared by all of it's members. The basic ruleset that people use for any serious tournament prevents chaingrabs from being gamebreaking. No matter how lame or annoying it is, it doesn't make the characters that use them unbeatable. It just doesn't. Since it doesn't make the metagame devolve into pure chain grabbing, then it doesn't make much sense to even think about banning it. If you feel that later on down the line it WOULD be broken, you still don't ban it.

You have to wait and see if something is game breaking, you don't just point your finger at something you think is too good and ban it.

Also, most people who are up in arms about it aren't people who are playing in high level competition. What may be seemingly broken to you may not be to someone who is far better than you at the game. Also, just because it's theoretically possible that someone would always get a KO from a single grab, the truth of it is that usually this is never the case.

Please guys, stop exaggerating the situation, man up, and learn to overcome in some way or another. Every competitive player worth their weight has already done so or is in the process of doing so.

If you aren't playing this game in tournaments then you shouldn't even be in here arguing about it being banned. That just doesn't make any ounce of sense to me as to why someone who is playing for fun with friends would try to mandate what goes on in tournaments. I was hoping the scene had moved on from where it was 3 months ago.

Your ideas are awesome, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

 

[MookieRah]

Infinites don't break Super Smash Bros games. HARD DATA shows this in previous AND current Smash tourneys. Hard data trumps theory, always!

Indeed.

Every single game in which there is a decent amount of competition runs into situations like these where someone demonstrates something that is amazingly good and people blow it WAY out of proportion. In all honesty it's just people being afraid of something they aren't very knowledgeable about. Considering that I don't think there is a single person in the backroom saying that infinites are broken, it should paint a picture that in higher level play it isn't as big of a deal.

Honestly, I was in a debate almost EXACTLY like this for Age of Conan. Peepz were griping that the Guardian, the hard core tanking class, could one shot certain classes by using various stances, self buffs, and throwing off an overreach combo. This debate only came along because someone basically let a Guardian one shot them and put it on youtube (seriously the guy just stood there as the Guardian ***** him.) It's painfully obvious to anyone skilled in the game that the Overreach combo could be avoided in many ways. A) Use the active shielding to defend your left side, as Overreach only hits the left side, B) Learn to recognize the sequence of the combo and sprint away or dodge it, C) stun him/knock him down.

Luckily, even though all the cries for nerfing came, Funcom has yet to nerf Overreach. Yay for skill in an MMO! As you can see though, this is the normal reaction to seeing a video of someone dominating with something on youtube. The reality is that in most cases where people execute these things there was a certain degree of control that the opponent had that would have prevented it entirely or allowed him to escape prematurely.

 

[Doggalina]

lol, and Mookie does it again.

 

[CyanCyde]

Observation from a Smasher lacking local tourneys to attend:

I've yet to see a SBR'er who approves of any sort of CG bans/restrictions. Am I the only one to whom that speaks volumes?

 

[Foxy]

There is a certain maturity when it comes to professional gaming/competitive gaming that is not shared by all of it's members. The basic ruleset that people use for any serious tournament prevents chaingrabs from being gamebreaking. No matter how lame or annoying it is, it doesn't make the characters that use them unbeatable. It just doesn't. Since it doesn't make the metagame devolve into pure chain grabbing, then it doesn't make much sense to even think about banning it. If you feel that later on down the line it WOULD be broken, you still don't ban it.

You have to wait and see if something is game breaking, you don't just point your finger at something you think is too good and ban it.

Also, most people who are up in arms about it aren't people who are playing in high level competition. What may be seemingly broken to you may not be to someone who is far better than you at the game. Also, just because it's theoretically possible that someone would always get a KO from a single grab, the truth of it is that usually this is never the case.

Please guys, stop exaggerating the situation, man up, and learn to overcome in some way or another. Every competitive player worth their weight has already done so or is in the process of doing so.

If you aren't playing this game in tournaments then you shouldn't even be in here arguing about it being banned. That just doesn't make any ounce of sense to me as to why someone who is playing for fun with friends would try to mandate what goes on in tournaments. I was hoping the scene had moved on from where it was 3 months ago.

EVERYTHING that needed to be said in this thread. You're a good dude.

Seriously. Close and lock. If anyone tried to refute anything he said, they deserve to be shot.

 

[GofG]

There is a certain maturity when it comes to professional gaming/competitive gaming that is not shared by all of it's members. The basic ruleset that people use for any serious tournament prevents chaingrabs from being gamebreaking. No matter how lame or annoying it is, it doesn't make the characters that use them unbeatable. It just doesn't. Since it doesn't make the metagame devolve into pure chain grabbing, then it doesn't make much sense to even think about banning it. If you feel that later on down the line it WOULD be broken, you still don't ban it.

You have to wait and see if something is game breaking, you don't just point your finger at something you think is too good and ban it.

Also, most people who are up in arms about it aren't people who are playing in high level competition. What may be seemingly broken to you may not be to someone who is far better than you at the game. Also, just because it's theoretically possible that someone would always get a KO from a single grab, the truth of it is that usually this is never the case.

Please guys, stop exaggerating the situation, man up, and learn to overcome in some way or another. Every competitive player worth their weight has already done so or is in the process of doing so.

If you aren't playing this game in tournaments then you shouldn't even be in here arguing about it being banned. That just doesn't make any ounce of sense to me as to why someone who is playing for fun with friends would try to mandate what goes on in tournaments. I was hoping the scene had moved on from where it was 3 months ago.

I thought Sirlin was the ultimate threadwinner.

I was wrong.

 

[Ulevo]

I doubt that. In Melee, I played my friend, an Ice Climbers main, and won, despite his using Wobbling. It frustrated me at first (I called it cheap a lot), but I learn how to avoid it (I used Falcon's spacing moves). We were at about equal skill levels. If you were to play the best DK out there, he would be at a higher skill level than you. Infinites aren't autowin, not even close. (And Wobbling is more banworthy than DDD's inifinite because it works on everybody)

Ice Climbers require Nana and Popo to be present. As a defense, the player can keep the two seperated to avoid being grabbed. Given Dededes reach, and being a singular character, you can't do that. If he could infinite on every character the way he could the 5, it would be banned indefinitely. So since it's only on the four, it isn't banned. That doesn't change how broken it is to those particular characters. That is the unfortunate and unfair truth that dampers the viability of those characters.

Do I care? No. Are there ways around it? Yes, despite being difficult. I still believe it is unnecessary to leave the issue alone, but I love Smash at the end of the day regardless.

 

[MookieRah]

So since it's only on the four, it isn't banned. That doesn't change how broken it is to those particular characters. That is the unfortunate and unfair truth that dampers the viability of those characters.

Not everything is fair, in fact most things aren't. Again, while it sucks for those select few characters it doesn't break the entire game. You can still use those characters, just don't use it against D3. Brawl isn't very technical, so there really isn't much of an excuse for not knowing at least 2 characters very well.

Again, this is part of the maturity aspect to competitive play. Everyone wants a game that's perfectly balanced while having a lot of variety, but that simply isn't possible. People want to ban things in order to achieve that perfect balance, but that would just result in destroying the potential of the game, as well as make it REALLY hard on tournament organizers to enforce the rules. Ultimately there are sacrifices that are made for the good of the metagame, and this is one of them.

 

[Ulevo]

I understand that entirely. It is the maturity any good player must assume. I often have to explain this to fellow Smashers I play with. I cannot help though but sympathize with the idea that a gun shouldn't be allowed in a knife fight. Thats the price we pay as competitors.

 

[CR4SH]

Just don't get grabbed. No computer is ever in control of the opponent, even if he's getting infinited. Yes, he cannot escape if you do it properly, but boo hoo him.

I know this is a pretty worthless comment, but I feel like I have to say it because it bugs me. When you are getting infinited, the computer IS in fact controlling your character, otherwise you'd be completely stationary. You aren't doing anything, your character is, the computer is controlling this. thats all. =P

 

[WITH]

Sirlin pretty much covered exactly this case. The issue with DDD's infinites appears to be pretty much exactly the same as the issue with Old Man Sagat in his example - essentially, allowing him/them makes several characters pretty much unusable by anybody who wants to win. Or so we think, since we don't have 10 years of tournament experience with a several-month-old game.

It feels like the issue is more the unbalanced character matchup it creates rather than the infinite itself. The IC's have infinites on everybody, but a lot fewer people take issue with that, because the ICs overall end up fairly balanced, with the power of the infinites being balanced out by the fact that they're really hard to start up and avoidable, and by the fact that other than that, the ICs kinda suck. If DDD had an infinite on DDD, I don't think there would be as much of an issue with letting DDD dittos become all about that one grab - I, personally, would laugh at him getting a taste of his own medicine

So perhaps the better way of approaching the problem is to rethink how we let people pick characters instead of trying to go into the game mechanics and micromanage how you're allowed to play? If you rephrase the issue as 'if character X has ONE extremely bad matchup, it becomes impossible to safely use character X more than about one-third of the time without running the risk of ending up in an unwinnable match', it might be simpler to approach. This was less an issue in Melee, because there weren't as many characters that 'could be quite good except for that one absolutely horrible unwinnable matchup'.

The simplest way I can think of is just to allow either player to opt for a ditto (or maybe to opt to take Random?) instead of [whatever matchup] - allow the person to take the disadvantage of trying to beat the opponent at his own character instead of the greater disadvantage of being stuck in one of those matchups. Or give each player one chance to 'rechoose' characters, essentially giving the opponent the advantage of counterpicking characters to get out of the disadvantage of That One Bad Matchup.

Or something else, I'm sure there are other ways to set up the character select to give those Unlucky 7 a way to [usually] get out of the matchup, ones that don't end up changing too much else, the ones I listed are just ones I thought up off the top of my head right now, I'm sure there are better ways of setting it up, maybe even make it matchup-specific ('A DK vs a DDD is allowed to switch to ___' or soemthing).

Not like my opinion on this matters, I'm neither a smash expert or a tournament organizer, but just thowing some things out there that you more knowledgeable people may be interested in discussing

Best idea i've read in 30 pages or whatever...since its apparently too hard to ban and enforce the throw combo, the best solution is to allow people to opt out of those "7" matchups somehow...like a repick/counterpick option if they get matched like that.

 

[old king coal]

It's hard to get grabbed if you play campily and safely. Also, you can leave yourself open on purposes. The frame window for a grab vs. a dodge is small. In order to properly punish a dodge or a roll, a smash that stays out for a long time is much more suitable.

This is what I meant by sacrificing yourself, to spotdodge and roll more than usual, leaving yourself open for getting hit by moves but at the same time reducing the chances of getting grabbed. Also, you must not be playing Brawl, where Marth's grab range is nowhere near as good as it was in Melee.

One powershield won't do jack if you're camping with projectiles or auto-canceling and/or spacing properly. Neither will one spot-dodge (if you're doing those things I just mentioned).

i think that it is quite rare that you will find a match will two similar skilled players, where a grab does not occur. watch all the videos of the top smashers and there are plenty of grabs. or as this guy said in better words:

I'm not saying you should feel bad, but saying that the other player just shouldn't get grabbed is not fair. I don't care how skilled a person is, it would be unreasonable to expect him to avoid getting grabbed an entire match, especially against another skilled player. You have to be leagues better than your opponent to never let them grab you an entire match, and at tourney level play, that won't happen. Avoiding a grab is not at all comparable to avoiding a Falcon Punch - I don't think I have to explain that one.

falco and ice-climbers grabs are fair because they can do it on (almost) everyone, and it isn;t near good enough to be broken

However: marths infinite on ness/lucas and DDD's infinites are. they destroy a total of 7 characters. these characters cannot be used in a tournament because of this. you will get grabbed (read above) and then die horribly. lets have a look at the pros and con's of banning it...
Pros:
makes 7 characters usable at tournament level

cons:
?????
it is not unfair to marth/DDD who are already better than the characters that they can infinite. so i dont know ....any suggestions yuna?

in fact yuna, please only answer this one question and ill be happy: how is marths infinite on ness/lucas positive for the game? all it does is destroy 2 characters. And please dont say "we dont ban things unless they make it so you have to play 1 character or 3 to win" because there is no good reason why should be allowed
I define "cheap" as requiring far more skill to overcome than to execute (in most situations)
^^^ie: getting grabbed, and doing the grab

no-one would say that infinites destroy the game. snake and meta-knight are living proof of this. however they destroy characters in the case of marths and D3's infinite. why keep them? they take no skill to use and getting rid of them would not affect any aspect of marth and D3's game.
my suggestion for a easy rule to enforce:
for marths infinite: When marth has ness/lucas in a grab, the marth player must throw the opponent in a direction, or if failing to do that, cannot re-grab them as their next move.
for D3's: cannot regrab of a throw

this would not affect marth;s and d3's tournament placings, as they can only infinite characters that are already worse than them.

also everybody, yuna's sig is actually princess peach with the colours inversed. (i thought it was some weird bird thing untill now)

 

[old king coal]

sorry to double post, but also look 2 post above me for an alternative

 

[fkacyan]

sorry to double post, but also look 2 post above me for an alternative

See the edit button?

Use it.

 

[MookieRah]

i think that it is quite rare that you will find a match will two similar skilled players, where a grab does not occur. watch all the videos of the top smashers and there are plenty of grabs. or as this guy said in better words:

Grabs will occur, but it's up to you to do your best to avoid them, especially the ones that could lead to a KO.

"Don't get grabbed" is a philosophy that goes beyond merely avoiding the grab. A lot of people see that and scoff, but they don't see the underlying message it also has, which is to position yourself to limit or heavily encumber the grabs usefulness. Positioning is a key aspect of play that most competitive players honestly aren't aware of. It's a combination of knowing your character's strengths, knowing the stage, knowing your matchups, and playing a proactive game with lots of observation. Good positioning can prevent these infinites from getting out of hand.

Of course, even if you do everything you can, you will eventually get grabbed and on occasion lose a stock from it. In the grand scheme of things this isn't even remotely broken, because many characters have several options to gimp KO that can occur just as often.

 

[Dantarion]

Until CG'd destroys the smash tournament scene, don't ban it.

Yes, infinates aren't fair, but ****, the game isn't fair!

"Snake pwns me as falcon"<---technically, this isn't fair, as no matter how good I get with falcon, that same amount of effort put into learning snake would mean thathave a better chance of winning with snake. If I really want to win, I would just learn to abuse the best character, but I choose not to, just like I choose to not base my character selection on CG. And yes, I can beat someone playing as snake as falcon, because I am good, and snake, just like CG, doesn't automatically qualify a win. It helps, but it doesn't force a win(yet)

No matter how good I get as a CG'd character, I am going to get grabbed, and I am going to get infinated, and I am going to deal with it. Until matches because CG fests, and "Don't get grabbed" becomes the main rule of smash, other than "YOU MUST RECOVER", they won't be banned.

 

[Dark Sonic]

All these people complaining about grabs must've never hear the term spacing before. Seriously, they only character in that bunch with any sort of good grab range is DDD, and ironically, the characters he infinites all either have good projectiles or great range, and can easily stay out of his grab range.

Marth's infinite grab on Ness is the least of their worries, but at the same time it's not that hard to avoid being grabbed by any subpar Marth anyway, since his grab range isn't that good in the first place. The only Marths that should successfully get a grab on you in the first place, are Marths close to your skill level. But if that's the case, Marth's already massive character advantage would've gave him the match anyway, and the infinite is really just icing on the cake.

DDD, you either camp him with your projectiles, or just camp outside his grab range with well spaced, long ranged attacks (sorry bowser, you're still boned).

Ice Climbers...just treat it like wobbling in melee, only now they have worse grab range, slide more, have no wavedash, and it's harder for them to do so they might mess up even if you do get grabbed. Why are we even talking about this again?!

All in all, I don't see how any of these would prevent a competent player from maining any of these 7 characters and doing well in a tournament. First of all, even if the opponent counterpicks against you they'd actually have to be good with that character. If you have any sense of spacing and they try to just go for the infinite, you'll just **** them. If they're actually good with the character, they'll just **** you, regardless of whether or not infinites are allowed, because the majority of these matchups are already really bad for the 7 characters. Enforcing a ban on this might affect tournament preformance a little bit, but it will also do something that I think is very wrong. It would set a precedent for prematurely banning things, and in the worst case scenerio:
Tournament preformance for those 7 improves-that's actually a good thing, but read more
Other debaters use this example to argue for other bans
One or more of these premature bans negatively affects competative play
Tournament organizers draw arbitrary lines for what gets banned
Turnout drops due to conflicting rulesets
The community becomes divided over conflicting opinions.
The smash scene as a whole dies, with small individual communities remaining.


Banning things is a very serious issue, and it's very very rare for anything to be banned before it's shown to affect tournaments. If it isn't causing problems, it's because either the players have found a counter to it (spacing), or it's still not fully developed. If it's the latter, it will eventually become a problem, and players will start desperately looking for a counter. If a counter is found, then the we leave it alone. But if no counter is found, and it continues to limit competative play on a large scale, then it might get banned. However, it will only be banned after it causes a problem and after a period of time is spent searching for a counter. Less we want the above scenerio to happen.

tl:dr version
It's bad to ban things early, because it sets a precident for banning things early and people love to jump on the opportunity to ban more things.

 

[Miller]

What I don't get is why people like to complain as much as they are. If you hate it so much, find a way around it, don't come onto SWF and cry like babies about it. Guess what, there is only one kid in my crew who complains about it, and thats because hes just a sore looser (Haha if you see this, you know who you are). Just grow up and figure out ways around it.

 

[WITH]

i like how the perfect solution, changing the way characters are picked gets mentioned 8 pages ago and is glossed over, then i quote it 1 page ago and its glossed over...if people are so opposed to banning a move, lets just improve the system so these 7 characters have a defense against counterpicking that still doesnt take the advantage away from the counterpicker.

This may include:

When someone counterpicks someone with an infinitable character (ie: you won as DK or picked DK, so i will pick DDD to completely destroy you) that character can then either repick or pick random or something (i don't care) in which case the DDD will then be able to repick to keep his entitled advantage.

This solution allows SEVEN more characters to be in the tournament scene while not doing the "forbidden" - banning infinite grabs.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Why is this thread still going on. Mookie already won this, it should be closed and locked ASAP.

 

[Blackbelt]

Why is this thread still going on. Mookie already won this, it should be closed and locked ASAP.

I believe the term is QFT.

 

[Amarkov]

i like how the perfect solution, changing the way characters are picked gets mentioned 8 pages ago and is glossed over, then i quote it 1 page ago and its glossed over...if people are so opposed to banning a move, lets just improve the system so these 7 characters have a defense against counterpicking that still doesnt take the advantage away from the counterpicker.

This may include:

When someone counterpicks someone with an infinitable character (ie: you won as DK or picked DK, so i will pick DDD to completely destroy you) that character can then either repick or pick random or something (i don't care) in which case the DDD will then be able to repick to keep his entitled advantage.

This solution allows SEVEN more characters to be in the tournament scene while not doing the "forbidden" - banning infinite grabs.

That has the same problem as with banning infinite grabs; how far do you go?

For instance, say you have a Meta vs. Ganondorf matchup. It's technically possible for the Ganondorf to win... but realistically, that's going to happen about as often as Ness or Lucas beat Marth. Now, do we allow you to repick that matchup as well?

Not to say that I agree with that logic, but it applies no matter what you do to stop infinites.