If M2K mained Snake

[napZzz]

Most of Marth and Falco's matchups are neutral or slight advantages, even MK is pretty much the same across the board. Most characters don't totally shut down more than 1 or 2 characters, if any at all.

marth shuts out everything that isn't S tier pretty much lol. Some of the A tiers are exceptions too.

MK 6/4's almost everything. Its hard to find a matchup for him thats close to even. But dont turn this into an mk discussion thread and leave it how it is

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Yeah, CO18 is definitely amazing... I don't see how that proves anything about it being a bad matchup though :\ Snake can grenade hold / up smash to mess with DeDeDe's grabs, and he can abuse DeDeDe's extremely poor air speed to get lots of damage racked even if DeDeDe is trying to air camp.

You obviously don't know the match up enough. If Snake tries to pull a nade even somewhat close to Dedede thats just asking for trouble. Dedede's spaced Ftilts can hit snake, blow up the nade in snake's face, and be unharmed from it. If you get grabbed Dedede still has alot of options unless the nade is just about to explode. He can CG you away from the nade, or fthrow/bthrow and roll away from the nade, while the roll puts him close to you plus facing away from you, from which he can bair you or just turnaround and regrab.

Usmash sucks against Dedede, he can use you as a shield by throwing you at your mortar.

Besides, you're a Falco main no? What do you know about this matchup? Try facing Lain's Dedede with your Snake and see how that goes.

 

[napZzz]

You obviously don't know the match up enough. If Snake tries to pull a nade even somewhat close to Dedede thats just asking for trouble. Dedede's spaced Ftilts can hit snake, blow up the nade in snake's face, and be unharmed from it. If you get grabbed Dedede still has alot of options unless the nade is just about to explode. He can CG you away from the nade, or fthrow/bthrow and roll away from the nade, while the roll puts him close to you plus facing away from you, from which he can bair you or just turnaround and regrab.

Usmash sucks against Dedede, he can use you as a shield by throwing you at your mortar.

Besides, you're a Falco main no? What do you know about this matchup? Try facing Lain's Dedede with your Snake and see how that goes.

I've had to play lains DDD before in tourney. Good DDD's are hard. One grab and you're essentially dead or your whole stock is wiped clean. Snake cant play perfect forever, he WILL get grabbed eventually and **** up.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Nappy, I wasn't turning this into an MK discussion in any way, I compared Snakes matchups to 3 different characters... so I don't know how you figured that I was.


Yume, I play both Falco and DeDeDe in singles (mainly Falco though), and DeDeDe and MK in doubles.

 

[etecoon]

Most of Marth and Falco's matchups are neutral or slight advantages, even MK is pretty much the same across the board. Most characters don't totally shut down more than 1 or 2 characters, if any at all.

most may not but it does happen, **** IC climbers single handedly make like half the cast completely worthless competitively lol

among good characters especially, MK shuts down most bad characters, marth, ROB, and DDD. DDD shuts down most of the characters he can chain grab and even some that he can't. diddy is **** against anyone that isn't great at dealing with items

and most of falco and marth's MU's are neutral/slight advantages? I was under the impression that marth went 6:4 or better vs most of C tier and below, even being a meta knight main I find myself doing strangely better with marth if it's against a bad character <_<

 

[AllyKnight]

tell that to redhalberd.

I don't see him place as good as M2K and by style I meant EVERYTHING. kk bye ;P and no he wasnt a m2k's mk style, not close lmao. even when I played him.

Also CO18 is the best vs Snake but it isn't like he's auto-death I lost for buffering an upsmash. other than that, Florida isnt scary.

 

[OverLade]

did I really say copy M2K? I just meant I copiedthe usual techs not playstyle, I even made some by my own and told M2K. You CANT copy M2K's style.

tell that to redhalberd.

QFT a million times over.

I don't see him place as good as M2K and by style I meant EVERYTHING. kk bye ;P and no he wasnt a m2k's mk style, not close lmao. even when I played him.

Since somehow I got brought up in this, I'll put my 2 cents in. I actually play a lot more like M2K now then I did back at winterfest (My perspective on MK completely changed after winterfest). But besides that point...

Regardless, Ally is right, you can't copy M2K's style because M2Ks style is only possible because of how smart he is. My reactions arent as mechanically fast as his so there's a lot of precision things Im not able to emulate consistently. I can copy everything he does, but copying how well he does it I cant do. A lot of the stuff he does I had to mechanically teach myself because I wouldn't think of it naturally...

And concerning if M2K mained snake, he would be a top player but he would definitely lose a lot more, and would definitely realize that MK is better....so yeah.

 

[Teh Future]

I'm pretty sure snake loses to these characters for sure.

olimar
falco
mk
DDD
Marth (yes, I said it)

Characters that are a maybe slight disadvantage/even

Wario
Diddy (once again, yeah I said it)
Fox
Pit

Theres more, but thats all I think of off the top of my head.

Any sort of stage you could call janky and stupid is probably bad for snake. Not all the neutrals work to his favor depending on matchup and can really work against him. Please dont argue the legitimacy of a character because you get outplayed by the people using him or dont even use him in the first place.

People overhype snake too much.

LOL at this entire post. Don't you main snake? This post makes it seem like you don't know anything about him

 

[etecoon]

diddy is the only one he was off base there about, oli/falco might be more even than solid disadvantages but still

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Falco definitely does NOT have an advantage on Snake. That's ridiculous. You have a MINOR inconvenience up til 40-50% because you have to avoid the CG, the rest of the match after that point is easily in your favor.

Blow yourself up or hold grenades, any damage that you get on Falco is just icing on the cake. Once you do that, Snake has the clear advantage in the matchup based on sheer weight class / killing power, much less your ability to punish every kill attempt that Falco goes for and be almost completely unapproachable. Additionally, Snake also easily outcamps Falco.

Maybe you could say it's 55:45 Falco or 55:45 Snake depending on stage, but neither Snake nor Falco "wins" this matchup.

Also, Snake is really good on jankey stages... you guys are grossly underestimating him here.

 

[napZzz]

LOL at this entire post. Don't you main snake? This post makes it seem like you don't know anything about him

I'll only listen to what you say when you stop losing to breezy's ganondorf.

raep

if you blow yourself up, you have alot of catching up to do and its hard for snake to catch up with falco because he can just run around the stage like a little ***** shooting lasers. Crouch camping? whats that even gonna do anyways if you dont have the lead, so dont even mention it. If snake tries to crawl closer falco can just jump over you and run away or wait for you to try to dtilt at a certain range and do a side b. Once snake is close to falco, he just has to jab/roll/side b/grab and if he mixes it up properly snake will have such a stupid time doing damage and even trying to kill him unless he simply gets predicted and outplayed, which shouldn't always happen.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

I'll only listen to what you say when you stop losing to breezy's ganondorf.

raep

if you blow yourself up, you have alot of catching up to do and its hard for snake to catch up with falco because he can just run around the stage like a little ***** shooting lasers. Crouch camping? whats that even gonna do anyways if you dont have the lead, so dont even mention it.

Snake has no problem racking up Falco or punishing him. If he's "running around the stage like a little ***** shooting lasers", then you can camp him, because he's not approaching. You out camp him easily, so "running around like a little ***** shooting lasers" isn't really an option, at least not a good one. Additionally, Snakes tilts pretty easily go through phantasm.

If he approaches you, the act of being Snake is enough to thwart most of them.



"Predicing and out playing" are always in Snake's favor, because his long life span and superior kill power give him the advantage in guessing. Falco can guess wrong maybe 2 or 3 times, then he's at 90% and dies from (pick a Snake move). Snake can make like 10 mistakes and it doesn't even matter because Falco can't kill.

This is why so many Snakes "just out play" Falcos when they win, because you have a vastly larger window of error and thus more opportunities to do so.






Also, I never mentioned crouch camping once.


You keep saying that I am saying things that I have never even typed. Stop making crap up.

 

[etecoon]

omg snak is so broken

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBiWtk2K85I&feature=related

Spoiler

not sure why this is in german but **** it

 

[demonictoonlink]

Snake has nothing worse than 55-45, and even those are more likely 50-50...
DDD? Really? I thought Snakes got over this. Florida having amazing DDDs doesn't mean Snake loses...

And when has a top Olimar beaten a top Snake?

 

[etecoon]

top Olimar

this sounds like some kind of hilarious oxymoron

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Snake has nothing worse than 55-45, and even those are more likely 50-50...
DDD? Really? I thought Snakes got over this. Florida having amazing DDDs doesn't mean Snake loses...

This.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBiWtk2K85I&feature=related

Spoiler

not sure why this is in german but **** it

I have not once in this entire thread said that Snake is broken in terms of balance. I have been arguing that he has mostly neutral or better matchups this entire time.

The only people crying here are the ones suggesting that Snake gets "*****" by anyone.

 

[napZzz]

Snake has no problem racking up Falco or punishing him. If he's "running around the stage like a little ***** shooting lasers", then you can camp him, because he's not approaching. You out camp him easily, so "running around like a little ***** shooting lasers" isn't really an option, at least not a good one. Additionally, Snakes tilts pretty easily go through phantasm.

If he approaches you, the act of being Snake is enough to thwart most of them.



"Predicing and out playing" are always in Snake's favor, because his long life span and superior kill power give him the advantage in guessing. Falco can guess wrong maybe 2 or 3 times, then he's at 90% and dies from (pick a Snake move). Snake can make like 10 mistakes and it doesn't even matter because Falco can't kill.

This is why so many Snakes "just out play" Falcos when they win, because you have a vastly larger window of error and thus more opportunities to do so.






Also, I never mentioned crouch camping once.


You keep saying that I am saying things that I have never even typed. Stop making crap up.

lmao snake cant out camp falco. Everytime he tries pulling a nade he just gets hit by lasers .Throwing the nade, he gets hit by lasers. Once the nade is thrown, it is either blown up by lasers, reflected, or easily avoided. And I said dont even mention it because everyone I talk to about that matchup does at some point, what I was trying to say is dont bother bringing it up because its a stupid point.

Also, has long as falco keeps a percent lead (which is simple) he can just keep running away and doesn't even have to worry. Before you know it, snake is in killing percent to a bair/uair and after you've gotten him into the air you can just make safe shots at killing him through those. Snake doesn't have the tools to beat most of what a really ****ing patient falco can do and thats the end of it.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

If you are getting routinely outcamped by Falcos, then you are playing this matchup wrong. Generally, Falco doesn't win this matchup by camping, he wins by getting a grab and keeping Snake in the air / off the stage.

Falco can shoot the grenades / reflect them, but Falco needs to hit you with numerous lasers to do any significant damage, while Snake only needs to land one or two grenades. The reflector is extremely punishable at the right range, as are lasers if you are at a mid range and power shield them.

Snake should have no problem with mixing up power shields, and yes even crouching for a second, to approach a Falco when he needs to.



If Snake were the exact same character but weighed half as much, this matchup might easily be 60:40 Falco. That's not the case, though, and Snake's weight combined with his amazing kill power / punishes on Falco give him the advantage, assuming that Snake avoids the CG, which he should be able to avoid more than half the time on most stages.

If you are both at 3 stocks and at, say ~50% as Snake and Falco is at 0%, Snake is easily "in the lead". I don't see how you can even attempt to refute that. Falco has the advantage IF he gets the grab and there isn't a 'nade about to explode to mess it up.


Falco has the gimp advantage, Snake has the not dying / kill power advantage. Therefor, avoiding CGs would generally put Snake slightly in the lead... and avoiding a Falco chain grab as Snake is not hard...





I don't really see how I'm "crying" with any of this, I already mostly agreed with the 50:50 consensus on the Falco:Snake matchup like 2 months ago on the Falco boards. I'm still swayed more towards 55:45 Snake's favor on most levels, but that's still a neutral matchup, so how am I "crying"?

 

[etecoon]

 

[HelpR]

I love how zozefup came in here, made 2 posts, then rolled out leaving a debate about snake's matchups in his wake

also, zozefup, that's ********.

Seriously dude, you act as though no one would have discovered the stuff that makes MK gay if M2K wasnt playing? are you serious? People were latching onto him before brawl came out because he looked awesome, and honestly, if M2K hadnt used him and shown how he was such a solid character, someone else would have.

M2K's a pioneer in MK, but he wasnt the only person using MK when brawl came out, and if he had used snake, he would have just been a **** snake instead of a **** MK.

 

[bleyva]

I love how zozefup came in here, made 2 posts, then rolled out leaving a debate about snake's matchups in his wake

it's called "trolling". smashboards seems to fall for it pretty easily.

 

[demonictoonlink]

MMM, etecoon is just a troll. Check the MK ban discussion for proof. You won't change his mind because he simply won't listen.

My opinion on the issue: If M2K mained Snake, MK would still be considered the best, but there would be 0 talk of banning him.

 

[Mew2King]

^ that

i think i evolved the char too much

(but I think Diddy is the best right now)

 

[etecoon]

I'm a troll but I don't see how MMM isn't also trolling, him pretending to know snake's matchups better than snake mains is just like if I went to falco boards and said "man up ice climbers aren't that hard, if anything you probably beat them"

I just saw his argument for the farce it was and decided to mock it rather than make serious conversation of it.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

I'm a troll but I don't see how MMM isn't also trolling, him pretending to know snake's matchups better than snake mains is just like if I went to falco boards and said "man up ice climbers aren't that hard, if anything you probably beat them"

I'm not trolling, I'm arguing a point. You haven't made any good ones, fyi. The boards are here for discussing such topics, and I am doing just that. Your trolling as if to imply that I am somehow doing something wrong is unwarranted and unnecessary.


Furthermore, the Falco boards just rediscussed that matchup and it is now listed as only 45:55 IC favor.

 

[HelpR]

it's called "trolling". smashboards seems to fall for it pretty easily.

I was actually thinking about whether he was trolling or not when I was writing the post, however, I decided not to accuse him outright of it.

trolling 101: Make an inflammatory statement, make a post annoying anyone who you baited, and sit back and laugh as people flame each other.

 

[demonictoonlink]

How the hell would MMM be trolling? Because you disagree with what he's saying? Even if he was, he at least puts effort into it. Read his posts. They MAKE SENSE and have SUPPORTING DETAIL. Those are qualities of good posts. If you brought up points rather than disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing, no one would be calling you out on you trolling.

Also, M2K agreed with something I said. IRL I giggled like a meat-riding school girl.

 

[etecoon]

he at least puts effort into it

I can annoy people I don't like without really trying, so why would I? I'm not having a serious discussion with him because there is no point. I know why he, and you for that matter, are here and I see no benefit to actually discussing the game with you. that's what nappy tried to do, and it's like beating your head against a brick wall.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

I came here to discuss an interesting hypothetical situation and then to talk about a matchup, I'm not sure what ulterior motive you think I have.

 

[rathy Aro]

What? No.

M2K mained DDD from the start of brawl and no one ever thought DDD was broken (maybe for like a day). Metaknight, on the other hand, was seen as the second best from the start and quickly moved up to best even before m2k mained him (many of us realized mk was the best before the tierlist actually came out, naturally). There are attributes inherent to mk that make him good. There's no magic to it. He just has MANY EFFECTIVE OPTIONS. More than snake. Naturally this translates to better matchups.

 

[OverLade]

Snake has nothing worse than 55-45, and even those are more likely 50-50...
DDD? Really? I thought Snakes got over this. Florida having amazing DDDs doesn't mean Snake loses...

And when has a top Olimar beaten a top Snake?

Dedede wins 60/40

You mad? Its just a 60/40 with a higher ceiling than other 60/40s.

 

[6Mizu]

^ that

i think i evolved the char too much

(but I think Diddy is the best right now)

Diddy is not the best.

Dedede wins 60/40

You mad? Its just a 60/40 with a higher ceiling than other 60/40s.

DDD vs Snake?

Yea, it's definitely 60/40 (DDD's fav)

 

[MetalMusicMan]

It's not 2008, DeDeDe's CG on Snake is not a big deal and Snake can easily punish / kill him if he knows what to look for.

I really don't think DeDeDe-Snake is any worse than 55:45 DeDeDe, I've always thought it was pretty much dead even. Apparently ADHD feels the same, as I just noticed by clicking 6Mizu's sig, haha :D

DDD is 50-50, I've witnessed this matchup so much to conclude that DDD has no problem racking up damage but he suffers badly when he has to kill snake and snake makes massive comebacks and somehow gets the stock off before DDD. I've watched Ally play tons of DDDs.

I feel like the top tiers previous "counters" became dead even as time went by. Diddy's only bad matchup is snake which is 60-40, he used to have about 8.

Too many Snake's attribute these "massive comebacks" to them "just playing better than their opponent, even though the matchup is bad", when really these comebacks are an inherent strength that Snake has as a character. His extreme weight and power obviously support those kinds of comebacks. When you're losing as Snake, you are almost never really as bad off as it seems. You just keep not dying, not dying, not dying, and hit with a few moves in between, eventually Snake will still not be dead but his opponent gets to kill %, and Snake takes the stock.

It's not like I'm making a wild claim, pretty much every Snake wins in this fashion and on a consistent basis. See the first tournament Ally beat M2K, or any other numerous amount of pro Snake victories.

 

[6Mizu]

It's not 2008, DeDeDe's CG on Snake is not a big deal and Snake can easily punish / kill him if he knows what to look for.

I really don't think DeDeDe-Snake is any worse than 55:45 DeDeDe, I've always thought it was pretty much dead even. Apparently ADHD feels the same, as I just noticed by clicking 6Mizu's sig, haha :D



I feel like too many Snake's attribute these "massive comebacks" to them "just playing better than their opponent", then really, it is an inherent strength that Snake has as a character.

Lol, I only put stuff as my signature if it's the truth.

BTW, MMM call me Mizu.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Okie dokie :D

 

[etecoon]

It's not 2008, DeDeDe's CG on Snake is not a big deal and Snake can easily punish / kill him if he knows what to look for.

it's not 2009 either.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Samurai Panda this thread needs to be closed.

 

[OverLade]

Its prolly a solid 60:40, and DEF NOT 50:50.

Both characters have options capable of equally negating each other but based on reads, Dedede has a far easier time, while Snake gets punished a lot harder for making a mistake. To damage Dedede you have to actually get Ftilts/tech chasing, but D3 just needs to read a sidestep or w/e to get a grab.

Plus D3 can grab snake out of dash attack, dashgrab, and snakedashing. Dash sidestep is the only thing that beats it, meaning it's basically a 50:50 mixup...

 

[Berserker.]

I thought it was 50:50 from the start but now I think it's 45:55-40:60 DDD

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Yeah it's closer to 40:60 than 45:55 , most likely our worst matchup.