In my opinion, Sakurai could have done a better job with balancing the game.

[GofG]

what a stupid thread

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175364

 

[OrlanduEX]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175364

HA HA HA! OH WOW!

You, sir, win the f***ing thread.

 

[FBM]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175364

Flawless victory.

 

[StarshipGroove]

Sheesh, what's with everyone convincing themselves that Sakurai has some huge conspiracy behind everything?

Why does it have to be some ridiculous conspiracy? Can't it be a game developer, stressed by Nintendo's constant request for Kirby sequels, that decides to pull a little prank? Can't it be Sakurai with a little too much pride for his favorites? Obviously he didn't predict how the whole tier list would shape up, but it isn't hard to develop a character's moveset to be better than the rest of the roster.

And the metagame doesn't have that much of an influence, the top tier characters in all three games had jacked up stats to begin with. Kirby's fast and overpowered smashes, ridiculous spikes and special moves in SSB64, Marth's speed, strenght and range, Snake's everything...

About Snake, Sakurai stated he played several matches as Mario, against Kojima as Snake. Perhaps Kojima, after losing most matches, complained about Snake's complex moves and Mario's effectiveness, requesting for a boost to Snake.

Yes, I'm aware I'm reading a bit too much into this. Who cares?

Anyway, yeah. Maybe it is a stupid thread.

 

[GofG]

Why in the world would Sakurai play Mario over Kirby?

 

[Yuna]

I'll take 25%-55%(Might be pushing it at 55%) over 8%-16% viable.

Even 33% is pushing it.

 

[StarshipGroove]

Why in the world would Sakurai play Mario over Kirby?

Kojima stated so in the interview where he declared "Brawl feels complete". Sakurai played most matches as Mario, and Kojima joked about how he couldn't get himself to beat up Mr.Nintendo.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

People really need to learn to stop freaking complaining about everything.

 

[Lore]

weird.

Anyway, Brawl still isn't as bad as MvC2, but it still is pretty bad. Only 1/3 of the cast is truly usable, imo.

Still, most tier lists I have seen have sheik/zelda near the bottom of mid tier, yet she is perfectly usable. I just think that maybe tier lists may not truly show who is most usable (other than MK, but I'm not going down that road) but only results of tourneys. In fact, I have played against many good MK and Snake's with only sheik and I have beaten them. MK isn't really unbeatable, imo.

 

[OrlanduEX]

weird.

Anyway, Brawl still isn't as bad as MvC2, but it still is pretty bad. Only 1/3 of the cast is truly usable, imo.

Still, most tier lists I have seen have sheik/zelda near the bottom of mid tier, yet she is perfectly usable. I just think that maybe tier lists may not truly show who is most usable (other than MK, but I'm not going down that road) but only results of tourneys. In fact, I have played against many good MK and Snake's with only sheik and I have beaten them. MK isn't really unbeatable, imo.

The Brawl Tier list is certainly premature since the game is just 6 months old. I think the top and high tier characters are solid in their positions since they're so widely played, but I think the mid-low people could move around some.
I agree that the whining over MK's "brokenness" is unwarranted.

 

[Yuna]

The Brawl Tier list is certainly premature since the game is just 6 months old. I think the top and high tier characters are solid in their positions since they're so widely played, but I think the mid-low people could move around some.
I agree that the whining over MK's "brokenness" is unwarranted.

The Tier List is not set in stone. No Tier Lists ever are. All other fighting game communities are able to produce Tier Lists within 6 or so months of the game's release, why can't the Smash community?

Are we just so incompetent compared to everyone else? Why does the Smash community look down on itself so much? "Oh, we can't do this." O RLY? Then how come everyone else can?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Melee: Falco, Fox...gap... Shiek, Marth, Peach, Captain Falcon,...small gap...Ice Climbers
Samus, Doctor Mario, Jigglypuff, Mario, Ganondorf,...gap...Link, Luigi etc.

You do know that the tier list is outdated for melee right?

And that Marth and Shiek are both considered to be better than Falco. Some also believe Jigglypuff should move up, thanks to her recent success (Mango). Don't know where she'd go though (I'd personally put her right above Samus).

Just sayin'

 

[The Slayer]

You do know that the tier list is outdated for melee right?

And that Marth and Shiek are both considered to be better than Falco. Some also believe Jigglypuff should move up, thanks to her recent success (Mango). Don't know where she'd go though (I'd personally put her right above Samus).

Just sayin'

Not saying you're wrong, but would it be a little unwise to put Jigglypuff further up because of one tourney victory? I understand if she's winning more tourneys, more people using her and even more so due to the outdated Melee tier list, but it's kinda silly moving her up because of one person doing the work.

 

[Gerbality]

He did a good enough job by not putting mudkips in as a playable character.... If they made it in all other characters would become useless.

If you haven't noticed, the only way to make a game 100% fair, you would have to have everyone play the same character. Even then, your fight for equality is futile, certain controller ports have priority over others, random factors(first spawns, certain characters 'b' moves). Life sucks, live with it.

OR, you could look on the positive side of unbalanced characters.
PLAY A BOTTOM TIER CHARACTER JUST TO SHOW YOU DON'T GIVE A **** ABOUT MINDLESS CONFORMITY.
(Yes, I realize the irony of me talking of fighting conformity by starting my post referencing mudkips :/)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The Tier List is not set in stone. No Tier Lists ever are. All other fighting game communities are able to produce Tier Lists within 6 or so months of the game's release, why can't the Smash community?

Are we just so incompetent compared to everyone else? Why does the Smash community look down on itself so much? "Oh, we can't do this." O RLY? Then how come everyone else can?

The six month thing is true, however, that isn't what he was addressing.

After six months some communities have changed the tier list when new play styles or for other factors. That is what he was saying for the lower tiers of brawl.

 

[OrlanduEX]

The Tier List is not set in stone. No Tier Lists ever are. All other fighting game communities are able to produce Tier Lists within 6 or so months of the game's release, why can't the Smash community?

Are we just so incompetent compared to everyone else? Why does the Smash community look down on itself so much? "Oh, we can't do this." O RLY? Then how come everyone else can?

I didn't say that we couldn't/shouldn't make a tier list or that it couldn't change. I said it was too young to be entirely accurate. I think it will take quite a few more months to fully gauge where the lower tier characters really stand with respect to the higher ups.

 

[Yuna]

I didn't say that we couldn't/shouldn't make a tier list or that it couldn't change. I said it was too young to be entirely accurate. I think it will take quite a few more months to fully gauge where the lower tier characters really stand with respect to the higher ups.

Of course it's too young to be entirely accurate. I'm just sick and tired of people saying "It's too early for a Tier List" and I thought that was what you meant.

The Tier List will change in time, most probably. But that doesn't mean it was too early for us to throw v. 1.0 out there.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Not saying you're wrong, but would it be a little unwise to put Jigglypuff further up because of one tourney victory? I understand if she's winning more tourneys, more people using her and even more so due to the outdated Melee tier list, but it's kinda silly moving her up because of one person doing the work.

Well, hungrybox has been doing really well in Florida. And I honestly do believe that Jigglypuff is a better character than Samus.

And I know people keep referencing Pound 3, but Jigglypuff's tournament placings weren't really "bad" to start with. Heck at Fast 1 Hungrybox got 2nd in teams and 7th in singles.

I think it's justifiable to put Jigglypuff above Samus.

 

[Sky`]

Of course it's too young to be entirely accurate. I'm just sick and tired of people saying "It's too early for a Tier List" and I thought that was what you meant.

The Tier List will change in time, most probably. But that doesn't mean it was too early for us to throw v. 1.0 out there.

It's too early for a tier list.

For a set in stone Tierlist. Shiek not top tier anymoar Ftw?
/10pissykittyyunas.

 

[PKNintendo]

fyi sakurai doesn't like wario

Bull ****.

 

[PKNintendo]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188730

Read the whole topic. Sakurai hates,hates, HATES Link.
Thats why he sucks in Brawl.
They nerfed the spin attacks power, aerial distance, and made is sword range smaller.

 

[Vulcan55]

Well, in Brawl, Every character Excels in their own unique way!
Every character can rise above

Just read this.
Made my ****ing day.

 

[Sky`]

The Tier List is not set in stone. No Tier Lists ever are. All other fighting game communities are able to produce Tier Lists within 6 or so months of the game's release, why can't the Smash community?

Are we just so incompetent compared to everyone else? Why does the Smash community look down on itself so much? "Oh, we can't do this." O RLY? Then how come everyone else can?

No, you just look down on everybody as inferior to your ultimate logic, oh master god Jesus.

Let somebody else have an opinion. A tier list in any respect is premature for every single character. Deny that.

I dare ya.

There isn't much you can say about that being untrue, because some of the claims are just crazy. Link isn't bottom. Peach isn't below bowser. Most tier lists are just a Bias. I can understand the top six, that is the most stable at this point.
But we can't make one for Every character.

 

[Sky`]

Just read this.
Made my ****ing day.

Instead of trying to make something witty, why don't you try to rebut it?
Can you? Or are you just going to sit there and laugh at something you don't understand?

Mewtwo can't win tournaments. = Melee.

Diddy kong, Peach, and even Luigi and IC's can. = Brawl.

Link beat DSF in a MM in Brawl? Hmm.

/10brokenheartstessellatetonight.

 

[Yuna]

It's too early for a tier list.

For a set in stone Tierlist. Shiek not top tier anymoar Ftw?
/10pissykittyyunas.

What part of "The tier list is obviously not set in stone and will most probably change" was too Jamaican for you to grasp?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188730

Read the whole topic. Sakurai hates,hates, HATES Link.
Thats why he sucks in Brawl.
They nerfed the spin attacks power, aerial distance, and made is sword range smaller.

That trailer proves what? That the game has changed? Yes, any nerfings must be because of character preference! Also, his sword range is longer than in Melee.

Let somebody else have an opinion. A tier list in any respect is premature for every single character. Deny that.

Why? Motivate that claim.

There isn't much you can say about that being untrue, because some of the claims are just crazy. Link isn't bottom. Peach isn't below bowser. Most tier lists are just a Bias. I can understand the top six, that is the most stable at this point.
But we can't make one for Every character.

According to you, the Tier List is faulty, thus, it shouldn't be in existence? Like how we shouldn't have had a Melee Tier List 'til 2006 since every single one that came before it was faulty?

 

[RDK]

Instead of trying to make something witty, why don't you try to rebut it?
Can you? Or are you just going to sit there and laugh at something you don't understand?

Mewtwo can't win tournaments. = Melee.

Diddy kong, Peach, and even Luigi and IC's can. = Brawl.

Link beat DSF in a MM in Brawl? Hmm.

/10brokenheartstessellatetonight.

Wow. One lost MM totally means that no tier list will be accurate, ever.

You're logic literally couldn't be any worse.

There isn't much you can say about that being untrue, because some of the claims are just crazy. Link isn't bottom. Peach isn't below bowser. Most tier lists are just a Bias. I can understand the top six, that is the most stable at this point.
But we can't make one for Every character.

You obviously have no ****ing idea how tier lists work. GG.

 

[Sky`]

Kk. This is how I feel about the matter.

Like. In Brawl, we've got the side that feels the Tier list is made prematurely, and we've got the side that says it's 100% accurate. I know that nobody is an extremist in both respects, but everybody seems to have chosen a side.

I just feel like, The First maybe 6 people on the tier list are set in stone, because we've really seen those characters rise above, and conquer tournaments, you know? Isn't that what the tier-lists currently are based upon?

As for the other characters... I just seriously doubt they were put the way they were just on Tournament results.

My Thesis.

I think it is too early to determine who falls in any category below God/high tier, because there aren't enough people who main the people below those two categorys, and there aren't enough people exploring their metagames and winning tournaments. Not because they are incapable, but there are so many tier whores, that the rise of the people who drop their mains and go after Metaknight to maybe get an easy win has increased.

Can anybody seriously deny that?

 

[Sky`]

Wow. One lost MM totally means that no tier list will be accurate, ever.

You're logic literally couldn't be any worse.



You obviously have no ****ing idea how tier lists work. GG.

And your debating skills couldn't be worse. Way to get emotional.

Anyway, I just believe that One MM will not alter the Tier list, but it will spring hope. That's what I was trying to Instill.

 

[Sky`]

According to you, the Tier List is faulty, thus, it shouldn't be in existence? Like how we shouldn't have had a Melee Tier List 'til 2006 since every single one that came before it was faulty?

People shouldn't be Jizzing all over any tier list constructed right now.

Lets learn from our mistakes in Melee.

And don't use my Race to patronize me in a debate Yuna. You don't see me calling out your personal issues and what not.

 

[OrlanduEX]

No, you just look down on everybody as inferior to your ultimate logic, oh master god Jesus.

Let somebody else have an opinion. A tier list in any respect is premature for every single character. Deny that.

I dare ya.

There isn't much you can say about that being untrue, because some of the claims are just crazy. Link isn't bottom. Peach isn't below bowser. Most tier lists are just a Bias. I can understand the top six, that is the most stable at this point.
But we can't make one for Every character.

ROFL. You're basically saying that every tier list is faulty. How can you say that the tier list is based on bias? That's ludicrous. Tier lists are based on tournament results and match-ups. Of course the current tier list is young and quite prone to change (since the game is young and we lack completely accurate match-up data), but that doesn't mean that it is just made up based on how people feel about the characters.
The fact that you disagree with some of the characters placings within their tiers doesn't change anything. Aren't YOU being biased?
Link and Peach suck. Get over it.

 

[Sky`]

ROFL. You're basically saying that every tier list is faulty. How can you say that the tier list is based on bias? That's ludicrous. Tier lists are based on tournament results and match-ups. Of course the current tier list is young and quite prone to change (since the game is young and we lack completely accurate match-up data), but that doesn't mean that it is just made up based on how people feel about the characters.
The fact that you disagree with some of the characters placings within their tiers doesn't change anything. Aren't YOU being biased?

/10mypointisbolded


So. Humor me.

Is this tier list 100% accurate?

 

[OrlanduEX]

/10mypointisbolded


So. Humor me.

Is this tier list 100% accurate?

I just said I think it isn't. Multiple times. But you said that "most tier lists are based on bias", which shows that you don't even have a good idea of how tier lists are made. Even if time passes and we learn more about the game, based on how simplistic Brawl's engine is with respect to the development of new techniques and such, the characters probably won't be moving too far from where they are now. Link can move up to lower-middle tier at best (and that's a stretch). Maybe a few mid tier people like Fox and Olimar could move to high tier. Maybe Marth and Wario could move to top. That's about it.
The most drastic change I can perceive is the inclusion of more tiers like a bottom tier for Ganondorf, C.Falcon, and Link and a God tier for MK.

 

[Sky`]

I just said I think it isn't. Multiple times. But you said that "most tier lists are based on bias", which shows that you don't even have a good idea of how tier lists are made. Even if time passes and we learn more about the game, based on how simplistic Brawl's engine is with respect to the development of new techniques and such, the characters probably won't be moving too far from where they are now. Link can move up to lower-middle tier at best (and that's a stretch). Maybe a few mid tier people like Fox and Olimar could move to high tier. Maybe Marth and Wario could move to top. That's about it.
The most drastic change I can perceive is the inclusion of more tiers like a bottom tier for Ganondorf, C.Falcon, and Link and a God tier for MK.

Yeah dude, That's what I'm saying. I mean how are you going to place every single character in the PERFECT Place? You can't this early on. So my statement, "Some characters are put where they are mainly due to Bias," Is somewhat true.

Do you really think that whoever made that tierlist, looked at every single tournament, and looked at the results, and used Statistics to put every single person in the exact place? Hell no. Maybe for the first 6, but how far can you go before you stop using tournament rankings (Due to a gross lack there of) and you start just thinking of simple logic as to who goes where?

A perfect tier list is constructed, when the person or persons who make it don't have to use simple logic, because all of the tournament Data and stuff is right there.

It's not long enough to do that yet, so the Tier list we have now isn't 100% accurate, which means that they would have had to put some characters that they don't belong.

/10that'sabiasithink.

 

[Vulcan55]

Mewtwo can't win tournaments. = Melee.

Diddy kong, Peach, and even Luigi and IC's can. = Brawl.

You win a prize for worst comparison ever.

Mewtwo = Worst (debatably) character in the game.
Luigi and Peach = Middle tier.
Diddy and ICs = High tier.

Now maybe if Ganon or Jigglypuff were winning Brawl tournaments, your post would have some credability, but it doesn't

Link beat DSF in a MM in Brawl? Hmm.

Because that means so much.

OMG I BEAT SOMEONES FOX WIF PICHU IN ONE GAEM.
PICHU 4 TOP TIREZZ

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Anyone notice how MK started winning twice as much as Snake just recently? Ankoku's charts show that
Snake is no longer being used in the same quanity as MK, and what's odd is the drastic increase in MK victories began sometime in the last month or so.

 

[Sky`]

You win a prize for worst comparison ever.

Mewtwo = Worst (debatably) character in the game.
Luigi and Peach = Middle tier.
Diddy and ICs = High tier.

Now maybe if Ganon or Jigglypuff were winning Brawl tournaments, your post would have some credability, but it doesn't


Because that means so much.

OMG I BEAT SOMEONES FOX WIF PICHU IN ONE GAEM.
PICHU 4 TOP TIREZZ

What Tier list are you... talking about? Peach isn't middle. Dat Hoe is Low.

 

[Vulcan55]

THE tier list

 

[Grunt]

Link beat DSF in a MM in Brawl? Hmm.

Chu Dat ***** people with Pichu? Hmm.

 

[Sky`]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ArHas4eozE

I am the best Pichu in the world.

/10falselinksforattention.

 

[Grunt]

Was the link Player KDJ?
that would make sense.