In Regards To The Lack Of Melee Techniques

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

LavisFiend. . . . . .you are wrong on so many levels. Thanksfully, Mookie did that for me.

One thing Mookie did miss. Most of the people here have blind faith that it will be the best game ever. I am somewhat tired of this optimism, but whatever, they are just opinions on a non released game and are at least upbeat.

Their optimism lies from the general impressions from the game, or the fact that they believe in the-second-will-always-be-better-system. Since SSB64 went though such a dramatic leap, people assume that it will be the same for Brawl. No doubt, brawl will be an amazing game. Technical aspects will probably be on the equilibrium with more intelligent playing.

(That is atleast my impression from when I played it)



>_>

*Throwsmorechildreninvolcanoinhopesforacaptainfalconupdatewithkneesintact*

 

[Sliq]

The fact of the matter is people are taking what they know about brawl and applying it to Melee. They are imagining playing Melee without WD'ing and traditional l-canceling, which is unfair to do, but also relatively reasonable, considering the base gameplay won't have changed.

You can't be mad at people for being pessimistic when something they enjoy so much is altered to the point it isn't what they loved anymore. It is going to take time for people to fall in love with Brawl.

 

[the grim lizard]

You're a moron.

There are still plenty of techniques in the game. Sakurai cares about techniques; that's why there is a techniques section! Wavedashing is gone because it isn't necessary. It would be pointless to try to close the gap anyway because just as people have said all along, even if they didn't use advance techs, good players would still be good and would still whomp on poor players.

 

[Foxtorres]

You're a moron.

There are still plenty of techniques in the game. Sakurai cares about techniques; that's why there is a techniques section! Wavedashing is gone because it isn't necessary. It would be pointless to try to close the gap anyway because just as people have said all along, even if they didn't use advance techs, good players would still be good and would still whomp on poor players.

I second that... and I use advance tech's+wavedash, you dont need wavedash, time to beat the dead horse some more I guess...

 

[FireWater]

@Fire Water: Yeah that's pretty much it; however, I bet that guy is now going to be up in arms that we called him a scrub, even though he is a poster boy for the definition.

Thats fine, I'm the one who said it, I'll take the flak for it.

 

[NES n00b]

*Throwsmorechildreninvolcanoinhopesforacaptainfalconupdatewithkneesintact*

haha, yes. A man of my own heart.

@Jason, thank you. I didn't think I was the only one to notice that. <_<

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Even when I miss my L-cancels, I tend to escape unscathed because typical casual smashers do not know how to punish at the right times. So, sure, take away my advanced tactics. I will still win. >_>

 

[Sliq]

You're a moron.

There are still plenty of techniques in the game. Sakurai cares about techniques; that's why there is a techniques section! Wavedashing is gone because it isn't necessary. It would be pointless to try to close the gap anyway because just as people have said all along, even if they didn't use advance techs, good players would still be good and would still whomp on poor players.

I have to assume you are directing that at TC and not at me, but if it is directed at me:

 

[Mike87]

Nintendo is most likely trying to close the gap between good players and casual players. Nintendo refuses to regonize talent in gaming. Because of these reasons we have no ranking system and we lost wavedashing, L Button Canceling, and many other techniques. Nintendo knew we loved these techniques but still removed them, the inclusion of these techniques would not have made the casual fans of the games upset [in a vaccum]. However, Nintendo beilves the more techniques they can remove the less competetive the game will be. Nintendo refuses to recgonize competitive gaming or talent. However there is no way Nintendo can seriously close the gap and them thinking so is sad, and newbs will get pwned online by the 0.75% of the Smash Community.

Discuss, no flames please.

What makes you think that there will not be any new techniques?

 

[maxieman]

^ the fact that he makes baseless assumptions and complains about something he knows nothing about, but then tells us not to flame and that he isnt whining wich he most certainly is

thats what makes him think that

 

[MookieRah]

^ the fact that he makes baseless assumptions and complains about something he knows nothing about, but then tells us not to flame and that he isnt whining wich he most certainly is

You do know his opinion has changed since the creation of this thread, right? I think he realizes that he was jumping the gun when he accused Nintendo to be anti-competitive. There is no reason to continually bash him on something that he already regrets.

Thats fine, I'm the one who said it, I'll take the flak for it.

Naw mangz, I got your back. If he can't accept the truth it's his fault. I was just saying that cause I was making sure you were ready in case someone retaliated.

 

[maxieman]

Yeah yeah sure sure

 

[Dizzynecro]

Well, I decided to start a blog to stash all my recurring arguments. I am tired of typing out the same things over and over. So, to anyone who thinks wavedashing is a glitch:

http://roabs.blogspot.com/2007/11/wavedash-is-not-glitch.html

A glitch is just n ninteded phenomonon in a game and im pretty sure that nintendo did not forsee people usingd a instant diagonal down air dogdge to bypass not being able to smash attack while running among other tings. therfore it is a glitch.

 

[Sliq]

A glitch is just n ninteded phenomonon in a game and im pretty sure that nintendo did not forsee people usingd a instant diagonal down air dogdge to bypass not being able to smash attack while running among other tings. therfore it is a glitch.

You don't know that Nintendo didn't foresee wavedashing. Nintendo has never come out and said that. You are making an assumption.

You could also ASSUME they didn't foresee people using Fox's shine to spike, but that still happens. Are you going to tell me that the knock back from the shine is a glitch, even though the programmers programmed it to have set knockback and send opponents at a low horizontal trajectory?

Lemonade is a glitch, because God never intended for us to squeeze the juice out of it, add sugar, and then drink it.

 

[Mr.C]

It's a new game. Melee was different from the 64 version. And Melee was never called 64 2.0. >_> Look son, I know the fear that you're showing. Most other competive smashers have it as well. They're afraid of RELEARNING the game. Suck it up though. You're just gonna have to relearn it fool

Wrong...ALL competitive smashers are happy about the new additions to the game and learning new techniques and learning new characters. What we fear is Nintendo messing up an amazing game that has a very dedicated competitive community. Melee is the most in depth fighting game ever made....we don't want to see that go.

Lemonade is a glitch, because God never intended for us to squeeze the juice out of it, add sugar, and then drink it.

Dizzy just got owned lols

 

[FightingGameGuy]

A glitch is just n ninteded phenomonon in a game and im pretty sure that nintendo did not forsee people usingd a instant diagonal down air dogdge to bypass not being able to smash attack while running among other tings. therfore it is a glitch.

No, your definition of glitch is not right at all. A glitch is something caused by a programming error or a system malfunction.

Calling everything unintended a glitch is a ridiculuous definition. In Mario 64 is it a glitch if I take an alternate route I made up to get a star? Or if I proceed differently than intended in nearly any game? Your reasoning is a improper extension of the already weak "that's not the way the game was meant to be played!" logic.

If you had read Buzz' article you would have found a real example of a glitch in Smash Bros, the IC grab glitch. I can name many more: the thunderjacket, flat kirby, Sticky Turnips, and I'm sure there are even more.

Ironically, there still are grounds for calling a wavedashing a glitch, if you want to say that its a programming error that you can airdodge during the time that your jump has started but your character has not even gotten off the ground.

IMO, though, since this doesn't crash the system or produce results outside the bounds of the system (wavelanding was discovered and kept in) its more of an exploit than a glitch, but that's just my opinion.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

A glitch is just n ninteded phenomonon in a game and im pretty sure that nintendo did not forsee people usingd a instant diagonal down air dogdge to bypass not being able to smash attack while running among other tings. therfore it is a glitch.

Wavedashing is, at worst, an exploit. However, everything that happens is natural. You are essentially stating that creativity is a glitch. We are not allowed to be smart and use our brains to increase our chances of winning. We must comply to a preset method.

 

[Dizzynecro]

You don't know that Nintendo didn't foresee wavedashing. Nintendo has never come out and said that. You are making an assumption.

You could also ASSUME they didn't foresee people using Fox's shine to spike, but that still happens. Are you going to tell me that the knock back from the shine is a glitch, even though the programmers programmed it to have set knockback and send opponents at a low horizontal trajectory?

They probably did intend for fox's shine to spike at a low horizontal trajectory, considering thats spesifically how they programed it, but wavedashng is a very odd property by rapidly puting in several inputs so you just slide. Definatley something they didn't forsee becasue if they did im pretty sure they would have taken it out.(which they did for brawl) saying that you for some odd reason think nintendo DID intend to have wavedashing is just using bad logic. So there are no glitches nintendo is perfect and everying is as it is ment to be huh?

Lemonade is a glitch, because God never intended for us to squeeze the juice out of it, add sugar, and then drink it.

Sure he did. didn't you know that god know all prerealizes everything so he knew exactally what would happen if he made lemons. they didn't evolve or anything silly like that.

Wavedashing is, at worst, an exploit. However, everything that happens is natural. You are essentially stating that creativity is a glitch. We are not allowed to be smart and use our brains to increase our chances of winning. We must comply to a preset method.

no im saying that the effect of airdoging toward the ground and waking up(being able to fully act) while moving toward your opponent is a glitch. im not saying its bad or that you shouldn't use it. I love wavedashing, its the greatest GLITCH ever. i think its ups the depth of the game signifigantly.

No, your definition of glitch is not right at all. A glitch is something caused by a programming error or a system malfunction.

Calling everything unintended a glitch is a ridiculuous definition. In Mario 64 is it a glitch if I take an alternate route I made up to get a star? Or if I proceed differently than intended in nearly any game? Your reasoning is a improper extension of the already weak "that's not the way the game was meant to be played!" logic.

If you had read Buzz' article you would have found a real example of a glitch in Smash Bros, the IC grab glitch. I can name many more: the thunderjacket, flat kirby, Sticky Turnips, and I'm sure there are even more.

Ironically, there still are grounds for calling a wavedashing a glitch, if you want to say that its a programming error that you can airdodge during the time that your jump has started but your character has not even gotten off the ground.

IMO, though, since this doesn't crash the system or produce results outside the bounds of the system (wavelanding was discovered and kept in) its more of an exploit than a glitch, but that's just my opinion.

ok your logic is pretty strange. they programmers did not intend for you to take one and only one route to a star in mario 64,. And glitchs dont have to be flashy, game ruining, or seisure inducing. I'd say its a minor glitch that should have been adopted "officially" into the system for brawl. but its not so lets all discover something just as cool for the new game.

Ironically, there still are grounds for calling a wavedashing a glitch, if you want to say that its a programming error that you can airdodge during the time that your jump has started but your character has not even gotten off the ground.

this is definatley what im trying to say, an unintended effect programing wise is what i meant so i gues thats a programing error.
oh no now my post is gigantic

 

[Dizzynecro]

ignore this

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

no im saying that the effect of airdoging toward the ground and waking up(being able to fully act) while moving toward your opponent is a glitch. im not saying its bad or that you shouldn't use it. I love wavedashing, its the greatest GLITCH ever. i think its ups the depth of the game signifigantly.

Where is the glitch in that? Sliding into the ground is a normal aspect of the physics engine. They could have easily decided to disable all attacks during that slide process, but they chose not to. Being able to attack was not a glitch or a programming accident. It makes perfect sense. If I never used an attack of any kind, why should I be restricted upon making contact with the ground? Your statement simply makes no sense!

 

[Dizzynecro]

Where is the glitch in that? Sliding into the ground is a normal aspect of the physics engine. They could have easily decided to disable all attacks during that slide process, but they chose not to. Being able to attack was not a glitch or a programming accident. It makes perfect sense. If I never used an attack of any kind, why should I be restricted upon making contact with the ground? Your statement simply makes no sense!

Sliding into the ground is a normal aspect of the physics engine. but is Slidling over and over again as your character does not leave the ground a normal part of the engine?

 

[Sliq]

They probably did intend for fox's shine to spike at a low horizontal trajectory, considering thats spesifically how they programed it,...

This is an assumption.

...wavedashng is a very odd property by rapidly puting in several inputs so you just slide. Definatley something they didn't forsee...

This is an assumption.

...becasue if they did im pretty sure they would have taken it out.(which they did for brawl)...

Two assumptions for the price of one! You assume they would have taken it out, and you assumed they changed the air dodge mechanic because of wavedashing.

...saying that you for some odd reason think nintendo DID intend to have wavedashing is just using bad logic

No, basing your entire argument off of assumptions is bad logic.

It isn't my job to divine the will of the programmer. It is my job to win. I use what they give me to win.

Sure he did. didn't you know that god know all prerealizes everything so he knew exactally what would happen if he made lemons. they didn't evolve or anything silly like that.

Now you assume God is real and can see the future.

 

[Dizzynecro]

This is an assumption.



This is an assumption.



Two assumptions for the price of one! You assume they would have taken it out, and you assumed they changed the air dodge mechanic because of wavedashing.



No, basing your entire argument off of assumptions is bad logic.

It isn't my job to divine the will of the programmer. It is my job to win. I use what they give me to win.

you have to assume some things to function in life you just use LOGIC to determine what makes sense. You apperntly dont i suppose you make sure you know EVERYTHING 100% before arguing any point?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Sliding into the ground is a normal aspect of the physics engine. but is Slidling over and over again as your character does not leave the ground a normal part of the engine?

Are any combos part of the engine? What the heck are you getting at? Why do you care so much about the creators' intent anyway? Are you afraid you will offend them?

 

[Sliq]

you have to assume some things to function in life you just use LOGIC to determine what makes sense. You apperntly dont i suppose you make sure you know EVERYTHING 100% before arguing any point?

No you don't because there is EVIDENCE.

I could say Mountai Dew was intended to be used as a means to wash your car, and everyone drinking it is glitching, but I have no EVIDENCE to support my claim.

I like to have a handle on what I'm arguing about before I argue about it, and the first thing I do is gather evidence instead of making assumptions.

I'm going to write a paper for my class, but instead of doing research, I'm just going to assume the 40 million acres of forest are cut down every second, especially if it benefits my cause. Bet I don't get a passing grade.

 

[Dizzynecro]

Are any combos part of the engine? What the heck are you getting at? Why do you care so much about the creators' intent anyway? Are you afraid you will offend them?

yes combos are part of the engine. there is a combo meter in practice mode. and "creators intent" is part of the definition of glitch.:

No you don't because there is EVIDENCE.

I could say Mountai Dew was intended to be used as a means to wash your car, and everyone drinking it is glitching, but I have no EVIDENCE to support my claim.

Or you could use your mind and determine probable reasons for things.

This is an assumption.

Now you assume God is real and can see the future.

your the one who asumed god was real when you stated"Lemonade is a glitch, because God never intended for us to squeeze the juice out of it, add sugar, and then drink it." and im assuming god can see the future because its heavily implied if not stated in the bible which is the basis for beleif in God.(as in the god of chritianity which i ASSUME you were refering to was i right?)

 

[GKirby]

Although it is by now too late to even do anything about this, i have to agree that Nintendo isn't really caring for their Hardcore players... They are ruining everything for us and trying to please only one crowd. I mean the casual players can still learn to do these moves! Even if they are at a disadvantage it is quite fun.. When i play online and i play against true pros, i find it much more fun seeing as it is more challenging! If they decide to remove competition, where is the challenge?

 

[Sandwich]

Personally I'm glad Sakurai gave me and the majority of Smashers the middle finger.
It's really hard to make assumptions that game 1 is the measuring stick so game 2 has all that and more.


...Unless you're a Halo fan.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

yes combos are part of the engine. there is a combo meter in practice mode. and "creators intent" is part of the definition of glitch.:

That is not true. Using paper plates as frisbees is not a glitch. You are referring to exploits. I am perfectly willing to accept wavedashing as an exploit, but a "glitch" implies that the game falls outside its intended bounds. Falling through the center of the stage is a glitch because it happens despite the programmers' direct effort to make the ground completely solid.

 

[Sliq]

Furthermore, regardless of whether or not WD'ing (or any AT for that matter) is a glitch, it isn't unfair or overpowering in any way. All it requires is for someone to put the time in to learn how and when to use them.

If I beat a noob, it isn't because I'm using 1337 hax, it is because I have more skill and am more knowledgeable than my opponent.

 

[Dizzynecro]

That is not true. Using paper plates as frisbees is not a glitch. You are referring to exploits. I am perfectly willing to accept wavedashing as an exploit, but a "glitch" implies that the game falls outside its intended bounds. Falling through the center of the stage is a glitch because it happens despite the programmers' direct effort to make the ground completely solid.

well the programers made their best efforts to stop you from doing smash attacks while moving by not allowing it normaly but with this glitch it works. this argument is now just splitting hairs over definitions and its pretty irrelevant to the topic either way they didn't intend for wavedashing so we will probably discover other things similar in brawl that will be used in the competetive scene.

Furthermore, regardless of whether or not WD'ing (or any AT for that matter) is a glitch, it isn't unfair or overpowering in any way. All it requires is for someone to put the time in to learn how and when to use them.

If I beat a noob, it isn't because I'm using 1337 hax, it is because I have more skill and am more knowledgeable than my opponent.

I could not agree more.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

well the programers made their best efforts to stop you from doing smash attacks while moving

Where is your proof for this very statement? I 100% guarantee you made that up on the spot.

 

[NES n00b]

well the programers made their best efforts to stop you from doing smash attacks while moving by not allowing it normaly but with this glitch it works. this argument is now just splitting hairs over definitions and its pretty irrelevant to the topic either way they didn't intend for wavedashing so we will probably discover other things similar in brawl that will be used in the competetive scene.


I could not agree more.

How do you know that? Seriously, how do you? Did you sneak in Hal Labatories building and steal Sakurai's old notes? I really want to know how you could make such bold statements of what Sakurai intended.

Also, since you are claiming it is a glitch, semantics/rhetoric is in at this point. Sorry.

 

[Dizzynecro]

Where is your proof for this very statement? I 100% guarantee you made that up on the spot.

as in you can walk or run and smash attack. right? they didn't let you, they could have but didn't.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

as in you can walk or run and smash attack. right? they didn't let you, they could have but didn't.

But they let you do it while sliding (which is NOT a glitch). So, how are you able to derive the conclusion that because you cannot walk/run and smash (something they programmed in), it violates the ability to slide and smash (something they also programmed in), where sliding is nothing more than "moving in a standing position"? Your logic has so many holes in it, it is embarrassing.

You are simply ASSUMING the creators' intents. You don't know anything.

 

[NES n00b]

as in you can walk or run and smash attack. right? they didn't let you, they could have but didn't.

But you can, you can wavedash and smash. Therefore, it is intended by your logic. You can also run and JC upsmash. You can dash cancel and smash. You can DD, pivot and smash. LOL, alot of mistakes running around.

 

[Dizzynecro]

But you can, you can wavedash and smash. Therefore, it is intended by your logic. You can also run and JC upsmash. You can dash cancel and smash. You can DD, pivot and smash. LOL, alot of mistakes running around.

no because wave dash is the dam glitch so its not intended . these are not even smash attacking while moving either all of your examples are dashing stoping and very quickly smash attacking.

But you can, you can wavedash and smash. Therefore, it is intended by your logic. You can also run and JC upsmash. You can dash cancel and smash. You can DD, pivot and smash. LOL, alot of mistakes running around.

no because wave dash is the dam glitch so its not intended . these are not even smash attacking while moving either all of your examples are dashing stoping and very quickly smash attacking.

But they let you do it while sliding (which is NOT a glitch). So, how are you able to derive the conclusion that because you cannot walk/run and smash (something they programmed in), it violates the ability to slide and smash (something they also programmed in), where sliding is nothing more than "moving in a standing position"? Your logic has so many holes in it, it is embarrassing.

You are simply ASSUMING the creators' intents. You don't know anything.

its called an opinion and mine is as valid as your. I think the creators did not intend whatever, you say they did. so why would you be right? its could be a glitch if they had not intended it but you have stated that it IS NOT a glitch as a fact.

 

[NES n00b]

no because wave dash is the dam glitch so its not intended . these are not even smash attacking while moving either all of your examples are dashing stoping and very quickly smash attacking.

You are sliding before you smash. . . . . . .<_< Therefore, you are not running. So he did not create it so you can run and smash.

 

[Sliq]

At this point there isn't any reason to argue with him anymore, because all he keeps doing is copying and pasting, "Wavedashing is a glitch because it wasn't intended," over and over again.

No point in arguing with ctrl + c, ctrl +v.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

no because wave dash is the dam glitch so its not intended . these are not even smash attacking while moving either all of your examples are dashing stoping and very quickly smash attacking.

Why do you want wavedashing to be a glitch so badly? We respond to your statements bit by bit, but you refuse to listen to reasoning. You simply concoct "designers' intents" out of thin air to respond to us. By ignoring people with more sense than you, you are hereby deemed a TROLL.