I Will Believe In Myself: Miles "Tails" Prower Support Thread

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Nintendo had that mentality in the 1990s and guess what, all of the third parties went to Sega, Sony, and later Xbox. That is why the PS2 dominated Nintendo's systems. Even to this day, it still seems like Sony is ahead of Nintendo. Nintendo's hubris such as what you pointed out above has cost them $$$ in the past and nearly driven them out of the console market.
That's apples to oranges, my friend; Third-Party developers turned to competitors for much more practical and economic reasons.

When Sega entered the scene as a viable competitor, developers joined on because it meant another audience they could sell to, after all, you can make more money selling your product on two platforms instead of only one. In addition, at the time, Nintendo was implementing some very strict rules for what can be published on their platform (primarily during the NES days) which lead to companies not only having to limit the number of games per year but also have to avoid including potential questionable material, leading to censoring games or not releasing them outside of Japan. It only made sense for a developer to look for a less-restrictive place to sell their work, and honestly, if Sega wasn't successful at the time, the support would have been minimal and even then, the developers didn't leave Nintendo outright, they just sold on two platforms.

By the time Sony entered the picture, developers were turned off from Nintendo because the company insisted on using a less-efficient and more expensive medium, the cartridge. Switching to CDs at the time meant lower production cost and the ability to make larger games. As such, the Playstation was a runaway hit which caused a feedback loop of developers seeing Nintendo as less profitable to sell on (due to the higher cost and lower consumer number) which in turn would make the N64 fall further behind in sales and thus become less of a priority to develop on. However, during this time, Nintendo's handheld continued to dominate and the Third-Party companies were still strongly supporting them in that department.

Really, what it boils down to is that developers will support what they believe will make them money. If a Nintendo system is easy and minimally expensive to develop for and the device has made good enough sales, then they will support it. The only time they pull the plug is when they don't see the profits being enough to offset the effort and cost. The Switch is successful enough and has a large enough audience that pulling out over something petty like one measly character not getting into a single game is still bad business.
 
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I think Tails would be really fun in Smash. Sadly, I don't think we will ever get any more Sonic characters unless it's an echo, which would probably mean Shadow (but I wouldn't complain too badly about that). Regardless, Tails is still a really good choice.
 
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I think Tails would be really fun in Smash. Sadly, I don't think we will ever get any more Sonic characters unless it's an echo, which would probably mean Shadow (but I wouldn't complain too badly about that). Regardless, Tails is still a really good choice.
I legitimately don't know what makes someone an echo- Ken and Ryu seem nothing alive. Even the video to reveal Ken explained over five differences.

If the characters can use the same build, they seem eligible to be echoes. I would not be surprised to see Tails echo Sonic (and then have a new up smash, ability to fly somewhat, and maybe even a gun attack).
 

SonicMario

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I legitimately don't know what makes someone an echo- Ken and Ryu seem nothing alive. Even the video to reveal Ken explained over five differences.

If the characters can use the same build, they seem eligible to be echoes. I would not be surprised to see Tails echo Sonic (and then have a new up smash, ability to fly somewhat, and maybe even a gun attack).
I went back and forth between saying whether Tails being an echo was possible during Ultimate's speculation. I still don't expect any 2nd Sonic character to be playable in Ultimate now (Though I admit if there's more characters outside the first fighter pass I'll probably be crossing my fingers for Tails at least slightly). But a big way that could lead Tails to being an echo is how Tails was essentially the Ken of Sonic the Fighters of which much of Sonic's moveset with the A moves are based off of.

Still, the ideal scenario would be Tails as an Isbelle style semi-clone and if Sonic's allowed more then that get Shadow as the echo so you have more people happy (Well other then the fans that might of preferred Eggman and/or Knuckles). But I would take Tails as a Ken style echo over nothing at all.
 

SonicMario

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Apologies for the double post. But I think it's warranted.

The Tails and the Knuckles costumes are the first returning Smash 4 3rd party mii costumes coming back. On one hand it's good to have those back at last, I used Mii Gunner alot solely because there was a Tails costume added. And will again in Smash Ultimate.

However, for anyone who was desperately hoping there was any kind of remaining chance for another Sonic character. This was yet another nail in the coffin along with Tails being front and center in the spirits section and Joker being the 3rd Sega owned character.

I figured this was coming sooner or later so I was well prepared. But condolences to anyone who was holding on to any string of hope left. I wish Tails was a playable character as much as anyone else that actively posted here. But it's not happening in Ultimate.
 

volbound1700

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Yay!!!! I am happy the costumes returned. I just wish they could have removed the decapitated face of Tails and just cover the Mii's face.

As for Tails being playable, it could still happen but is very unlikely. I don't see Tails being in Fighter Pass 1.
 

CaptainAmerica

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Man, it's been a while since I came here.

I was expecting we'd get the Knux and Tails costumes back, but I'm a bit disappointed that the Tails face is still the mascot hat and not covering the face. Considering how unexpectedly awesome it was to play Skull Kid, it'd have been nice to get a fake Tails that looked more like Tails and less like a Mii-in-a-costume Tails.

Pity. Still on the fence about whether or not to get it. I never really played Miis that much, and I'm not hyped about any of the DLC announced so far, but that could always change. The stage builder looks beyond incredible though, so I'm really intrigued to get my hands on that.

Still, I haven't been playing much Smash lately since I really wanted to replay BotW, and then I needed to binge GoT again in time for the new season. I'm still behind on binging Avengers again in time for that as well (the end of this month is gonna feature all of my favorite characters dying...). And work too; can't forget about that. Still, I hope to get some more play time in soon. We'll see if there is any DLC that really catches my eye though.
 
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If all 30 dummy slots get filled, I certainly hope Tails, Knuckles, and Shadow make the cut.
 

Scamper52596

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Too bad really. I'd much rather have additional Sonic characters before either of the other SEGA characters we got, but I understand that adding new franchises into Smash is preferable for the developers. Especially for DLC. At least the Mii Fighter costumes are back, even if I have to pay for them again. XD
 

kaithehedgefox

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Too bad really. I'd much rather have additional Sonic characters before either of the other SEGA characters we got, but I understand that adding new franchises into Smash is preferable for the developers. Especially for DLC. At least the Mii Fighter costumes are back, even if I have to pay for them again. XD
As for Tails being playable, it could still happen but is very unlikely. I don't see Tails being in Fighter Pass 1.
Thank god! mii costumes don't deconfirm playable characters. Nor do non-fighter spirits, (since Pikachu has a support spirit that isn't an alternate skin/costume). So I can't doubt that Tails will be coming to Smash Ultimate if there's more than 6 DLC playable characters. (But I will never doubt he will be in Smash 6). In fact, he seems to be the best choice for a 2nd Sonic rep. But, I also want Shadow and Knuckles to be playable in Smash 6. I also think that Tails would be a pseudo-clone of Sonic.

Also, not to mention, as I've already aforementioned. In my opinion the treatment for Ryu's and Simon's 2nd reps seem to be unfair. Tails is more iconic then Richter and Ken. And I'm wondering, Aside from being echoes which makes them easier to assemble, why do Richter and Ken get this special treatment instead of Tails? Cause Richter and Ken and both iconic secondary superstars, but both aren't as iconic as Tails. So why can/should we have them, but not/without Tails?

If all 30 dummy slots get filled, I certainly hope Tails, Knuckles, and Shadow make the cut.
Unfortunately, Knuckles and Shadow are already assist trophies, so we just have to wait till Smash 6 for both of them to be playable.
 
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SonicMario

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I've mentioned that, and although you're correct, is there any other reason why they get this special treatment?, (without Tails).
I think we do have to account that Sakurai was a Castlevania and Street Fighter fan in his youth and that he might not be as much into Sonic. I doubt Sakurai hates the franchise but it wouldn't be a stretch that when they included echo fighters he more gleefully communicated to Konami and Capcom that he'd like another Belmont and the original echo fighter from a series he used to play competitively back in the day. Then go to Sega for another Sonic character that he definitely understand's Sonic legacy but maybe himself isn't as much into the series as others. If Sakurai had been a Sonic fan, I think we'd definitely have at least Tails and Shadow or at least just Shadow as an echo.

Also I flip-flopped alot on this during the speculation period. But even in the case that Tails is an echo you have to go a little further then Ken (Which is the most different of the echoes) does to fully make him work. Because if you're playing as Tails in Smash Bros. you want to be able to use his flight ability to recover. And that alone should make Tails more different to play then Sonic. As Tails would be easier to recover, thus he must be balanced by likely being a tad slower then Sonic (But probably still the 2nd fastest character) and attacks not as strong. And that doesn't sound that's fitting of an echo even if the recovery is literally the only thing different.
 

volbound1700

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We should send in a petition to ask Nintendo\Smash team to at least fix his Mix costume (and perhaps Knuckles as well although that one isn't as bad). It wouldn't take a lot of effort on their part.

As an FYI, in the last Fighter Pass, I sent a message. I wasn't a big fan of Joker being added so I didn't buy any of the Persona costumes but bought both Knuckles and Tails.
 
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fogbadge

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We should send in a petition to ask Nintendo\Smash team to at least fix his Mix costume (and perhaps Knuckles as well although that one isn't as bad). It wouldn't take a lot of effort on their part.

As an FYI, in the last Fighter Pass, I sent a message. I wasn't a big fan of Joker being added so I didn't buy any of the Persona costumes but bought both Knuckles and Tails.
its not really sending a message, they have no way of knowing youre not buying them in protest
 

kaithehedgefox

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We should send in a petition to ask Nintendo\Smash team to at least fix his Mix costume (and perhaps Knuckles as well although that one isn't as bad). It wouldn't take a lot of effort on their part.

As an FYI, in the last Fighter Pass, I sent a message. I wasn't a big fan of Joker being added so I didn't buy any of the Persona costumes but bought both Knuckles and Tails.
Then we could/should also send a petition to add Tails as a DLC after the first fighters pass if there's more than one.
 

fogbadge

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Less sales indicates that they weren't popular. Still it isn't a big deal. Better to get Joker than nothing at all.
well thatd depend on the over all sales i guess, and yeah better than nothing at all, there are a couple of characters who id say nothing would have been better but joker aint one of them
 

Yoshi_smash

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I've been waiting for a 2nd fighter from the Sonic franchise since Brawl (2008), and it is now 2019 and Sonic is still the only playable fighter from his franchise. Tails is the character I most want in Smash from that franchise.

If Tails doesn't make it in as a DLC, then then next opportunity would be when Smash 6 (possibly "Smash Bros Ultimate Deluxe") comes out.
 
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kaithehedgefox

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I've been waiting for a 2nd fighter from the Sonic franchise since Brawl (2008), and it is now 2019 and Sonic is still the only playable fighter from his franchise. Tails is the character I most want in Smash from that franchise.

If Tails doesn't make it in as a DLC, then then next opportunity would be when Smash 6 (possibly "Smash Bros Ultimate Deluxe") comes out.
Hmm.. There seems to be a pattern here. So Peach was first playable in Melee, but Daisy (who was a 2nd Peach rep) had to wait till Ultimate to be playable. And Ultimate is 3 generations after Melee. So I think it makes sense to wait till Smash 6 for Tails (Who would be a 2nd Sonic rep), since Sonic was first playable in Brawl, and Smash 6 is 3 generations after Brawl. This also explains why Waluigi is still an assist trophy in Ultimate, since Wario was first playable in Brawl. And adding Waluigi as a second Wario rep in Ultimate instead of Smash 6 wouldn't fit the 3 generations later pattern.
 

fogbadge

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Hmm.. There seems to be a pattern here. So Peach was first playable in Melee, but Daisy (who was a 2nd Peach rep) had to wait till Ultimate to be playable. And Ultimate is 3 generations after Melee. So I think it makes sense to wait till Smash 6 for Tails (Who would be a 2nd Sonic rep), since Sonic was first playable in Brawl, and Smash 6 is 3 generations after Brawl. This also explains why Waluigi is still an assist trophy in Ultimate, since Wario was first playable in Brawl. And adding Waluigi as a second Wario rep in Ultimate instead of Smash 6 wouldn't fit the 3 generations later pattern.
by that logic dr mario wouldnt have got in until smash 4, same with young link
 

SonicMario

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Hmm.. There seems to be a pattern here. So Peach was first playable in Melee, but Daisy (who was a 2nd Peach rep) had to wait till Ultimate to be playable. And Ultimate is 3 generations after Melee. So I think it makes sense to wait till Smash 6 for Tails (Who would be a 2nd Sonic rep), since Sonic was first playable in Brawl, and Smash 6 is 3 generations after Brawl. This also explains why Waluigi is still an assist trophy in Ultimate, since Wario was first playable in Brawl. And adding Waluigi as a second Wario rep in Ultimate instead of Smash 6 wouldn't fit the 3 generations later pattern.
We can't apply this kind of logic at all times. There isn't some magic number of "Oh it's been 3 games, time to give such-and-such character another rep" There hasn't been another F-Zero rep besides Captain Falcon for example. And Starfox at least temporarily lost a character in Smash 4 before going back to 3 but still not gaining any more then they had in Brawl.

We also have to factor in that Sonic is not a Nintendo property like these franchises. If Sonic were a Nintendo series they'd almost certainly have a playable Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and probably an echo Shadow and maybe Eggman and Amy. But Sonic is not a Nintendo character as much as how he's been one of the more recurring 3rd party series on Nintendo systems over the years. For all we know, the reason Sonic is still alone could be a request by Sega which might also play into how Sega let Bayonetta and Joker happen before another Sonic character. Most Sonic fans already are already going to buy Smash for Sonic, however there might be Bayonetta/Platinum Games or Persona/ATLUS fans that might buy Smash for those characters. It also allows Sega more trust within those companies that they help publish that they allow a massive boon like letting a character of there's in Smash.
 

kaithehedgefox

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Less sales indicates that they weren't popular. Still it isn't a big deal. Better to get Joker than nothing at all.
Hero (Dragon Quest) has been revealed along with Banjo (Banjo Kazooie) at E3 2019. There are only two more fighters to go
Then we could/should also send a petition to add Tails as a DLC after the first fighters pass if there's more than one.
If there isn't going to be another fighters pass, we could just commission/petition Nintendo to cancel the final DLC for the fighter's pass unless Tails is included.
 

SonicMario

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If there isn't going to be another fighters pass, we could just commission/petition Nintendo to cancel the final DLC for the fighter's pass unless Tails is included.
Uh, dude. No. That's not appropriate behavior under any circumstances. I'd love Tails to be in Smash. But, there are much bigger fish in the sea of possible Smash inclusions then Tails and we've got to accept that. It was deemed nearly impossible for Banjo to get in Smash since 2001. This is a much bigger deal in the grand scheme of things.

While it is a bit of a shame that Tails, just when he felt like a possibility what with all the 3rd parties coming in. He still doesn't make it (Nor does any other Sonic character either). But we're far from the only ones. And would only make people hate us if we did this.
 

volbound1700

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I can live with Tails being a Mii costume if we are able to get other great characters that people want like Banjo-Kazooie and Hero.

I just want them to fix the costume! LOL. Would love him as a character too but I don't see it happening.
 

kaithehedgefox

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Uh, dude. No. That's not appropriate behavior under any circumstances. I'd love Tails to be in Smash. But, there are much bigger fish in the sea of possible Smash inclusions then Tails and we've got to accept that. It was deemed nearly impossible for Banjo to get in Smash since 2001. This is a much bigger deal in the grand scheme of things.

While it is a bit of a shame that Tails, just when he felt like a possibility what with all the 3rd parties coming in. He still doesn't make it (Nor does any other Sonic character either). But we're far from the only ones. And would only make people hate us if we did this.
This is just straight up disrespectful not only to Sakurai and the Dev team but also to the fans who purchased the pass. It's not that deep.
Thanks for warning me. I understand why my petition wouldn't be a good choice. It would be better to just make a playable Tails mod since it's better than nothing.
 

CboyC95

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I'd support this. Tails has been my second favorite Sonic character behind Amy, and it would make more sense if Tails has his own unique moveset.
 
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kaithehedgefox

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How unique? Because it also makes sense for him to have some cloned moves as well.
Tails's only similar moves would be his neutral special, side special, down special, and final smash. Almost the rest of his moveset would be unique. So Tails would be a pseudo-clone whereas Shadow would be a clone or semi-clone.
 
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kaithehedgefox

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I can live with Tails being a Mii costume if we are able to get other great characters that people want like Banjo-Kazooie and Hero.

I just want them to fix the costume! LOL. Would love him as a character too but I don't see it happening.
I good idea would be to make a Battle Stadium K.M.S (Kai Mario Sonic) super smash bros game.
 
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kaithehedgefox

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I'm just thinking about a fan-concept.

I think we do have to account that Sakurai was a Castlevania and Street Fighter fan in his youth and that he might not be as much into Sonic. I doubt Sakurai hates the franchise but it wouldn't be a stretch that when they included echo fighters he more gleefully communicated to Konami and Capcom that he'd like another Belmont and the original echo fighter from a series he used to play competitively back in the day. Then go to Sega for another Sonic character that he definitely understand's Sonic legacy but maybe himself isn't as much into the series as others. If Sakurai had been a Sonic fan, I think we'd definitely have at least Tails and Shadow or at least just Shadow as an echo.
I understand. However, although Sakurai's opinions seem justified, I will take that as an excuse. Cause as I've aforementioned, I think having another less iconic non-1st rep without Tails is not particulary good idea.
 
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