IMPULSE 2012 SSB64 tournament results - Toronto

[King Funk]

Wait so is the "new definition" of "gay" made up too?

 

[Surri-Sama]

lol best not to bother honestly...im done anyways

 

[prisonchild]

i think its fair to say that sheermadness reserves his right to complain openly about camping.


whether you think thats a right in tournament talk is another discussion (which will inevitably blow up and go off topic).


sorry what were we talking about again? the semantics behind the word scrub?

 

[SheerMadness]

I think it's fair to say that anyone has the right to openly hate on camping without being labeled a scrub.

Because there's simply no evidence to back up that link.

 

[Froski]

I went through a whole bag of popcorn reading all of this. VERY entertaining

Spoiler

Amuse me more!

 

[prisonchild]

scrub mentality perhaps, in regards to complaining about camping during tournament play


the whole topic has grown quite tedious though

 

[ballin4life]

Then they're using a made up definition of the word scrub. The only definitions I can find that make any sense in the context of this discussion are:

adjective
7.
small, undersized, or stunted.
8.
inferior or insignificant.


And I think I've given examples that prove there's no real correlation between hating camping and a player who is stunted, inferior, or insignificant. At least, nobody has been able to argue against it thus far.

So I don't wanna hear any more scrub***s (PWNED) talk about camping hate and scrubs like they're somehow related. =]


On a sad note this argument has been the fun point of my day. I need to get the **** out of the house (but it's all rainey and **** =[).

I don't think dictionary definitions reign on the internet lol. I'm just telling you what they mean when they say "scrub". A semantic debate is pointless.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I went through a whole bag of popcorn reading all of this. VERY entertaining

Spoiler

Amuse me more!

What this person said.

First off, to anyone saying that YBOMBB is over his head or he still is not a good ssb64er, play him offline. He does not have to prove anything since he won the tournament.

Also, why do people complain about camping again? Play to win. I dislike camping and I play aggro as s*** but I don't mind others camping as it is a legitimate strategy. Just look at the Isai vs. Gerson matches which are the highest level matches between Chile and the United States but they are 5-10 minutes long. It might be boring but it is required for many matchups. Finally, if you can't adjust to people camping and you dislike it so much, stop playing. On another note, everyone camps in some way or another. No one rushes recklessly without caring and everyone tries to space each other out as one hit can lead to death or a very bad position in this game or any other smash game.

And yes, commentators are going to complain about campy matches even if they personally fine with camping because it is:

A: Not fun to commentate as nothing happens.
B: Not fun to watch as nothing happens
C: Not fun to stream as nothing happens.

Spoiler

Oh, one more thing, M2K played ssb64 to camp...so, I guess he was getting practice for his brawl matches.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Sheer, just because you haven't heard that definition before doesn't mean that its made up.
Scrub has been used to describe people who impose pointless limitations on themselves for years.

 

[SheerMadness]

Typical Koro coming into the discussion late and essentially just summing up what everyone else has already said.

Lol no one has really even challenged my point this whole thread. Were not even arguing semantics, because no one has even come out and said "I disagree with your point".

There's no correlation between hating camping and being a scrub in smash.

It seems as though everyone agrees with my point but still want to argue with me about other things.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Everyone agrees with your point, doesn't matter.

I could go into a religious debate and say "MY POINT IS THAT THE BIBLE SAYS GOD EXISTS". Then walk away as if I've somehow proved... something... That'd be stupid though.

You have a scrub (Sirlin's definition) mentality because of your refusal to play against hard campers. That is all anyone was saying - Take what you will from that.

 

[SheerMadness]

What I take from this made up "scrub mentality" thing is that it contradicts itself in the smash world.

Mango and PP have openly hated on camping just as I have. Yet they're two of the top 3 melee players in the world. If you're telling me that two of the top 3 melee players in the world have a scrub mindset (they're limiting themselves by refusing to camp) then the legitimacy of this made up definition is all the more comical.

 

[ballin4life]

There's no correlation between hating camping and being a scrub in smash.

Under the definition others have been using I disagree, and presumably those others disagree as well.

Imagine someone who hates grabs or fox lasers. They might play your Fox and say "wow i don't like playing against this person because all he does is laser and grab". That's their choice obviously. I mean both of those moves are pretty cheap right? In the end it's all for fun, sure. I agree with that.

But basically, Sirlin's definition of "scrub" is a person who complains about a tactic when he can't beat it.


Completely unrelated note: Even under the scrub = bad player definition I think there's likely a CORRELATION between disliking camping and being a scrub. If camping is such a good strat then people who camp are more likely to be good - thus the average person who accepts camping will likely be better than the average person who hates camping. Even if camping isn't a very good strat there's probably a strong correlation between people who hate camping and people who can't beat campers - and if camping is a bad strat and you can't beat a bad strat then you're not very good.

None of the above note has much to do with the conversation in this thread since people were using a completely different definition of the word "scrub".

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

Hating the person or char or strategy will put u at an enourmous disadvantage.
which will in turn cause u to lose more often
my own casual definition
scrub: a person not willing to sacrifice fun to increase their chances of winning
scrub is in the eye of the beholder lol

 

[Grim Tuesday]

What I take from this made up "scrub mentality" thing is that it contradicts itself in the smash world.

Mango and PP have openly hated on camping just as I have. Yet they're two of the top 3 melee players in the world. If you're telling me that two of the top 3 melee players in the world have a scrub mindset (they're limiting themselves by refusing to camp) then the legitimacy of this made up definition is all the more comical.

Did you read my post or did you read what you wanted to hear and could counter?

Mango and PP have never flat out refused to play against someone because they camp.

 

[SheerMadness]

But basically, Sirlin's definition of "scrub" is a person who complains about a tactic when he can't beat it.

That's not true (yes I finally read the article lol). His exact definition appears to be this:

A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win.

And that simply does not prove to be true in the smash world. Mango and PP have won the vast majority of the highest level smash tourneys since 2008 (Armada has won a couple in the past year or two also. Oh hbox has won a couple since 2008 too). They don't camp and they've openly hated on the idea of it. Essentially according to this made up definition they're limiting themselves and not playing to win.

Yet they win almost every major tourney in the melee scene.

Sorry but the "scrub mentality" clearly contradicts itself in the smash world.

Mango and PP have never flat out refused to play against someone because they camp.

I'm assuming you're talking about in tourney because you can't possibly know their entire history regarding friendlies.

And I've never refused to play against someone because they camp either (in tourney). Nor does the potential of campers stop me from entering tourneys. But I will avoid playing with them casually.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

In regards to Armada/PP/HBox - The majority of Melee players would say that they do play defensively and are playing to win. Melee isn't as broken as 64 (well, 64 with Castle legal) so as to make running away the best strategy.

Mango, on the other hand, is a scrub because he often intentionally plays with the goal of entertaining the audience. Doesn't really matter, because Mango not playing entirely to win is still better than the vast majority of Melee players.

Scrub mentality doesn't contradict itself unless you are still thinking of scrub as meaning "bad player" which is an entirely different definition.

-----

When asked if you would forfeit against Suri in tourney, you didn't say no. Kind-of gave a scrubby impression.

 

[SheerMadness]

Scrub mentality doesn't contradict itself unless you are still thinking of scrub as meaning "bad player" which is an entirely different definition.

How does it not? Mango alone contradicts the scrub mentality theory in smash.

He hates on camping and refuses to do it himself, thus he's "limiting" himself and not playing to win according to Sirlin's definition.

Yet he's won far and away the most major melee tourneys in the world since 2008. So according to Sirlin he's not playing to win, and yet he wins anyway.

When asked if you would forfeit against Suri in tourney, you didn't say no. Kind-of gave a scrubby impression.

Hmmm I believe I said "when will i ever have to play surri?". Shouldn't that "have" give you the impression that I would play him If I had to?

If I refused to ever play Surri again in any setting wouldn't I have just come out and said that I would never join a tourney he was in?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

"He isn't playing to win, but he wins anyway" isn't an oxymoron.

 

[Morin0]

It just so happens that Mango's ****ing around is still a higher level than someone's "play to win" attitude

LOL

 

[Sangoku]

Couldn't resist any longer to post this:

 

[SheerMadness]

Really?

So Mango being the best melee player in the world over the past 5 years, despite having a "scrub mentality", isn't the least bit contradictory?

Do you think Sirlin would agree that some players are just so good that they can be the best in the world despite having a scrub mentality? I don't think he would, but I could be wrong. It would be interesting to find out.

I think if we were to ask mango if he has a play to win mentality I think he'd say yes, but while still having fun. Thus one can have a play to win mentality, despite hating camping, and still be a top player in the world. That's just my guess on his mentality though.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yes, it is possible to be the best player in the world with a scrub mentality.
I don't really care what Sirlin thinks, I'm just going by a definition he says he agrees with.
It also doesn't really matter what Mango thinks.

The definition is there and it isn't hard to see what falls under it. I don't know what you're arguing about.

 

[SheerMadness]

It's quite simple really.

You're saying the best melee player in the world over the past 5 years has a scrub mentatlity. A scrub mentality, according to Sirlin, means that you don't play to win.

Also according to Sirlin, a scrub must shed his web of mental rules that keep him from truly playing to win, in order to reach the next level.

So how can mango, having a scrub mentality, ever have reached the top if he never shed his scrub mentality?

How is that not contradictory? Me thinks you're arguing over Sirlin's definition without having fully read his article.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If Mango played to win completely he would probably be at a higher level.
Hell, his period of dominance was when he did play to win (using Jigglypuff). You know he isn't the world champ at the moment, right?

Having a scrub mentality is a handicap. This is what Sirlin says, this is what I'm saying. You are taking that and adding a little extra bit on the end - "Having a scrub mentality is a handicap that cannot be overcome by being amazing in other areas".

 

[SheerMadness]

Actually that's exactly what he's saying. Read the article again.

He pretty clearly says that scrub mentality is a handicap, and you won't reach the next level of play until you ditch that mentality.

Nowhere in the article does he suggest that it's possible to overcome scrub mentality by simply being skilled in other areas of the game. He's saying the only way to overcome the scrub mentality is to ditch the mentality completely, not by being good in other areas.

You can't have it both ways. If mango actually doesn't play to win then he contradicts scrub mentality.

And to say that someone doesn't play to win just because they dislike camping and refuse to do it themselves is ridiculous too. So going all the way back to my original point:

There's no correlation between hating camping and being a scrub in smash (whether it be the real definition of scrub or Sirlin's made up definition).

Mango alone contradicts both definitions.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

A scrub is someone who limits themselves on purpose.
Mango does that.

You are reading waaaay too far into this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyfLER3Z0-Q

I'm out.

 

[ballin4life]

A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win.

And that simply does not prove to be true in the smash world. Mango and PP have won the vast majority of the highest level smash tourneys since 2008 (Armada has won a couple in the past year or two also. Oh hbox has won a couple since 2008 too). They don't camp and they've openly hated on the idea of it. Essentially according to this made up definition they're limiting themselves and not playing to win.

Yet they win almost every major tourney in the melee scene.

Sorry but the "scrub mentality" clearly contradicts itself in the smash world.

1) "A scrub does not play to win" - Mango and PP apparently win. Ok, it's possible that a player wins without "playing to win" but I think that's more difficult to determine than just saying "well they would win 99.9% of the time rather than 99% if only they just camped"

2) Is camping even that good in Melee? I never got that impression (especially since many of the stages are small). But what do I know?

3) I really still think my summary of Sirlin's "scrub" is fair - he goes on to say "the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations “cheap.” This “cheapness” is truly the mantra of the scrub ... Nearly anything you do that ends up making you win is a prime candidate for being called cheap."

I'm assuming you're talking about in tourney because you can't possibly know their entire history regarding friendlies.

And I've never refused to play against someone because they camp either (in tourney). Nor does the potential of campers stop me from entering tourneys. But I will avoid playing with them casually.

This is an example of not having the "scrub" mentality then.

 

[Sangoku]

FkU ur a scrub

 

[SheerMadness]

3) I really still think my summary of Sirlin's "scrub" is fair - he goes on to say "the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations “cheap.” This “cheapness” is truly the mantra of the scrub ... Nearly anything you do that ends up making you win is a prime candidate for being called cheap."

But like I've explained above, his definition just doesn't appear to apply to the world of smash.

Camping in melee can be just as good ssb64. Armada has camped hbox with Young Link the past 3-4 major tourneys to beat him because he can't seem to do it with Peach. A lot of their puff/young link matches literally go to time deciding a winner.

Armada fits the role of "playing to win anyway you can" perfectly in melee. But then you've got people like mango who shatter his "scrub mentality" definition.

 

[The Star King]

Hey Star killer. did you really just compare me to unknown??
please never ever do that again.

You're right, it's downright offensive to be compared to JUNK. I am truly sorry

and also i didn't play smash with you for at least a year so don't pretend that you know whose better between me and nintedude. Also online and console for me are totally different and only B Link and *** vwls saw me play console live.

I will admit these are all good points. It's just that a year ago Nintendude was significantly better than you in my opinion, and so you would need a pretty large improvement to be better than him - which is unlikely after a Smasher has already been playing for years, because improvement naturally slows down. I could be wrong though, so I guess I'll semi-concede lol

For the record, I never said you weren't good, I think you're a great player and all. I just have an even higher opinion of Nintendude.

 

[King Funk]

And that simply does not prove to be true in the smash world. Mango and PP have won the vast majority of the highest level smash tourneys since 2008 (Armada has won a couple in the past year or two also. Oh hbox has won a couple since 2008 too). They don't camp...

I stopped reading there.

 

[YBOMBB]

You're right, it's downright offensive to be compared to JUNK. I am truly sorry


ahah very well said, its all good! Damn ppl love to argue in smashboards! 11 pages of mostly pointless( but enteraining) arguing. Also i'm planning on going to Apex, mainly to beat the crap out of smasher74, physically and in smash.

 

[SheerMadness]

I stopped reading there.

Show me evidence of Mango ever camping in tourney please. He's like the most aggro player ever.

PP is a little more patient for sure. But I've certainly never seen him pull an Armada Young Link.

 

[King Funk]

Show me evidence of Mango ever camping in tourney please. He's like the most aggro player ever.

PP is a little more patient for sure. But I've certainly never seen him pull and Armada Young Link.

Or maybe you could get a smarter vision of the game where you don't simply label some players as "aggressive" and "defensive".

 

[SheerMadness]

Lol what?

Need more evidence of mango camping please.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Another post to ignore

 

[tacos]

dis thread... needs moar salsa!

 

[King Funk]

Also i'm planning on going to Apex

Cool, I hope to go too. ^^

 

[clubbadubba]

Sheer, I think that... nah jk i'm not even gonna **** with this one. Least significant argument ever. Btw, I don't think I can go to apex this year . I think winter tournies are going to be out of the question for a while since I'll be coaching high school bball in the winter. Sigh. Oh well, I'll still be at FC.