Ice Climbers Matchup Thread*Closed*

[lain]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMdGw8rn0Ss&feature=channel_page

A nice thing that should be tested as IC's in the matchup vs MK...

It works. And gaiz, I think you're missing the point here. MK has
so many other options, but if you simply prepare and just run up and shield, if he upb's, react quickly and edgehog.

The game isn't about whining about options. It's about reacting to what they do.

Really? Yoshi's island is my favorite stage to play against meat because once you get stage control under the platform he has no safe approach options. If they camp platforms they get upaired. They can't space any aerials without being shield grabbed and tornado is just shielded until either they run out and get grabbed or go back to the platform where they get upaired. Planking <<< desynced ice blocks and blizzard.

I was saying that it's hard to approach IC from above a platform.

 

[Teh Future]

^I know you were saying that, but you also said that Yoshi's was your least liked stage when it seems like to me the platform is perfect for the vs Meatknight matchup and makes it one of the best stages to take MK players.

 

[meepxzero]

yoshis has bad things going for it. Not so much the platform just the odd edges. Doing alt grabs on those slants you have to be precise with ur cgs and if you forward b or as lain says blizzard near the ledge itll force you to fall off and die. Kind of like an extreme version of lylat when it slants like crazy.

 

[Teh Future]

haha yeah I have died when I forward B on the side. Still I dont think something like that outweigh the perfect placement of the platform. Also the ghost platforms can be a lifesaver when you are down to only popo.

 

[FrozenHobo]

haha yeah I have died when I forward B on the side. Still I dont think something like that outweigh the perfect placement of the platform. Also the ghost platforms can be a lifesaver when you are down to only popo.

or **** you up when it saves their *** after an edge hog.


its not a good stage for ICs. uneven ground, bad ledges, ghost platforms screwing up squall recoveries... the list goes on.

 

[l!nk_aut]

i like yoshi´s ^^ i use it as a cp against some characters cause i don´t like the moving platform on smashville

 

[Teh Future]

its not a good stage for ICs. uneven ground, bad ledges, ghost platforms screwing up squall recoveries... the list goes on.

lol you guys need to stop listing uneven ground as a con. Seriously, its not even an issue as long as you aren't terrible at the game. Im pretty sure everything on that list is a horrible reason for why it is a bad stage for ICs.

 

[meepxzero]

slopes also prevent hobbling. I dont rely on hobbling, but it is a lot more reliable to turn the opponent around away from the ledge that is heavy than bthrow.

 

[Cyphus]

u stole your whole IceClimber ditto strategy from my DOC GUIDE!!!!!!!!! ;O

 

[NinjaFoxX]

u stole your whole IceClimber ditto strategy from my DOC GUIDE!!!!!!!!! ;O

o shi- its cyphus!!

of course only the writer himself would know his own material xD

Spoiler

but it does work though xD

 

[Kage Me]

Meta Knight is easy.

Spoiler

That is, once you get the grab.

But really, I wouldn't put this at any less than 35-65 in his favour. Blizzard helps. A lot.

 

[momochuu]

Has anyone actually grabbed MK out of the Mach Tornado with a pivot grab as ICs?

 

[meepxzero]

im curious why all u are saying 35:65 to mk o.o?

I use to think this but if anyone gives me problems i wouldnt mind giving them a quick q & a on this match up on anything mk does. Ic have more than enough tools to make it even. Al agree tho those statistics would make sense if someone were to pick up these characters in a few days and play the match up... I get really confused sometimes how these match up ratios work x_x

kawaii: it probably would work in the beginning of the tornado, but toward the middle and end it starts having insane priority.

 

[ch33s3]

Has anyone actually grabbed MK out of the Mach Tornado with a pivot grab as ICs?

You can actually do it without pivoting, its hard. You can either jab/grab desynch (have nana jab the nado to clank and grab) or have one of the climbers take a hit and then grab, the hitbox gets used up.

 

[Kage Me]

Has anyone actually grabbed MK out of the Mach Tornado with a pivot grab as ICs?

I have. It's just a lot easier to run away, shorthop and do a reverse Blizzard.

im curious why all u are saying 35:65 to mk o.o?

I said 35:65 primarily because he's somewhat good at seperating you from Nana and even better at killing her off.

It's true that we have some things going for us - Ice Blocks can force him to approach or force him into the air, while Blizzard and u-air/u-tilt make it difficult for him to approach us. I know he can Smash DI through Blizzard, but that's punishable by u-smash, f-smash or u-air, depending on where he Smash DIs to.
Additionally, if we can get beneath him, we have a strong positional advantage. I'm not sure if he can drop his Tornado through u-air, but probably not... I'll test that.
Finally, if Meta Knight doesn't space his aerials properly. And many are too overconfident in their character to even consider getting punished. That's more of a player flaw than a character flaw, though, but one should still be aware of it.

 

[meepxzero]

i dunno i feel like i only lose to mk if they are better than me >_>a.

Im sure lain feels that way too when he plays mks.

50:50 still stands. Its quick **** on either side. We grab they die and they gimp we die. This is if both know the match up perfectly.

al agree its 65:35 mk if its a horrible stage. (rainbow cruise or brinstar)

 

[DMG]

MK vs IC's looks even until MK starts playing super gay.

And yeah Tornado has amazing priority on certain areas/parts of the animation, I literally used a full bucket as G&W on a MK who approached me with Tornado and he actually beat it out. Any attack that can beat out a full bucket (I mean SUPER FULL, 3 Corneria Laser shots FULL) has unbelieveable priority.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

MK vs IC's looks even until MK starts playing super gay.

And yeah Tornado has amazing priority on certain areas/parts of the animation, I literally used a full bucket as G&W on a MK who approached me with Tornado and he actually beat it out. Any attack that can beat out a full bucket (I mean SUPER FULL, 3 Corneria Laser shots FULL) has unbelieveable priority.

like wario bike? o.o

anyways, do you guys wanna go a few more days with MK? or should we move on to Ness?

 

[meepxzero]

u can probably move on i dont think a lotta people have much info on him except me and lain and we pretty much gave the match up.

Just play smarter than the mk.

 

[lain]

Yes.

Also I just won a tourney yesterday with no MK involved against Hunger + Judge. Enjoy when they come :] There was ridiculous ****.

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

This discussion has strayed the most important question of them all, are the Ice Climbers at disadvantage against MK or not??? I'm getting mixed messages from people...

 

[meepxzero]

Demon i guess when ur at lain or my level ic its even otherwise it is 35:65.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

well, theses averages are marked according to the higest level of play(so its even if youve realy mastered your grabs)
for now, ill stick with 50:50, or maybe 45:55 scince MK really has no true counters...
anyways, Ness

 

[FrozenHobo]

hate. ness.

i have personal issues with this matchup so i'll wait to see what everyone else has to say before commenting.

 

[Wolydarg]

Random notes:
Ness' recovery is his major weakness, no doubt. So to further our advantage in this matchup, make him recover often. Does anyone know if an Ice Block can cancel out a PKT? Or one can just jump out and block the PKt with the body.

Ness is lightweight, so bthrow-dthrow?

SDI is necessary to get out of PKF or else you get set up for some nasty damage.

Ness' fair is too good. Bthrow will kill ROB at a little over 100%, so I'm guessing it'll kill IC below that range, as well. Dair spike is monstrous, can someone test if IC Uair > Ness Dair?

Not going to be home for a while, but I'll test random stuff on this MU when i get the chance.

 

[Bnzaaa]

Ice Block cancels PK Thunder.

Spaced Up-Air beats Ness' D-Air.

Ness is Mid-Weight. Using Forward-Throws on him is a bit more difficult for some reason.

 

[Bnzaaa]

Slow CPU is slow...

 

[l!nk_aut]

bthrow dthrow works best (imo) for ness.

powershield against pk fire is a nice setup for a grab.

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

In this kind of a match, you must watch Ness VERY intently. If you see him try to approach you, SH blizzard in most cases because his fair has good priority and his dair accompanied by his air speed can make it hard to counter with other attacks (just don't be too predictable about it or else he'll PSI magnet it to reduce his damage count by at least 30%). When recovering, belay is more recommended than Squall because Squall's hitbox does not cover you vertically so you will be open for a spike. Unless the Ness is too busy to jump on top of you to land a spike, stick to belay.

If you see him PK fire, don't try to ice block it down. The lingering flames make if very hard to approach him afterwards and give him the upper hand at approaching you aerially since the fire helps cover him. Whatever you do, don't let it hit you. If PK fire hits you, you will be set up for many combos or grabbed and seperated from Nana.

Dashing shield and other shielding is highly recommended since he isn't going to be able to grab you without having Nana in the way.

Kill move wise, use Fsmash instead of upsmash as your kill move and use upsmash as your damage racker or anti aerial. Uptilt is good but it has somewhat situational range so upsmash will be very helpful damage wise since your going to see Ness above you a lot more than in front of you.

A grand note:
Because the PSI kids have some weird grabbing/throw properties, you can downthrow chain them more often than most characters to rack up some nice damage and spike them more often.

I would say this match would be 50:50 since both characters have valid options against each other.

 

[Teh Future]

When recovering, belay is more recommended than Squall because Squall's hitbox does not cover you vertically so you will be open for a spike. Unless the Ness is too busy to jump on top of you to land a spike, stick to belay.

ICs upB is a terrible move except to save nana. I have never been spiked out of squall, by any character, it has too much mobility for this to be an actual issue.

dtilt can be a good gimping tool if they are lazy during their recovery

 

[Kage Me]

Ice Blocks are classified as Living projectiles, like Olimar's Pikmin. This should mean that if Ness's PK Missile connects with an Ice Block, the distance traveled is significantly decreased. If Ness is recovering from below the stage, you can even shoot Ice Blocks continuously and force him slowly down. His second jump, even when covered by f-air, is stopped by our b-air. In most cases, we trade hits with it. Ness's recovery fails very very hard against the Ice Climbers.

Beware of his PSI Magnet. Blizzard is considered an energy-based attack, and Ness can absorb it for free healing. Significant healing, considering how much damage Blizzard can do... Blizzard should only be used to intercept Ness's approach, and even then with caution.

I'll write more stuff later, I need to go cook dinner right now.

*******************************************************************

Alright, more stuff. Squall's pretty good if you use it from up-close, but using it as an approach is quite punishable by PK Fire - it's a Laser projectile, meaning it goes right through your attack. And we all know what happens when Ness gets a PK Fire in... Worst thing is, he can b-throw Popo while Nana is still tormented by the flames. Ness's b-throw is strong.

Recovery is a bit risky due to PK Thunder, but only if you give Ness time to make it risky. Recover fast - PK Thunder is faster than you'd expect. Squall or Belay can be safer depending on the situation, but usually Squall is the better option. When recovering from below the stage with Squall, watch out for PK Fire. It'll be angled down, meaning in your direction. On-stage, PK Thunder won't see a lot of use since Ice Blocks easily intercept a controlling Ness. Still, be aware that it's there.

Ness's air game is pretty, but beside b-air, there's not much you should be particularily cautious of as long as you're on-stage. F-air and n-air can be shieldgrabbed, d-air is easily prevented with one of your upward-aimed moves. B-air has a good bit of shieldslide when sweetspotted, though. Still, it's telegraphed a fair bit, so a spotdodge to grab will solve it.

Ness's yo-yo is a pain. His charge actually does damage (meaning it's nigh impossible to powershield), and the moves that use it aren't very laggy, while both of them hit on both sides. The d-smash also has a pretty good range. If you see Ness charging his yo-yo, stay out of range and use Squall once the hitbox goes away.

F-smash has loads of start-up lag, and won't be used on a grounded opponent. When recovering, make absolutely sure you land your Squall on-stage. Going into helpless will provoke a f-smash, and it will connect. Ness can also use it during PK Fire, so smash DI away from the pillar ASAP.

His tilts are fine, but we outrange them with our own tilts. Sadly, Ness's f-tilt and u-tilt have godly priority. F-tilt is our best counter, being more ranged, more disjointed and about as fast as Ness's tilts. It'll either hit Ness or clash with his tilts. Both are fine - they just reset the status quo, really. His d-tilt trips at a very high rate, so don't think Nana can save you from his f-smash when you trip. Fortunately, the range on this move is abysmal.

I'd say the match-up is very dependant on the players' positioning. Long-range is in our favour, mid-range is in his favour, close-range is in our favour, melee is once again his favour. Both characters can do a lot against eachother's recovery, too. This match-up may be among the most even ones we have... Though, my experience against Ness consists of only one Smasher, so maybe my advice isn't always valid.

Anyway, if it wasn't obvious from the last paragraph, I'd put the ratio at 50:50.

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

ICs upB is a terrible move except to save nana. I have never been spiked out of squall, by any character, it has too much mobility for this to be an actual issue.

dtilt can be a good gimping tool if they are lazy during their recovery

Ice Climber's Up B can be amazing to avoid off stage edgeguardings. If they get hit by Nana, Nana still gets to the edge with the failed tether belay and pulls you just enough to the edge while the opponent is flying away. Best of all, it has the ability to cancel projectiles in the way of Nana's tether so it is also an better answer to his projectile guards since squall will desync you if one of his projectiles hitting you, basically screwing you. You just have to use it when they AREN'T idling because they are probably waiting to edgehog you. Good Nesses can see a Squall recovery coming since it has a pretty straight forward path and set up a spike that way if they know you are the squalling type. This is why I said use Belay when Ness is too busy doing other things such as PK thundering, PK firing to wall a possible squall, or setting up for a offstage edgeguarding such as his spike. Ness is usually not one to idle for an edgehog so that is why I said keep Belay in mind for this match since it is much more useful in this match up than others.

 

[Kage Me]

You do not want to use Belay when Ness is already PK Thundering, unless you're absolutely sure that Nana will hit the bolt or the bolt is too far away to make it in time. If Nana misses, you leave Popo wide open to be hit with PK Thunder. And when that happens, you die, plain and simple.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

sorry for the late update, anyways next is pikachhu

also, any recent changes in the peach matchup?

 

[l!nk_aut]

dsmash is ugly and thunder ***** stupid nana. ´nough said.

 

[Kage Me]

...Please scale down Meta Knight's picture T_T

 

[choknater]

Pikachu is uhhhh, easy to cg....! xD

Other than that, this matchup is tough to keep up with Pikachu, you can outprioritize him a lot of the time though.

As far as getting in grabs goes... it shouldn't be too hard, just don't be hasty and do stupid things like trying to punish his well placed fsmash, or trying to grab him after thunder and you're not close enough. Play it safe against his fsmash, dsmash, and thunder... great defensive moves for Pika.

anyway i dont really know much about this matchup

just listen to lain he knows everything

 

[lain]

This matchup is ridiculous.

It's 50:50 at the top. If Pikachu splits up you and nana, he can really **** her up easily. I'll go more indepth later, I have a lady friend to stress over for the next 6 hours.

 

[meepxzero]

**** looks like lain has found her nana.... lol

i needa find me one -_-

 

[gantrain05]

i can't imagine trying to grab anther..... o.O