Wiseguy
Smash Champion
How can Marth be Mr. Fire Emblem if the majority of Fire Emblem fans haven't played his game?
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Ike vs Marth
- Thread starter Kalypso
- Start date
Hallowed Storm
Smash Journeyman
Hm. I'd like to see both of them in the game. I like Marth's gracefulness- just the way he handles the sword is a mind game when the person you are fighting doesn't know what to expect.
Ike seems like he would be a very cool character also. He is an international character, and he also looks pretty cool (only that has nothing to do with how he fights, and I'd rather have a character that fights good than one that looks cool).
If there was a blob of dark green sludge as a strong playable character, I'd use it, regardless of looks.
Ike seems like he would be a very cool character also. He is an international character, and he also looks pretty cool (only that has nothing to do with how he fights, and I'd rather have a character that fights good than one that looks cool).
If there was a blob of dark green sludge as a strong playable character, I'd use it, regardless of looks.
ClarkJables
Smash Lord
well i see ganondorf using a mix between swordplay, magic, and hand-to-hand combat which could leave a nich for black knight
:034:
Smash Hero
I'd rather have both characters. But if I have to pick between the two, I'll have to go with Ike.
ClarkJables
Smash Lord
i think thats how everyone feels
Link Sharingan
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 25, 2007
- Messages
- 552
i say Ike because he dont have a tiara and his desing is supior than marth
ClarkJables
Smash Lord
yep thats what everyone says
Kabyk-Greenmyst
Smash Lord
I don't much care for either, but I have to choose Ike for solely 2 reasons:
1) I've played Ike's game, haven't played Marth's 2.
2) Ike doesn't wear a tiara, no matter his status.
1) I've played Ike's game, haven't played Marth's 2.
2) Ike doesn't wear a tiara, no matter his status.
Salaad
Smash Ace
I would go for both, even though I see people hate Marth. Ike does look much stronger, but that worries me into thinking he'll be just like Roy..I'm pretty sure both will return because Brawl looks like it's going to have 2 representatives from each franchise. I do agree with one thing, Ike looks badass, but Marth still doesn't look like a pansy to me. xD
ClarkJables
Smash Lord
they don't hate both, they just prefer ike to marth
FreakingMethodiC
Smash Journeyman
I say they give Ike Aether for his final smash, and replace marth. OR dont make him a marth clone and include them BOTH, cus Ike has that nice sword of his 
.
.Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
@Wiseguy: I kinda doubt that Marth will be nerfed.One can say that his moveset was very cheap in Melee,but in general it really isn't.I main Marth(Competatively),and I can say that you can't win with him just because you can swing a sword.
Marth has advatages,but he also has many disadvantages:
-His F-smash can only kill well at the tip(Which requiers spacing).
-His entire play style revolves around spacing
-Alot of his moves contain aot of lag
-No projectile
-No vertical kill cabability.
Because you see a pro play with Marth well doesn't make him cheap,it's because he knows what he's doing.The average player in competative play usually loses with Marth because of the lack of experiance.
You can't call a character cheap because you see someone else do it,you have to have personal experiance.
The only character that I can say that is cheap to an extent is Shiek.Even though I don't want her removed,I can admit some of the priority on her movs are over the top.
Also,why do people hate Marth's tiara so much? I see nothing wring with it. >_>
Marth has advatages,but he also has many disadvantages:
-His F-smash can only kill well at the tip(Which requiers spacing).
-His entire play style revolves around spacing
-Alot of his moves contain aot of lag
-No projectile
-No vertical kill cabability.
Because you see a pro play with Marth well doesn't make him cheap,it's because he knows what he's doing.The average player in competative play usually loses with Marth because of the lack of experiance.
You can't call a character cheap because you see someone else do it,you have to have personal experiance.
The only character that I can say that is cheap to an extent is Shiek.Even though I don't want her removed,I can admit some of the priority on her movs are over the top.
Also,why do people hate Marth's tiara so much? I see nothing wring with it. >_>
Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
Nor do you want me to scream hypocrite.
ClarkJables
Smash Lord
hey shuma nice deathborn sig
RBinator
Smash Journeyman
I guess I'm gonna be one of the few defending Marth here. Maybe my points will lead to more of a debate rather then a one-sided discussion, not that I mean that in a bad way.
1. So he doesn't look much like a man, so what? What's wrong with a man that kinda looks like a woman, especially when most of the male characters in Melee and those we seen so far in Brawl are at least quite a bit manly (at least the human characters)?
2. I have to really disagree with Marth not doing much for Fire Emblem in America. I dare say that he (along with Roy) was the whole reason that many Americans even heard of Fire Emblem in the first place, which in turn likely got Nintendo to decide to bring it over to America. If it wasn't for that, I don't think we were even have this topic right now. Why get rid of the first star of the series, plus the guy that likely help bring the series to America in the first place? I would say Marth did a great deal for America and doesn't just mean something only to Japan, even if we didn't get English versions of his two games.
3. One of the main reasons Marth may be popular is because of his move set, but why get rid of an unique move set? No, I'm not talking about it's power, I'm talking about how differently it plays, one of the examples being as someone brought up, spacing due to his pretty small sweet spot. Even if it does get toned down (it did in the PAL version of Melee, at least the dair), I think it should be kept around. I also think it would be pointless to replace a character with another character with a very similar move set, not that I see it really happening in this topic, with the talk of how differently Ike could play. Except for his grabs, Marth is basically a pure swordsman.
4. To be competed. I kinda forgot where I was gonna go from here, but I guess replies to this will help finish it.
5+. See above.
And BTW, I have played and finished FE: PoR, so it's not like I don't know much about Ike or the Black Knight who somehow got mixed into this discussion.
1. So he doesn't look much like a man, so what? What's wrong with a man that kinda looks like a woman, especially when most of the male characters in Melee and those we seen so far in Brawl are at least quite a bit manly (at least the human characters)?
2. I have to really disagree with Marth not doing much for Fire Emblem in America. I dare say that he (along with Roy) was the whole reason that many Americans even heard of Fire Emblem in the first place, which in turn likely got Nintendo to decide to bring it over to America. If it wasn't for that, I don't think we were even have this topic right now. Why get rid of the first star of the series, plus the guy that likely help bring the series to America in the first place? I would say Marth did a great deal for America and doesn't just mean something only to Japan, even if we didn't get English versions of his two games.
3. One of the main reasons Marth may be popular is because of his move set, but why get rid of an unique move set? No, I'm not talking about it's power, I'm talking about how differently it plays, one of the examples being as someone brought up, spacing due to his pretty small sweet spot. Even if it does get toned down (it did in the PAL version of Melee, at least the dair), I think it should be kept around. I also think it would be pointless to replace a character with another character with a very similar move set, not that I see it really happening in this topic, with the talk of how differently Ike could play. Except for his grabs, Marth is basically a pure swordsman.
4. To be competed. I kinda forgot where I was gonna go from here, but I guess replies to this will help finish it.
5+. See above.
And BTW, I have played and finished FE: PoR, so it's not like I don't know much about Ike or the Black Knight who somehow got mixed into this discussion.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
I agree with most of the above post, but I'd like to tweak your first point. It's okay for a Japanese Swordsman to look feminine (not sure if I spelled that right), because that's how about half of the swordsmen in animes look. Take Samurai X (also known as Rurouni Kenshin). Batosai the Manslayer had quite a woman-like face but that's part of the apeal since it showed that he wasn't all that physically strong and yet he was still slicing straight through people (at least he did in the movie. In the series he switches to a reverse blade sword and vows to never kill again) The point of that feminine physique is to put more importance on the sword, rather than the character.
Marth's style is all about spacing and control (mainly due to his sweetspot.) He is nothing like Roy, dispite having the same moveset. Anyone who has seen a good Roy will notice just how differently you have to play with him, almost as if you're switching from Fox to Falco.
I say that BOTH Marth and Ike should be included in brawl (along with up to two other FE characters)
My FE dream team is
1. Marth
2. Ike (unlockable character, complete Marth's story)
3. Black Knight (complete Ike and Micaiah's storys)
4.Micaiah (complete more than 10 characters' storys)
Marth of course would be a starting character because everybody already knows him and would likely play him.
Ike would be unlocked by completing Marth's story, which will likely be done early on due to Marth's popularity. This would encourage people to play Ike because you unlock him by playing an already liked character. They'll likely be curious to how this new swordsman plays.
Micaiah would be unlocked after already getting through a bunch of character's storylines. By then they would've probably already unlocked Ike and they'd have played through his story, but not unlocked anybody. It'd be interesting to see this new break in the trend. A FE character that wasn't unlocked when you used the other two and also doesn't have a sword. Very interesting
The Black Knight would be unlocked after you've completed the two related (storywise) character's stories. By the time you unlock him, you'd have already completed all the other FE character's stories. They save the best for last, and making your last FE unlockable a villan would be pretty sweet.
Marth's style is all about spacing and control (mainly due to his sweetspot.) He is nothing like Roy, dispite having the same moveset. Anyone who has seen a good Roy will notice just how differently you have to play with him, almost as if you're switching from Fox to Falco.
I say that BOTH Marth and Ike should be included in brawl (along with up to two other FE characters)
My FE dream team is
1. Marth
2. Ike (unlockable character, complete Marth's story)
3. Black Knight (complete Ike and Micaiah's storys)
4.Micaiah (complete more than 10 characters' storys)
Marth of course would be a starting character because everybody already knows him and would likely play him.
Ike would be unlocked by completing Marth's story, which will likely be done early on due to Marth's popularity. This would encourage people to play Ike because you unlock him by playing an already liked character. They'll likely be curious to how this new swordsman plays.
Micaiah would be unlocked after already getting through a bunch of character's storylines. By then they would've probably already unlocked Ike and they'd have played through his story, but not unlocked anybody. It'd be interesting to see this new break in the trend. A FE character that wasn't unlocked when you used the other two and also doesn't have a sword. Very interesting
The Black Knight would be unlocked after you've completed the two related (storywise) character's stories. By the time you unlock him, you'd have already completed all the other FE character's stories. They save the best for last, and making your last FE unlockable a villan would be pretty sweet.
Wiseguy
Smash Champion
Marth isn't the most broken character in the game, but he is still up there. In comparison to characters like Mario (who's strnegths and weaknesses balance out) Marth has a definite edage, though he's not invincible by any strentch of the imagination.
I'm not saying that Marth doesn't require skill to play, or that he is impossibleto defeat. All I mean is that things like his massive hit box and powerful arial attacks give him a slight edge against an equally skilled opponent using a non-high tier character. That is why he should be nerfed - just as Ness and Kirby were in the transition from SSB64 to Melee.
But yeah, skill still trumps all. Whining that you lost to someone becuase they chose a high tier character is just being a poor sport.
I agree. Different points of view is what makes a thread interesting.
Well, it just comes down to personal taste. Some people might prefer Marth's look. That's fine, everyone is entitled to an opinion.
Personally, I can't stand the girly-man RPG characters that come from Japan. I like games where the men are men, the women are women and those who aren't sure keep quiet about it. Ike is the Solid Snake to Marth's Raiden. He is far cooler in every concievable way.
Yes, Marth and Roy both deserve credit for convincing Nintendo to bring one of their best series worldwide. Hat's off to them. Mission accomplaished.
However, now that FE is a global franchise representatives of the franchise should be selected based on this new, global fanbase. And since Ike's games are popular worldwide - he is a far more worthy representative of the series than Japanese-only characters like Marth and Roy.
Keep in mind that Marth's moveset is almost entirely made from scratch. They could have, and still could, give it to almost any FE lord - even Ike. Just change Marth's vertical slashes to horizontal ones and give him a ranged B attack and you have a moveset that would work perfectly for Ike.
Okay. I'll black out any spoilers then. I strongly recomend playing PoR. Best RPG on the Cube.
As long as Ike and at least one other FE character (BK or Miciaiah, probably) get's in as well I could live with Marth's inclusion. Four FE characters in Brawl would be beyond great. I'm not sure how likely that is though.
Worse case scenario, SW. ONE Fire Emblem character can be in Brawl. Ike or Marth?
Salaad
Smash Ace
I would like Marth and Ike, but I'm afraid of Ike being another Roy. =X
Marth4Lyfe.
LikeIke. xD
Marth4Lyfe.
LikeIke. xD
Inkslinger
Smash Ace
Funny if both make it but then Ike becomes the roy of the pair. People will change their perspective towards him.
Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
Oh another thing,don't complain if we get a character that's only popular in Japan.Because after all,we do have Samus in Brawl,and she is disliked in Japan(Greatly).
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
I really regret to say this, but in the worst case scenerio, where only ONE FE character makes it, Ike would be the overall best choice. I only put him over Marth because of his overall importance to the FE franchise. Marth is definetly up there, and I consider him a very strong second, but Ike is just as popular (though by a different fanbase for the most part).
Even if they were to literally just change the vertical slashes to horizontal ones Ike and Marth would be very different. That's because of the kind of hitboxes arcing moves provide. Take Marth's fair for example. With the way it arcs it'll hit above your head a lot sooner then it will hit below you (yes it does hit in those places) and thus you have to time your attack accordingly. Another thing that makes it different than a horizontal slash is it's variating swetspot positions. With a horizontall slash the only way you could tip it is to be a certain distance from your opponent horizontally. With vertical slashes you could also lower your height and time your attack to hit sooner so it would hit higher in the arc. Marth's hit boxes also start small and grow to the peak of his actual movement and then shrink. That means the sweetspot changes overall distance as well (which you notice most with his F-smash).
Horizontal slashes don't have nearly as much versitality as Vertical ones in a 2-D fighter.
IMO, Ike is not similar enough to Marth to be a replacement, but he deserves to be a character in Brawl in his own right. I'm hoping that they both turn out to be great characters (though Marth will most likely not be high tier), because I plan to play them both. I also hope that Marth doesn't get nerfed to the extent that Ness and Kirby got nerfed from SSB64 to SSBM. It would be much better to take the PAL version of Marth and tweak him just a little bit. Weaken the F-smash, lower the actual damage of his attacks (12% for his fair is just rediculous because of how much he can chain it) and lower the stun on his fair and utilt (only a little bit though so that he can still get decent combos, just not as long.) If anyone has more suggestions for nerfing Marth without destroying him I'd be glad to hear them.
Even if they were to literally just change the vertical slashes to horizontal ones Ike and Marth would be very different. That's because of the kind of hitboxes arcing moves provide. Take Marth's fair for example. With the way it arcs it'll hit above your head a lot sooner then it will hit below you (yes it does hit in those places) and thus you have to time your attack accordingly. Another thing that makes it different than a horizontal slash is it's variating swetspot positions. With a horizontall slash the only way you could tip it is to be a certain distance from your opponent horizontally. With vertical slashes you could also lower your height and time your attack to hit sooner so it would hit higher in the arc. Marth's hit boxes also start small and grow to the peak of his actual movement and then shrink. That means the sweetspot changes overall distance as well (which you notice most with his F-smash).
Horizontal slashes don't have nearly as much versitality as Vertical ones in a 2-D fighter.
IMO, Ike is not similar enough to Marth to be a replacement, but he deserves to be a character in Brawl in his own right. I'm hoping that they both turn out to be great characters (though Marth will most likely not be high tier), because I plan to play them both. I also hope that Marth doesn't get nerfed to the extent that Ness and Kirby got nerfed from SSB64 to SSBM. It would be much better to take the PAL version of Marth and tweak him just a little bit. Weaken the F-smash, lower the actual damage of his attacks (12% for his fair is just rediculous because of how much he can chain it) and lower the stun on his fair and utilt (only a little bit though so that he can still get decent combos, just not as long.) If anyone has more suggestions for nerfing Marth without destroying him I'd be glad to hear them.
Marth is the only hero to ever return in multiple games, in the anime he was the main character... Marth is just you know the FE guy.
That would of been my argument before I played the ne FE. Ike is the man, his sword stance alone is enough to put him in, can't wait to see what they do with the guy. but on that same note I would be surprized if the kept marth in the game as well.
That would of been my argument before I played the ne FE. Ike is the man, his sword stance alone is enough to put him in, can't wait to see what they do with the guy. but on that same note I would be surprized if the kept marth in the game as well.
ClarkJables
Smash Lord
well sakurai said he wasn't going to put to many japan only characters, but if he had to choose one id say he'd choose stafy, mainly because of stafy's fanbase and that if stafy was in they'd port his GBA titles to america
Wiseguy
Smash Champion
Yeah, but at least all the Metroid games were RELEASED in Japan. Also, I think Metroid was popular in japan back in the day...
That's big of you, man. That must have been tough coming from a diehard Marth fan such as yourself.
Alright, I'll conceed that the horizontal thing would change the moveset fairly drastically - though I think it could be similar enough that Marth fans wouldn't feel totally betrayed in Ike were to replace him.
Objectively speaking, Marth does stand a good shot of returning, and hopefully they don't gimp him to the same extent that they did Ness. That would be just cruel.
Ike has starred in multiple games. Path of Radiance and the sequel: Goddess of Dawn.
ClarkJables
Smash Lord
they should beef ness up, and i never got his b moves
i mean pk fire was good, and the little blue ball was nice and i can only assume that the shield reflected projectiles, but what was that green thing that went up in the air and exploded
i mean pk fire was good, and the little blue ball was nice and i can only assume that the shield reflected projectiles, but what was that green thing that went up in the air and exploded
Wrath`
Smash Master
i'll main whatever FE character they put in,i dont care. is there a new lord in this new FE game? if there is i bet it will be an advertisment character.
Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
I think that it's possible for both Marth and Ike to make it.
Marth for his great popularity and overall position as a Fire Emblem symbol.
Ike for his world wide popularity.
This,in my opinion,is possible.
Marth for his great popularity and overall position as a Fire Emblem symbol.
Ike for his world wide popularity.
This,in my opinion,is possible.
Jabroni
Smash Cadet
As only playing a fire emblam game for an hour or so i hared it so i chose marth.
Also i chose marth because he's a differant kind of cool making him cooler than a generic ike IMO. I say this because of the hair.
Also i chose marth because he's a differant kind of cool making him cooler than a generic ike IMO. I say this because of the hair.
RBinator
Smash Journeyman
Just because he helped bring Fire Emblem outside of Japan doesn't mean he has to go. It's not like we can't have both can't we? One to symbolize the start of the series and another as the global hero.
It's not like we can only have one representative. Due to Melee, Marth isn't quite Japanese-only anymore, even if he started that way. Not to mention he's the main hero of the series or at least the first one. I believe the only time where a character that gotten in Smash that wasn't the first hero was Ness from EarthBound, which was really Mother 2. Speaking of which, since I brought it up, let's not get into the Ness and Lucas debate here.
But that brings me to the point of what's the point of replacing a character with someone else to give them almost the same move set? Why not just give the new character a new move set? Speaking of Marth's move set, with the long range plus disjointed hitbox, is there really a need for a projectile? Changing the moves to horizontal from vertical would give Ike the Luigi treatment, but that still brings me back to my first point.
Didn't I just said I beaten PoR?
Seems too much like a what if to me. With how popular FE gotten since Melee, how could they go from two to only one playable FE character?
Wiseguy
Smash Champion
I'm not saying Marth and Roy should be cut becuase of their role in brining FE worldwide. If anything, that is the only legitament reason why they should return. What I was trying to say is that this reason alone is not enough to justify a return appearance.
We CAN have both, sure. But given the limited number of slots that will be given to FE characters, I would rather have characters who are popular to BOTH Japanese FE fan and non-Japanese FE fans.
One FE character is pretty pessimistic. Two at the least is what I anticipate.
Marth is Japanese only where it counts - his series of origin. All characters should be judged first and foremost on thier importance in their franchise, and in my view Marth is longer worthy to represent Fire Emblem. He hasn't starred in a FE game in over a decade and most of the Earth's population have been unable to purchase either of his games without importing.
Marth and Roy are fine characters, and they will no doubt be fondly rememered if and when they are cut - however, there are more than enough characters in the universally popular PoR and it's upcoming sequel that we no longer need the characters.
Again, this is just my opinion. For all I know, Sakurai feels as you do.
And don't worry, I'll not bring up the Ness/Lucas debate here.
Modifying an old moveset for a new character is justifiable if the replacement character is a significantly more worthy addition to the roster, as Ike is. I would aslo argue that having two characters two characters who are as similar as Ike and Marth is unnecessary given that there are far more unique characters from the series that couold be included instead if they wanted to include two characters with unique movesets.
Urgh.. indeed you did. That'll learn me to respond to posts late at night...
Well, this is the Ike vs. Marth thread. I was creating a purely hypothetical scenario, in order to make people consider which character is more worthy of being included in the Brawl roster.
Osi
Smash Ace
I doubt only 1 FE character gets in, but I'd like 2 new ones. Marth and Roy did their job well. They sold games in a new area, and were fun to play. I think adding 2 different FE characters can do nothing but expand the brand. I'd like them all to be in with 4 slots... but that is not likely. I'd be in favor of Ike and a more useful roy personally.