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In-depth matchup discussions.

Flayl

Smash Hero
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MrEh refused to post summaries in the stickied matchups threads and I personally feel there are some matchup ratios that are plain wrong. So in order to develop our knowledge further, both for newcomers and veterans alike (seeing how to fight someone helps a lot better than knowing if we're at a disadvantage or not, which is 75% of the time lol), I decided to create this thread.

The end goal of this thread will be to have information like this post: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7556169#post7556169 for every character (that matters). Okay, a bit shorter ;)

There is no order for this, as knowledge often doesn't come when you want it to.

Falco :falco:

Your main tools in this matchup will be your jab and follow-ups, and depending on the stage, your aerial klaw.

Bowser has a very nice chaingrab on Falco that can end in death, even at low %s. You can release chaingrab him from both ground and air release. I recommend pummeling once for every 20-25% he has and then wait for him to release. This way, you will react faster to his release, this is safer than mashing pummel to force a ground release chaingrab. If your reaction speed is above average feel free to pummel as often as you can.

However, a Falco that knows his stuff will very rarely be grabbed by a Bowser, so do not rely on the chaingrab to win the match for you. This means don't pick stages like Final Destination or Halberd, they will hurt you more than benefit you.

To end a chaingrab with a killing move, chaingrab Falco to the edge of the stage then follow up with an offstage FAir -> edgehog or suicide Klaw. The Falco may survive the FAir -> edgehog attempt if he DI's upward, this needs to be tested. You can kill Falco from a grab release at ~100% with DTilt, less depending on how close to the edge you are. The most effective way to do this is, while mashing A to pummel, slowly tilt the control stick down.

If you're behind in lives and the Falco DI's the offstage FAir correctly, consider Dthrow'ing off the ledge and using firebreath. He will take massive damage by DI'ing through the fire, so he may attempt to drop below the stage and firebird to the ledge. This is only possible if Bowser is far enough from the ledge. Try to edge-hug if you see him drop out of the fire, testing should be done to see if Bowser can get there in time. Edge-hug by dashing off the stage and doing a quick quarter circle motion towards the stage.

Do not approach Falco until 40%. This will protect you from a chaingrab to the ledge -> DAir spike or Gatling combo (explained below), which will easily put you in the 50's%. During the initial part of the stock bait the opponent to fall into aerial klaws by klaw hopping around on the available platforms. If no platforms are available or if they do not suffice to keep you away from Falco's lasers, start your power-sheilding walk approach, explained below. In this phase it's ok to get hit by lasers if it means you won't get chaingrabbed.

The spike is techable, by the way. Tech the spike by Smash DI'ing into the stage and pressing shield at the right time. An easier way to survive the spike at early percentages is by saving your double jump and double jumping into fortress right after the spike. It is possible that you can be edge-hogged when attempting this.

Later in your stock, approach Falco by walking and power-sheilding or klaw hopping on platforms. Jump into a grounded shield if you are very far from Falco, as Bowser's walk is really slow. Capable Falcos will be Short Hop Double Laser'ing (SHDL for short), which allows them to follow up their second laser with almost non-existant landing lag. Adapt your sheild tapping to the rythym of his lasers.

Once you get close enough, several things may occur. The Falco may attempt to illusion through you and start SHDL'ing on the other side of the stage, he might try to use his reflector on you, or he might try to combo you. Only the first two options outrange your Jab, so space wisely. For the illusion option, shield it and quickly estimate if you can punish the ending animation with FTilt. Make this estimation based on where he started the illusion, not on where he lands, as that would be too late. If the Falco is too far, attempt to dash->fortress or klaw before he gets into the SHDL rythym again. If he tries to shine you (this means use the reflector), shield it (at this range don't just tap the shield button, hold it for a bit) and punish with FTilt or a Dash grab.

If he sees you're holding your shield at Shine range, he may try to dash grab you. Counter with an jump canceled UpB Out of Shield (hereon referred to as UpB OoS). This also applies if he tries to combo you.

If he makes a wrong move or tries to laser you that close, drop your shield and Jab him. Depending on how close he is, try to follow-up your first Jab with either a Klaw or a FTilt.

When Klaw hopping against Falco, beware his BAir and his USmash. I recommend fighting against a friend to figure out the best angles of approach and the zones covered by Falco's attacks. Grabbing Falco's outstretched leg with a klaw is very satisfying.

Falco is one of the few characters that has combos in Brawl, here is a list of the ones I know of:
NAir -> UTilt
NAir -> Grab
First Jab -> Shine
First Jab -> Grab
Dash Attack -> USmash (Gatling combo)
DThrow -> DAir
DThrow -> Shine (outperformed by DAir)
DThrow -> U-smash (boost smash)
DThrow -> Gatling Combo

As you can see the combo that has the most initial range is Dash Attack -> USmash. If you're spacing correctly and avoid laggy moves you should rarely be hit by the others.

At the end of your stock, Falco will use 3 methods to attempt to kill you: FSmash, UAir or send you offstage and spike you/intercept your recovery with BAir.

To survive FSmash better, DI upwards and towards the stage. His FSmash has an incredbily huge hitbox, most of which is invisible, so I advise getting used to that. It also reaches behind him.

You should be prepared for UAirs when you're in the air at high percentages. Do not DI into Falco, try to land as far as possible, bomb the ledge if he can't intercept. You can occasionally bait him into attempting to UAir you and hit him with a Bowser Bomb, which halts you in midair. Do not do this often. NAir may or may not beat Falco's UAir, this needs testing.

Your most reliable way to kill Falco will be either by klaw'ing him, UTilting him if he is on a platform or FTilt'ing him off the stage and edge-guard with firebreath/FAir.

Whenever you successfully send Falco off stage below kill %s, firebreath at an angle that covers both the ledge and the possibility of him illusioning through Bowser's head. If Falco allows himself to drift too low below the stage, try to edge-hug him.

Spaced FAirs beats, horizontally, all of Falco's aerials except BAir. Positioning yourself slightly below Falco allows your FAir to bypass his BAir.

Stages to strike/ban: Final Destination, Smashville/ Jungle Japes, Final Destination
Stages to counterpick: Brinstar, Lylat Cruise

Conclusion: Falco controls the match, Bowser relies heavily on platforms and Falco's mistakes to do any damage. Although once he does make a mistake, it can lead to a stock or heavy damage. Advantage to Falco.
 

The Brown Scourge

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Bowsers nair will beat out most of foxs air attacks including uair. Do u think bowser nair will beat out falcos uair? If so Yay!!!!! Could someone test this
 

King Funk

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Great guide, I'm just adding my opinions on it to help you rethink some of the parts.

___________________________________________________________________

Falco :falco:

If you're behind in lives and the Falco DI's the offstage FAir correctly, consider Dthrow'ing off the ledge and using firebreath. The Falco will have no option but to DI into the fire and take massive damage. --> can't Falco just let himself drop, use firebird and auto-sweep the ledge?

Do not approach Falco until 40% (number not certain). This will protect you from a chaingrab to the ledge -> DAir spike, or a chaingrab --> gatling combo which will both easily put you in the 50-60%. During the initial part of the stock bait the opponent to fall into aerial klaws by klaw hopping around on the available platforms. If no platforms are available or if they do not suffice to keep you away from Falco's lasers, start your power-sheilding walk approach, explained below. In this phase it's ok to get hit by lasers if it means you won't get chaingrabbed. --> more like, don't get hit by lasers at short-mid range because it may lead into a chaingrab

The spike is techable, by the way. Tech the spike by Smash DI'ing into the stage and pressing shield at the right time. An easier way to survive the spike at early percentages is by saving your double jump and double jumping into fortress right after the spike. --> risky because it can be edgehogged.

Once you get close enough, several things may occur. The Falco may attempt to illusion through you and start SHDL'ing on the other side of the stage, he might try to use his reflector on you (too risky because it can be shieldgrabbed/avoided very easily, and punished brutally for that) or he might try to combo you.

When Klaw hopping against Falco, beware his BAir and his USmash. If Bowser klaw hops too much, a good Falco player might predict where Bowser lands and punish him with grab. I recommend fighting against a friend to figure out the best angles of approach and the zones covered by Falco's attacks. Grabbing Falco's outstretched leg with a klaw is very satisfying. Pivot grabbing Bowser is funnier. ^^

Falco is one of the few characters that has combos in Brawl, here is a list of the ones I know of:
NAir -> UTilt
NAir -> Grab
First Jab -> Shine
First Jab -> Grab
Gatling combo (Dash Attack -> USmash)
DThrow -> U-smash (boost smash)
D-Throw -> Dair
DThrow -> Gatling Combo

As you can see the combo that has the most initial range is Dash Attack -> USmash. If you're spacing correctly and avoid laggy moves you should rarely be hit by the others.

At the end of your stock, Falco will use principally (unless you include unlikely kill moves like Dair and Uair) 3 methods to attempt to kill you: FSmash, U-Smash, Bair, UAir (dangerous considering Bowser can down-b and maybe kill a Falco attempting UAir) or send you offstage and spike you (fortress outprioritizes Dair, Falcos would rather use Bair to gimp).

Whenever you successfully send Falco off stage below kill %s, firebreath at an angle that covers both the ledge and the possibility of him illusioning through Bowser's head. If Falco is below the stage, edgehogging him is a good option considering firebird is a weak recovery tool.

Stages to strike/ban: Final Destination, Yoshi's Island / Jungle Japes
Stages to counterpick: Battlefield, Brinstar, Lylat Cruise

Conclusion: Falco controls the match, Bowser relies heavily on platforms and Falco's mistakes to do any damage. Although once he does make a mistake, it can lead to a stock or heavy damage. Advantage to Falco. 55-45 to 60-40 Falco.

_________________________________________________________________

The parts I left out of your guide are the ones where I have nothing to point out.
 

Flayl

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Edited in:

Suggestion to try out NAir VS Falco's UAir
Falco DI'ing outward of firebreath offstage and possible response
Gatling combo finisher for Falco's chaingrab
Approaching magic number
Risk of edgehog for not Smash DI'ing Falco's spike
Gatling combo terminology and other combos
BAir gimp
Edge hug against below stage Falco


Note: That's what I meant with the lasers.
Can't shieldgrab reflector if it's outside jab range.
Being predictable with Klaw is player error, almost anything that gets too predictable can be punished.
DownB only works as a countermeasure when it surprises the other player. Bowser is the easiest character to juggle/UAir in the game.
Falco's USmash is not very strong and will not kill Bowser until really high %s.
Although UAir is not that strong either, Falco can set up for a high UAir, as he jumps pretty high.
BAir wil lalso not kill Bowser until really high percentages.
Falco can spike Bowser out of the fortress after the first few frames.
I'ts worse than 40-60 IMO, but I'm not going to use matchup ratios here.
 

King Funk

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Falco's USmash is not very strong and will not kill Bowser until really high %s.
Well 130-140%, since Bowser is a heavyweight and can pack quite a lot of punch. I think that amount should be enough. It's a decent kill move, and should be included among the most used kill moves by Falco.
 

Cassius.

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Um, basically I was thinking, if we shouldn't approach Falco if we're below 40% [I'm only going by what you said btw, I know what to do with Falcos I think] should we just take the lasers until we get up to 40%ish [aka, let him camp us] and then start making a move or what?

If the Falco sees through that and tries to come at us, I guess we just wall him with klaw's and fortresses :L

But anyways, I honestly think Bowser vs Falco can't be nothing worse than 40-60. It's really not that bad IMO.
 

Daffy

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Im not sure why I've started to main Bowser and I've found falco gets predictable on when he attempts to try to chain grab so I've been timing it into a d-smash which seems to works. The timing the D-smash thing for his grab attempt is not as easy as it sounds though cause the start up for the D-smash is a little slower than I'd like. .Falcos lasers are the biggest problem to me, cause I feel a smart Falco player relizes that he doesn't truly have priority once I get close on the airial game. I'm finding N-air great for stages with ledges like battlefield I keep going underneath the ledge quickly following up with a N-air to fortress works nicely when my opponents underneath me.

this suggestion of yours I like and am going to have to remeber that. If he sees you're holding your shield at Shine range, he may try to dash grab you. Counter with an jump canceled UpB Out of Shield (hereon referred to as UpB OoS). This also applies if he tries to combo you. Cause this is defintally a mind game scenario that happens a lot and applies to more than just falco.
 

Jonas

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If we could powershield consistently, which, frankly, isn't THAT hard in Brawl, we wouldn't really need to worry about them lazors
 

Bowser King

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I have to agree here. Powershielding is fairly simple so falco's lazers become less of a threat. I still stand by the statement of it being 55-45 with 60-40 at worst. What is there other then the CG that makes this matchup bad?

As for the actual discussion I think that's pretty much all too it.

@Mech

If I'm not wrong I think wario's chaingrab was debunked.

-:bowser:Bowser King
 

Flayl

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Um, basically I was thinking, if we shouldn't approach Falco if we're below 40% [I'm only going by what you said btw, I know what to do with Falcos I think] should we just take the lasers until we get up to 40%ish [aka, let him camp us] and then start making a move or what?
Sort of, just don't risk getting grabbed. That's why I said klaw hop on the platforms if you can. If you're playing on a stage like Final Destination might as well just approach right away. Just don't get grabbed near the edge.

If the Falco sees through that and tries to come at us, I guess we just wall him with klaw's and fortresses :L
That's the idea.

But anyways, I honestly think Bowser vs Falco can't be nothing worse than 40-60. It's really not that bad IMO.
I really disagree. Falco is not getting grabbed.
 

B!squick

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I've noticed the hitbox on the shine doesn't last as long as you'd think. Like, it only works until it's fully extended. I've used Bowser's epic air speed to just AD past and behind it to punish.
 

Flayl

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I never said it lasted long, but it comes out quick, meaning if you were just power-shielding the lasers you would get hit if he used it right after the second "silent" laser.
 

Flayl

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Alright over on AiB we're actually discussing the match-up but it's been like 50 years since I've paid attention to Brawl.

Wario CG's Boozer to death? We can't buffer a Fortress to escape?
I'm gonna go with the what the Wario boards say that if it's buffered correctly, it's unescapable until 140%.
 

MechaBoozer20XX

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Yeah the fact that they both 0-death each other, (IIRC)

would put this in the 60-40 range, possibly worse with how hard it is to actually grab Wario.
Plus supposedly they can space dairs to not get hit by our Up-B OOS. = [

Really they can't hit each other, or get grabbed, but Wario just outclasses Bowser in these regards.

Bowser can't grab Wario, Wario can't (safely) grab Bowser.

He'll eat an OOS, and if he trys to bite>grab>stock and you see it coming you get grab>stock

When I think about it Bowser seems more and more like Wario.
 

Cassius.

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LOL I know I'm extremely slow, but it never crossed my mind to try a Klawhopped AD before. As use-less/ful as it sounds, I only figured it out like two weeks ago :x Lol you can call me dumb, I'm surprised I never really figured that out/watched videos moar lul

BTW I asked Vex if I could post his MU chart on here just for debate's sake...maybe it could go in the OP. Or...Vex could just post it himself, but since I'm here now I guess I could do it <_<

Uh from what I'm looking at now I basically agree with all of it minus Samus and I question as to why he put Wario as 65-35 Wario. He put the Samus MU as 70-30 Samus' favor. I'm just gonna say with projectile overload it'd probably be bad, but definitely not 70-30 bad.

He put Snake as even, because he's working on some wizz theorycraft (so he says... ;3), and he also put MK as 30-70 MK's favor...honestly I really don't know what to say on the MK matchup, I get ***** one game and then I do really good the next. It's really erratic :L

But yeah, when I get the OK from Vex, or if he posts it before me <_<, I'll update this post.
 

Flayl

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The Samus MU isn't bad because of projectiles, it's bad because of her ZAir. Missiles are the slowest projectile in the game, you can Jab them and charged shot can be FTilt'ed on reaction if you're far away enough, it's really rather predictable when Samus is going to use it anyway.
 

bigserg

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??? How is the Samus MU 70-30? yes she can camp hard and has Z-air, but she can't kill. d-tilt,f-smash...maybe u-tilt and the charged shot. All are easily avoided, except maybe d-tilt. Trust me i played Samus for a while and besides the occasional spike, Samus can't kill...and its rather easy seeing the Z-air coming. 60-40 Samus IMO. (oh and b-air)
 

Cassius.

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About the 70-30 bull that's what I was saying lmao it's really not that difficult.

Here, I'll post the raw list from his AiB post. You [We] can discuss it I suppose.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bowser's Matchups
posted to the public at 11:32 PM on Tuesday Aug 11, 2009
Ganon 65:35
Ivysaur 65:35

Falcon 60:40
Jigglypuff 60:40

Snake 50:50 Potentially 55:45 based on theorycraft I'm working on

Lucas 50:50
Ness 50:50
Mario 50:50
Link 50:50
Charizard 50:50
Wolf 50:50
Sonic 50:50

Falco 45:55
Fox 45:55
Donkey Kong 45:55
Peach 45:55
Luigi 45:55
ROB 45:55
Ike 45:55
Yoshi 45:55
Sheik 45:55

GnW 40:60
Dedede 40:60
Kirby 40:60
Lucario 40:60
Marth 40:60
Toon Link 40:60
Pit 40:60
Squirtle 40:60
ZSS 40:60

Olimar 35:65
Pikachu 35:65
Wario 35:65
Zelda 35:65
Diddy 35:65

Meta Knight 30:70
Samus 30:70
Ice Climber's 20:80
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

See, I agree on all of that except for Samus, Wario and MK, but I'd rather not explain MK lol. Wario I feel really isn't that bad of a matchup for Bowser, and Samus...well we kinda took bites at it already.
 

Flayl

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I disagree on Snake, Lucas, Link, Wolf, Falco, R.O.B. and Samus

Have no clue about Yoshi, ZSS and IC's, althought the latter is easy for me to theorize why.
 

Vex Kasrani

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Thats just my opinion on his matchups, feel free to disagree, I need to play the samus matchup more, it just seems really hard and annoying even though I'm a master at powershielding.

Yes I did take a game off of Mew2king in the past with Bowser but I cannot do so now. He has learned the matchup and taking more then 1 stock has gotten much harder.

I'm pretty sure everybody knows by now that I try to overrate Bowser to make him seem more tournament viable then he actually is by continually saying he could be high tier, so I'm not giving you numbers based off of my difficulty in matchups are much as overall what the characters can do to each other.

I've become passionate for this character and have already decided to go all Bowser much more then in the past. I've even decided to go to specific character boards and challenge any main of that character, like this one

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244508
 

Cassius.

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Lol Vex I feel ya ._. honestly I don't really enjoy using anyone as much as I do Bowser, and I think it's fine to overrate your main lol. Bowser IMO should most def be higher than he is now :l

But uh all I can say is just keep representing Bowser :] We all try, I think o-o
 

bigserg

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The Bowser Snake match up is 70:30 Bowser's favor, how many times must I tell you guys this?
lol, idk about 70:30, but if the snake doesn't know how to fight bowser, its in our favor. we beat so much of snake's options. he grenade shields, we side-B. he tilts, we up-B. and the best part, when we side B their recovery and hit their cypher, they fall down and die...HAHAHA.(bowser's evil)

some MU i disagree:
i thought link was in our favor **shruggs**
MK is not 30:70, he is hard, but there are others much harder. (60:40 idk)
Samus 70:30...lol
wario is not that bad...but im not going to fight over points.
zelda...ive never fought a good zelda, why is she 65:35.

one thing though, i thought the ivysaur match-up is bad for us. everytime i throw an attack, i get bullet seeded. if im in the air, bullet seed. if i use fire, bullet seed. if i trip, bullet seed. and then i just gained 40%...unless someone knows something i dont, i thought this MU was hard.
 

Flayl

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Fire is ironically pretty useless versus ivysaur. I just read Bullet seed has invicibility frames 1-3 and hitbox out on 4.

This just means you have to space more carefully, you can still easily Jab ivysaur without getting hit by bullet seed. Not enough to convince me the MU is bad.

On the other hand, I've read Snake can 0-death Olimar with Dthrow, and there is a possibility this happens to Bowser too, since Sakurai decided Bowser should have the second worst roll frames in the game (Samus has the worst).
 

Cassius.

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Wait, so snake 0-deaths Oli because his roll frames are crappy? wtf... <_<
 

Flayl

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Wait, so snake 0-deaths Oli because his roll frames are crappy? wtf... <_<
His roll distance is really crappy, and his roll frames are below average too. I have no idea if our roll is good lengthwise, but I do know it's the second worst in terms of duration.
 

MrEh

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Matchup numbers are wrong good sir.


MK: 45-55/40-60
Snake: 40-60
Wario: 35-65
Falco: 45-55
Diddy: 30-70
Dedede: 40-60
Marth: 40-60
Game and Watch: 40-60
Pikachu: 40-60
Olimar: 30-70
Ice Climbers: lol
ROB: 40-60
Kirby: 40-60
Lucario: 45-55
ZSS: 45-55
Toon Link: 40-60
Pit: 40-60
DK: 40-60
Peach: 40-60
Luigi: 45-55
Fox: 50-50
Wolf: 45-55
Sonic: 50-50
Sheik: 50-50
Zelda: 40-60
PT: 50-50
Squirtle: 55-45
Ivysaur: 55-45
Charizard: 50-50
Ike: 50-50
Lucas: 50-50
Mario: 50-50
Ness: 50-50
Yoshi: 40-60
Samus: 40-60
Jigglypuff: 50-50
Captain Falcon: 60-40
Link: 50-50
Ganondorf: 60-40

I like these better.
 

Vex Kasrani

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I really don't think any Bowsers on these boards have fought any amazing Metaknights to be honest, the matchup is winnible, but its horrible.

:083:
 
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