In Regards To The Lack Of Melee Techniques

[Mr.C]

isn't the new L-cancel better, since it removes all lag instead of just half?

Either way it's a new game, but people that were insanely good with Melee will still be good with Brawl, after the learning curve

In ways yes....but in the sense it completely takes out full jump aerial, double jump aerials being able to be L canceled is pretty bad.

 

[Classic-Black]

but isn't that taking the stance that new adv. techs won't develop? It's a new game and a new engine, so while everything might not survive the jump from Melee exactly as it was, New things will fill the void.

That's just part of the learning curve

 

[Mr.C]

but isn't that taking the stance that new adv. techs won't develop? It's a new game and a new engine, so while everything might not survive the jump from Melee exactly as it was, New things will fill the void.

That's just part of the learning curve

I agree but I don't understand why they would take out Bcancels and reverse B's =[

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

I really hate when people say this....lol Isai is not the best at melee because there are people better then him plain and simple. He cant just magically say "I'm going to the best" it doesn't work like that. He just doesn't have enough skill at the game to beat top players anymore.

I'd like to point out, from the other part of your post:

The pros are good because they practice and have the desire to become better at the game.

I never said Isai is the best at Melee, just that he has the capability to be, and lacks the desire. He probably would tell me "you don't know what ur talking about", but whatever.

 

[NES n00b]

I agree but I don't understand why they would take out Bcancels and reverse B's =[

Sakurai hates you. . . . . . . . .

Nintendo is strange about what stays in and what leaves. They do things in a way that keeps you guessing what there stances are to "bugs." (Snaking in Mario Kart, l-cancelling in Smash, etc) They do not make public stances like Bungie so who knows.

 

[Mama]

I agree but I don't understand why they would take out Bcancels and reverse B's =[

I don't think they looked at it and said "lets get rid of that" I think it might simply be another result of the engine transition like wave dashing. It sucks for some characters but it doesn't effect me (Ganon and Peach user) at all.

 

[gtkdltk007]

True. Maybe Havok, the engine they are possibly using, recognizes glitches and abnormailities like WaveDashing and removes them.

 

[MookieRah]

Maybe Havok, the engine they are possibly using, recognizes glitches and abnormailities like WaveDashing and removes them.

Havok is simply the physics engine. It has nothing to do with recognizing glitch abnormalities.

I'm also confused about the no turn around B move stuff. I don't think it is quite as big of a deal as Mr. C is making it out to be (I play Mewtwo, Marth, and CF so it's not like all the characters used this trick) but it is sad to see it go for no apparent reason. I don't think casual players would have had anything against that either.

This is one of the "few" things I would concede on that maybe Nintendo simply didn't intend for it to happen with, or just decided to remove it for possible balance issues (like I noted, a lot of characters don't have B moves that can turn around). Either way, it's probably out for good. I don't imagine them putting it back in the final version, but here is hoping.

 

[Shiekyerbouti]

The only reason I even bothered with advanced techs was because everyone else in the competitive smash community used them. I actually love the fact that we don't have to base our games on glitches anymore, because it certainly wasn't intended in the creation of melee.

 

[Sliq]

because it certainly wasn't intended in the creation of melee.

Yeah, I like making baseless assumptions too. It is my favorite pastime.

 

[Haruno Kotetsu]

People will get over it.

To me, Wavedashing and the likes of those techniques are simply tools to make someone perform better. Just because some are out dosent mean we're all going to suck.

We'll find an alternative and power hungry members will find some other tool on Brawl to worship.

 

[Nilok]

I'm sorry to say this, but this thread is just repeating itself. I feel that it should be closed as, although points are being made, people seem to ignore them and other seem to flame.
I've read almost all of this thread and it seems to be only repeating itself every 2-3 pages.

 

[MookieRah]

Yeah, I agree Nilok. Sadly I don't have mod powers back here, so I can't do anything but hand out infractions :-(.

 

[Zarelid]

OMG it's mookierah!

 

[maxieman]

OMG it's a guy screaming It's Mookierah!

 

[4 Aces]

To the people who are flaming: Easy on the flaming. I think he had enough. You're supposed to just singe him, not torch him. XD It feels like a tendency here that when someone has a differrent opinion than the majority of the boards, almost everyone pulls out a flamethrower. Just something I noticed.

I'm am sad that they are gone, but I guess there will be some new techniques to learn. Every new move pretty much has like 10 new things to take advantage of (directional airdodge anyone?), so don't fret; there's going to be a lot of new things to discover.

 

[maxieman]

^ NUH UH YOUR AN IDIOT AND A LIAR AND YOUR MOM IS ASHAMED OF YOU (jk)

BUt really less advanced techniques might add even more strategy. Less options can sometimes force you to really take advantage of every bit you get although this works with the right increase in techniques as well. Im just hoping it doesnt become a button masher (I still think it isn't)

 

[MookieRah]

Holy bajesus Zarelid. How long has it been? 3 years? Where have you been???

BACK ON TOPIC:
It's not so much that everyone pulls out the flamethrowers against someone with a differing opinion as much as it is that usually the people we pull them out on are making incredibly ignorant statements that are based on stereotypes and a contempt for the competitive smash scene.

 

[courte]

People will get over it.

To me, Wavedashing and the likes of those techniques are simply tools to make someone perform better. Just because some are out dosent mean we're all going to suck.

We'll find an alternative and power hungry members will find some other tool on Brawl to worship.

well put i think it'll be called roflcoptring -- there was no typo

 

[Gracen]

I said L-Button Canceling because L-Canceling stands for Lag Canceling and we still have that (SHFF) but it's more simple. I'm not stupid. And why does everyone think I'm whinning, or I need to suck something up?

And no, we're less than 2%.

Ya know finally some one feels the same way i do.
I could not agree with you anymore Hypnotist!!!
I believe if you want to make a game better you don't take things out of it.....
people say:" this isn't melee 2.0 this is a new game"....I DON'T CARE!!!
you don't see madden take anything OUT of 2003 that wasn't in 2002....they made the game better!!!!
If i wanted to play a DIFFERENT game i'll play street fighter. but, I WANT TO PLAY SUPER SMASH BROS!!!! they have changed and taken out things that even the 64 smash had....what are they doing???? AND I DO PRETTY MUCH WANT MELEE 2.0

 

[GreenKirby]

Honestly, this forum is just full of Dead Horse beaters. You JERKS!

 

[mattc1231]

people will find crazy a$$ stuff, when it comes out it will only be a matter of time before some advanced techniques get started

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Ya know finally some one feels the same way i do.
I could not agree with you anymore Hypnotist!!!
I believe if you want to make a game better you don't take things out of it.....
people say:" this isn't melee 2.0 this is a new game"....I DON'T CARE!!!
you don't see madden take anything OUT of 2003 that wasn't in 2002....they made the game better!!!!
If i wanted to play a DIFFERENT game i'll play street fighter. but, I WANT TO PLAY SUPER SMASH BROS!!!! they have changed and taken out things that even the 64 smash had....what are they doing???? AND I DO PRETTY MUCH WANT MELEE 2.0

+1 complaint from another member who joined in the last 3 months

 

[GreenKirby]

Ya know finally some one feels the same way i do.

I feel so sorry for you then. lol

I could not agree with you anymore Hypnotist!!!
I believe if you want to make a game better you don't take things out of it.....

Unless it ruined the game. DId you ever think of that? And before you jump off at the mouth, I'm not talking about wavedashing.

people say:" this isn't melee 2.0 this is a new game"....I DON'T CARE!!!
you don't see madden take anything OUT of 2003 that wasn't in 2002....they made the game better!!!!

Sonic Adventure 2 is better than Sonic Adventure 1. Yet Big, Amy, and Gamma were removed as playable characters. So this point isn't valid. Heck, I can name others


If i wanted to play a DIFFERENT game i'll play street fighter. but, I WANT TO PLAY SUPER SMASH BROS!!!! they have changed and taken out things that even the 64 smash had....what are they doing????

It's a new game. Melee was different from the 64 version. And Melee was never called 64 2.0. >_> Look son, I know the fear that you're showing. Most other competive smashers have it as well. They're afraid of RELEARNING the game. Suck it up though. You're just gonna have to relearn it fool

AND I DO PRETTY MUCH WANT MELEE 2.0

And I want respect. I guess neither of us are getting what we want

My respones are in teh green

 

[FightingGameGuy]

Most other competive smashers have it as well. They're afraid of RELEARNING the game. Suck it up though. You're just gonna have to relearn it fool

Rofl, nice attack on the "most" of competitive smashers.

I personally think this attack is near totally groundless, but that aside, the fear the thread starter expressed is actually quite different, namely that Nintendo is trying to remove competitive depth from the game.

P.S. why is this fear not true? Look at Gimpy's thread, a lot of people are excited about finding new advanced techniques and their uses. Even more people are excited about learning about the new characters and what moves on the old ones have been tweaked. Does this sound like fear to you? And while people are complaining about the removal of old techniques, one can be both excited about finding new techniques (and implementing) and sad that old techniques were removed at the same time.

 

[LinkGadra]

I personally think this attack is near totally groundless, but that aside, the fear the thread starter expressed is actually quite different, namely that Nintendo is trying to remove competitive depth from the game.

emphasis mine

Have you sifted through the Brawl Boards recently? Every ten threads or so is someone complaining about something or other not being in Brawl. So while it may only be most of the "competitive" smashers on this site, there still looks like a lot of people not wanting to have to learn anything new.

 

[FightingGameGuy]

@LinkGarda

Your totally right about the threads , but once again I don't see how complaining that something has been taken out has to equal not wanting to learn anything new.

I think you're making an unnecessary assumption about the motives behind these complaints, an assumption made all the more tenuous by the insult implied by claiming that someone is afraid.

Take myself as an example:

I'm upset wavedashing was taken out (I'm an IC main for crying outloud), but I'm not afraid of relearning or learning anything -- I'm sad that a large part of the type of character play-style that I enjoyed the most will not be returning to brawl; me and my Ice Climbers will no longer be able to zip around the ground as we please to control the spacing -- one of the reasons I chose to main ICs in the first place.

Nonetheless, I looked forward so much to the opportunity to learn about and use new characters as well the new ability to attack after upbs and airdodges that I went to E for all and wrote a report about Sonic and his moves that you can read in the Sonic subforum here.​

 

[Mama]

Problem is people are over reacting to the things taken out which makes them come off fearful and childish. Its sickening. But if you haven't noticed most of the people who aren't worried don't even post in these threads. I'm just upping my post count really. I'm not going to respond to threads like this cuz they only attract more stupid folk and noobs.

 

[Captain J]

OK I may get murdered for this, but I got some things to say.

I am pretty good at teh Smash. However, I play with a certain moral code, that I impose on other folks. This includes the intentional restraint of "cheap moves" or as I came to learn they were called in tournaments, "Advanced techniques". I won't go into detail, unless someone wants me to, but like I said before, more likely you all want to kill meh.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

OK I may get murdered for this, but I got some things to say.

I am pretty good at teh Smash. However, I play with a certain moral code, that I impose on other folks. This includes the intentional restraint of "cheap moves" or as I came to learn they were called in tournaments, "Advanced techniques". I won't go into detail, unless someone wants me to, but like I said before, more likely you all want to kill meh.

I don't want to kill you. I genuinely want to know where you draw the line, how you draw those lines, and why you feel your system of honor is superior to that of other casual smashers.

 

[LavisFiend]

What I can not understand about Smashboards in GENERAL is this...

How everyone is so **** critical about a game that has not came out yet...

More importantly, how people think the world is coming to an end because of repaired techniques...

For heavens sake people, THE MAN SAID HE WANTED TO FOCUS ON AERIAL BATTLES!

AE-RI-AL BA-TT-LES.

A-E-R-I-A-L B-A-T-T-L-E-S.

BRAWL WAS MAINLY GROUND BASED. SURE, the main combos spawned into air juggling, but it was basically a frantic game of who can get the other up in the air the fastest and **** frantically. It's as simple as that, there is no silver lining. That's it.

The inclusion of the brand new momentum based air dodge only furthers what I preach. Wavedashing had to pack it's bags and go, because it conflicted with the new image of air-oriented battles that's in store for Brawl. Isn't it obvious? What's the point of having a wavedash, when now, you have a completely fluent and new mechanic just begging to be broken in? This new mechanic could spawn more "advanced techs" than you could wrap your head around, but the mass of Smashboards remains the same when it comes to bawling and whining about techs getting the boot.

Have any of you ONCE thought that, hey, Melee advanced techs conflicted with new advanced techs? No? Of course not, because the main mind around here is still hooked to a Melee mindset. We still have SHFF, and we still have L-canceling (to an extent.)

So why the crying? Why put Brawl on the chopping block? You haven't played the finished product, quit JUDGING it based off of NOTHING.

It is so **** AGGRAVATING, you have no idea...

To the critics....

I hope you break your Brawl CD....

and never get to play it...

That'll teach ya...

 

[Blood Alpha]

I think it's exciting just thinking about what could be in brawl. I mean sure they may have taken out some well established AT's from melee and tweaked others, however who knows what new At are in store begging to be explored?. No one should be complaining about this, instead we should be anticipating a great game and what it has to offer in it's new fighting mechanics.

 

[LinkGadra]

OK I may get murdered for this, but I got some things to say.

I am pretty good at teh Smash. However, I play with a certain moral code, that I impose on other folks. This includes the intentional restraint of "cheap moves" or as I came to learn they were called in tournaments, "Advanced techniques". I won't go into detail, unless someone wants me to, but like I said before, more likely you all want to kill meh.

How exactly do you "impose" this code onto other players? I don't see how you could get everyone you play to agree to your code, seeing as the game doesn't have any kind of indicator for when AdvTs are used.

 

[skoo]

Jigglypuff WOP FTW!!!

 

[A New England Winter]

Personally, I'm a bit happy they took out some of the advance techs. Gives me a chance to learn the new ones at the same pace as everyone else. I came into the Smash scene late...But with Brawl, I pre-ordered and payed it on the first day it was out for pre-ordering. I don't even have a Wii yet...

Secondly, I think it's stupid to try and make such erroneous claims against the Big N. Obviously, if they didn't appreciate the Competitive scene, they'd have either taken out ALL possible ATs, or made them n00b easy. It's not like they're giving you the finger or anything. The game's not even released yet, so how could you think you know what the intentions of the game, all of the features, or anything of any real importance?

I will say this, however. When you do play the game, and give it a shot, and I mean really DIG IN THERE, and after a good amount of time you're still annoyed or pissed, then you may complain all you want. Rant, rave, shout in the streets, make an Anti-Brawl website or Myspace, picket outside NOA, go emo, I don't care. But right now, you're stepping in everyone's cornflakes, and as Hoss Delgado said about stepping in another man's cornflakes, "That's a REALLY weird way to eat cornflakes".

 

[Lag]

We want a new kind of game, not a Melee 2.0.

 

[MookieRah]

BRAWL WAS MAINLY GROUND BASED. SURE,

I think you are referring to melee here. And no, melee wasn't ground based (at least not the competitive scene anyways).

ut it was basically a frantic game of who can get the other up in the air the fastest and **** frantically. It's as simple as that, there is no silver lining. That's it.

That's not even remotely close to being true, and honestly it just shows how completely ignorant you are to the competitive scene, and I take offense to that. To sum up all the skill involved and make it sound entirely trivial, or as if the scene was bad because of it, is just plain dumb.

but the mass of Smashboards remains the same when it comes to bawling and whining about techs getting the boot.

No, the occasional competitive player (usually those that are decent at best) are the ones whining (if they are even whining). For those who aren't whining, they are simply sad to see it go. I can totally relate to that, as a lot of the AT from Melee were freaking fun and amazing; however, Brawl is going to be freaking awesome too. Is it wrong for us, the ones who've pretty much played this game nonstop for 6 years and putting our all into a game to post that we have feelings such as this? Absolutely not. It's A LOT more warranted than people screaming at us telling us that they were intentionally taken out so that the scrubs could beat the pros (which is just plain dumb on so many levels).

Have any of you ONCE thought that, hey, Melee advanced techs conflicted with new advanced techs?

I did, hell I noticed that after reading Gimpy's posts, and since then I've been hopping from thread to thread breaking it down to other competitive players who were concerned about Brawl not being as deep. I'd say that pretty much all of them were relieved to hear it and actually listened to my logic.

It is so **** AGGRAVATING, you have no idea...

LOL, posts like yours are also aggravating, to an extent. Some of what you said was true, but it was all said in a harsh tone that would only piss everyeone else off. The best method I've found when dealing with this kind of thing is to start off harsh, but have your last few paragraphs calm down and reiterate what you said, and give some kind of advice or something that would take the sting off. You can be passionate AND reasonable!! Yay.

 

[NES n00b]

LavisFiend. . . . . .you are wrong on so many levels. Thanksfully, Mookie did that for me.

One thing Mookie did miss. Most of the people here have blind faith that it will be the best game ever. I am somewhat tired of this optimism, but whatever, they are just opinions on a non released game and are at least upbeat.

 

[FireWater]

I don't want to kill you. I genuinely want to know where you draw the line, how you draw those lines, and why you feel your system of honor is superior to that of other casual smashers.

Its mostly an ego defense mechanism for when he loses to someone who uses those techniques that are "cheap". When a person cries "cheap" they are basically saying "You beat me in the game, but I am still better because of an irrational moral/game system that does not generalize outside of my own person"

To put it simply, the person does not feel he or she lost, because it was not a "fair fight" because "cheap" tactics were used.

David Sirlin, a professional street fighter player would call this person a scrub. Scrubs are simply players that are restricted by their own mental web of rules (Morals) that do correspond with the game world's reality.

I recommend you reading his articles, and buying his book "Playing to Win" if you have not done so already.

http://www.sirlin.net

 

[MookieRah]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention something along those lines Ryan.

To the critics....
I hope you break your Brawl CD....

Since when is it wrong to criticize something? How is it wrong to break things down? Why is it ok to embrace things entirely, without questioning or lamenting the loss of certain aspects? This kind of "all or nothing" attitude is detrimental to this site.

One of the MAIN criticisms of the competitive scene is that we squelch differing opinions, yet the casuals and the optimists all bash someone for not being certain. That is just as bad. I honestly believe Brawl will be great, but not without it's own faults. Some of Brawl's faults might even be due to Nintendo's effort to differentiate itself from melee. At this point nobody can be sure, but if people are open to express their hopes for Brawl, then people should also be able to express their doubts without being targeted for flaming just cause they aren't as optimistic.

@Fire Water: Yeah that's pretty much it; however, I bet that guy is now going to be up in arms that we called him a scrub, even though he is a poster boy for the definition.