Ike is overrated but underpowered

[Strivus]

.....Well you're sure as hell not going to Aether when you're not close to the ledge.


Once you get Ike at a diagonal angle away from the stage, GGz

You mean the KO zone? LOL

Most characters can't recover once their knocked their, hence the name KO zone.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

You mean the KO zone? LOL

Most characters can't recover once their knocked their, hence the name KO zone.

No......You obviously don't know what I meant

Imagine X as Ike, and O as the ledge


X-----------O


Now as you can see, Ike needs to travel a Horzontal distance to reach the ledge. What that other poster said is to not use Quick Draw as a way to recover. Now how exactly are you supposed to traverse this distance without the use of Quick Draw? You can't, trying to DI to a spot where you could Aether back onto the stage wouldn't work, as it would take far too much time to get into position and would fall to your death.


Basicially, Ike's recovery sucks, with or without Quick Draw. Ike blows overall as well.

 

[Betaz]

No......You obviously don't know what I meant

Imagine X as Ike, and O as the ledge


X-----------O


Now as you can see, Ike needs to travel a Horzontal distance to reach the ledge. What that other poster said is to not use Quick Draw as a way to recover. Now how exactly are you supposed to traverse this distance without the use of Quick Draw? You can't, trying to DI to a spot where you could Aether back onto the stage wouldn't work, as it would take far too much time to get into position and would fall to your death.


Basicially, Ike's recovery sucks, with or without Quick Draw. Ike blows overall as well.

not true, if you still have a second jump you can easily get back...if not then your screwed and should have QD'd way before the point you have shown, also on your point about positioning >.> I don't see how it would take long...also your using the term DI wrong...Directional Influence only occurs when suffering from knockback and you hold a direction oppisite/up/down (or the same way if you want to go farther :/)of the direction you are going. this is to change the direction/slow momenum in which you were knocked back, DI does not refer just moving through the air :embarrass

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

not true, if you still have a second jump you can easily get back...if not then your screwed and should have QD'd way before the point you have shown, also on your point about positioning >.> I don't see how it would take long...also your using the term DI wrong...Directional Influence only occurs when suffering from knockback and you hold a direction oppisite/up/down (or the same way if you want to go farther :/)of the direction you are going. this is to change the direction/slow momenum in which you were knocked back, DI does not refer just moving through the air :embarrass

Ok, you got me on the DI point >_>.

But the thing is, I've seem many Ikes get put in that situations where they are at a Straight away from the stage. The fact that QD can be stopped by either taking a blow, Airdodging right in front of it to stop the momentum,, or just grabbing the ledge. And yes, if you took too long moving into position for the Aether, you'd be out of veritcal range, thus, you losing a stock.

 

[Kirk]

No......You obviously don't know what I meant

Imagine X as Ike, and O as the ledge


X-----------O


Now as you can see, Ike needs to travel a Horzontal distance to reach the ledge. What that other poster said is to not use Quick Draw as a way to recover. Now how exactly are you supposed to traverse this distance without the use of Quick Draw? You can't, trying to DI to a spot where you could Aether back onto the stage wouldn't work, as it would take far too much time to get into position and would fall to your death.


Basicially, Ike's recovery sucks, with or without Quick Draw. Ike blows overall as well.

You wouldn't make it back with QD from there...assuming you weren't charging before hand. This is that 'KO Zone' Strivus pointed out earlier. If you did start charging before hand, you could make it back, but you also had the option of NOT charging and instead move yourself closer to the stage, in position to Aether to safety. And naturally there are variables, such as if you have a double jump or if someone is coming out to intercept you, which can be easily countered with some smart airdodging and aerial movement.

Regardless my argument still stands...If you're close enough to be able to make it back with Quick Draw, you can get back with Aether. Anything else is that 'KO zone.'

Edit:

And yes, if you took too long moving into position for the Aether, you'd be out of veritcal range, thus, you losing a stock.

KO zone. You wouldn't have made it back any way (E.G. Quick Draw) given what you have described.

 

[Empy]

... those two statements aren't even close to being the same and yes, Ike does get gimped during QD when he's fighting against people that actually know how to fight him.

Not if you know how to fight with him. Seriously, it's not that hard to just hold towards the stage and Aether. You also have airdodge and fair to defend yourself.

Also, Ike users should just DI up a lot. But this goes for a whole lot of characters. Ganon, Spacies, Lucario, Ness/Lucas/Yoshi, Marth, etc..

So yeah, just don't QD if you're trying to come back to the ledge, just use it to get to the middle of a stage or a platform, but not the ledge.

 

[Deleted member]

anyone who uses QD in an argument as to why Ike is bad has no idea what he/she is talking about in any fashion and should be ignored after this point.

Now onto actual material and content, gimping Ike is possible but not as easy as everyone says, he has tools to get around them (although I haven't found an answer to pit's shield yet). Ike is also difficult to combo, as he can usually just up B after the first hit, so he doesn't really get screwed by air dodge timings. Ike has some hard matches, but overall he's a solid character that can do very well, unlike power characters from the other 2 smash games.

 

[Kirk]

anyone who uses QD in an argument as to why Ike is bad has no idea what he/she is talking about in any fashion and should be ignored after this point.

Now onto actual material and content, gimping Ike is possible but not as easy as everyone says, he has tools to get around them (although I haven't found an answer to pit's shield yet). Ike is also difficult to combo, as he can usually just up B after the first hit, so he doesn't really get screwed by air dodge timings. Ike has some hard matches, but overall he's a solid character that can do very well, unlike power characters from the other 2 smash games.

Nice post.

I don't necessarily agree with using Aether to escape a combo, as you can just as easily be punished from the ending lag on the ground, putting yourself right back where you started...getting combo'd again. Naturally this depends on the positioning of both players and how fast they can get to you, but I generally tend NEVER to use Aether on the stage unless I'm certain I can get away with it.

As for Pit's shield, that's a tough one. The only thing I can suggest is to alter the timing of executing Aether, using it higher above and/or a bit away from the stage for example, to try and trip up and dodge Pit's shield. This depends on if you have the space necessary to do so, however. Altering the timing can help sometimes, since Pit's shield only reflects right when it is pulled out IIRC. If you don't have the option to space out Aether, then you just have to try and sweetspot the edge PERFECTLY. Otherwise there is not much you can do.

 

[Goodstyle]

No offense but Ike does suck. Gimping or not he's still arguably the second slowest character in the game.
He has almost no combos and yes his recovery does suck. Ike is overrated by many noobs and Umbreon is a prime example. You guys need to accept that your character sucks like the ganondorf boards or the Ike boards will end up as ****ed up as the Peach boards.

 

[JesiahTEG]

No offense but Ike does suck. Gimping or not he's still arguably the second slowest character in the game.
He has almost no combos and yes his recovery does suck. Ike is overrated by many noobs and Umbreon is a prime example. You guys need to accept that your character sucks like the ganondorf boards or the Ike boards will end up as ****ed up as the Peach boards.

Alright then, let's take a look at Umbreon's post shall we?

First off, he never said that Ike was amazing. I'm sure Umbreon is more aware than you about Ike being overrated. In fact, I'd argue that Umbreon is more aware of Ike in general than 99.9% of people on Smashboards. Not only is he a genius of a person, but he knows Ike inside and out.

Second, he's been playing Smash since 2004, with every professional from New York to California. Posting false information is not his style. Regardless of how experienced he is in regards to Smash as a whole, and the fact that he's very intelligent, point is he knows his character like the back of his hand. Don't argue with people that know more about the topic at hand than you do.

Ah, you joined last month...Nevermind, that explains everything.

 

[Empy]

stuff.

No, now go away.

 

[Falconv1.0]

uhh...erm..why is this thread still alive?

 

[Deleted member]

goodstyle, see the purple letters in my name? I'm one of ~50 people with it, it means I know stuff. Sit.

If you sincerely didn't want to offend me as the first 4 words of your post would suggest, you wouldn't label me a noob, which is intense irony since noob means "newbie" and you joined last month. Actually, if you want to make personal attacks, save it for a PM, a real life money match, or at least flame me so I can laugh when your *** gets banned. If you want to actually contribute so people don't ride your **** about being ********, you may do so at literally ANY part of this forum! You need to accept that starting a sentence with "you need to accept that" will probably lead into a condescending statement.

Jesiah: attack with words, not a comparison of character. Words are available by quotes and make beautifully blunt weapons.

 

[Falconv1.0]

I like your use of statistics there. Clearly you are an avid researcher and academic, Dr Jerkoff.

Missed this since I was gone.

Erm, yeah, all those things are true. I can go find like 4 different guys who are some of the best in the nation who will kick your *** about that if you want. Although I'm only in direct contact with two, so that would be a waste of my time and theirs. So let's just leave it at "You're a moronic fool."

Umbreon, sadly, no one really patrols these boards because of Ike's rep of well...not being too amazing. You should expect a lot of that here.

Now sadly I have to question you. I've yet to see Ike perform well in tourneys, and so far, every uber pwn smasher I've met or heard of has said he absolutely sucks when speaking of him. Specifically Inui and Lord Knight, and Lord Knight started out maining Ike. I keep asking out loud for someone to show me where he has done well, and I get ****ing ignored. So I'll ask one more time, and I'm addressing any good smasher in the Ike boards, where has he placed well in major tourneys, or at least respectable ones.

 

[Kodachrome]

*peeks in*

*sees ****-fit being thrown*

*leaves laughing*


Cerealsly, though. Everybody knows Ike is a noob killer. He's not overpowered if he can't hit your ***. So let's all just simmer down and ponder how we can get better, 'cuz we all know Ike certainly won't. I don't understand why these boards are so hostile. Sure, I throw a nudge to the ribs now and again, but this is ridiculous.

If you think about it, every character wielded properly with decent technique and common sense is a n00b killer. Nubz'r nubz. RAR a falcown paunch from the stage into midair for a below-the-ledge edgeguard and see what I mean.

I think we're all bitter because of the stigma Ike and his mainers receive. Get over it. <_<

*edit* OH, forgot one thing. A good player of any character also is not predictable. <_< Ike's moves cover his body more than D3's. Find different ways to hit people. His bair is his best kill move against normal people. A RAR from a standstill gives you nearly no chance to react, and nobody expects a bair to hit them when you were facing them a split second before. Oh, and Falcon1: He hasn't done well. You obviously seem to know this, so stfu and quit asking rhetorical questions to provoke responses like mine. A character does not a player make. Some of us just dig Ike, and don't care if he "sucks."

 

[Ace55]

Ike has some hard matches, but overall he's a solid character that can do very well, unlike power characters from the other 2 smash games.

Do you really think Ike will do better than Ganondorf in Melee (lowest middle tier)? I like using him but I can't help but think that he's going to end up rather low tiered.

And LOL at the guy with 81 posts calling you the prime example of a noob. Good stuff.... good stuff.

 

[Kodachrome]

Ace, my opinion may not mean much, but I'd like to believe that Ike will be around the same spot. He can protect himself from nearly all angles, spacing helps immensely against retaliation, although perfect shields are easy to get on Ike...His insane power will always make someone wary of your next move, allowing for some mindgaming. His dash attack is beautiful, his neutral a autocancels itself, he's a good edgeguarder, etc...The problems are his 3 glaring weaknesses, all of which ganondorf shares in brawl, but...

It's tough to compare a brawl character to a melee character. I guess we'll see what happens, but I'm guessing that Ike is at the end of the road in terms of AT development. From there, it's just the metagame.

I'm sure umbreon will have a more detailed and accurate response-I really only dabbled in competitive melee.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Jesiah: attack with words, not a comparison of character. Words are available by quotes and make beautifully blunt weapons.

You're not my mom, you can't tell me what to do.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Umbrion, you think ike is good? lol. Any ways maybe if you played as other characters and compared your performance as those characters to your performance as Ike you would see what n. star storm means.
And I think goodstyle probably called you a noob(lol) purely on the fact that you claimed that ike is hard to combo because of his up b. wtf. If umbreon knows ike like the back of his hand why does he make statements like that! Do you know how much lag comes after aether!?

You guys just need to understand ike is low tier. If umbreon applied the same amount of effort and practice he has put into ike into a character who's actually good we might be seeing a higher end player.

 

[Goodstyle]

goodstyle, see the purple letters in my name? I'm one of ~50 people with it, it means I know stuff. Sit.

If you sincerely didn't want to offend me as the first 4 words of your post would suggest, you wouldn't label me a noob, which is intense irony since noob means "newbie" and you joined last month. Actually, if you want to make personal attacks, save it for a PM, a real life money match, or at least flame me so I can laugh when your *** gets banned. If you want to actually contribute so people don't ride your **** about being ********, you may do so at literally ANY part of this forum! You need to accept that starting a sentence with "you need to accept that" will probably lead into a condescending statement.

Jesiah: attack with words, not a comparison of character. Words are available by quotes and make beautifully blunt weapons.

I've been playing smash since the 64 version came out. Just because I joined last month doesn't mean I started playing last month. I only thought you were a noob because of some of the stuff you said. You just seem to be in a slight denial by saying Ike is a solid character. He's not. If I did offend you sorry, but you need to except the truth.

Lets see... Ike has huge range and power. He has a good running speed and nearly all of his moves have killing potential. Too bad he's slow, has less combo potential than most of the cast and has a horrible recovery. As you can see, his cons far out way his pros.

In a way Ike is a ganondorf with a big disjointed hit box. Although he's great for pwning noobs. Also, the Kirby main and ace are right.

 

[Tristan Fattest of All Kids]

You Are An Idiot. Plz Get Off This Sub-section Of The Forums

It's not even clear who you are referring to...


Anyways, I think more n00bs play Ike than n00b-killers.

"omgz, I play Ike b/c he'z strong lolzorz. I like pwning with his fsmash."

 

[Empy]

Do you really think Ike will do better than Ganondorf in Melee (lowest middle tier)? I like using him but I can't help but think that he's going to end up rather low tiered.

That hugely depends on when you feel Ike has done "better". Brawl tier lists will obviously be a lot larger so a character will have to be better to end up high. But I think Ike could go around the middle of mid tier, depending on how the metagame develops.

Ike is just a character you'll have to watch out for. He can punish easily and that doesn't really mean he's only useful against n00bs. I mean, even the best Brawl player will have to sidestep and roll sometimes. Both can be punished. So yeah, mindgaming is key with Ike but will score you points as well.

I've been playing smash since the 64 version came out. Just because I joined last month doesn't mean I started playing last month. I only thought you were a noob because of some of the stuff you said. You just seem to be in a slight denial by saying Ike is a solid character. He's not. If I did offend you sorry, but you need to except the truth.

Lets see... Ike has huge range and power. He has a good running speed and nearly all of his moves have killing potential. Too bad he's slow, has less combo potential than most of the cast and has a horrible recovery. As you can see, his cons far out way his pros.

In a way Ike is a ganondorf with a big disjointed hit box. Although he's great for pwning noobs. Also, the Kirby main and ace are right.

Actually I think solid is a pretty good way to discribe Ike. He's not insanely good at anything but he's not horrible in anything either. He's just good in what he does and that's that.

And the slow and horrible recovery aren't as bad as you think. His recovery is something you need to learn, rather than something that's impossible. Also, his jab is a fast move and should be used a lot. If you just jab and grab a lot you'll be able to have a much faster Ike.

It's not even clear who you are referring to...


Anyways, I think more n00bs play Ike than n00b-killers.

"omgz, I play Ike b/c he'z strong lolzorz. I like pwning with his fsmash."

Not all Ike mainers are RoK.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Ike is doomed and half the reason for that is that community doomed him. The other reason is because many characters can rack up large amounts of damage on him by chaingrabbing or jut camping. He has no good match against commonly used characters.

And after asking has he placed good in a tourney, the response from the guys who said he was solid was that I shouldn't be an *** asking rhetorical questions.


What the hell.

Edit:So basically, if he is doing garbz in tourneys, he is GARBZ.

 

[Kirk]

Ike is doomed and half the reason for that is that community doomed him.

I wonder who in the community could be doing such a thing...

 

[Falconv1.0]

Ike is doomed and half the reason for that is that community doomed him.

I wonder who in the community could be doing such a thing...

Unknown forces lurking in the shadows me thinks.

Kirk, we need to Brawl, I'm bored as hell.

 

[Deleted member]

I happen to think Ike's usage will increase a good deal as the game advances. First the bad news, Ike has a handful of counter matches, and while low in number, they're really hard, and he'll probably be used seriously only for counterpicks. Namely DDD, Pit, and to a lesser extent, Metaknight.

Now onto why I think Ike is a good character. First you have to look at Brawl mechanics, as they largely favor Ike-

Brawl is slow, so range is more important. Where speed vs range is normally debatable, range dominates hard in Brawl. While other characters will trade hits for 9% a hit, Ike will attack other attacks, beat them, and do double back anyway.

Brawl has no combos. Again, another debatable point is combo potential vs kill potential. With much more pronounced DI, very low hitstun, and higher % kills in general, being able to kill against good DI is suddenly much more important that combo potential. You have to assume that your opponent will be a good player at all times or else the character isn't good, only good vs people that suck. Where good players will survive attacks from weaker characters, they won't survive Ike's. Where good players will DI and dodge out of Ike's combos....well, they won't. But they will DI and dodge out of combos from other characters too. I feel that high level play will consist of very few combos and higher % KOs as people learn to DI better. Both of these trends will benefit Ike.

Brawl has more pronounced DI, and therefore more effective DI. As DI improves, it will be harder and harder to gimp Ike players, as they typically play on Ike's weaknesses in his recovery. Ike players will overcome them, he has the tools to do it. Not only that, I think Ike players will learn to gimp opponents back. Aether is an AMAZING gimp killer, especially from the edge using the spike. However, I think Ike will get better at gimping other characters back, since he can usually go out further than the opponent expects or can deal with it, and just hit them with something strong to ensure a KO.

Brawl offers fewer technical aspects. Technical play offers options. With fewer options, free attacks and ways of negating mindgames becomes more powerful. Ike has tons of ways to guarantee a hit that most characters would be jealous of.

-ike's upair covers the ENTIRE platform for all 3 platforms on battlefield. Also, you can reach the 2 side platforms with upair. SH upair will guarantee a hit with even mediocre timing rather than needing a guess to hit them. You can also mimic this with his fair.

-ike can kill a ledged opponent, easily for that matter. Actually, for the standard character, there is -no safe way- to get up from the edge against ike's SH fair. Sure, Wolf can over B through the stage. I can't think of anyone else with a means to get past ike's fair to get up on the stage.

I'll add more tomorrow when I have time.

 

[Falconv1.0]

I happen to think Ike's usage will increase a good deal as the game advances. First the bad news, Ike has a handful of counter matches, and while low in number, they're really hard, and he'll probably be used seriously only for counterpicks. Namely DDD, Pit, and to a lesser extent, Metaknight.

Now onto why I think Ike is a good character. First you have to look at Brawl mechanics, as they largely favor Ike-

Brawl is slow, so range is more important. Where speed vs range is normally debatable, range dominates hard in Brawl. While other characters will trade hits for 9% a hit, Ike will attack other attacks, beat them, and do double back anyway.

Brawl has no combos. Again, another debatable point is combo potential vs kill potential. With much more pronounced DI, very low hitstun, and higher % kills in general, being able to kill against good DI is suddenly much more important that combo potential. You have to assume that your opponent will be a good player at all times or else the character isn't good, only good vs people that suck. Where good players will survive attacks from weaker characters, they won't survive Ike's. Where good players will DI and dodge out of Ike's combos....well, they won't. But they will DI and dodge out of combos from other characters too. I feel that high level play will consist of very few combos and higher % KOs as people learn to DI better. Both of these trends will benefit Ike.

Brawl has more pronounced DI, and therefore more effective DI. As DI improves, it will be harder and harder to gimp Ike players, as they typically play on Ike's weaknesses in his recovery. Ike players will overcome them, he has the tools to do it. Not only that, I think Ike players will learn to gimp opponents back. Aether is an AMAZING gimp killer, especially from the edge using the spike. However, I think Ike will get better at gimping other characters back, since he can usually go out further than the opponent expects or can deal with it, and just hit them with something strong to ensure a KO.

Brawl offers fewer technical aspects. Technical play offers options. With fewer options, free attacks and ways of negating mindgames becomes more powerful. Ike has tons of ways to guarantee a hit that most characters would be jealous of.

-ike's upair covers the ENTIRE platform for all 3 platforms on battlefield. Also, you can reach the 2 side platforms with upair. SH upair will guarantee a hit with even mediocre timing rather than needing a guess to hit them. You can also mimic this with his fair.

-ike can kill a ledged opponent, easily for that matter. Actually, for the standard character, there is -no safe way- to get up from the edge against ike's SH fair. Sure, Wolf can over B through the stage. I can't think of anyone else with a means to get past ike's fair to get up on the stage.

I'll add more tomorrow when I have time.

Umbreon, you are perhaps the first very potent defender of Ike. Obviously I seriously doubt he's as good as you say, but I'd love to see how far you can carry this argument. (Not with me, but just the whole anti Ike thing itself)

Seriously, most good smashers I know have said things like 'Use characters that exist" "Ike is terrible" etc.

And once again these aren't random nubs, they're guys who have a lot of respect and all that jazz.

 

[Deleted member]

I have to do this anyway for the SBR weekly discussion. Unfortunately, I work a lot of my time, so finding time may take a while. Ike has lots of issues to address though, stages, matches, spammers, etc.

 

[Inui]

Max, I disagree about Brawl's mechanics favouring Ike.

Brawl says "CAMP CAMP CAMP" and Ike loses when even bad characters like Link camp him.

 

[Rykoshet]

Campers are hard to overcome but not especially impossible to beat. There has to be a certain degree of weaving in and out and in fact the bigger problem are characters that are very mobile (fox for one). It's a large part of why I have bigger trouble with toon link than I do adult link, nevermind the fact that toon link by and large is a far better character.

As for his recovery being "easily gimpable". The only 2 that really come to mind are stage spikes by game and watch and marth, and they have to extend themselves by going offstage and feinting with an aerial in the first place (not hard for either of them). Otherwise I still feel aether is one of the safest ways back to the stage.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Campers are hard to overcome but not especially impossible to beat. There has to be a certain degree of weaving in and out and in fact the bigger problem are characters that are very mobile (fox for one). It's a large part of why I have bigger trouble with toon link than I do adult link, nevermind the fact that toon link by and large is a far better character.

Link ***** the hell out of Ike even though Link is worse.

 

[Rykoshet]

I've been told the same thing about zelda and that's still my easiest matchup so...

And please don't begin with "Oh just because you can handle your friends". I live in a city where finding quality players for matchups is neither hard nor time consuming, I go up against good tournament level players rather regularly. Just stop going into everything headfirst.

 

[Falconv1.0]

I've been told the same thing about zelda and that's still my easiest matchup so...

And please don't begin with "Oh just because you can handle your friends". I live in a city where finding quality players for matchups is neither hard nor time consuming, I go up against good tournament level players rather regularly. Just stop going into everything headfirst.

Names of said players please.

not trying to be an ***, but I mean Kirk wins tourneys because there are no pros in his area.

 

[Empy]

I've been told the same thing about zelda and that's still my easiest matchup so...

And please don't begin with "Oh just because you can handle your friends". I live in a city where finding quality players for matchups is neither hard nor time consuming, I go up against good tournament level players rather regularly. Just stop going into everything headfirst.

I know what you mean. It seems there is a Zelda player among your closer friends/regular opponents, correct? I have the same thing with Wolf. Many players think Wolf is annoying, but when you play against a certain character very often, it does get easier. And about Zelda, I think it's Din's Fire. You really have to get used to that in the beginning to be able to play well against her. However, jumping away from her and then flying back with QD (obviously airborne and short of her) or using counter (when in close range and dropping into her reach) both work pretty well IMO.

 

[Falconv1.0]

I know what you mean. It seems there is a Zelda player among your closer friends/regular opponents, correct? I have the same thing with Wolf. Many players think Wolf is annoying, but when you play against a certain character very often, it does get easier. And about Zelda, I think it's Din's Fire. You really have to get used to that in the beginning to be able to play well against her. However, jumping away from her and then flying back with QD (obviously airborne and short of her) or using counter (when in close range and dropping into her reach) both work pretty well IMO.

Zelda's Din fire is easy to avoid. However, dont create patterns. i did and it almsot lost me the match because she was timing her hits to go along with my dodge/QD strat or w/e I was doing.

Link can easily projectile **** Ike. Seriously, he has some great projectile approaches, among other things. I dont use Link,I'm sure I could punish the hell out of most of you guys with him. Still, Link is garbz. Much worse than Ike.

Ike>Link

But Link wins, yeah, odd game.

 

[Deleted member]

Max, I disagree about Brawl's mechanics favouring Ike.

Brawl says "CAMP CAMP CAMP" and Ike loses when even bad characters like Link camp him.

Brawl is much closer to shield camping than movement camping, since the shield is so amazing and movement is so horrid. Shield camping actually benefits Ike a lot, since he's one of the few characters that out-range shield campers. This is actually the sole reason I think DDD is a counter match, because he grab is long enough to punish Ike out of shield where everyone else fails.

Projectile camping isn't that bad with two exceptions: falco and pit. Pit can sit under a platform and spam lasers and you have to outsmart him to hit him at all. So I think Pit counters Ike. Falco is kind of the same, but Ike punishes Falco back much better. Ike can also roll dodge into SHDL, eat the second laser at a distance, and start a jab combo, and the jab combo will either out range/prioritize whatever falco does next. It's kind of situational in that you have to be at the right spacing to do it though, but it's easier than it sounds.

 

[Goodstyle]

As good as argument sounds I have to strongly disagree with alot of what you said. Yes Aether is the ultimate anti-gimp device but that recovery itself is very situational. You'll really need to use the QD as a recovery alot and that recovery is very easy to gimp. I understand that brawls physics prevent gimping but Ike is an unfortunate exception.

The easiest way to gimp Ike's recovery is to simply to put yourself in the way of the QD. Stops the move instantly. Or if Ike is low enough you can just place yourself on the ledge and he'll most likely just stop.

Also saying range is the reason why Brawl mechanics favor Ike is just biased. Yes brawl is slow but your saying because of that slow characters will dominate? Lol. So does that mean ganondorf is automatically better than metaknight or what. Slowing down the game combined wth brawls imbalanced mechanic actually makes slow pokes have even more trouble hitting with their even slower predictable attacks. Character who have quick unpredictable attacks have the advantage. With the exception of DK and D3(Snake is not considered to be power) power characters are average like bowser or bad like Ike.

Ike is not meta game material and it shows with tourney results. Although a certain short ranged quick attacking fat man is doing the 4th best in tourneys as opposed to Ike who rarely wins. Every tourney I've ever gone to had Ike players. All of which I had no trouble against.

There will be more later...

 

[Empy]

As good as argument sounds I have to strongly disagree with alot of what you said. Yes Aether is the ultimate anti-gimp device but that recovery itself is very situational. You'll really need to use the QD as a recovery alot and that recovery is very easy to gimp. I understand that brawls physics prevent gimping but Ike is an unfortunate exception.

The easiest way to gimp Ike's recovery is to simply to put yourself in the way of the QD. Stops the move instantly. Or if Ike is low enough you can just place yourself on the ledge and he'll most likely just stop.

NO, NO, NO. How many times do we have to explain? YOU DON'T NEED QUICKDRAW FOR RECOVERY, EVER. Now go bother other people with lame random comments. If you die because you used QD to recover, you're an idiot. Bye now.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

As good as argument sounds I have to strongly disagree with alot of what you said. Yes Aether is the ultimate anti-gimp device but that recovery itself is very situational. You'll really need to use the QD as a recovery alot and that recovery is very easy to gimp. I understand that brawls physics prevent gimping but Ike is an unfortunate exception.

The easiest way to gimp Ike's recovery is to simply to put yourself in the way of the QD. Stops the move instantly. Or if Ike is low enough you can just place yourself on the ledge and he'll most likely just stop.

Also saying range is the reason why Brawl mechanics favor Ike is just biased. Yes brawl is slow but your saying because of that slow characters will dominate? Lol. So does that mean ganondorf is automatically better than metaknight or what. Slowing down the game combined wth brawls imbalanced mechanic actually makes slow pokes have even more trouble hitting with their even slower predictable attacks. Character who have quick unpredictable attacks have the advantage. With the exception of DK and D3(Snake is not considered to be power) power characters are average like bowser or bad like Ike.

Ike is not meta game material and it shows with tourney results. Although a certain short ranged quick attacking fat man is doing the 4th best in tourneys as opposed to Ike who rarely wins. Every tourney I've ever gone to had Ike players. All of which I had no trouble against.

There will be more later...

well 1st of you having no trouble against Ike's is no surprise since you main DDD and Umbreon just said that that would be Ike's counter pick.

also I'm not sure but I don't think that Ganondorf has a good short range reach. Umbreon is saying that brawls mechanics favor Ike because he has a huge reach if you space correctly you don't get grabbed even if you get shielded. Then theres attacks like Uair and Nair that last longer than an air dodge. At least thats what I think he is saying maybe im wrong lol.

edit: o yah that was something else that I wanted to point out. Empy is right you never have to use QD to recover and If you learn to DI correctly you really won't ever need to use it because I think there might be only one spot where you need to use QD to recover idk where you got that you need to use QD a lot. And is bowser really good? I thought he only had like 3 good match ups Ike has more than that.


Another thing I'd like to add I've never had trouble with links sure they can build up your damage and camp you a lot but once you get them off the stage and they need to use there up B to recover you can charge your eruption and kill them with that. that might just be because I play bad links though. lol

 

[Goodstyle]

I happen to think Ike's usage will increase a good deal as the game advances. First the bad news, Ike has a handful of counter matches, and while low in number, they're really hard, and he'll probably be used seriously only for counterpicks. Namely DDD, Pit, and to a lesser extent, Metaknight.

Now onto why I think Ike is a good character. First you have to look at Brawl mechanics, as they largely favor Ike-

Brawl is slow, so range is more important. Where speed vs range is normally debatable, range dominates hard in Brawl. While other characters will trade hits for 9% a hit, Ike will attack other attacks, beat them, and do double back anyway.

Brawl has no combos. Again, another debatable point is combo potential vs kill potential. With much more pronounced DI, very low hitstun, and higher % kills in general, being able to kill against good DI is suddenly much more important that combo potential. You have to assume that your opponent will be a good player at all times or else the character isn't good, only good vs people that suck. Where good players will survive attacks from weaker characters, they won't survive Ike's. Where good players will DI and dodge out of Ike's combos....well, they won't. But they will DI and dodge out of combos from other characters too. I feel that high level play will consist of very few combos and higher % KOs as people learn to DI better. Both of these trends will benefit Ike.

<b>Brawl has more pronounced DI, and therefore more effective DI. As DI improves, it will be harder and harder to gimp Ike players, as they typically play on Ike's weaknesses in his recovery. Ike players will overcome them, he has the tools to do it. Not only that, I think Ike players will learn to gimp opponents back. Aether is an AMAZING gimp killer, especially from the edge using the spike. However, I think Ike will get better at gimping other characters back, since he can usually go out further than the opponent expects or can deal with it, and just hit them with something strong to ensure a KO.

Brawl offers fewer technical aspects. Technical play offers options. With fewer options, free attacks and ways of negating mindgames becomes more powerful. Ike has tons of ways to guarantee a hit that most characters would be jealous of.</b>

-ike's upair covers the ENTIRE platform for all 3 platforms on battlefield. Also, you can reach the 2 side platforms with upair. SH upair will guarantee a hit with even mediocre timing rather than needing a guess to hit them. You can also mimic this with his fair.

-ike can kill a ledged opponent, easily for that matter. Actually, for the standard character, there is -no safe way- to get up from the edge against ike's SH fair. Sure, Wolf can over B through the stage. I can't think of anyone else with a means to get past ike's fair to get up on the stage.

I'll add more tomorrow when I have time.

You just implied that metaknight is a bad character because he's fast and his moves aren't as strong as ike's. You also implied that brawls meta game is run on power characters. This is very untrue. You claim that combos are non existent and quick attacks are pointeless. Who do you think will get your opponent to killing percentage first Ike or said fast character. Direction influence won't do**** when your riding your opponent 24/7. This is especially
easy when your fighting Ike.

Also saying that Ike's fair is impossible to dodge unless your wolf is wrong on so many levels. Air dodging totally kills that statement. You can't walk over and fair your opponent in the face. Brawl just does not work like that. To hit your opponent you need mind games.to use mind games will you need speed. Power characters are bad all around with the exception of D3, DK and Snake if he's considered to be a power character at all. Bowser is in the middle when it comes to power char usefulness. Ganondorf, CF, and Ike however are the worst kinds of power characters because they can't pepper their opponents(something you claim to be useless) with attacks to any extent because their too slow. The others can somewhat do it somewhat at least. Especially DK.

Your interpretation of the future of brawl's meta game totally contradicts what the game is all about IMO.