Ike Moveset Speculation/Discussion

[Deleted member]

Yes.

Someone make a Smash 4 version of this:

 

[FlareHabanero]

It seems like Ike's attacks in general got some speed increases.

Are his tilts in particular more effective?

 

[One Handed Sword]

Someone make a Smash 4 version of this:

That video is so godlike.

 

[Xuan Wu]

Bleh, that really sucks. Ike seems really weak in Sm4sh right now... this was one change I was hoping would occur to help him out. I will still give him a shot, but all signs point to him being too weak again.

No worries. False has demonstrated a few things Ike may still be capable of in the following video.

- Autocancelling properties retained in N-air? (0:30)
- Reverse aerial rush (RAR) still possible? (1:35)
- D-throw to Aether guaranteed at low percent? (1:55)
- Can still edge hop with F-air. (3:24)

I think recovery would be our main concern for Ike if it is true Aether no longer works backward on edges. Edge mechanics seem unchanged from SSBB, seeing how Lucina was able to grab the edge while facing the opposite direction at 0:35. Surely, Ike should be able to do the same.

We have yet to have an actual Ike main making such confirmations above, though. A full comparison to his SSBB counterpart would definitely be nice.

^-^

 

[Ultima777]

No worries. False has demonstrated a few things Ike may still be capable of in the following video.

- Autocancelling properties retained in N-air? (0:30)
- Reverse aerial rush (RAR) still possible? (1:35)
- D-throw to Aether guaranteed at low percent? (1:55)
- Can still edge hop with F-air. (3:24)

I think recovery would be our main concern for Ike if it is true Aether no longer works backward on edges. Edge mechanics seem unchanged from SSBB, seeing how Lucina was able to grab the edge while facing the opposite direction at 0:35. Surely, Ike should be able to do the same.

We have yet to have an actual Ike main making such confirmations above, though. A full comparison to his SSBB counterpart would definitely be nice.

^-^

Yeah I think this is a good example of how Ike could be good. This is why I uploaded it. :D

 

[Blubolouis]

Edge mechanics seem unchanged from SSBB, seeing how Lucina was able to grab the edge while facing the opposite direction at 0:35. Surely, Ike should be able to do the same.

Who knows, kirby couldn't grab the edge while facing in the wrong direction in Brawl, so maybe put Ike at the same level, since their recoveries are similar.

Edit after watching the video: loved what I saw at 1:20, frame-trapping people with Utilt, punishing their dodge... It was a dream in brawl, here it is.

It's here again at 3:00

Ike can do fall-off dair as we see at 2:15, and still make it make, jut like in brawl. Actually, I think overall running off with aerials will be stronger in this game, since the opponent can't edgehog you if you fail. It might be good for Ike, too bad the range on his fair got nerfed, there wouldn't have been a lot of aerials able to outrange it.

 

[TX7Killian]

i dont like how ikes fair looks. maybe im just over exaggerating, but its not rly looking faster and on top of that it looks like they nerfed its range. i rly hope they didnt and its just looking that way cause ike is bigger now

 

[san.]

I dislike it, too. It seems to have no range, maybe as bad as nair to be honest. Fair was already difficult enough to use at high level Brawl. It's probably just going to be a kill move instead of a spacing move in this game.

 

[Vulcan]

I think recovery would be our main concern for Ike if it is true Aether no longer works backward on edges. Edge mechanics seem unchanged from SSBB, seeing how Lucina was able to grab the edge while facing the opposite direction at 0:35. Surely, Ike should be able to do the same.

Thanks for the video. Thats my biggest concern too, which is why I was hoping side-b wouldnt cause freefall. Side
-B into Aether would really help his recovery problems, since if knocked directly sideways he is still seems boned. Watched a Ganon side-tilt a Ike to death at ~80% because he just couldnt recover horizontally.

 

[A2ZOMG]

No worries. False has demonstrated a few things Ike may still be capable of in the following video.

- Autocancelling properties retained in N-air? (0:30)
- Reverse aerial rush (RAR) still possible? (1:35)
- D-throw to Aether guaranteed at low percent? (1:55)
- Can still edge hop with F-air. (3:24)

I think recovery would be our main concern for Ike if it is true Aether no longer works backward on edges. Edge mechanics seem unchanged from SSBB, seeing how Lucina was able to grab the edge while facing the opposite direction at 0:35. Surely, Ike should be able to do the same.

We have yet to have an actual Ike main making such confirmations above, though. A full comparison to his SSBB counterpart would definitely be nice.

^-^

The Lucina made some pretty bad choices for ground game overall, but the video is a good example of how the physics changes benefit Ike significantly. U-tilt is pretty legit for land trapping people because even if they airdodge it (which can be forced, given the hibox is pretty hard to contest), you get a free Jab on them (and there hasn't yet been much done to explore Jab cancel followups in Smash 4, I particularly want to know if Jab cancel D-tilt is viable). Also edgeugarding with Ike is a bit better given edgehogging is out of the game, so you can make slightly riskier plays offstage.

D-throw Aether evidently seems to be a reliable combo at 0? Pretty useful to know.

 

[Chis]

No worries. False has demonstrated a few things Ike may still be capable of in the following video.

Is it just me or does Ike have less killing power now? It feels like that Bair at ~140% and Dtilt should have killed.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Is it just me or does Ike have less killing power now? It feels like that Bair at ~140% and Dtilt should have killed.

Yeah, seems like it. Though it's a fair tradeoff for faster tilts, less vulnerability to edgehogging, and more viable juggles. Ike seems like a balanced character in this game.

Gameplan hasn't changed, except covering landings is far more reliable, and tilts are much safer in midrange than they were previously, a range at where Ike traditionally has had limited options outside of being in Jab range. Jab does a lot less damage, but I assume Jab cancel combos still exist.

I'm interested in hearing ways D-smash and D-tilt can be set up, because both those moves are a lot more powerful in this game. D-tilt hits people out horizontally, which is good for positional advantage and some edgeguard/gimp setups. D-smash now does 18 damage uncharged, which means if you can Jab cancel into it, you want to do that a lot.

 

[Xuan Wu]

Has Ike's D-air been discussed yet?

Someone please tell me my eyes are deceiving me. Did Ike seriously lose two meteor smashes?! First D-tilt, and now, even D-air?! This can be seen at about 5:05 in the following video.

Have the properties of his D-air hitbox been changed? I am very sure the D-air connected during the initial attack hitbox.

*sigh*

 

[A2ZOMG]

Dunno if D-air might spike closer to the tip of the sword, but I guess it might not spike anymore. Not exactly a huge problem given Ike's edgeguarding is still limited but his aerials still have above average knockback meaning you can still potentially kill people pretty reliably if you can hit them while they're offstage. More importantly, D-tilt actually looks like a usable poke, and puts people offstage.

 

[Xuan Wu]

Dunno if D-air might spike closer to the tip of the sword, but I guess it might not spike anymore. Not exactly a huge problem given Ike's edgeguarding is still limited but his aerials still have above average knockback meaning you can still potentially kill people pretty reliably if you can hit them while they're offstage. More importantly, D-tilt actually looks like a usable poke, and puts people offstage.

Possible sweetspot for D-air now, huh? I hope you're right. ^-^

And, yes. D-tilt looks more viable now.

 

[Ffamran]

Dunno if D-air might spike closer to the tip of the sword, but I guess it might not spike anymore. Not exactly a huge problem given Ike's edgeguarding is still limited but his aerials still have above average knockback meaning you can still potentially kill people pretty reliably if you can hit them while they're offstage. More importantly, D-tilt actually looks like a usable poke, and puts people offstage.

That might seem true since the other Ike was hit near the hilt of Ragnell rather than the blade. Wasn't this the same thing with Ganondorf's and Captain Falcon's dair where if you hit too close, it won't do anything besides cause damage?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I checked the video a bit more carefully. At 4:45, Ike DOES land a meteor on a grounded opponent. So more likely, it's probably a hitbox specific thing.

And yes, Falcon and Ganon as I've heard still have similar mechanics on their D-airs where the upper hitboxes don't spike.

 

[san.]

I saw a guy on stream spike with it. I guess it doesn't spike if it hits above the lower half of the sword or something.

 

[meleebrawler]

It still does, unfortunately. At least it seems to have less ending lag now. ^-^

But... Smash wiki says it doesn't...

 

[A2ZOMG]

But... Smash wiki says it doesn't...

Smashwiki has a TON of errors currently and also is of course massively incomplete for this game. I'd wait at least a month before putting faith in collected information there.

 

[Xuan Wu]

But... Smash wiki says it doesn't...

It's a claim the some others have made based on early footage, which does look true to me. Smash Wiki has yet to include more information as well as fix some errors; for example, if you look at Ike's SSB4 page, you will see it list Quick Draw as a buff that no longer puts Ike at helpless state in the air, which is false.

^-^

 

[Ffamran]

Quick question: Quick Draw's much quicker now, right?

 

[san.]

Doesn't seem like it.

Ike's jab seems pretty bad after it stales. It doesn't seem to have much hitstun if you use it too much.

Edit: I want to say it's like this for most weaker moves. Staling is powerful in this game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Doesn't seem like it.

Ike's jab seems pretty bad after it stales. It doesn't seem to have much hitstun if you use it too much.

Edit: I want to say it's like this for most weaker moves. Staling is powerful in this game.

Meaning staling actually affects base knockback now? That would be pretty significant.

 

[san.]

The Ike I saw on stream couldn't get the third hit of jab to hit Greninja after a few times (he was only hitting with jab). Greninja just shielded it. He then tried to only use the first 2 hits and grab, but Greninja grabbed him instead. If Ike can jab cancel like Brawl then he can still use his first 1-2 reliably, but it's mostly looking like 1-2-3 then hit with another move until we can get some Brawl Ike mains to confirm.

Edit: Using Mario's jab in the demo, that doesn't seem to be the case. I think it may just be DI near the end of the hitbox.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

You CAN jab cancel, but it's tight as **** and there's more lag after jab 1 if you cancel it.

Fair is different. Feels good (although I don't think it is as good a move), but is massively different and greatly effects how I can play him. Nair is still great. Bair is still great and has the autocancel from short hop. Quickdraw goes holy god what the **** far after charge because it carries momentum better.

Ask questions and I can try and help. All together, he has a lot of the pieces that he had from Brawl, but the changes to air dodges, jab canceling, and Fair make him feel odd.

Someone make a Smash 4 version of this:

Sitting next to the Marth, I can confirm that both of them will be playing this game, so it's only a matter of time.

Thought to be fair, it looks like it may happen to Robin this time around.

 

[Captain Fun]

You CAN jab cancel, but it's tight as **** and there's more lag after jab 1 if you cancel it.

Fair is different. Feels good (although I don't think it is as good a move), but is massively different and greatly effects how I can play him. Nair is still great. Bair is still great and has the autocancel from short hop. Quickdraw goes holy god what the **** far after charge because it carries momentum better.

Ask questions and I can try and help. All together, he has a lot of the pieces that he had from Brawl, but the changes to air dodges, jab canceling, and Fair make him feel odd.


Sitting next to the Marth, I can confirm that both of them will be playing this game, so it's only a matter of time.

Thought to be fair, it looks like it may happen to Robin this time around.

How would you say the changes to the game mechanics effect Ike? Do they make him better? Worse? You mentioned certain changes that feel odd, but what does odd mean here?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Dunno. People having lag and having to land near Ike will mean his move set is even more terrifying when it comes to punishing air dodges. However, Ike relied very heavily on air dodging himself in Brawl and that's all but out the window in neutral. Jab cancelling being worse is a direct nerf. Ike gets bodied if he can't jab cancel. He loses access to half his boxing game.

Throw changes don't really effect him.

Pivot cancelling is amazing though. Your FTilt start-up, D-Tilt start-up, and D-Tilt recovery buffs make it even more potent, not to mention run back FSmash and USmash.

Ledge mechanics are a god send because it makes you a ***** to edge guard and you're pretty good at trapping people at the ledge or forcing them into making a bad decision where you can make the read, so not having invincibility helps you there. However, with air dodge nerfs, your ledge game is abysmal because of that same thing.

Jury's out. Ike's a mixed back. He relies heavily on system mechanics in Brawl, but also profits immensely from the opponent not having access to those tools.

 

[Xuan Wu]

You CAN jab cancel, but it's tight as **** and there's more lag after jab 1 if you cancel it.

Fair is different. Feels good (although I don't think it is as good a move), but is massively different and greatly effects how I can play him. Nair is still great. Bair is still great and has the autocancel from short hop. Quickdraw goes holy god what the **** far after charge because it carries momentum better.

Ask questions and I can try and help. All together, he has a lot of the pieces that he had from Brawl, but the changes to air dodges, jab canceling, and Fair make him feel odd.


Sitting next to the Marth, I can confirm that both of them will be playing this game, so it's only a matter of time.

Thought to be fair, it looks like it may happen to Robin this time around.

Glad to hear his new F-air isn't trash. Can you confirm the knockback trajectories for both hits of Ike's D-smash? Do they still send foes flying vertically like in SSBB?

^-^

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I haven't REALLY used it since it was hard coded into me from Brawl to avoid that move, but from what I remember from testing it, it was still trash.

Can confirm shortly.

Double post to confirm that Ike's DSmash does indeed have the Sakurai angle on both hits.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Dunno. People having lag and having to land near Ike will mean his move set is even more terrifying when it comes to punishing air dodges. However, Ike relied very heavily on air dodging himself in Brawl and that's all but out the window in neutral. Jab cancelling being worse is a direct nerf. Ike gets bodied if he can't jab cancel. He loses access to half his boxing game.

idk man, Ike basically couldn't do anything to land on the ground safely anyway because people could just wait for you to land and then grab for the most part, so losing the option of airdodge for landing in that sense is pretty minor for Ike, whereas in contrast, saving your jump and reactively airdodging most of Ike's moves in Brawl meant you hit the ground safely and then Ike got no followup for putting people above him. So the way I see it, Ike gained more land trap options than other cast members, as the new system mechanics overall punish you significantly less for using laggy moves to juggle people.

The fact Ike still has a counter in that respect is actually highly significant, because it's an option to escape juggles that other cast members don't have. Not that it stops people from grabbing you, but it's something that has to be respected from Ike specifically. Basically, Ike always has been bad at landing, and the system mechanics don't change that. But being harder to land against Ike is overall a net buff.

Also even if D-smash still has a terrible hitbox, it now does 18 damage (on both hits as I recall), so you want to use it for punishes whenever applicable. I guess from what I'm hearing, Jab cancel D-smash is a no?

 

[Xuan Wu]

Dang it. I guess U-smash still overshadows it greatly. Thanks for the confirmation, though. ^-^

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

idk man, Ike basically couldn't do anything to land on the ground safely anyway because people could just wait for you to land and then grab for the most part, so losing the option of airdodge for landing in that sense is pretty minor for Ike, whereas in contrast, saving your jump and reactively airdodging most of Ike's moves in Brawl meant you hit the ground safely and then you got no followup for putting people above you. So the way I see it, Ike gained more land trap options than other cast members, as the new system mechanics overall punish you significantly less for using laggy moves to juggle people.

The fact Ike still has a counter in that respect is actually highly significant, because it's an option to escape juggles that other cast members don't have. Not that it stops people from grabbing you, but it's something that has to be respected from Ike specifically.

I'm not talking about landing. Think about getting off the ledge with a nerfed air dodge and no invul. Think about getting through projectiles. I'm not talking about juggles here.

On the subject of counter: basically every counter that isn't Palutena's terrifies me.

 

[A2ZOMG]

As I recall, most character projectiles in this game are considerably nerfed. So in terms of matchups, that's something that overall should be less problematic.

Hmmm, I guess ledgetrapping sounds OP. Sounds like to me something most of the cast has to deal with, but you can correct me.

 

[Ffamran]

Double post to confirm that Ike's DSmash does indeed have the Sakurai angle on both hits.

Sakurai angle?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sakurai angle?

Effectively a standard 45ish degree knockback except at low percents where it sends people sideways and doesn't pop them off the ground, meaning they don't suffer hard landing lag.

A lot of moves would be really OP if they only knocked you at 45 degree angles at all percents, because of hard landing lag creating massive frame advantages. And in contrast, 0 degree angle knockback can be really buggy. Seen how Jiggs D-smash interacts with Corneria?

 

[Ffamran]

Effectively a standard 45ish degree knockback except at low percents where it sends people sideways and doesn't pop them off the ground, meaning they don't suffer hard landing lag.

A lot of moves would be really OP if they only knocked you at 45 degree angles at all percents, because of hard landing lag creating massive frame advantages. And in contrast, 0 degree angle knockback can be really buggy. Seen how Jiggs D-smash interacts with Corneria?

So why is it named after Sakurai? Is it because he's crooked or something?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I should have specified. My mistake.

 

[Acrete]

I Ike looked good in the clips i've seen but whats the general consensus around here? Will he play worse, as well or better than in brawl?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

As I recall, most character projectiles in this game are considerably nerfed. So in terms of matchups, that's something that overall should be less problematic.

Hmmm, I guess ledgetrapping sounds OP. Sounds like to me something most of the cast has to deal with, but you can correct me.

Try Toon Link. Little bugger is pretty much the same character. There are also pills, which are pretty solid. Then there's Link, Pikachu, Robin, maybe Duck Hunt, Villager, etc.

And yeah, most of the cast has to deal with ledge trapping, but Ike lacks the quick aerials or godlike rolls/jumps to help mitigate it. It'll be bad regardless of whether the entire cast has to deal with it.

Once again, as I fear I may sound gloom and doom by defending my point, I would like to reiterate that I am not sure whether he will benefit or suffer more from the changes, but that it will be some of both.