In my opinion, Sakurai could have done a better job with balancing the game.

[PKNintendo]

Im glad I got that out of my system.

 

[Yuna]

Rollout is predictable but incredibly fast.

It's not fast on startup. Because she has to charge it first.

Unless they dodge right as you launch, they won't be able to avoid the hit.

Or there's shielding.

Being predictable doesn't change the fact that it's incredibly powerful though.

So is Ganondorf's U-tilt.

A good player will be able to use it against anyone.

No, because good players won't get hit by it.

Rest has been nerfed but it's still very powerful. It can KO at 67%.

With such a tiny hitbox, only 1 frame of a hitbox and tons of cooldown, it's not really that powerful. For one thing, the tiny hitbox makes it very hard to hit with.

Jigglypuff doesn't have to rely on her specials for kills. Like I said, her smashes are great. Up and forward smash can kill at 110% uncharged. Down smash sends them a dangerous low angle. Forward air can kill at 122% without even needing to wall of pain.

110-112% is "very powerful" now you say? And you're basing this off of when she kills who, another Jiggz?

She lacks range. Not to mention her smashes aren't 5-frames. Dsmash can be DI:ed. It's a semi-spike, but you can DI it, plus, this is Brawl. 2nd jumps have been boosted and you fall ridiculously slowly.

Up tilt can kill at 126% and surprisingly her running attack kills at 149%. Jigglypuff is also godly at edge guarding.

Edguarding =/= Powerful killing moves.

126% and 149% = Powerful KO moves

Jigglypuff has a lot of problems but killing is not one of them.

It's not one of her biggest problems, but she's hardly one of the best KO:ers in the game.

Your flawless argument triumphs mine. I guess I replied too much on facts. I'll be sure to learn from that.

"How cute. But you're wrong!"

 

[Yuna]

It's really hard to balance a game with so many characters especially when he has no idea what bugs or glitches are going to be found in the future. If he can balance the game for casual players, that's already a big accomplishment. No one would have even thought of a concept like wavedashing before it was discovered. It's impossible to tell the future. It's not like he knew that a Dash Smash (Hyphen smash for all you conformists) would be possible in the game. You can only predict the future so much you see?

1) How do you know what bugs and glitches can be found in the game? By hiring competent beta testers!
2) The game is not balanced for casual play! It's not balanced in any shape or form! Casual, competitive, items on, items off, 1-on-1, teams, FFAs, you name it, it's still imbalanced.

 

[Wuss]

Yuna, nintendo did hire competent beta testers, nintendo just didn't listen to any of the problems they encountered.

the correct argument (imo) here is that sakurai wasn't trying to balance the game for the way we play. It's been said that nintendo doesn't "realize" that the smash scene exists. They try to ignore it. For this reason, it can be said that Sakurai didn't do a bad job of balancing this game, he just is ignorant of the better way to play smash. So all in all, sakurai isn't bad a making games, he's just bad at listening to what people want.

 

[Crystanium]

ZSS/Peach - same deal. Peach can float, ZSS isn't huge/fat. They can't make them heavyweights and as a result, they have to have somewhat poor killing abilities.

Zero Suit Samus seems to be doing well in tournaments, but I think that if they amped up Snake the way they did, they should have done the same with Zero Suit Samus, considering the fact that she was transfected with Chozo DNA, was trained by the Chozo and all that good stuff. Ironically, Snake's codec about Zero Suit Samus is wrong. If Samus was trained by the Chozo and is considered a "super athlete," don't you think she should have been a bit amped up like Snake?

The only real character that is both light and a very good killer is G&W, and I suppose he has 2D johns.

As much as I hate Mr. Game & Watch, I think he deserved the buffs, being a classical character and all.

Also, one last note. Just because a character is good, does not mean that Sakurai "favorites" them. I mean, some characters become good once metagame is developed, others are especially good under the competitive ruleset and could be possibly worse (or at least might place differently) under different rulesets. You have to consider the fact that sakurai definitely did not sit down, play and develop the metagame for each character while designing them.

Perhaps Sakurai doesn't have any favorites, but the three characters made by him are surely buffed in Brawl. Not to mention, you got that storyline in the SSE where Kirby saves the day, King DeDeDe beats up Bowser, Halberd ***** Great Fox, &c.

 

[Yuna]

Yuna, nintendo did hire competent beta testers, nintendo just didn't listen to any of the problems they encountered.

We know this how? Sources or it didn't happen.

the correct argument (imo) here is that sakurai wasn't trying to balance the game for the way we play. It's been said that nintendo doesn't "realize" that the smash scene exists. They try to ignore it. For this reason, it can be said that Sakurai didn't do a bad job of balancing this game, he just is ignorant of the better way to play smash. So all in all, sakurai isn't bad a making games, he's just bad at listening to what people want.

No, the correct answer is that Sakurai is incompetent. No matter how he tried to balance the game, it's still heavily imbalanced, no matter how you play it. Sakurai did a horrible job of balancing the game no matter from what standpoint you view it!

Name one way where the game is balanced.

 

[PKNintendo]

My troll radar is going berserk. If you're not one, congratulations on knocking my faith in humanity down another peg. But just on that off chance:
How, exactly, did you come by your detailed knowledge of Sakurai's thought processes? Unless, of course, you just think you can know how Sakurai personally feels about a character based solely on how they turned out in a game he directed. ("Directed," not "Single-handedly produced," as some of you seem to think) That would be what we call circular logic.



Yeah, same goes for Snake, it's not like he's had any.... oops.

Well, they DEFINITELY needed the top tier hype for... ROB and Mr Game & Watch?....er....

I've got it! There hasn't been a F-Zero game in a while either! So naturally they'd... d'oh!

Alright, alright, but his theory still holds up if you look at the consistency among characters from the same series, right? I mean, for instance, look at how close on the tier list the... Pokemon characters... are. Hmmm.


Here's a news flash to everyone: there is no such thing as a balanced fighter. Put down your tinfoil hats and stop trying to look for hidden meanings in the balance or lack thereof in Brawl.

Ha, good luck taking of my tin foil hat dude. Im crazier in live. And this isn't exactly a joke. Im just slightly bitter that my characters get owned by characters I dislike

Imagine having a brother who likes Snake, DDD, MK, Wario, Falco, Diddy, and DK as their faves. Playing against them is just hell.

Hey Yuna, what balancing (off the top of your head) would you give to a
1. good character
2. bad character
?

Also at Dryn.
ZSS should be as heavy as Snake IMO.

 

[Yuna]

Hey Yuna, what balancing (off the top of your head) would you give to a
1. good character
2. bad character

What the heck is the question here? How would I rebalance a really bad or good character? And why is it relevant?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Name one way where the game is balanced.

tripping

10trips

 

[Yuna]

tripping

10trips

Aah, but you see, it's not balanced. Certain characters rely more on dashing than others because of their poor aerial mobility and slow walking speed vs. others who have better aerial mobility and/or walking speeds.

Marth can walk pretty fast and Jigglypuff almost never needs to dash.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Name one way where the game is balanced.

Since I assume you're going by a very strict interpretation of "balanced" here...

Name one way any fighting game is balanced.

 

[PKNintendo]

What the heck is the question here? How would I rebalance a really bad or good character? And why is it relevant?

yes, how would you rebalance said 2 characters. It's relevant because I can see that your opposed to how Sakurai balanced the game (like me) and probably has more experience then me. (I would probably screw up on the balancing)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yuna, I was only jokin, when I said that about tripping. I know, that you hate it and I know, you're easy to provoke

 

[Yuna]

Since I assume you're going by a very strict interpretation of "balanced" here...

Name one way any fighting game is balanced.

Virtua Fighter-series, Guilty Gear series, they're very balanced.

Name one fighting mode or whatever where Brawl is balanced. People have spouted crap like "Oh, Sakurai didn't balance the game for Items Off 1-on-1!". Well, it's not balanced with items on and/or FFAs either.

yes, how would you rebalance said 2 characters. It's relevant because I can see that your opposed to how Sakurai balanced the game (like me) and probably has more experience then me. (I would probably screw up on the balancing)

Not that it's relevant, but here are a few things to start with:
* More lag on Meta-Knight's moves. More KO options in the air.
* Fix Snake's hitboxes, nerf his knockback and damage output, make his aerials faster.
* Nerf Game & Watch's priority, range (on a few moves), damage and knockback.

* Buff Captain Falcon's everything, pretty much. Fix the hitbox on his Nair. Boost his recovery.
* Fix Link's speed, buff his Up B, make him floatier.
* Fix Ganondorf's speed issues (less lag), make his recovery less sucky.

 

[Wuss]

We know this how? Sources or it didn't happen.


No, the correct answer is that Sakurai is incompetent. No matter how he tried to balance the game, it's still heavily imbalanced, no matter how you play it. Sakurai did a horrible job of balancing the game no matter from what standpoint you view it!

Name one way where the game is balanced.

well, i could be wrong, but I could've sworn I heard that beta testers found Dedede's chain grab, but nintendo didn't remove it. well anyways, I could be wrong, but it could easily be true, and it would make nintendo look even worse, so why fight it?

As for the other fight, I don't actually play brawl (what a terrible game) so I'm just speculating. I mean it makes sense that because sakurai was just trying to make a fun game (which he failed at anyways) he wouldn't care about balancing the game as much as making the items terribly imbalanced to cover up any imbalance in the characters. Obviously your opinion is that this failed as well, which is fine. I don't really know. I guess I'd like to think that with all of the items on it would be a bit more balanced (in terms of randomness winning).

 

[Yukiwarashi]

I believe I just did.

And it's funny how people who argue this always conveniently forget Kirby exists.

Um...no, you didn't.

And I didn't forget Kirby exists. Kirby is the only one of the three who is balanced. Yes, Sakurai was shy when it came to 64 and Melee. But in Brawl, seeing as how he wouldn't be able to work with MK and DDD for quite some time, he just had to take off his limits and make them as stupid as possible. He definitely played favourites with them.

Metaknight wasn't even a necessary addition. Kirby gets 2 new characters while F-Zero has no new representative? Wolf and Krystal were both popular StarFox requests yet only one of them got in? Pffft...no favourites...

 

[ADHD]

Since I assume you're going by a very strict interpretation of "balanced" here...

Name one way any fighting game is balanced.

They denitely exist.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Another example is the females. Sakurai gave Peach, ZSS, Samus, and Jiggs killing problems. He also made them light! That screams of sexism imo. I mean, Peach is good, but she would be way,way,way better if she had great killers, and wasn't light. So not only do we have bad balancing, we have a sexist game maker too.

Sir, you made most of the females weak. What about Zelda?
Duh, Zelda has magic, therefore even though she is female, she can KO.
facepalm, headesk

....You need to wait til you're not so stoned next time you take a swing on the internet.


This whole thread reeks of stupidity. Sakurai couldn't have done a better job because he was too busy attempting to make the worst game in existence. He's already attempted this before, but he sucks so much he actually made a competitive fighting game.


Sakurai is a ****ing moron, no way around it.

 

[Dark Sonic]

well, i could be wrong, but I could've sworn I heard that beta testers found Dedede's chain grab, but nintendo didn't remove it. well anyways, I could be wrong, but it could easily be true, and it would make nintendo look even worse, so why fight it?

Actually, I think it was us who found the DDD chaingrab when playing the E for All demo.

 

[Wuss]

^ahha, maybe I confused that with something else. Slightly humorous that you consider yourself a part of that, cause I srsly doubt you were there unless you flew from florida just to go.
but in regards to that, was there a place to give complaints about the game at the e for all demo? Cause that might as well be beta testing then...

 

[bobson]

And I didn't forget Kirby exists. Kirby is the only one of the three who is balanced. Yes, Sakurai was shy when it came to 64 and Melee. But in Brawl, seeing as how he wouldn't be able to work with MK and DDD for quite some time, he just had to take off his limits and make them as stupid as possible. He definitely played favourites with them.

Metaknight and King Dedede are powerful because they're newcomers and had less testing than all of the others (the likely unintended chain grab also helps). Same goes for Snake, ROB, Wario, Lucario, etc. Sakurai didn't want to make the newbies seem bad at first glance, so the newcomers in general tend to lean more toward being overpowered than being underpowered.

Metaknight wasn't even a necessary addition. Kirby gets 2 new characters while F-Zero has no new representative? Wolf and Krystal were both popular StarFox requests yet only one of them got in? Pffft...no favourites...

The Kirby series and the Star Fox series are in about the same standing as Nintendo series and have the same amount of representatives. Why should Star Fox get more? King Dedede and Metaknight were popular requests, too. If you want to claim overrepresentation, talk about Pokemon's six playable characters.

 

[Yukiwarashi]

Pokemon is Nintendo's second best selling series behind Mario. Not only that, but NEITHER of the Melee Pokemon representatives are in Brawl, and three of the new Pokemon are forced to be used together.

And you may be right about Kirby and Star Fox being the same importance wise, but that reminds me of another example I forgot: Donkey Kong. The Donkey Kong series is the fourth best selling, right? Yet Metaknight and King Dedede were decided to be more important then another DK rep.

Either way, I still think Sakurai's bias towards Metaknight and Dedede are way too obvious, with him voicing Dedede, giving MK an alternate victory theme, his embarrassingly fanboyish entry on the Dojo for Metaknight and the disgusting amount of Kirby bias in his story mode. It would not surprise me at all if the Kirby characters were altered the least in terms of balance because of Sakurai's bias.

 

[Exia 00]

IMO its not only sakurai's fault xD

 

[Yoshima]

Sakurai clearly plays favorites.

EX:
Wario games ROCK. Make him high. (well who could blame, Wario games are THAT good)

Metrod games suck (intentional typo) Why does Samus always lose her stuff?

I think MG games are top tier! So... Snake is top tier!

But I always thought that F-Zero games sucked. Hard.

I hate Bowser since he captures the Princess. Let's make him slow but strong.
but sir, everyone knows speed with a little power>no speed, alot of power
SHUT UP! I make the game. That reminds me, let's make Ike slow and strong too!

QFT! XD

 

[bobson]

And you may be right about Kirby and Star Fox being the same importance wise, but that reminds me of another example I forgot: Donkey Kong. The Donkey Kong series is the fourth best selling, right? Yet Metaknight and King Dedede were decided to be more important then another DK rep.

Where are you getting these figures? Of the very few people I heard clamoring for another DK character, King K. Rool was the only one. You could go a different route and say Wolf was decided to be more important than another DK rep, or Lucas, or ROB...

giving MK an alternate victory theme

I recall one of the unfinished music files on the Brawl disk being an alternate victory theme for Mewtwo. It's very possible that each character from the same series was intended to have alternate themes early on, but it was dropped later.

As I said before, they're unbalanced because they haven't had the lifespan of one or two games to be considered for balancing as the veterans had, not because Sakurai thought "Hee hee! I'll make two out of my three characters purposely overpowered!"

 

[Yukiwarashi]

Look at Wikipedia's list of best selling game franchises, or Nintendo specific ones.

And I remember seeing that list of characters and victory themes. Isn't it interesting that Metaknight was the only one out of all of those characters that got his own special victory theme in the end? Hmm.

And I think it is fair to say that Sakurai had favourites in Metaknight and Dedede. After all, if I recall correctly at this year's GDC he had a presentation on making Brawl didn't he? And he admitted on stage that he had everything to do with the characters: every frame, every percent, every attack was something that he decided on. So I'm pretty sure he knew about MK in general, and I have no doubt he knew about Dedede's chaingrabs too. I mean, if he knew about wavedashing and left it in Melee, he should've known about Dedede's chaingrab too, which is even simpler to pull off.

 

[bobson]

And I remember seeing that list of characters and victory themes. Isn't it interesting that Metaknight was the only one out of all of those characters that got his own special victory theme in the end? Hmm.

There was a list? Did any of the characters who stayed in the roster have alt themes?

And I think it is fair to say that Sakurai had favourites in Metaknight and Dedede.

It's easy to see the favoritism, but it's a little farfetched to claim that they're powerful fighters just because of that. If Sakurai really had a thing for making his own characters great, Kirby wouldn't've been so bad in Melee.

So I'm pretty sure he knew about MK in general, and I have no doubt he knew about Dedede's chaingrabs too. I mean, if he knew about wavedashing and left it in Melee, he should've known about Dedede's chaingrab too, which is even simpler to pull off.

Really? Do you really think that the guy who added tripping so everyone would have a chance of winning purposely left in a mechanic that allows someone to win by literally standing in one spot and using the same move over and over?

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Um...no, you didn't.

Here's a news flash to everyone: there is no such thing as a balanced fighter. Put down your tinfoil hats and stop trying to look for hidden meanings in the balance or lack thereof in Brawl.

Literacy is fun!

And I didn't forget Kirby exists. Kirby is the only one of the three who is balanced. Yes, Sakurai was shy when it came to 64 and Melee. But in Brawl, seeing as how he wouldn't be able to work with MK and DDD for quite some time, he just had to take off his limits and make them as stupid as possible. He definitely played favourites with them.

So, Sakurai personally overpowered two of the characters from his own series for the lulz, but neglected the MAIN CHARACTER. You're sticking with that, then?

 

[Santi]

In my opinion Sakuri (Sakofsh*t) should of stopped smoking it up in Japan and actually provided a balanced game for us.

 

[ADHD]

Common misconception: Jigglypuff does not have problem killing. All her smashes are great, plus she has rest and rollout.

Rollout is easily countered. Her smashes are as slow as hell, and her wall of pain is beaten by d3s.

 

[Exia 00]

It may be time to chillax xD (I cant believe i said that) I hope you realize that if you wanted a really balanced game there would have to be less characters in the roster (in most cases) He did put alot of emphasis on single player and "extra stuff" so it only makes sence that this happened. Without this extra fat the game would feel incomplete to those who dont spend time playing brawl competatively. If youre waiting for a SSB4 then theres a high chance of getting a roster with less balance. (since megaman will be broken )

 

[kupo15]

Yuna, nintendo did hire competent beta testers, nintendo just didn't listen to any of the problems they encountered.
the correct argument (imo) here is that sakurai wasn't trying to balance the game for the way we play. It's been said that nintendo doesn't "realize" that the smash scene exists. They try to ignore it. For this reason, it can be said that Sakurai didn't do a bad job of balancing this game, he just is ignorant of the better way to play smash. So all in all, sakurai isn't bad a making games, he's just bad at listening to what people want.

How do competent beta testers not see the up B (to the ledge) landing lag glitch that effects a handful of characters? Fixing that would make the game slightly more balanced also. It drives my ganon friend up the wall, not to mention ganons jab being nerfed.

Since I assume you're going by a very strict interpretation of "balanced" here...

Name one way any fighting game is balanced.

No L canceling completely imbalances the game. Ganon cant even do a full hop Fair without sticking his hand in the ground. It would seem that MKs moves are L canceled anyway so allows other characters to cut their lag in half would help them to keep up with MK.

Having certain characters with auto canceled moves makes the game imbalaced not to mention that some characters like Pit have no auto canceled aerials.

Not to mention it should be obvious that changing the Up B mechanics for most of the newcomers imbalances the game also. Being able to do stuff after the Up B is a great advantage over those who dont, (aka, all of the old cast) And it shouldnt shock you that the only characters you see winning a lot are the newcomers because they were made with brawl in mind with the greatest adaptation over the 64 and melee cast.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^ahha, maybe I confused that with something else. Slightly humorous that you consider yourself a part of that, cause I srsly doubt you were there unless you flew from florida just to go.
but in regards to that, was there a place to give complaints about the game at the e for all demo? Cause that might as well be beta testing then...

Well, by "us," I meant the competitive scene (or at least those who went to E for All).

BTW They also had the Demo at *Pound 3*

Though I don't know if there was a place to give official complaints, I'm sure the players were interviewed after playing.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I second that.

I guess a lot of people like Glitchy edge snaps/drops/spikes, lack of inertia/momentum, randomly tripping and stupidly sliding off things.

 

[Yukiwarashi]

Literacy is fun!



So, Sakurai personally overpowered two of the characters from his own series for the lulz, but neglected the MAIN CHARACTER. You're sticking with that, then?

Yeah, I'm sticking to it. After all, Kirby was in two smash games before. In one he was extremely good, and in the next installment he was extremely bad. It's a lot easier to find a balance for Kirby in your third installment, but when you bring two of your other characters from the franchise, then yeah, it's probably tempting to overpower them, especially when you're not going to be working on a Kirby game for a while, if ever again. I honestly feel Sakurai let his personal feelings for the Kirby series get in the way of game play balance.

However, bobson is correct. Sakurai is a lunatic too. I really can't figure out why he wanted to add tripping, but I do believe he was a bit too happy with MK and DDD. And I still believe he knew about Dedede's chaingrabs. Coming across wavedashing in Melee is a hell of a lot more difficult than Dedede's chaingrab.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

110-112% is "very powerful"

I only said rest was very powerful. I said her smashes were great. great =/= very powerful

It's not one of her biggest problems, but she's hardly one of the best KO:ers in the game.

You continue to put words in my mouth. I never said she was one of the best. I only said she doesn't have problems KOing. And she doesn't when compared to: Sheik, Pit, Mario, Sonic and Samus. Jigglypuff's KO power when compared to everybody else's is about average. If there was a tier list for KO power, she'd be near the center of middle.

 

[Vulcan55]

You figured this out today?

 

[Yuna]

well, i could be wrong, but I could've sworn I heard that beta testers found Dedede's chain grab, but nintendo didn't remove it. well anyways, I could be wrong, but it could easily be true, and it would make nintendo look even worse, so why fight it?

So the proof is that you might have heard someone say something? So it's possible hearsay or just conjured up fantasies?

As for the other fight, I don't actually play brawl (what a terrible game) so I'm just speculating. I mean it makes sense that because sakurai was just trying to make a fun game (which he failed at anyways) he wouldn't care about balancing the game as much as making the items terribly imbalanced to cover up any imbalance in the characters. Obviously your opinion is that this failed as well, which is fine. I don't really know. I guess I'd like to think that with all of the items on it would be a bit more balanced (in terms of randomness winning).

Don't speculate.

You continue to put words in my mouth. I never said she was one of the best. I only said she doesn't have problems KOing. And she doesn't when compared to: Sheik, Pit, Mario, Sonic and Samus. Jigglypuff's KO power when compared to everybody else's is about average. If there was a tier list for KO power, she'd be near the center of middle.

Funny, Pit amd Mario can KO at around the same percentages as Jiggz. And Jiggz doesn't have any problems KO:ing when compared to some of the worst KO:ers in the game? Logical!

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Yeah, I'm sticking to it. After all, Kirby was in two smash games before. In one he was extremely good, and in the next installment he was extremely bad. It's a lot easier to find a balance for Kirby in your third installment, but when you bring two of your other characters from the franchise, then yeah, it's probably tempting to overpower them, especially when you're not going to be working on a Kirby game for a while, if ever again. I honestly feel Sakurai let his personal feelings for the Kirby series get in the way of game play balance.

However, bobson is correct. Sakurai is a lunatic too. I really can't figure out why he wanted to add tripping, but I do believe he was a bit too happy with MK and DDD. And I still believe he knew about Dedede's chaingrabs. Coming across wavedashing in Melee is a hell of a lot more difficult than Dedede's chaingrab.

I suppose Sakurai has a personal bias for Snake and Mr. Game & Watch, too?

 

[ScythedBlade]

Soooooo ... you know what would fix this? If Sakurai intended this to be a competitive game ... and if the Nintendo system had a hard drive ...

All we do would update character files .... say maybe they're 20 MB each ... and theres 35 characters ... soo 700 MB lols? That would work so nicely .... no more blaming Sakurai cause then the game could get updated forever ... like real competitive games are