I'm back into the game and I'm playing Ganondorf again. Ask me anything related.

[Deleted member]

@chad, what is your honest opinion of kage's skill level?

 

[Divinokage]

Does it matter?

 

[crush]

Cage just gotta throw out those attacks and watch the fox mains run into them

 

[Divinokage]

Yep sounds about right. =) All I need is the warrior's fist and I can win vs anyone. =)

 

[Dr Peepee]

Chaddd is mad smart. He could def turn heads again if he plays a lot like he says he will.

Chaddd, do you think if you were playing at your top performance that you would need to still CP Fox for spacies or Falcon or Sheik(just throwing matchups out there)? Basically a "do you think Ganon is viable" but on a more personal level lol.

 

[-ACE-]

I think if Chaddd steps up his innovation and speed somewhat he'll go straight Ganon without thinking twice.

 

[chaddd]

@chad, what is your honest opinion of kage's skill level?

He's a skilled player with a versatile Ganondorf. I honestly think the only thing standing in his way of placing top 5 at an international level event is either an extensive knowledge of those top player's styles or a valid counterpick character that allows him to breeze past those certain matchups that highlight Ganondorf's undeniable weaknesses.

Does it matter?

Not really. haha

Cage just gotta throw out those attacks and watch the fox mains run into them

Don't we all?

Chaddd is mad smart. He could def turn heads again if he plays a lot like he says he will.

Chaddd, do you think if you were playing at your top performance that you would need to still CP Fox for spacies or Falcon or Sheik(just throwing matchups out there)? Basically a "do you think Ganon is viable" but on a more personal level lol.

Ganondorf holds the capability to win any matchup if he plays it right. The main issue with running him 100% of the time is just that in certain scenarios involving lack of sleep, exhaustion, nervousness, and other issues. You tend to find that Ganondorf's mistakes have much more of an impact on his ability to win the game than the vast amount of high tier characters.

For instance, Fox produces around 200 actions around the same time Ganondorf produces roughly 30-40. One mistake from Fox may very well be punished, but due to his high number of actions it makes it much less likely to affect his overall game performance negatively than a character like Ganondorf.

My goal has always been to have characters available when I need them, and I believe that when I'm playing at the highest possible level of the meta game today that I would have equal control over both my characters if only for the sake of versatility.

Certain players I find it's better strategy to play Ganondorf against their high tiers because of their aggressive play styles. But typically if I'm playing a player who has a lot of experience against Ganondorf, like Lambchops for instance (who has trained with both Tipman and Linguini), it's much smarter for me to select a character with an equal number of options.

There is also the fact that Fox has a distinct advantage over Ganondorf against characters like Falcon and Sheik, where as the characters that give Fox trouble (like Samus, Ice Climbers, Donkey Kong, Peach, and Marth) are all pretty strongly in Ganondorf's favor.

Essentially my goal is to be able to play both my characters as well as one another so that I can apply that to my knowledge of my opponent for a stronger strategic advantage.

I think if Chaddd steps up his innovation and speed somewhat he'll go straight Ganon without thinking twice.

And you're right. Touching on what I said to Peepee just now, there are several matchups (both player and character) that I feel Ganondorf is a much stronger pick. Typically I prefer to play Ganondorf first and foremost and I will only switch if I feel the match wasn't close enough to risk picking him twice in a row.

But if I'm playing against someone who knows Ganondorf well enough to know how to call his actions often enough to make the matchup relatively even, I'd prefer for the matchup to remain relatively even while being able to maintain a greater number of options (playing as Fox).

Truthfully, it's a simple matter of counter picking as strategically as possible. While I feel that I could win against any character or player with Ganondorf if I performed flawlessly, at a certain level of pro competition I've come to the conclusion that playing as Fox affords me the luxury of accomplishing the exact same goal while only having to work 1/3 as hard as if I had picked Ganondorf.

It's a sad fact of the game at a certain level, and I'm confident I'll need an equally skilled Fox and Ganondorf in order to Top 5 regional or national level brackets. Just watch my videos from Winterfest and you'll see what I mean. I lost Fox dittos to Jman all day that day, and he put me into Loser's Brackets 2-0 when I picked Ganondorf both games. I simply decided I had nothing to lose by at least trying to play Fox even though I hadn't won any dittos against him all day, and it worked out in my favor. Alternatively, against M2K in the same bracket, I beat his Marth with my Ganondorf, at which point I had to switch to Fox to avoid being chain grab 4 stocked by his Sheik (which he actually did earlier that day). If my Fox had been stronger against Marth at that point then it could have easily been me playing Hungrybox for Loser's Finals.

Also pay close attention to the selections for the entire M2K set. By selecting Fox first, I greatly increased the chances that he would counterpick Marth, who I prefer to play against. It also allowed for the Ganon/Marth counterpick in the second match, and switching back to Fox increased the chances that he would stick with his already warmed up Marth as opposed to switching to a Sheik that he hadn't played yet during the entire set. With my character selection I was able to strongly influence my opponent's characters selection.

Truthfully my ultimate goal will always be maintaining the strongest and most strategic counterpick game possible. It's just how everyone at the highest level of play has managed to win so consistently and seemingly effortlessly, from Isai's Falcon/Sheik to Armada's Peach/Young Link. For example, if Armada had only played Peach at Genesis, then it's likely he would have just lost to Hungrybox, where if he only played Young Link he probably would have never made it far enough to play Hungrybox in the first place.

I also feel it's much more strategic for your opponent to be unable to determine your characters selection OR your strongest stage pick. It's undeniable that it's much easier to prepare for a match mentally and strategically when you already know your opponent's character selection. It's definitely much more of an advantage to do your best to remain unpredictable.

 

[Divinokage]

Ya that's fair enough, I actually was thinking about this recently too. Sure it's nice to go all Ganon at international tournaments but I mean if I want to win vs certain players I have to expand my options and choose different characters according to their style because sometimes I'll just get straight up ***** because either I suck at the matchup or they know Ganon too much or they know my style too much you know or fighting a bad matchup can sometimes be hard too depending on who it is.

But at the same time, Ganon is too good.. I can't really let him go. lol.

Like for example I lost to a fox player who knows the Ganon matchup really well 1st round when he was lower skilled than me.. and then I had to go Falcon because I was being pressured for CPing.. so it ended up well and I won both games with Falcon after.

 

[chaddd]

Ya that's fair enough, I actually was thinking about this recently too. Sure it's nice to go all Ganon at international tournaments but I mean if I want to win vs certain players I have to expand my options and choose different characters according to their style because sometimes I'll just get straight up ***** because either I suck at the matchup or they know Ganon too much or they know my style too much you know or fighting a bad matchup can sometimes be hard too depending on who it is.

But at the same time, Ganon is too good.. I can't really let him go. lol.

Like for example I lost to a fox player who knows the Ganon matchup really well 1st round when he was lower skilled than me.. and then I had to go Falcon because I was being pressured for CPing.. so it ended up well and I won both games with Falcon after.

Exactly.

Certain players just have more Ganondorf practice than you might have practice against their character, or even just their style.

But there's no dishonor in not going all Ganondorf, anyway. As a matter of fact I think having a good Ganondorf gives you an advantage that most players will never have. Having a good Ganondorf means never having to be incredibly worried about Donkey Kong, Ice Climbers, or Samus. He really is too good.

On top of everything, playing more characters will give you more insight on the options and intentions of those particular characters. And that can only make your game stronger.

 

[Linguini]

Smart post by chad. I agree with everything you said.

My fox has gotten pretty good against sheik in the past couple months so i'm probably going to test it out at the next tournament. Other than sheik, I don't really get frustrated with any other matchups so I see no reason to switch.

I've already decided that if someone counter-picks me to a stage that isn't neutral(brinstar, kongo, etc.) i'm just going fox. I can't even describe how much I hate playing on gay stages with ganon lol.

 

[unknown522]

OMG Chaddd is back?!!?!!?

awesome

He's a skilled player with a versatile Ganondorf. I honestly think the only thing standing in his way of placing top 5 at an international level event is either an extensive knowledge of those top player's styles or a valid counterpick character that allows him to breeze past those certain matchups that highlight Ganondorf's undeniable weaknesses.

Actually, we were talking to Kage about that during his set vs KirbyKaze. That man is his kryptonite. We suggested things like using spacies, jiggs, Sheik ditto, or ICs or something.

Then again, fox is also another problem for Kage, so I would suggest that he uses either falco or sheik to cover his matchups.


Also, I'm lovin the big post chad

 

[Divinokage]

Smart post by chad. I agree with everything you said.

My fox has gotten pretty good against sheik in the past couple months so i'm probably going to test it out at the next tournament. Other than sheik, I don't really get frustrated with any other matchups so I see no reason to switch.

I've already decided that if someone counter-picks me to a stage that isn't neutral(brinstar, kongo, etc.) i'm just going fox. I can't even describe how much I hate playing on gay stages with ganon lol.

Idk I like them personally, I don't mind but ya we should definitely be more open and use our options more correctly if we want to defeat certain players that knows our style too much.

OMG Chaddd is back?!!?!!?

awesome

Actually, we were talking to Kage about that during his set vs KirbyKaze. That man is his kryptonite. We suggested things like using spacies, jiggs, Sheik ditto, or ICs or something.

Then again, fox is also another problem for Kage, so I would suggest that he uses either falco or sheik to cover his matchups.


Also, I'm lovin the big post chad

Mike told me to go Puff, I'm like no ****ing way.. lol. But I mean to get to that pro level with other characters will take SO MUCH work, my Falcon is the closest by far for me atm. But, I mean for real I have been playing my side characters a lot more this past few months to make them stronger but I'm still way too low level with them. And ya Chaddd, that was a sick post. My only other options I really have and I enjoy playing is Falcon, Falco or Marth.

 

[unknown522]

hahahahaha, puff. It's a good choice for matchup, but you'd probably get bored.

Falcon's not too bad, but it's hard to be up there with him.

Still, you should pick/stick with a character that you enjoy. If other characters aren't for you, then stay ganon. But, if you like falco. I honestly suggest him to cover both fox and sheik, and maybe even other falcos.

Alternatively, you can use marth vs fox, but you probably shouldn't try it vs david. Even IB has picked up falco to use against him, because he hates marth vs sheik. His falco has improved really quickly.

 

[chaddd]

Added the last post to the first post of this page because of the positive feedback for it.

 

[Geenareeno]

I've already decided that if someone counter-picks me to a stage that isn't neutral(brinstar, kongo, etc.) i'm just going fox. I can't even describe how much I hate playing on gay stages with ganon lol.

Aren't those stages good for Ganon? What i'm really asking is why those stages are bad for Ganon since you know your ****.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Chad's posts give my brain a hard on.

 

[Divinokage]

Depends on the matchup but generally Ganon is amazing on KJ and Brinstar.. Well I usually win on those stages.

On KJ, Ganon's recovery is much better because he has more options to recover. Like going to the top platforms or FF to the edge.. etc. Umm also he's less susceptible to CGs because the way the stage is made on the bottom. Basically the main strengths.

On Brinstar.. well, Ganon can kill really fast and can do ridiculous lava combos that **** the **** out of most characters too lol. And his recovery when the lava is up is also better, it helps a lot.

 

[Linguini]

Geen, I never said they were bad for ganon, but that I just disliked them. One of the main problems with both of those levels are their janky edges. Since they are both stages without bottoms the dynamics of the edges work differently and I many times suicide from just not being able to regrab the ledge while stalling, to its weirdness causing me to **** up my ledgedash.

I also dislike stupid factors like the lava and the barrel that take away from the skill vs skill aspect of the game. The floor on kongo is also annoying because I love having my guaranteed follow-ups out of grabs, and this sometimes ruins them.

This is just my opinion, of course. I'd rather play fox who is good as hell on any of the gay stages lol

 

[chaddd]

Geen, I never said they were bad for ganon, but that I just disliked them. One of the main problems with both of those levels are their janky edges. Since they are both stages without bottoms the dynamics of the edges work differently and I many times suicide from just not being able to regrab the ledge while stalling, to its weirdness causing me to **** up my ledgedash.

I also dislike stupid factors like the lava and the barrel that take away from the skill vs skill aspect of the game. The floor on kongo is also annoying because I love having my guaranteed follow-ups out of grabs, and this sometimes ruins them.

This is just my opinion, of course. I'd rather play fox who is good as hell on any of the gay stages lol

You also can't discount the fact that in both those stages the center isn't completely level so Ganondorf's normal waveland -> grab and waveland -> jab/tilt game gets pretty much completely ruined. In stages like that Ganondorf is usually forced to spend much more time in the air, and against a faster character this can make gimping Ganondorf much easier. All they have to do is wait for you to predictably use your second jump and it's all over.

 

[Geenareeno]

I see. Thanks a lot for the writeups about the stages guys. One time I took a jiggs to KJ and he camped me until 2 minutes and I lost. That was stupid lol. Could someone talk about cping to RC, like what are the pros and cons and which characters is it good to cp to and which is it bad. Obviously never take Jigglypuff there but what about all the other high tiers?

 

[chaddd]

I see. Thanks a lot for the writeups about the stages guys. One time I took a jiggs to KJ and he camped me until 2 minutes and I lost. That was stupid lol. Could someone talk about cping to RC, like what are the pros and cons and which characters is it good to cp to and which is it bad. Obviously never take Jigglypuff there but what about all the other high tiers?

Just about every character has an equal opportunity to win when it comes to Rainbow Cruise. Really it just comes down to a player's level of comfort with the stage, because there are many ways for a character to gimp any other character if it's timed right. Three characters have a distinct advantage one this stage though: Fox, Falco, and Jigglypuff. Fox's advantage has a lot to do with his shine, Falco can shine off the top and his high jump height is a huge plus, and Jigglypuff is incredibly obvious. Characters who seem to lose a lot when going to RC include anyone who needs a lot of room to run around or anyone who relies on the ledge a lot.

Overall, though, you can win just about any matchup as long as you're simply comfortable enough to play the stage.

 

[Riddlebox]

KK posting

Rainbow Cruise is actually decent for Ganon in some MUs IMO just because he can do the same thing that Sheik does there. When I'm taken to that level, I just contrive to stay ahead of the opposing character. As long as I do that, I can force them to approach me because of the level's sidescrolling. Then I do... stuff... and kill them. I can't see why a similar tactic wouldn't work for Ganon.

I don't know how Ganon interacts with the other members of the cast so I won't try to mash a complicated theory out on which characters it would be good against, but I'd imagine anyone he's openly faster than would be a reasonable choice.

I think it's kind of underrated for him because the platform section and sidescrolling promotes aerial battles, and there's a lot of MUs where he's got an edge in them. Obviously don't take Fox or Falco there, though. Shines, lasers, Bairs, and their general mobility are too good there.

 

[Deleted member]

Wow. This thread is real ****ing talk.

Chaddd. What do you think of Falcon vs. Ganon?

I was under the impression once that it was horrible for Ganon, but I feel like I've learned that Ganon can compete with him more than I once thought possible.

 

[chaddd]

Wow. This thread is real ****ing talk.

Chaddd. What do you think of Falcon vs. Ganon?

I was under the impression once that it was horrible for Ganon, but I feel like I've learned that Ganon can compete with him more than I once thought possible.

Falcon vs Ganon is a relatively even match up, the problem is that while you can effectively KO him, he can combo you like crazy. Obviously there's some tips I already gave in the first post, but aside from that I can think of a few other things that will help.

Try to wavedash out of shield often to mess up his spacing like I already said, but if you happen to get hit anyway, it's good to DI his moves down and away. This neutralizes most of his ability to combo you, but remember that you shouldn't DI EVERYTHING this way, there will always be exceptions to the rule.

 

[Deleted member]

interesting I always felt falcon takes a huge, flowing, wet diarrhea dooky dump on ganon

 

[Linguini]

Nah, not at all. But then again I understand why one would think that considering there are barely any ganons who know the matchup well.

I'd say it's 60-40 and 55-45 in top levels of play. Falcon has ****ed up auto combos in many situations but with the right ccing and aerial spacing you can shut down his dashdancing tactics which make up a large part of his game.

LOL at your metaphor for the matcup

 

[G. Vice]

interesting I always felt falcon takes a huge, flowing, wet diarrhea dooky dump on ganon

LOL

60-40 at least imo. To me it seems hard when the falcon is playing right.

 

[BBQ°]

After playing against PP's marth at G6, have your feelings on the marth vs ganon matchup changed at all? And what are your thoughts on the marth vs ganon matchup in general?

 

[Geenareeno]

Yeah that matchup seems the worst outside of Sheik.

 

[Divinokage]

What? It's easier than Falcon, Falco, Fox and Sheik for sure.

 

[spider_sense]

What? It's easier than Falcon, Falco, Fox and Sheik for sure.

Falcon doesn't seem that bad imo, you just have to work on finishing your combos and hit him with the correct spacing or else you'll get overwhelmed by his speed. I don't think it's 45-55, but somewhere in-between that and 60-40. I honestly think that Ganon's actual worst matchups is Sheik and Fox (Fox is tolerable, but it requires some really good zoning tactics and solid edge guarding)

 

[-ACE-]

and jiggs.

Marth has an advantage, mostly due to his speed (faster earials, faster run speed, insane wd), but Ganon keeps him in check.

Since I'm too high to make sense in paragraph form:
-Marth can't abuse his range that much against Ganon in comparison to most other matchups.
-Ganon can deal with all of marth's approaches with relative ease (although you need good spacing and you pretty much have to be a half step ahead of marth at all times lol)
-Ganon has all the tools to properly edgeguard marth in any situation, so Ganon isn't the only one that's auto-dead when he gets knocked offstage.

 

[Divinokage]

Falcon doesn't seem that bad imo, you just have to work on finishing your combos and hit him with the correct spacing or else you'll get overwhelmed by his speed. I don't think it's 45-55, but somewhere in-between that and 60-40. I honestly think that Ganon's actual worst matchups is Sheik and Fox (Fox is tolerable, but it requires some really good zoning tactics and solid edge guarding)

I dare you to try vs any pro Falcons with Ganon. GL.

 

[G. Vice]

I dare you to try vs any pro Falcons with Ganon. GL.

This.

Falcon is able to do every thing Ganon has to do (space and techchase and combo) better than Ganon can. He's more equipped to do the very thing the Ganon is trying to do, combine that with his speed, and the fact that he can literally react to everything a Ganon can do once he's techchasing just leaves him better in the matchup.

It's possible, I agree. But it's definitely hard, and I don't know of any good approaches vs falcon. The only thing I can think of is you have to outsmart them consistently. And pray.

Falco/Sheik is just ughh I don't even want to talk about it.

 

[spider_sense]

I dare you to try vs any pro Falcons with Ganon. GL.

lol We'll have to see. I haven't played any top level falcon, but watching Emilio murk Darkrain (as well as yourself) and watch Emilio go even with Hax. I'm inclined to believe it's not that hard. Tipman also stomped Falcons pretty hard himself.

And I'll keep saying that Ganon/Falco is pretty even. Laser campage is ghey, but can Ganon can get around it.

 

[chaddd]

After playing against PP's marth at G6, have your feelings on the marth vs ganon matchup changed at all? And what are your thoughts on the marth vs ganon matchup in general?

No, losing would never change my view on a matchup I already believe is even.

If anything it showed me that I need to practice a while longer if I expect to perform well enough to win at high level play. I did, however, learn what NOT to do against a player with that level of patience.

 

[-ACE-]

Jason Ganon/Falco is nowhere near even. 60/40. A smart falco that realizes Ganon's weaknesses/llmitations and punishes hard is no joke.

 

[soju]

Hey ganon players, go to training mode, put on bunny ears, jab repeatedly. Witness the amazement of ganon's secret move.

 

[Walt]

Yep the second jab. Unfortunately it has no hitbox, just an animation.

 

[Renth]

hey ganon players, go to training mode, put on bunny ears, jab repeatedly. Witness the amazement of ganon's secret move.

whoa no way!! What a sweet discovery i had no idea!! Woooww

you are clearly the first person who has ever seen this damn

i am jealous yo ufound such an amazing....


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