I Will Believe In Myself: Miles "Tails" Prower Support Thread

[kaithehedgefox]

That's the exact opposite of why ATs are added. ATs are added out of respect for those characters, not as "haha lets watch the babies cry"

no, characters are given Assist Trophies in order to respect them if they can't be fighters for one reason or another

Well, that's the intention. If a character doesn't belong on the roster, then it honors them, but if the character merits to be playable, then it has the opposite effect. That pretty much explains why Tails not being an assist trophy respects him. Same goes with Crash Bandicoot and Rayman, along with Master Chief (Halo).

 

[Otoad64]

Well, that's the intention. If a character doesn't belong on the roster, then it honors them, but if the character merits to be playable, then it has the opposite effect. That pretty much explains why Tails not being an assist trophy respects him. Same goes with Crash Bandicoot and Rayman, along with Master Chief (Halo).

no, if a character "merits to be playable" but misses the cut it's a way to still have them featured

and why on earth would Crash or Master Chief be an assist?

 

[kaithehedgefox]

and why on earth would Crash or Master Chief be an assist?

Both Crash and Master Chief belong on the roster. I'm just saying that it would be disrespectful to exclude Crash and Master chief.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Well, that's the intention. If a character doesn't belong on the roster, then it honors them, but if the character merits to be playable, then it has the opposite effect. That pretty much explains why Tails not being an assist trophy respects him. Same goes with Crash Bandicoot and Rayman, along with Master Chief (Halo).

I am completely lost for words. I tried to find a wacky reaction image that would describe the emotion I felt reading this but I couldn't.

 

[fogbadge]

Both Crash and Master Chief belong on the roster. I'm just saying that it would be disrespectful to exclude Crash and Master chief.

Nobody belongs on the smash roster Kai that’s just not the way it works.

 

[kaithehedgefox]

Nobody belongs on the smash roster Kai that’s just not the way it works.

When I say "belong" I meant deserve.

 

[fogbadge]

When I say "belong" I meant deserve.

In a game series that started out as a Nintendo all stars game surely the characters that deserve to be in are the Nintendo all stars

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

In a game series that started out as a Nintendo all stars game surely the characters that deserve to be in are the Nintendo all stars

Nobody "deserves" to be in Smash more than anyone else. The first game featured a generic superhero guy from the instruction manual for a bad single player racing game and the second game featured a character from a random black box NES game generally considered one of the worst of its already mostly mediocre peers.

 

[fogbadge]

Nobody "deserves" to be in Smash more than anyone else. The first game featured a generic superhero guy from the instruction manual for a bad single player racing game and the second game featured a character from a random black box NES game generally considered one of the worst of its already mostly mediocre peers.

You mean the ice climbers?

 

[SonicMario]

I don't put too much weight on Aaron saying Knuckles or Shadow since I'm not sure he's really the one who'd decide the next character when it comes to Smash. Sega of Japan is notorious for not exactly letting decisions go to the West (Which has been unfortunately part of the reason the franchise has been mishandled as it has in the past). But one thing that could conceivably give Tails his likelihood of being next is think of how despite the constant miscommunication between the Sega of Japan and the West. Tails has been there and had more speaking roles even in games only Sonic is playable in (Unleashed, Colors, Generations, etc.) and Tails is even getting a major role in the live action film's sequel (His tails are even added to the logo) after his sequel hook in the post-credits scene in the first. While it's possible Knuckles will appear in the movie (Apparently there's a rumor about that), Tails will probably have a big part next time. And while that could also be coincidence because a movie called Sonic the Hedgehog 2 would naturally follow after the game called Sonic the Hedgehog 2 where Tails made his debut. It still puts Tails up front and center in relevancy first in a major step for the franchise further then either Knuckles or Shadow as of late.

Though this same argument could be used to say why Eggman is likely. Which is why barring a miracle of either Eggman making it in or Louie G being right that Tails is still in the running despite the Mii costume. Tails and Eggman are going to be speculation rivals come next game. While the big 4 for Sonic is Tails, Eggman, Knuckles, and Shadow. I think a situation like Sephiroth raises Tails and Eggman slightly above even though the other 2 got the nods as assist trophies (In the case of Shadow, 3 times in a row). It could even be that Knuckles and Shadow were just easier to fit in as Assists where as Eggman would probably just be a variant of Wily as an assist and Tails is a less defined way of having him as an assist (Though I suppose attacking with the Tornado or what was one of my ideas before is that Tails sort of serves as someone who flies offscreen and the next time the one who summoned him drops or is hit to the blast zone Tails flies back them on stage for a second chance with that stock (But with the same percentage)).

Tails and Eggman have been the characters showing up in every Sonic game and/or media regardless if just Sonic is playable or not. And Tails is among the recognizable characters that people think of when they're thinking of the Sonic franchise. Which aside from possibly having dibs on being an echo, is part of why I can't see Shadow ever coming into Smash without either Tails or Eggman making it in the game too. (Even if say perhaps the next game has Shadow in as an echo in base game and they save Tails, Eggman, and/or Knuckles for DLC) Shadow has his unique abilities, but he's not as long tenured and built into the franchise then the other 3 not to mention how divisive he is (SA2 is my favorite Sonic game. By all means I should technically be a fan of Shadow... but much of what they did with Shadow afterward has soured me since then. I'm among those who think it would of been a better fate for the character to have remained dead after SA2 or at the very least go with what the end of the Team Dark story in Heroes implied that the Post-SA2 Shadow is not the original Shadow). I mean no offense to people like 7NATOR who may see this, but I don't think Shadow is one of those Sephiroth-esque figures of gaming. Even as someone who likes SA2 alot, saying he's on a level with or even bigger then Sephiroth is overrating him quite a bit

And while Knuckles is also a classic character, he's sort of in that limbo where he is part of the classic trio but he doesn't get as many common appearances compared to Tails, and that may hurt him even if he's arguably the best choice for a fighter just because of his iconic spiked gloves.

Ideally, all 4 would have a chance at getting in together next game. But the concern about that of course is we have no idea what the next game will be like. So there's alot of ifs to consider. But I am of the opinion that the appeal of having Mario & Luigi able to fight Sonic & Tails (Along with Donkey Kong and Diddy. As well as Ryu and Ken if Capcom is still playing fair) in a team battle has some special touch to it that might be too good to miss once the conversation starts talking about more then just Sonic in Smash. Only Eggman could have a similar argument in terms of having Mario & Sonic team up against Bowser and Eggman. Which is why I feel Tails and Eggman will probably be the big Sonic speculation fight next time. Knuckles and Shadow I just don't feel has that sort of appeal (For the echo exception (Can I call it Echoception :V) akin to Daisy before Waluigi where Shadow's more feasible as an echo compared to being considered a unique rep)

 

[Doc Monocle]

The first game featured a generic superhero guy from the instruction manual for a bad single player racing game

I am sure there are many F-Zero fans who liked his inclusion, and to say it is a bad racing game he is from is a subjective choice of words from an enjoyability standpoint. Perhaps Crash, a character I think you want, is said by someone somewhere in the world to come from a 'bad, three-dimensional platformer game.' Would you not be offended by that? If so, please remember other people's feelings. If not, please remember other people's feelings.

 

[fogbadge]

is it me or have we not had any "main" series sonic games since forces? we had that racing and presumably some mobile stuff but anything else?

 

[Otoad64]

is it me or have we not had any "main" series sonic games since forces? we had that racing and presumably some mobile stuff but anything else?

nope.

 

[fogbadge]

nope.

i hope theyve got something for this year

 

[Otoad64]

i hope theyve got something for this year

I'm pretty sure they do, or at least they announce when they're gonna announce something

 

[SonicMario]

is it me or have we not had any "main" series sonic games since forces? we had that racing and presumably some mobile stuff but anything else?

i hope theyve got something for this year

I think I heard something about Sega having really struggled with COVID so while I still expect the announcement of the next Sonic title by the end of the year. I won't be surprised if the release misses the anniversary deadline (Which can only really be a good thing tbh. We don't want another Sonic 06)

Maybe to make up for it Sega will have more Sonic game ports coming to the Switch this year. I've been waiting for a chance to have Adventure 1 & 2 on the Switch at the very least. (Assuming the next game isn't like... I don't know... an Adventure 1 remake at the very least.)

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I can settle for something being announced rather than released. There are series whose anniversaries bleed into the following year anyway, so it wouldn't be seen as weird.

At the very least, we might hear them say something on June during E3 period.

 

[Louie G.]

Something else I've been considering in Tails' favor that I didn't cover in my previous master post - the way that third parties in general seem to be going in FP2. Granted this is also susceptible to being broken, just like any trend or pattern, but I think it's still worth pointing out.

Steve and Sephiroth. These are our third parties in FP2, and they're both massive characters. Compared to FP1 dabbling in some smaller, arguably more "niche" properties like Persona, Banjo-Kazooie, Fatal Fury... we got the face of the biggest game in the whole world and one of the most iconic video game villains of all time. As someone who expected FP2 to be more "lowkey", this is definitely not what I was expecting!

What I feel is worth acknowledging about these characters is that they carry significant mass appeal. These two are the kind of characters who your average joe who doesn't even play Smash but has some history playing video games or some passing knowledge of what's hot could probably suggest. Not to say these characters aren't appealing to hardcore fans as well, but they're just as well characters for the casuals. I feel that another series that is often brought up among casual fans is Sonic the Hedgehog.

We obviously understand that Smash doesn't add additional fighters from third parties willy nilly. To your friend who just plays Smash whenever he comes over, I think it would probably strike him as a bit odd that Sonic is on the roster with all these other characters and Tails is nowhere to be found. I know I've had conversations with plenty of friends outside of the general "core" fanbase and speculation community who will suggest they add any variety of Sonic characters. I even remember playing pretend Smash Bros on the playground back in elementary school and one of my buds acting as Jet the Hawk of all things (I was Waluigi, I believe). There aren't a whole lot of series with ensemble casts requested so heavily since, in some cases, before the main character even got in. Tails, Knuckles and Shadow all saw a fair bit of conversation during the Brawl era. That was the wild west compared to nowadays, huh?

But yeah, outside of our general perception of community frontrunners and most wanteds, I believe that an additional Sonic character is something that would turn a lot of heads who may not be part of the hardcores. Because like, we're gonna buy the pass no matter what and I feel like Nintendo has caught onto that by now. Your casual buddy might not, so adding big names like Steve, Sephiroth and... Tails or Eggman maybe? That will get him to check it out for sure - that's the audience worth capitalizing on. And IMO this is the direction that FP2 is headed. My only concern is why they would hold off this long, but I think it works nicely to have them drop around Sonic's 30th anyway.

Something a friend of mine pointed out to me too - some people find it odd that Final Fantasy got a character over Sonic, but I think this is a classic case of east vs west. To my surprise, Final Fantasy actually has a few million sales over Sonic (159 million to 145 million respectively). So these series are roughly about the same size. As we all know Sonic isn't that huge in Japan relative to just how massive it is here, meanwhile I recall seeing Sephiroth place highly on a few Japanese polls well before he was officially confirmed. Could Sonic be on standby as a more western skewed response to Sephiroth? ...I wouldn't put too much stock in this theory, but it's another fun thing to consider.

And while Knuckles is also a classic character, he's sort of in that limbo where he is part of the classic trio but he doesn't get as many common appearances compared to Tails, and that may hurt him even if he's arguably the best choice for a fighter just because of his iconic spiked gloves.

Knuckles is my personal favorite Sonic character. I absolutely want him in the most.

I accepted that Tails has gotta make it first a long time ago, though. If Knuckles maintained that strong rival relationship with Sonic like he had back during Genesis era, I think there would be a stronger case for him. As it stands though, in the modern games, he's another one of Sonic's buddies. An important one of course, but he's the clear third wheel of the Sonic Heroes.

Maybe that's part of why I'm beginning to hope Tails makes it in after all... would make the case for Knuckles a lot stronger come next game!

 

[7NATOR]

I don't put too much weight on Aaron saying Knuckles or Shadow since I'm not sure he's really the one who'd decide the next character when it comes to Smash. Sega of Japan is notorious for not exactly letting decisions go to the West (Which has been unfortunately part of the reason the franchise has been mishandled as it has in the past). But one thing that could conceivably give Tails his likelihood of being next is think of how despite the constant miscommunication between the Sega of Japan and the West. Tails has been there and had more speaking roles even in games only Sonic is playable in (Unleashed, Colors, Generations, etc.) and Tails is even getting a major role in the live action film's sequel (His tails are even added to the logo) after his sequel hook in the post-credits scene in the first. While it's possible Knuckles will appear in the movie (Apparently there's a rumor about that), Tails will probably have a big part next time. And while that could also be coincidence because a movie called Sonic the Hedgehog 2 would naturally follow after the game called Sonic the Hedgehog 2 where Tails made his debut. It still puts Tails up front and center in relevancy first in a major step for the franchise further then either Knuckles or Shadow as of late.

Though this same argument could be used to say why Eggman is likely. Which is why barring a miracle of either Eggman making it in or Louie G being right that Tails is still in the running despite the Mii costume. Tails and Eggman are going to be speculation rivals come next game. While the big 4 for Sonic is Tails, Eggman, Knuckles, and Shadow. I think a situation like Sephiroth raises Tails and Eggman slightly above even though the other 2 got the nods as assist trophies (In the case of Shadow, 3 times in a row). It could even be that Knuckles and Shadow were just easier to fit in as Assists where as Eggman would probably just be a variant of Wily as an assist and Tails is a less defined way of having him as an assist (Though I suppose attacking with the Tornado or what was one of my ideas before is that Tails sort of serves as someone who flies offscreen and the next time the one who summoned him drops or is hit to the blast zone Tails flies back them on stage for a second chance with that stock (But with the same percentage)).

Tails and Eggman have been the characters showing up in every Sonic game and/or media regardless if just Sonic is playable or not. And Tails is among the recognizable characters that people think of when they're thinking of the Sonic franchise. Which aside from possibly having dibs on being an echo, is part of why I can't see Shadow ever coming into Smash without either Tails or Eggman making it in the game too. (Even if say perhaps the next game has Shadow in as an echo in base game and they save Tails, Eggman, and/or Knuckles for DLC) Shadow has his unique abilities, but he's not as long tenured and built into the franchise then the other 3 not to mention how divisive he is (SA2 is my favorite Sonic game. By all means I should technically be a fan of Shadow... but much of what they did with Shadow afterward has soured me since then. I'm among those who think it would of been a better fate for the character to have remained dead after SA2 or at the very least go with what the end of the Team Dark story in Heroes implied that the Post-SA2 Shadow is not the original Shadow). I mean no offense to people like 7NATOR who may see this, but I don't think Shadow is one of those Sephiroth-esque figures of gaming. Even as someone who likes SA2 alot, saying he's on a level with or even bigger then Sephiroth is overrating him quite a bit

And while Knuckles is also a classic character, he's sort of in that limbo where he is part of the classic trio but he doesn't get as many common appearances compared to Tails, and that may hurt him even if he's arguably the best choice for a fighter just because of his iconic spiked gloves.

Ideally, all 4 would have a chance at getting in together next game. But the concern about that of course is we have no idea what the next game will be like. So there's alot of ifs to consider. But I am of the opinion that the appeal of having Mario & Luigi able to fight Sonic & Tails (Along with Donkey Kong and Diddy. As well as Ryu and Ken if Capcom is still playing fair) in a team battle has some special touch to it that might be too good to miss once the conversation starts talking about more then just Sonic in Smash. Only Eggman could have a similar argument in terms of having Mario & Sonic team up against Bowser and Eggman. Which is why I feel Tails and Eggman will probably be the big Sonic speculation fight next time. Knuckles and Shadow I just don't feel has that sort of appeal (For the echo exception (Can I call it Echoception :V) akin to Daisy before Waluigi where Shadow's more feasible as an echo compared to being considered a unique rep)

-I think the fact that despite Shadow not making as frequent appearances as Tails and Eggman, as well as being heavily divisive as a character, the fact that he's still the 2nd Most Popular character, along with him for a long time being high in requests when it comes to another Sonic character, sometimes the most in fact, actually Give more reason why I could see Shadow being picked over Eggman and Tails

-I can see Sephiroth being more impactful character, most definitely, but no, It's actually arguable that Shadow is on the same level of Sephiroth in terms of recognizability, and there's good evidence to suggest he's more recognizable

-I think People would be down for a Sonic and Shadow vs Mario and Luigi match, or Sonic and Shadow vs Cloud and Sephiroth. I think there even be a Special touch to some fans if we could have Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, Sonic, and Shadow in the same Fighting game, if you know what I'm talking about


Keep in mind, I don't disagree with anything you're saying about Eggman or Tails. It be dumb to underrate those 2 because those characters have alot of merits...but I wouldn't underrate Shadow either.

But this is the Tails thread, not the Shadow thread though, So I leave it at this

Something else I've been considering in Tails' favor that I didn't cover in my previous master post - the way that third parties in general seem to be going in FP2. Granted this is also susceptible to being broken, just like any trend or pattern, but I think it's still worth pointing out.

Steve and Sephiroth. These are our third parties in FP2, and they're both massive characters. Compared to FP1 dabbling in some smaller, arguably more "niche" properties like Persona, Banjo-Kazooie, Fatal Fury... we got the face of the biggest game in the whole world and one of the most iconic video game villains of all time. As someone who expected FP2 to be more "lowkey", this is definitely not what I was expecting!

What I feel is worth acknowledging about these characters is that they carry significant mass appeal. These two are the kind of characters who your average joe who doesn't even play Smash but has some history playing video games or some passing knowledge of what's hot could probably suggest. Not to say these characters aren't appealing to hardcore fans as well, but they're just as well characters for the casuals. I feel that another series that is often brought up among casual fans is Sonic the Hedgehog.

We obviously understand that Smash doesn't add additional fighters from third parties willy nilly. To your friend who just plays Smash whenever he comes over, I think it would probably strike him as a bit odd that Sonic is on the roster with all these other characters and Tails is nowhere to be found. I know I've had conversations with plenty of friends outside of the general "core" fanbase and speculation community who will suggest they add any variety of Sonic characters. I even remember playing pretend Smash Bros on the playground back in elementary school and one of my buds acting as Jet the Hawk of all things (I was Waluigi, I believe). There aren't a whole lot of series with ensemble casts requested so heavily since, in some cases, before the main character even got in. Tails, Knuckles and Shadow all saw a fair bit of conversation during the Brawl era. That was the wild west compared to nowadays, huh?

But yeah, outside of our general perception of community frontrunners and most wanteds, I believe that an additional Sonic character is something that would turn a lot of heads who may not be part of the hardcores. Because like, we're gonna buy the pass no matter what and I feel like Nintendo has caught onto that by now. Your casual buddy might not, so adding big names like Steve, Sephiroth and... Tails or Eggman maybe? That will get him to check it out for sure - that's the audience worth capitalizing on. And IMO this is the direction that FP2 is headed. My only concern is why they would hold off this long, but I think it works nicely to have them drop around Sonic's 30th anyway.

Something a friend of mine pointed out to me too - some people find it odd that Final Fantasy got a character over Sonic, but I think this is a classic case of east vs west. To my surprise, Final Fantasy actually has a few million sales over Sonic (159 million to 145 million respectively). So these series are roughly about the same size. As we all know Sonic isn't that huge in Japan relative to just how massive it is here, meanwhile I recall seeing Sephiroth place highly on a few Japanese polls well before he was officially confirmed. Could Sonic be on standby as a more western skewed response to Sephiroth? ...I wouldn't put too much stock in this theory, but it's another fun thing to consider.



Knuckles is my personal favorite Sonic character. I absolutely want him in the most.

I accepted that Tails has gotta make it first a long time ago, though. If Knuckles maintained that strong rival relationship with Sonic like he had back during Genesis era, I think there would be a stronger case for him. As it stands though, in the modern games, he's another one of Sonic's buddies. An important one of course, but he's the clear third wheel of the Sonic Heroes.

Maybe that's part of why I'm beginning to hope Tails makes it in after all... would make the case for Knuckles a lot stronger come next game!

Agree with everything you said here

-Yeah Sonic is much more Western Oriented than Final Fantasy is, as you said, So I could definitely see another Sonic character being one around June (where E3 would have been) especially since that's also the same month as the Sonic Anniversary

-The only Sonic characters I've ever seen on Japanese Polls are Shadow, and to a much lesser extent Knuckles. even then they don't make frequent appearances. Keep in mind this is only in reference to Smash polls, not Sega polls or anything like that

-This Year does need somewhat of a big character. Nintendo and Sakurai knew this would run into 2021, or 2 years. You can't just add in the big characters all in 2020, and leave 2021 with more "Niche" picks

They need Smash to have somewhat of momentum in 2021. And as you said, Sonic characters are a good way to have even Casual players turn their heads

Plus, Nintendo is gonna be selling the full pass in 2021. Besides people that buy their characters separately, there are people that Wait until a Certain amount of characters they might prefer or recognize appear, before buying the entire pass. The Presence of Eggman, Tails, Shadow, or/& Knuckles on the Pass will definitely add some value to the Full Pass, when people go to look into purchasing it, because they are Recognizable characters

 

[fogbadge]

-I think the fact that despite Shadow not making as frequent appearances as Tails and Eggman, as well as being heavily divisive as a character, the fact that he's still the 2nd Most Popular character, along with him for a long time being high in requests when it comes to another Sonic character, sometimes the most in fact, actually Give more reason why I could see Shadow being picked over Eggman and Tails

-I can see Sephiroth being more impactful character, most definitely, but no, It's actually arguable that Shadow is on the same level of Sephiroth in terms of recognizability, and there's good evidence to suggest he's more recognizable

-I think People would be down for a Sonic and Shadow vs Mario and Luigi match, or Sonic and Shadow vs Cloud and Sephiroth. I think there even be a Special touch to some fans if we could have Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, Sonic, and Shadow in the same Fighting game, if you know what I'm talking about


Keep in mind, I don't disagree with anything you're saying about Eggman or Tails. It be dumb to underrate those 2 because those characters have alot of merits...but I wouldn't underrate Shadow either.

But this is the Tails thread, not the Shadow thread though, So I leave it at this



Agree with everything you said here

-Yeah Sonic is much more Western Oriented than Final Fantasy is, as you said, So I could definitely see another Sonic character being one around June (where E3 would have been) especially since that's also the same month as the Sonic Anniversary

-The only Sonic characters I've ever seen on Japanese Polls are Shadow, and to a much lesser extent Knuckles. even then they don't make frequent appearances. Keep in mind this is only in reference to Smash polls, not Sega polls or anything like that

-This Year does need somewhat of a big character. Nintendo and Sakurai knew this would run into 2021, or 2 years. You can't just add in the big characters all in 2020, and leave 2021 with more "Niche" picks

They need Smash to have somewhat of momentum in 2021. And as you said, Sonic characters are a good way to have even Casual players turn their heads

Plus, Nintendo is gonna be selling the full pass in 2021. Besides people that buy their characters separately, there are people that Wait until a Certain amount of characters they might prefer or recognize appear, before buying the entire pass. The Presence of Eggman, Tails, Shadow, or/& Knuckles on the Pass will definitely add some value to the Full Pass, when people go to look into purchasing it, because they are Recognizable characters

surely it would be sonic and shadow against Mario and Wario

 

[7NATOR]

surely it would be sonic and shadow against Mario and Wario

That works too. Though to be honest, while I get the Similiarties between Wario and Shadow, I never thought it was 1 to 1 like people might make it out to be. but yeah, that's a match up as well

 

[Otoad64]

That works too. Though to be honest, while I get the Similiarties between Wario and Shadow, I never thought it was 1 to 1 like people might make it out to be. but yeah, that's a match up as well

well besides Mario/Sonic, Luigi/Tails, Peach/Amy and Bowser/Eggman nothing is really 1 to 1

 

[SonicMario]

-I can see Sephiroth being more impactful character, most definitely, but no, It's actually arguable that Shadow is on the same level of Sephiroth in terms of recognizability, and there's good evidence to suggest he's more recognizable

Recognizability is a bit of a double edged sword in Shadow's case. Sure, it's arguable that on the internet the rival of Sonic that debuted in Sonic Adventure 2 and made mostly regular appearances since then is going to get most who watch the reveals say some variance of "Oh it's Shadow!" maybe even in some cases more then the major villain from Final Fantasy 7 from just looks alone. Though perhaps that's why the moment most knew the character was Sephiroth was not when we got a close-up of Sephiroth... it only took just a few notes of One Winged Angel to make that happen. Shadow has themes of his own, but he hasn't had a consistent theme through all his appearences.

For fans like us, it might be easy to have a musical indication of Shadow since we may know at least the opening or beat to Throw It All Away (SA2), This Machine (Heroes), All Hail Shadow (Shadow's game/Sonic 06), or All I Am (Shadow's game) if for some reason they did a trailer for Shadow in a similar fashion to Sephiroth. But some of Shadow's recognizability comes from... the rather negative side of recognizability in that many of his post-SA2 appearances ruined his character for a good chunk or just makes him a laughable meme for those outside the Sonic fanbase. Granted the Sonic franchise itself has been kind of a joke on the internet ever since Sonic 06. But Shadow the Hedgehog is a particularly rather ridiculed part of Modern Sonic, certainly mostly stemming from his own video game where Sega made the weird decision to have him use guns and even... swear. (Granted it's only the words Damn and Hell) A wild shift from the generally family-friendly toned Sonic franchise. Sure this sort of publicity arguably makes him more in the spotlight then Sephiroth. But it's not exactly the good kind of spotlight. Sephiroth's kept his reputation over this years as this badass villain (Other then some inter-final fantasy fandom wars where they may call him a Momma's boy when comparing him to say... Kefka). While Shadow has some of the stench of the Sonic franchise's downfall from grace around him.

While technically the entire franchise may be dragged down by this logic, there's a keen sense that the smarter decision should Sonic gain a non-echo character is add a more classic character that still has some ties to the franchise's golden age (Which is surely when Sonic 3 was out. I think the early 2000's was a big step for Sonic as well and even when I first became a fan. But there should be hardly a doubt that the mid-90's is a place the Sonic franchise will never get to have back again. Similiar to how aside from a brief moment of Pokemon Go. Pokemon still hasn't been quite the cultural phenomenon it was in Gen 1/Early Gen 2 (I only mean of course in terms of how much attention the franchise was getting, I'm not implying there hasn't been good Pokemon games since then. I'm not an ignorant Genwunner. Though it arguably has applied to Smash because if you count Pokemon Trainer as 3 characters. 6 of the Pokemon are from Gen 1. 7 if you decide to include Pichu among Generation 2 where perhaps the popularity was still at a pretty high peak once Gen 2 started)

I get that the fanbase for Shadow can be very loud and vocal. But characters like Tails, Eggman, and Knuckles arguably have more of the recognizability factor among those who are only a little vaguely familiar with Sonic from his classic days who aren't going to show up in Favorite Sonic character polls. And while I know you continue to refute it, for how ever long Echo Fighters are a thing in Smash. Shadow's among those characters that make the most sense. I also think recent matters may put a dent in Shadow's favor in terms of 2 things: It's Mania, the classic game with Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles all playable that's had the largest success in the Sonic franchise in a long while. While in Forces the game where only Sonic, Classic Sonic, an Avatar, and Shadow in a few bonus levels (And any modern Sonic level after you've completed the Shadow bonus levels) did not do so hot. Which may just be unfortunate circumstances in terms of the most recent mainline games. But there's also now the live action movie(/s) that had only Sonic and Eggman in the first. And Tails front and center in not just a post-credits scene, but in a coming sequel. And the first Sonic movie turned out to have one of the best box office performances for a video game movie ever. Perhaps it's just two unfair coincidences that gives more credence to more classic characters. But it's why Shadow's supposed popularity in the Sonic fanbase may need a little more strength backing compared to what is doing the best financially and critically for the Sonic franchise at the moment. And neither Mania or the live action movies have much of a sign of Shadow in them. It might take something like an Adventure 2 remake to put Shadow back fully in that sort of fawning spotlight. (Though I'd certainly welcome an Adventure 2 remake even at the cost of potentially making Shadow a bigger threat to get in Smash before Tails. Just because I'd fanboy so hard at such an announcement lol)

 

[7NATOR]

Recognizability is a bit of a double edged sword in Shadow's case. Sure, it's arguable that on the internet the rival of Sonic that debuted in Sonic Adventure 2 and made mostly regular appearances since then is going to get most who watch the reveals say some variance of "Oh it's Shadow!" maybe even in some cases more then the major villain from Final Fantasy 7 from just looks alone. Though perhaps that's why the moment most knew the character was Sephiroth was not when we got a close-up of Sephiroth... it only took just a few notes of One Winged Angel to make that happen. Shadow has themes of his own, but he hasn't had a consistent theme through all his appearences.

For fans like us, it might be easy to have a musical indication of Shadow since we may know at least the opening or beat to Throw It All Away (SA2), This Machine (Heroes), All Hail Shadow (Shadow's game/Sonic 06), or All I Am (Shadow's game) if for some reason they did a trailer for Shadow in a similar fashion to Sephiroth. But some of Shadow's recognizability comes from... the rather negative side of recognizability in that many of his post-SA2 appearances ruined his character for a good chunk or just makes him a laughable meme for those outside the Sonic fanbase. Granted the Sonic franchise itself has been kind of a joke on the internet ever since Sonic 06. But Shadow the Hedgehog is a particularly rather ridiculed part of Modern Sonic, certainly mostly stemming from his own video game where Sega made the weird decision to have him use guns and even... swear. (Granted it's only the words Damn and Hell) A wild shift from the generally family-friendly toned Sonic franchise. Sure this sort of publicity arguably makes him more in the spotlight then Sephiroth. But it's not exactly the good kind of spotlight. Sephiroth's kept his reputation over this years as this badass villain (Other then some inter-final fantasy fandom wars where they may call him a Momma's boy when comparing him to say... Kefka). While Shadow has some of the stench of the Sonic franchise's downfall from grace around him.

While technically the entire franchise may be dragged down by this logic, there's a keen sense that the smarter decision should Sonic gain a non-echo character is add a more classic character that still has some ties to the franchise's golden age (Which is surely when Sonic 3 was out. I think the early 2000's was a big step for Sonic as well and even when I first became a fan. But there should be hardly a doubt that the mid-90's is a place the Sonic franchise will never get to have back again. Similiar to how aside from a brief moment of Pokemon Go. Pokemon still hasn't been quite the cultural phenomenon it was in Gen 1/Early Gen 2 (I only mean of course in terms of how much attention the franchise was getting, I'm not implying there hasn't been good Pokemon games since then. I'm not an ignorant Genwunner. Though it arguably has applied to Smash because if you count Pokemon Trainer as 3 characters. 6 of the Pokemon are from Gen 1. 7 if you decide to include Pichu among Generation 2 where perhaps the popularity was still at a pretty high peak once Gen 2 started)

I get that the fanbase for Shadow can be very loud and vocal. But characters like Tails, Eggman, and Knuckles arguably have more of the recognizability factor among those who are only a little vaguely familiar with Sonic from his classic days who aren't going to show up in Favorite Sonic character polls. And while I know you continue to refute it, for how ever long Echo Fighters are a thing in Smash. Shadow's among those characters that make the most sense. I also think recent matters may put a dent in Shadow's favor in terms of 2 things: It's Mania, the classic game with Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles all playable that's had the largest success in the Sonic franchise in a long while. While in Forces the game where only Sonic, Classic Sonic, an Avatar, and Shadow in a few bonus levels (And any modern Sonic level after you've completed the Shadow bonus levels) did not do so hot. Which may just be unfortunate circumstances in terms of the most recent mainline games. But there's also now the live action movie(/s) that had only Sonic and Eggman in the first. And Tails front and center in not just a post-credits scene, but in a coming sequel. And the first Sonic movie turned out to have one of the best box office performances for a video game movie ever. Perhaps it's just two unfair coincidences that gives more credence to more classic characters. But it's why Shadow's supposed popularity in the Sonic fanbase may need a little more strength backing compared to what is doing the best financially and critically for the Sonic franchise at the moment. And neither Mania or the live action movies have much of a sign of Shadow in them. It might take something like an Adventure 2 remake to put Shadow back fully in that sort of fawning spotlight. (Though I'd certainly welcome an Adventure 2 remake even at the cost of potentially making Shadow a bigger threat to get in Smash before Tails. Just because I'd fanboy so hard at such an announcement lol)

-I know Shadow has alot of haters and ridicule. I don't think that the amount of hate Shadow gets will overshadow the amount of love that Shadow gets though.

Plus one could say this could give publicity in a way. Shadow's diviseness could actually be a way of giving more publicity to Smash. I know not all publictity is good, but you can't lie, that there may be some interest in asking the question of how Shadow got in over Eggman, Tails, & Knuckles, how Smash might be celebrating a Legacy that shouldn't be celebrated by adding Shadow, all of that. honestly this is a stretch. don't read too much into this excerpt

-Don't forget that SA1 and SA2 are considered Gems in the franchise as well. I understand the Classic era was a bigger deal, and the Adventure games have gotten flak in the 2010's, but remember that the Adventure era also did get in alot of New Sonic fans, especially when SA2 hit the Gamecube, as that brought in alot of Nintendo fans and such.

You also see alot of people wishing to return to Adventure era gameplay, and Many people want a Sonic Adventure 3.

-Eggman, Tails, & Knuckles are more Recognizable than Shadow, I'm not even gonna refute that

What I will say is that, to be honest, I don't think we are at a point where the amount of Recognizability gives those 3 that big of an edge over Shadow. Shadow himself is still a Recognizable character anyway, and even if people might not know exactly about Shadow, they still will at least know he's Sonic related, and might even be interested in this "Evil or Dark Sonic" if this were there first introduction into him.

If we were talking about the Super Casuals on the street, than yes maybe some won't even Recognize Shadow like that, or they'll just Recognize Shadow as Evil Sonic, but they more often will recognize Eggman, Tails, and Knuckles. at the same token, these same people will Call Steve "Minecraft guy", refer to Link as Zelda, and might not even recognize Sephiroth like that either


Anyone that's Casually into games, and would be ones that Nintendo is targeting with the Fighter Pass, will Recognize Shadow. That's the gist of it


-Forces Sold strongly though, as Confirmed by Sega. No I don't think it did better than Mania,, but unlike it's critical score, Sonic Forces was a success and that can't be denied. And I don't believe they factored in the Mobile game, which also has been very successful

-Regarding the movie, I can't really talk now. I will say that Really, Eggman mainly benefits from the movie, not Tails, since Eggman had a big part of the movie. Sonic Movie 2 hasn't filmed, so if someone introduced to Sonic through the movie went into looking to buy Fighter Pass 2, they aren't gonna be too familiar with Tails. He only appeared for like a minute, or less. They'll know Tails as that Fox from end of the Movie, not as Tails

Doesn't mean they wouldn't have interest, since I Imagine that them not knowing the role of Tails will entice them to see what the character is about, if they were in FP2. On that Same logic though, this could be applied to Shadow & Knuckles, despite them both not being in the movie. Shadow is gonna be Dark Sonic to these people, so they'll wonder why Sonic is so Dark and "Evil" and Edgy, and with Knuckles, because they know about the echidna Clan, and Knuckles is an echidna, that also sparks some interest


-Regarding the Echo thing, I'll admit that yes Shadow does work as an echo, and honestly if Shadow didn't have the merits to get in as his own character, than I would throw in the Towel

The thing is that that's not the case. Shadow does have his own merits to get in as Playable. you might not think that because you don't think Shadow can get in over Eggman and Tails. I understand that sentiment, and I'm not mad at you if you believe Eggman and Tails would get in over Shadow. They have their merits deinfitly to do so

I'm just saying that I do believe Shadow does have the merits to get in over the other characters. I do understand that yeah, It is kind of hard to see the reasons why, especially since Eggman and Tails could cover these options. But I wouldn't count Shadow out since yes, His popularity is still a big thing. Sega still gives him alot of presence, and His Legacy, while heavily flawed, did get alot of new people into Sonic.

 

[Peripuff]

Ugh why does Smashboards keep stopping sending notifications to me on certain threads.

Tails discussion has been going up very fast as of late, it’s great to see

 

[SonicMario]

Sonic Colors Remastered listed in portfolio of German voice-over studio https://t.co/Y2kwVPiwn2 pic.twitter.com/Z8Oy0LmgzL

— Gematsu (@gematsu) April 9, 2021

Sonic Colors looks to be getting ported to modern systems. This is something of a good thing since it finally escapes Wii exclusivity, and a generally good Sonic game that even has the fox we root for here in many cutscenes.

Though I am slightly worried that this is the only or just one of few things that come out this year. I'm not expecting the 30th Anniversery title by the end of the year or anything, but I'll still be somewhat disappointed if a Sonic Colors port is the only thing brought to the current generation to hold things over until the next proper Sonic game.

 

[fogbadge]

Sonic Colors Remastered listed in portfolio of German voice-over studio https://t.co/Y2kwVPiwn2 pic.twitter.com/Z8Oy0LmgzL

— Gematsu (@gematsu) April 9, 2021

Sonic Colors looks to be getting ported to modern systems. This is something of a good thing since it finally escapes Wii exclusivity, and a generally good Sonic game that even has the fox we root for here in many cutscenes.

Though I am slightly worried that this is the only or just one of few things that come out this year. I'm not expecting the 30th Anniversery title by the end of the year or anything, but I'll still be somewhat disappointed if a Sonic Colors port is the only thing brought to the current generation to hold things over until the next proper Sonic game.

wow nearly five years since the main sonic game and we get a port

 

[Peripuff]

Sonic Colors Remastered listed in portfolio of German voice-over studio https://t.co/Y2kwVPiwn2 pic.twitter.com/Z8Oy0LmgzL

— Gematsu (@gematsu) April 9, 2021

Sonic Colors looks to be getting ported to modern systems. This is something of a good thing since it finally escapes Wii exclusivity, and a generally good Sonic game that even has the fox we root for here in many cutscenes.

Though I am slightly worried that this is the only or just one of few things that come out this year. I'm not expecting the 30th Anniversery title by the end of the year or anything, but I'll still be somewhat disappointed if a Sonic Colors port is the only thing brought to the current generation to hold things over until the next proper Sonic game.

I wasn't expecting this, though I suppose it would make sense in hindsight.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I can see Sega's logic in doing a contemporary remaster of Colors. Its the only significant console game of the last 13 years not in HD, is still fairly popular to most casual/some hardcore fans, & and there's no obvious element to it (Werehog, forced motion controls, etc) to turn off players not familiar with it.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

And at least those Two fanbases are better than Pokemon. I feel bad for anyone wanting 1 specific Pokemon

He just said he thinks it makes the most Sense...that's really it



Global Smash Roster

It's almost neck and neck, but currently, Eggman is up by one vote

----------------------------

Also I just felt like posting this but

This video has 182 Million views. That means at least 182 Million people are familiar with Tails, Eggman, Shadow.

I haven't seen videos with Sephiroth that were that big. I only say this because I know the idea of Another Sonic character is undermined, but I think people Sometimes forget that Eggman, Tails, Shadow, & Knuckles are well known characters that people have been wanting to see in Smash for a long while now, especially the latter 3. Eggman being this popular is more recent though, but I'm not gonna get on him considering how important he is to Sonic, plus with him being in the movie

It's funny that this fan video has more views than the number of units sold for every game in the Sonic franchise combined. I'm assuming it was mostly Mario fans who watched this video because of this.

 

[Janx_uwu]

Shadow has themes of his own, but he hasn't had a consistent theme through all his appearences.

I'd argue the opposite, actually. All Hail Shadow has been very consistent in appearances. It was so well liked as a credits theme in Shadow The Hedgehog that it was brought back and covered by the legendary Crush 40 in 06. While it didn't appear for a while after, neither did Shadow, so that's understandable. In Forces-his big return-his first appearance in the base game's story used All Hail Shadow as background music. And in Team Sonic Racing, his Team Ultimate Theme is also All Hail Shadow. It's his most consistent theme in the series, so I don't think it would be outrageous to consider Sakurai choosing it specifically for the reveal trailer.

 

[SonicMario]

https://sonicthehedgehog.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F652170663807893504
Looks like something of a Sonic direct is coming Thursday! I'm hoping for any sign of Adventure 1 & 2 getting on the Switch in some fashion

 

[Peripuff]

https://sonicthehedgehog.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F652170663807893504
Looks like something of a Sonic direct is coming Thursday! I'm hoping for any sign of Adventure 1 & 2 getting on the Switch in some fashion

Omg! I can’t wait!

 

[fogbadge]

please have a new game

 

[kaithehedgefox]

please have a new game

No More Heroes 3 will be releasing soon, and Travis (No More Heroes) got a mii costume, Arthur (Ghosts and Goblins) got a mii costume shortly after the release of the latest Ghosts and Goblins game. Sonic's 30th anniversary is coming up soon, I think it would be hillarious if we got some sonic character deluxe mii costumes released with challenger pack 10!

 

[volbound1700]

This is my first post in months as I quit the board after getting upset at the Mods. When I started Smashboards back in 2006 waiting on Brawl, the rules were a lot more laxed and it was an enjoyable forum to post on. Now they are so controlling and it just isn't as fun of a board to post on anymore.

Now back to topic, I would be HIGHLY surprised if we got another Sonic character. I love the series and I want it but I think the Mii Costumes are what we are stuck with. I wish they could fix the costumes, similar to Sans or one of the major costumes. I also think custom victory themes for Mii Characters would be great.

I see Sakurai\Nintendo's selection for Smash to be very Japanese-Centric. Take Sephiroth for example, I recently got FF7 and I don't see the hype. The character is far more popular in Japan than the West. However, he is iconic in Japan and made the roster despite being the second FF7 character. FF7 wasn't even a Nintendo title when it came out as well.

Then you have IP like Doom that is far more iconic than any of the games on the list. Doom Series is still alive and well today. It was the father of perhaps the #1 all-time selling video game type (First-Person Shooters) but has no love in Japan and therefore no hope in Smash.

I see the last two characters as being primarily Japanese Characters and we may get both a First-Party and Third-Party to finish out. I do think there is a surprise based on the bonus character leak (I am not so sure it is a character, it could be a mode addition). A bonus character would definitely be Nintendo themed.

I do feel like Legend of Zelda is due a character. It is far more iconic than let's say Fire Emblem but has significantly less characters. Kirby Series is another that is likely overdue as well.

In Summary, I would be ecstatic if we got ANY Sonic character at all. I have been mostly disappointed with the DLC additions but I recognize how great a game Smash Ultimate is and I truly appreciate the fan service Nintendo has given to the game (even if it has favored Japan heavily).

To be honest as well, you can't blame Nintendo for favoring Japan since it is their primary and most die-hard market. While the West tends to favor more Microsoft and Sony (especially through Wii, Wii U, Gamecube, N64 eras), Nintendo has always been the king in Japan and can depend on that market.

No More Heroes 3 will be releasing soon, and Travis (No More Heroes) got a mii costume, Arthur (Ghosts and Goblins) got a mii costume shortly after the release of the latest Ghosts and Goblins game. Sonic's 30th anniversary is coming up soon, I think it would be hillarious if we got some sonic character deluxe mii costumes released with challenger pack 10!

I would love that. At this point, I prefer more costumes including fixing the current 2 ones already released to be full characters. I would rather get new series like Crash or Rayman with the DLC spots (although I doubt we will get either).

 

[fogbadge]

This is my first post in months as I quit the board after getting upset at the Mods. When I started Smashboards back in 2006 waiting on Brawl, the rules were a lot more laxed and it was an enjoyable forum to post on. Now they are so controlling and it just isn't as fun of a board to post on anymore.

that kinda sounds like youre trying to bait them

 

[volbound1700]

that kinda sounds like youre trying to bait them

Nope, just constructive criticism. To the credit of the board moderators, they did NOT ban me. I just wish they could lighten up a little bit. I was not a fan of the changes of this board over the years. Heck, I don't even like having the structured forums for characters. In the past, people could just start forums willy-nilly which wasn't necessarily a bad thing because it was like sitting around the table with friends to discuss new topics. I think everything is so locked-down now, almost prison-like.

 

[fogbadge]

Nope, just constructive criticism. To the credit of the board moderators, they did NOT ban me. I just wish they could lighten up a little bit. I was not a fan of the changes of this board over the years. Heck, I don't even like having the structured forums for characters. In the past, people could just start forums willy-nilly which wasn't necessarily a bad thing because it was like sitting around the table with friends to discuss new topics. I think everything is so locked-down now, almost prison-like.

ah i see.

 

[fogbadge]

wouldnt it be nice if there was a year of tails like the year of luigi