Ike's Matchups

[GmJn]

Does the Chaingrab work from 0%?

 

[Chef2]

Does the Chaingrab work from 0%?

Yes it does. If they DI away, you have to do a dash->jump cancel grab

 

[King of Hoboz]

To clarify from what Chef2 says, at 0% you literally have to guess 50/50 on their DI. A dash>JC Grab covered DI away and DI in place if you time right, while you have to pivot grab to cover DI towards. They'll fall too fast to really watch their DI I believe, though I have been getting it rather consistently, so maybe there is some amount of reaction to do.

 

[GmJn]

To clarify from what Chef2 says, at 0% you literally have to guess 50/50 on their DI. A dash>JC Grab covered DI away and DI in place if you time right, while you have to pivot grab to cover DI towards. They'll fall too fast to really watch their DI I believe, though I have been getting it rather consistently, so maybe there is some amount of reaction to do.

Yes it does. If they DI away, you have to do a dash->jump cancel grab

Thanks

 

[MrSaturnZoOm]

Hey, a fairly new Ike here, what's the matchup for Sheik like? I had a lot of trouble with one during friendlies at a tournament since her needles are very good at countering your QD.

 

[MLGF]

Well, QD is kinda bad in neutral anyhow so...
Go on stages with a lot of platforms, fake out with wavelands, start combos with grabs and nairs. Fake out crouch cancels.

Don't QD when she's in a neutral position, lest you wish to be needle'd to death. contrary to popular belief, it's not that great of a tool in neutral.

 

[metroid1117]

Hey, a fairly new Ike here, what's the matchup for Sheik like? I had a lot of trouble with one during friendlies at a tournament since her needles are very good at countering your QD.

This is a post that I dug up from October, but I feel that the advice is valid even though there have been minor changes between PM versions since then:

Sorry for the double-post, but since the Sheik match-up gets asked about so often and I have recent footage of it, I've decided to post my set with Darkatma here as well. In general, try to keep her up in the air as long as you can, since sharking her with NAirs, UAirs, and UTilt (which has intangibility on Ike's arm) is relatively easy. Once you get her offstage, it's a matter of grabbing the edge to force her onto the stage, wavelanding onto the stage, using DSmash1 (or 2 if they land behind you) to send her off, and repeat. Getting hit and edgeguarded by her is painful though, so CC her tilts at low %s and watch out for the DI mix-up between BThrow and DThrow (what usually works for me is to DI behind her for the BThrow and react to the DThrow animation, but most Melee veterans will prefer DThrow by default).

 

[X0dus]

Hey, a fairly new Ike here, what's the matchup for Sheik like? I had a lot of trouble with one during friendlies at a tournament since her needles are very good at countering your QD.

Learn to DI her throws on reaction and not on prediction, it will save your ass in the long run. Generally speaking, DI up and away or away for all her tilts and down and away for all her forward, back, and down throw. The point is to react the ground to tech and it will make it harder for her to follow-up and get kill confirms. Up-throw is very effective at low and mid percents and leads to a lot of follow-ups and chains. Try to space her out and keep walling her out with your sword. I personally try to be defensive because she is quicker than Ike and I outspace her.

 

[TheBearsFist]

Learn to DI her throws on reaction and not on prediction, it will save your *** in the long run. Generally speaking, DI up and away or away for all her tilts and down and away for all her forward, back, and down throw. The point is to react the ground to tech and it will make it harder for her to follow-up and get kill confirms. Up-throw is very effective at low and mid percents and leads to a lot of follow-ups and chains. Try to space her out and keep walling her out with your sword. I personally try to be defensive because she is quicker than Ike and I outspace her.

Picking up Ike and this was very helpful Thanks!

 

[X0dus]

I realize this is mostly shield pressure stuff, so if your bored and want some heavy in depth match up reading, head over to the Wolf thread and find the title "Wolf vs Ike Matchup", lotta community members chipped in too, so there's some good info!

I've been trying to find that thread but I can't find it anywhere.

 

[King of Hoboz]

Here's some Ike vs Wolf if you want some references. I've already posted them, but if you need anything, maybe these can help.

 

[Chef2]

I've been trying to find that thread but I can't find it anywhere.

http://smashboards.com/threads/wolf-ike-matchup.386700/

It's the third post. It's pretty long but hopefully useful definitely not complete either but I think it covers what wolf and ike both want to generally do in the match up

 

[Helsong]

How do I deal with Ganondorf? I have no issues actually comboing and following up when I get momentum going, but in the neutral, I have serious issues getting started. I get walled out with tilts, AC nairs, and spaced fairs, and the moment I get hit, my opponent tends to read me incredibly well. I've already decided I need to essentially dashdance better and work wavedashing and QD mixups in to bait things out, but what other things should I focus on to beat him?

 

[X0dus]

How do I deal with Ganondorf? I have no issues actually comboing and following up when I get momentum going, but in the neutral, I have serious issues getting started. I get walled out with tilts, AC nairs, and spaced fairs, and the moment I get hit, my opponent tends to read me incredibly well. I've already decided I need to essentially dashdance better and work wavedashing and QD mixups in to bait things out, but what other things should I focus on to beat him?

As someone who also secondaries Ganon, I want to say well spaced fairs/nairs. Because there is a decent amount start-up and end lag on f-tilt and your sword has more range than Ganon's nair and fair. I feel like the match-up is basically abusing the fact that you have a really long sword and you hit like a truck, while being much quicker, and you don't have to respect him since you are can constantly forcing him out or you can choke him out with your superior mobility. Alternatively, you can force him to approach and keep him out constantly with nair and fair or if he runs at you, you can probably do a QD grab. There is a number of reasons I think Ike ****s on Ganon. But you should keep in mind that Ike's DD is limited and his WD kind of sucks. Also, ftilt is really good in this match-up and it is great for edgeguarding.

 

[MLGF]

Don't approach and bait out Ganon's attacks via good movement, Ganon can't approach and it's easy to punish him, lol. Even with Ike's poor movement, it still goes circles around Ganon.

Just be careful about strong wavelands, in this case the best advice I can give is avoid battlefield, but really it's the same.

And edgeguarding him should hopefully be simple.

 

[Strong Badam]

Learn to DI her throws on reaction and not on prediction, it will save your *** in the long run.

Not possible, they both release on the same frame and are not visually different quickly enough for human reaction time to differentiate them in time.

 

[Helsong]

As someone who also secondaries Ganon, I want to say well spaced fairs/nairs. Because there is a decent amount start-up and end lag on f-tilt and your sword has more range than Ganon's nair and fair. I feel like the match-up is basically abusing the fact that you have a really long sword and you hit like a truck, while being much quicker, and you don't have to respect him since you are can constantly forcing him out or you can choke him out with your superior mobility. Alternatively, you can force him to approach and keep him out constantly with nair and fair or if he runs at you, you can probably do a QD grab. There is a number of reasons I think Ike ****s on Ganon. But you should keep in mind that Ike's DD is limited and his WD kind of sucks. Also, ftilt is really good in this match-up and it is great for edgeguarding.

Don't approach and bait out Ganon's attacks via good movement, Ganon can't approach and it's easy to punish him, lol. Even with Ike's poor movement, it still goes circles around Ganon.

Just be careful about strong wavelands, in this case the best advice I can give is avoid battlefield, but really it's the same.

And edgeguarding him should hopefully be simple.

So I need to space better than he does, and not use easily-discerned or punishable movement. I have no problems securing kills, it's just that he plays very defensively and tends to be a stone wall. I've had a much easier time on FD, for obviouis reasons. He's got good wavelands as well, but it's usualy pretty easy for me to just shirt-hop fair to catch him coming in. Sounds like I should just quit trying to rush in to start something, and instead play more defensively until I catch him.

 

[MLGF]

Personally, I'm mad aggressive and thrive on it. It's totally possible to be able to get in via aggressive play if that's what you're into.

It's all about proper baiting, as if you're forcing the Ganon to throw out the move, and then proceed to grab him by the balls and never let go.

 

[Helsong]

Sorry, I meant more rushdown/reckless, more than aggressive. I'm usually aggressive in my punishes, but I get wrecked when I go in first, since I tend to be more linear in that. I just have to play smarter, sicne my opponent tends to be really good at punishing reckless play, and he's more aggro in his punishes than me.

 

[MLGF]

As long as you don't QD in neutral, you'll be fine once you get it.

 

[Omar_25]

What am I supposed to do against marth? I'm tired of getting destroyed by marth.

 

[Moy]

What am I supposed to do against marth? I'm tired of getting destroyed by marth.

I've found that staying on the ground is pretty critical against other sword characters - both Marth and Roy match your range pretty well, but also can put out their hitboxes faster than you. You try to jump in too often, you'll either get swatted before your move comes out or grabbed during its recovery. At the same token, you can do that against them too - baiting and punishing with grabs is always huge with Ike.

Spacing is mad important too - you're getting grabbed if your aerials on shield aren't outside of his grab range.

Like a lot of characters vs. Marth, getting a feel of how he likes to approach and play the neutral is key to finding out when he'll rush you down and attack. Catching him with Nair is a good option when he jumps, and sharking underneath always leads to profit. I think you can Nair OoS if he SH Fairs your shield, and WD OoS after bad Fsmashes.

 

[Smarf]

Who are Ike's hardest matchups?

 

[MLGF]

Sheik, Falcon, Kirby, DDD, Puff immediately come to mind, there's probably a lot more I'm forgetting though.

 

[Smarf]

Sheik, Falcon, Kirby, DDD, Puff immediately come to mind, there's probably a lot more I'm forgetting though.

Why DeDeDe and Kirby?

 

[MLGF]

Kirby can crouch under Ike's jab and grab, can gimp him vey easily, and Ike can't juggle him in the air.

Same for ddd except he can live forever and has more range

 

[Smarf]

Kirby can crouch under Ike's jab and grab, can gimp him vey easily, and Ike can't juggle him in the air.

Same for ddd except he can live forever and has more range

How does ddd edge guard your up b? Does he kill you before you even get a chance to do it?

 

[ZiggaWaTT]

Ike is actually a really easy edge guard in general if you know how to edge guard him. Mainly because his recovery while good is very predictable. Holding on to the ledge for the ledge invincibility then challenging the up b. and dash attacks with disjoints,d tilts, etc will hit if you dont sweet spot perfectly. DDD and Kirby have an extra easy time edge guarding Ike because of their extra jumps plus DDD has that range with his hammer.

 

[Your Face]

Yes it does. If they DI away, you have to do a dash->jump cancel grab

How many chaingrabs can you safely fit in? I tried to get a third one in on a Ganondorf recently, but he just sidestepped away and gave me a lickin'.

 

[Chef2]

How many chaingrabs can you safely fit in? I tried to get a third one in on a Ganondorf recently, but he just sidestepped away and gave me a lickin'.

Ike's up throw chain grab works best on fast fallers like fox, falcon, wolf, etc. simply because when you toss them up they fall back down and you can grab them again. Ganon has a heavy weight, but his fall speed is actually quite low (I.e. He's a floaty) so Ike's up throw chain grab won't work for very long.

 

[Your Face]

Ike's up throw chain grab works best on fast fallers like fox, falcon, wolf, etc. simply because when you toss them up they fall back down and you can grab them again. Ganon has a heavy weight, but his fall speed is actually quite low (I.e. He's a floaty) so Ike's up throw chain grab won't work for very long.

Sorry, I should have clarified; I was talking about Fthrow chaingrabs, not Uthrow. Thanks for the advice though

 

[X0dus]

Sorry, I should have clarified; I was talking about Fthrow chaingrabs, not Uthrow. Thanks for the advice though

That actually isn't a chaingrab, with proper DI (Down and Away). A chaingrab means you can't escape it, unless the person messes up. At most, you get 2 regrabs with quickdraw. But in your case, you will have to do a QD JC grab or WD grab if you want to keep it going.

 

[metroid1117]

Sorry, I should have clarified; I was talking about Fthrow chaingrabs, not Uthrow. Thanks for the advice though

That actually isn't a chaingrab, with proper DI (Down and Away). A chaingrab means you can't escape it, unless the person messes up. At most, you get 2 regrabs with quickdraw. But in your case, you will have to do a QD JC grab or WD grab if you want to keep it going.

To elaborate, you can sometimes get in more regrabs if you mix up between FThrow and BThrow, since "escape" DI for one is bad DI for the other. On floatier characters (not Ganon though), you can also use DThrow to set up for regrabs at mid %s depending on their DI. Those three throws can act as a kind of DI mix-up when used together, but it's not terribly hard for the opponent to get out of because they can always DI away+down for FThrow and then DI behind+down for BThrow/DThrow on reaction.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

To elaborate, you can sometimes get in more regrabs if you mix up between FThrow and BThrow, since "escape" DI for one is bad DI for the other. On floatier characters (not Ganon though), you can also use DThrow to set up for regrabs at mid %s depending on their DI. Those three throws can act as a kind of DI mix-up when used together, but it's not terribly hard for the opponent to get out of because they can always DI away+down for FThrow and then DI behind+down for BThrow/DThrow on reaction.

A *much* better use for Bthrow and Dthrow is using them to toss people offstage, or throwing them towards the edge to corner them. Bad DI nets them a follow up of some sort and good DI nets them poor position or edgeguard situation at best. Plus I'm pretty sure that there's a lot of ranges of DI Ike can cover with QD -> JC -> Appropriate Aerial anyway, even on "good DI" when throwing them offstage, because they have no ground to tech on and Ike can fly after them with fair/diar depending on percent and DI, and still make it back with DJ + Aether. Doubly so on a stage like FOD, GHZ, WW or Yoshi's, where we can even use our walljump to extend our offstage punish range significantly to knock people into areas they just can't recover from while we make it back.

Our throw game is pretty good, guys.

 

[Frakture]

Actually, at 0%, you can F-throw chaingrab certain characters regardless of DI. It is somewhat frame tight, and you can only do it twice before the opponent can escape, but free damage is always useful. I haven't done much testing on it, but it works on Gannon, Bowser, and Yoshi for sure.

 

[Your Face]

That actually isn't a chaingrab, with proper DI (Down and Away). A chaingrab means you can't escape it, unless the person messes up. At most, you get 2 regrabs with quickdraw. But in your case, you will have to do a QD JC grab or WD grab if you want to keep it going.

To elaborate, you can sometimes get in more regrabs if you mix up between FThrow and BThrow, since "escape" DI for one is bad DI for the other. On floatier characters (not Ganon though), you can also use DThrow to set up for regrabs at mid %s depending on their DI. Those three throws can act as a kind of DI mix-up when used together, but it's not terribly hard for the opponent to get out of because they can always DI away+down for FThrow and then DI behind+down for BThrow/DThrow on reaction.

A *much* better use for Bthrow and Dthrow is using them to toss people offstage, or throwing them towards the edge to corner them. Bad DI nets them a follow up of some sort and good DI nets them poor position or edgeguard situation at best. Plus I'm pretty sure that there's a lot of ranges of DI Ike can cover with QD -> JC -> Appropriate Aerial anyway, even on "good DI" when throwing them offstage, because they have no ground to tech on and Ike can fly after them with fair/diar depending on percent and DI, and still make it back with DJ + Aether. Doubly so on a stage like FOD, GHZ, WW or Yoshi's, where we can even use our walljump to extend our offstage punish range significantly to knock people into areas they just can't recover from while we make it back.

Our throw game is pretty good, guys.

Actually, at 0%, you can F-throw chaingrab certain characters regardless of DI. It is somewhat frame tight, and you can only do it twice before the opponent can escape, but free damage is always useful. I haven't done much testing on it, but it works on Gannon, Bowser, and Yoshi for sure.

Alright then, cool. Thanks again for the awesome advice!

 

[Gawain the Knight]

What do you guys think of the Metaknight MU?

 

[X0dus]

What do you guys think of the Metaknight MU?

I know K9 doesn't go Metaknight against me anymore and before 3.5, I asked him if he could help me with the match-up, after 3.5, he said it wasn't necessary anymore. (He against still goes Metaknight in PM sometimes).

 

[CELTiiC]

How does Ike do against characters like Zelda, Sheik and Peach? I'm considering picking him up and those would be three match ups I can use DK but would prefer to cover with a different character.

 

[Sylarius]

Through the advice posted here and watching a lot of Ike v. Sheik videos I'm still somewhat having problems with a sheik player in my region, he has taken me out in loser's bracket in the last 3 major tournaments I've played in (twice in grands reset and once in loser's semis) though I've beaten him in the majority of smaller tournaments. I don't feel like it's a mentality thing but... yeah, despite grinding a lot of videos on the matchup and reading what's been posted here and in the skype group I still feel I could (or should) be beating him. Any more advice on playing the neutral vs sheik (or in general), play to avoid getting grabbed at low %s and tilted all the time maybe?