In-depth matchup discussions.

[MrEh]

to be honest, the matchup is winnible, but its horrible.

That's why I've stopped trying to win against MK, and I usually fish for fun things instead. Like doop walk Fsmashes. ^^

 

[Vex Kasrani]

That's why I've stopped trying to win against MK, and I usually fish for fun things instead. Like doop walk Fsmashes. ^^

Anyways, I have a Money Match thats GOING to happen at Pound 4 with Seibriks Dedede, maybe the Dedede players will stop looking at Bowser as a joke now. I did get one Dedede player to respect Bowser, and thats Atomsk. CO18 also seems to know a good amount about Bowser and respects the character also, but most Dedede's think its an easy win, Which I will prove them wrong!

 

[MrEh]

Anyways, I have a Money Match thats GOING to happen at Pound 4 with Seibriks Dedede, maybe the Dedede players will stop looking at Bowser as a joke now. I did get one Dedede player to respect Bowser, and thats Atomsk. CO18 also seems to know a good amount about Bowser and respects the character also, but most Dedede's think its an easy win, Which I will prove them wrong!

Yeah, I noticed you were going to MM him when I saw you on AIM.

Good luck with that by the way. ^^

 

[Cassius.]

Vex you didn't reply to me on AIM :x well I did sign off. Anyways, I wanted to say good luck with playing Seibrik. I know you can do it man :]

Also my opinion on the Wario matchup has changed since I asked you about the Wario MU on AiB...I kinda played a few Warios and I realized how frustrating getting that grab is. A downright pain in the butt man -.- I used to think it was pretty close but it's obviously worse than that ;-;

 

[MrEh]

...I kinda played a few Warios and I realized how frustrating getting that grab is. A downright pain in the butt man -.- I used to think it was pretty close but it's obviously worse than that ;-;

The Wario matchup was never close because of grab releases. It was close because of Bowser's Klaw.


I played Phantom X. And the I think matchup is only slightly in Wario's favor....or it was. Until Wario discovered that he can chaingrab us if he buffers correctly.

 

[Seagull Joe]

well for the wolf matchup beating bowser isnt that hard.60-40 wolf's favor laser spam all day keeps the koopa away. and yes bowser i main also.

 

[shinyspoon42]

lol, idk about 70:30, but if the snake doesn't know how to fight bowser, its in our favor. we beat so much of snake's options. he grenade shields, we side-B. he tilts, we up-B. and the best part, when we side B their recovery and hit their cypher, they fall down and die...HAHAHA.(bowser's evil)

some MU i disagree:
i thought link was in our favor **shruggs**
MK is not 30:70, he is hard, but there are others much harder. (60:40 idk)
Samus 70:30...lol
wario is not that bad...but im not going to fight over points.
zelda...ive never fought a good zelda, why is she 65:35.

one thing though, i thought the ivysaur match-up is bad for us. everytime i throw an attack, i get bullet seeded. if im in the air, bullet seed. if i use fire, bullet seed. if i trip, bullet seed. and then i just gained 40%...unless someone knows something i dont, i thought this MU was hard.

Thought I'd chime in with PT experience.

Ivy is widely considered a joke because of her stupid inability to recover. This MU is not hard, if you are getting bullet seeded when attacking, space your attacks better and the seeds will miss. Really, never go in the air above ivy, bowser can't attack beneath him well and ivy's favorite place to be is beneath an opponent. U-smash, U-air, u-tilt, BS, just avoid jumping over her. Why would they be able to BS the fire? Don't use it in a way that will get you punished. When you trip...well, curse sakurai quietly under your breath. FYI, bulletseed can be smash DI'd and regular DI'd and escaped incredibly easy, and the ending lag on the move means generally you can trade a hit right afterward with your opponent. When fighting Ivy, just use f-tilt, d-tilt, and f-air to get ivy off the stage, then f-air her away and hog the ledge. When you see the noticable start up animation of Up-B, just do a slow get up and watch them fall to their death. Squirtle is the real pain in this MU here.

Oh and your opinions on some of those MUs are just plain wrong.

 

[B!squick]

Wolf isn't that bad. When we talked to the Wolf mains about it, I learned that they rarely use the blaster, and it's not nearly enough to put the match up in Wolf's favor.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Bigserg, can you give me a list of tournament results of your performance with Bowser only, from what I see your probably the best placing Bowser in the US.

 

[GreyClover]

Again the Link match is 60:40 Bowser, powershield projectiles then Koopa Klaw and grab release.

Edit: Link's range and close combat is no match against Bowser's overall misleading range. Link's can keep us at bay but that's still not going to stop Bowser. Powershield and punish your way through. Space your self so that Zair can't hit and bombs are catchable. Once you're inside Link is going to apologize for ever doing so, do as much damage as you can before he can reset the spacing. Due to Bowser's weight Link's will be having a hard time KO'ing. Approach with jabs, tilits, and Koopa hopping. Our defense is just too good for Link to approach with the likes of our grab releases and OoS up B, if Link does approach then punish any missed spaced attacks. Beware of Link's spacing, Zair will annoy you to hellz and back not to mention along with his jabs and smashes. For early damaging grab release chain grabs works pretty good.

Bowser is one of the biggest targets so you'll be taking a lot of damage from projectiles. One very annoying match but it is winnable.

 

[Flayl]

This thread is turning into the exact opposite of what I wanted it to be:

People just spouting off matchup ratios and nobody going in-depth about anything.

edit: except the Wario and Ivysaur posts, those are good.

 

[B!squick]

Ivysaur is easy. Just wait until you can get a grab in then commence the ****. It's a standing infinite too, no need to dash.

 

[bigserg]

Bigserg, can you give me a list of tournament results of your performance with Bowser only, from what I see your probably the best placing Bowser in the US.

in most tournaments i've also used luigi(mostly for diddies, and D3s)

9th out of 40ish
Play and Trade (only Bowser)

16th out of 140+
Gigabits

3rd out of 35
Play and Trade

3rd out of 32
FIU tournament (only Bowser)

either 4th or 5th out of 30ish
Zero Ping

5th out of 50ish
Yasumicon

those are about right. if you also want the threads, let me know.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Wolf isn't that bad. When we talked to the Wolf mains about it, I learned that they rarely use the blaster, and it's not nearly enough to put the match up in Wolf's favor.

thats not true. if a wolf can abuse their blaster to get an advantage on bowser then they'd do it.

 

[Bowser King]

thats not true. if a wolf can abuse their blaster to get an advantage on bowser then they'd do it.

Wolf's blaster is really slow though. The thing with falco's is that it's actually takes times and practice to get used to it and get around it (even then it still is annoying).

Wolf's only can shot on shot at a time making it fairly easy to get around and hard to abuse (from at least a spamming perspective). Even when looked from a mindgame or alternate prespective, very few wolfs will use it because they have better options.

Still, I think we've taken just about everything out of this matchup and we need to move on.

-Bowser King

 

[Flayl]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8167380&postcount=1489

Let me know if you have anything to add on the Mario matchup. I didn't go into our aerials VS his because I'm not entirely sure which ones FAir beats, not to mention all of Mario's aerials except Fair come out quickly so our FAir would be more situational.

Firebreath is useless VS Mario so don't mention it.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

Firebreath obviously isn't useless against Mario. Can't you read Flayl? It's the only move Bowser has with enough range to compete with Mario's godlike fsmash

Anything else Bowser tries to do will just get him fsmashed in the face by Mario!

 

[Flayl]

It's like DTilt Vs Sonic.

FSmash VS Bowser 100:0

 

[Cassius.]

Flayl remember when you were talking about how Falco's UAir might not beat Bowser's NAir? It trades hits on NAir's weak hitbox. It's in my newest match against a Falco. At least I think that's NAirs weakbox...it goes by too fast for me to tell :x

 

[Flayl]

I saw it right now, and I too have a hard time telling if it was the weak hitbox already. Do you have the replay? If you can send it to me I can record it and go through it frame by frame to see what frame you traded hits on.

 

[Cassius.]

Uh yeah. I still got it. Just PM me your wii number and ill give you mine. expect it around tomorrow my time o:

 

[Bowser King]

Firebreath obviously isn't useless against Mario. Can't you read Flayl? It's the only move Bowser has with enough range to compete with Mario's godlike fsmash

Anything else Bowser tries to do will just get him fsmashed in the face by Mario!

If I'm not wrong doesn't mario's forward smash have quite a bit of ending lag?

If so then I wouldn't think of it as something he's going to be using almost at every situation.

-Bowser King

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Just ftilt him to death... thats what I did vs Boss.

 

[Cassius.]

That's what Flayl was saying about Mario's ground game being kinda weak lol. All he really has is his jab but our FTilt obviously outranges that, his UTilt to start UAir strings which FTilt also beats.

If Mario comes in with a BAir [for the sake of it let's just say he actually is approaching, well...fireballs aren't that deadly of a projectile, lol] if we angle FTilt up, does it beat his BAir?

 

[Vex Kasrani]

if we angle FTilt up, does it beat his BAir?

Pretty sure it does.

 

[Bowser King]

I would think so. I'm also sure our ftilt has more range so you could let it out first.

-Bowser King

 

[My Cat Owns]

What character will be done here next? Will it go tier list top to bottom or what OP wants to be next?

 

[Flayl]

We have 4 matchups that already have some information and can be expanded on, I was hoping a Bowser player with plenty of expereince would volunteer to do so:

Wario:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8095502&postcount=18

Pokémon Trainer (Ivysaur):
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8114275&postcount=47

Link:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8115718&postcount=50

Mario:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8167540&postcount=56

 

[Cassius.]

So you basically just want us to make a detailed post about one/all of those matchups? I could do the Wario/Ivysaur one.

Also I might just be God-Awful at approaching/stopping people from camping but I got camped HARD by a Link on SV. On the moving platform. I obviously eventually figured out how to stop it but, I don't know if that was bad on my part for letting it go on for like 4 and a half minutes [I was just shielding LOL], or if that was just plain normal <____________________________<

 

[Flayl]

Flayl remember when you were talking about how Falco's UAir might not beat Bowser's NAir? It trades hits on NAir's weak hitbox. It's in my newest match against a Falco. At least I think that's NAirs weakbox...it goes by too fast for me to tell :x

Just got the frame data, you exchanged hits on frame 19 of Bowser's NAir. Considering the strong hitbox comes out frame 8, that's more than likely the weak version.

Do you play against the Falco often? Try recording a replay where you start with a 70% handicap, have him UTilt you then try to follow up with UAir, while you try to NAir him as late as possible.

Actually, if you find the NAir to beat it consistently, then I don't even have to do frame data.

 

[B!squick]

Falco falls too fast to be able to reliably read the opponent and react according. So depending on how close I am to the ground, I just air dodge.

 

[Bowser King]

Falco falls too fast to be able to reliably read the opponent and react according. So depending on how close I am to the ground, I just air dodge.

Agreed. I'd rather just try to get out of there then hope a nair lands.

-Bowser King

 

[GreenFox]

It's pretty obvious that the falco matchup is around 60:40 in falcos favor bowsers big hitboxes chaingrab and lazers we've been on the that match up for a month let's move on now

 

[Cassius.]

It's not 40:60, lol. 55:45 seriously. I'm willing to call it even because Falco really is not that difficult. He's not that bad of a matchup to be considered a disadvantage IMO.

 

[Flayl]

This thread isn't about ratios, how many times am I going to have to explain that?

Also I'm pretty disappointed nobody has written up anything yet.

 

[GreenFox]

This thread isn't about ratios, how many times am I going to have to explain that?

Also I'm pretty disappointed nobody has written up anything yet.

Exactly its about summaries which you posted one so like I said lets move on to a new character we've been on the same one for a month Limit Falco is definitely at a big advantage he pretty much gets a guaranteed 40% in the beginning of the game you cant approach or u'll get cged to dair if you don't approach you'll get lazered if falco plays his camping game with lazer's phantasm and dthrows Falco makes it a very hard time on bowser

 

[My Cat Owns]

I guess with falco, you'd already have to be pretty good at powershielding in order to approach. With his short hop double laser (SHDL) both lasers will hit whether you crouch or not, making the MU already pretty bad. On top of that, upon an approach, falco's CG can run you as high as 60% and if he gets you to the edge with it, a SHDair from him means instant death for you (bowsers vertical recovery and falco's pseudo-spike).

Powershield to approach but if you're below 50% try to space away from grabbing range (I know it's hard when he has lasers, but the CG is deadly. Look up SK92's falco if you don't believe me). Once you are above CG range, you really just need to stay close. Bair is a good way to gimp his predicatble recovery (It's 100% horizantal and goes about halfway through FD). Bowser shouldn't really be offstage to gimp recoveries, but if you see falco trying to phantasm onto the stage, if you're quick enough you can get out some firebreath and DI it downwards. His vertical recovery is pretty much garbage and easy to hog, so try to if he gets below the stage.

I probably missed a plethora of stuff, just tell me if there's anything you need me to go over cause I'm kind of in a hurry right now.

 

[Flayl]

Can you at least read the first post...

 

[My Cat Owns]

Someone brought up the Falco matchup so I posted what I thought about it. I see nothing wrong there.

 

[mars16]

Bowser is a good matchup agianst jugglypuff.