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I think Sakurai directly lied about this game's characters being remade from scratch.

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DrizzyDrew

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idk he lied, maybe he and his team just believe that for example Ganon's moves are better suited when its similar to falcons. I know we all want a different moveset and its frustrating, but we have yet to see his changes. We see small changes for character we know, but they make big differences like Links new meteor smash. Just wait and see, Sakuari and his team are working hard so we gotta appreciate whatever they give us.
 

PCHU

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idk he lied, maybe he and his team just believe that for example Ganon's moves are better suited when its similar to falcons. I know we all want a different moveset and its frustrating, but we have yet to see his changes. We see small changes for character we know, but they make big differences like Links new meteor smash. Just wait and see, Sakuari and his team are working hard so we gotta appreciate whatever they give us.
The problem that I had with Brawl Ganondorf was that although he had power and his attacks weren't too slow, but he lacked range.
Not to mention his fair had an awkward start time, so half the time I'd end up landing with the move sans hitbox (leaving me open for way too long), and all but one of his throws were relatively useless.
I loved him, don't get me wrong; I've always enjoyed Ganondorf, but after playing Project M Ganon and even some of Melee's Ganon, it kinda pains me to see him staying in the same boat he's been in.

As far as Wario goes, I definitely would like to see some more Wario Land representation as opposed to this "trademark waft" personality Sakurai's working from, but judging by his trophy, I'm not seeing any signs of hope.

I would honestly love nothing more than to be proven wrong.
 
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JV5Chris

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I really couldn't care less if Ganondorf is a swordsman or not. Back in Oot he was far too busy being an all power warlock instead anyways.

The initial move similarities wouldn't bother me either if it wasn't for him looking more like Brawl's dopey Ganondorf. Pains me a little to say this as a Ganondorf main in Melee, but it might be time for a Bowser style re-imaging.
 
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pizzapie7

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That's not what he meant, as others have said OP.

Aside from that, why would he change "Falcondorf" in the first place, when that's a moveset people have come to love. If I played Ganondorf, I wouldn't want him heavily changed for the sake of it. I'm glad there's some consistency.
 

Narpas_sword

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I really could care less if Ganondorf is a swordsman or not. Back in Oot he was far too busy being an all power warlock instead anyways.

The initial move similarities wouldn't bother me either if it wasn't for him looking more like Brawl's dopey Ganondorf. Pains me a little to say this as a Ganondorf main in Melee, but it might be time for a Bowser style re-imaging.
Couldn't*


Anyway, I've always like the idea of tradition smash Ganon's moves getting being transferred to Black Shadow. then getting Ganon reinvented.

But that's more likely for PM, not smash 4.

Besides, hardly anyone fights 'like they would in their own game'
 
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Anyway, I've always like the idea of tradition smash Ganon's moves getting being transferred to Black Shadow. then getting Ganon reinvented.

But that's more likely for PM, not smash 4.

Besides, hardly anyone fights 'like they would in their own game'
It isn't really likely for PM as the PM team has stated explicitly they won't use characters not from the official series of games in an effort to not be a "competing" game.
 
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Narpas_sword

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Can you explain that further with links?

It seems to contradict information that i believe. I would like to understand what you mean.

however it is, its still MORE likely in PM than Smash 4. even if it's not likely for PM
 
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D

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Can you explain that further with links?

It seems to contradict information that i believe. I would like to understand what you mean.

however it is, its still MORE likely in PM than Smash 4. even if it's not likely for PM
Well it's more likely in that it is possible but that doesn't make it "likely" in the sense of the actual word.

I don't have a source I can pull immediately, it would involve crazy redditt digging but the developers (Warchamp7 specifically) have stated that they refuse to add any characters not in Smash 4, as an effort to not be seen as competition to the real series, and to avoid the possibility of Nintendo making a case against them via C&D.
 

Narpas_sword

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see, that's the opposite from what i've heard.

I think it's that they're not adding any characters from smash 4.
and that any characters they do add have to exist in brawl somehow (Black shadow is a trophy)
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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I find it so funny how everyone hates Falcondorf, considering he has that damn Triforce of Power and is basically even more brutal version of memetic Captain. (And everyone finds Falcon already too badass...)
It is definitely fitting that he'll use his fists instead of relying on magic (Zelda's thing) or swords (Link's thing). At least in Smash.

Hell, if we never had Dorf being based of Falcon, we wouldn't have had Dorf at all since...ever.

On Smash-characters being same, it runs about here and there. Some characters got reworked, after all. I guess Dorf got overlooked, but what can you do.
The main problem that people are having with Ganondorf being a Captain Falcon clone does have to do with the fact that he's literally the worst fighter in Brawl. He doesn't have a single good matchup in the competitive world.
 

Phaazoid

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I'm sorry but I find it impossible that someone could recreate Mario's idle animation from Brawl FRAME BY FRAME from scratch.
Then there's obviously some part of programming and or 3D modelling that you just don't understand. Because I find it quite easy to believe someone do that, especially if they were the same person to do it the first time.
 

StarLight42

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Then there's obviously some part of programming and or 3D modelling that you just don't understand. Because I find it quite easy to believe someone do that, especially if they were the same person to do it the first time.
I'd like you to explain why Mario's idle animation was altered from 64 to Melee and Melee to Brawl yet this game they just kept the exact same animation from Brawl.

I know this seems a bit silly but it's the only way I can get my point across. I don't even mind that Sakurai kept the Brawl animations, I just wish he'd be honest with the fact that obviously not every character was made from scratch. A character that seems like he was made from scratch in this game is Bowser.
 
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Xermo

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I'd like you to explain why Mario's idle animation was altered from 64 to Melee and Melee to Brawl yet this game they just kept the exact same animation from Brawl.
64: "Rough Draft" of sorts. Works for what it needs to convey.
64 to Melee: Fixing an animation not suited for better models. A general improvement or upgrade.
Melee to Brawl: Breathing more life into an already definite idle animation.
Brawl to Smash4: Lol the animation is already perfect, where could we go from here.

There's your explanation.
 

Phaazoid

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I'd like you to explain why Mario's idle animation was altered from 64 to Melee and Melee to Brawl yet this game they just kept the exact same animation from Brawl.
Because in 64 they were working with polygons the size of bricks, and now they have really tiny ones that you can't see. Given more breathing room, they changed fighters around. This time around, they made 3 times as many special moves for each fighter, and had to balance each fighter with the new ledge mechanics, movement mechanics, lack of gliding, and many other changes. Even if you are trying to create the exact same character, when the engine changes as much as this one did, you have to start from scratch. An idle animation means nothing.

I understand that you're disappointed that Ganondorf didn't get a moveset true to his games. I am too. But if that didn't happen from melee to Brawl when things like the FLUDD did, then I didn't expect it to happen this time around either.

Plus, we still have only seen Ganondorf's up special. Who knows what his other specials are, and customizations.
 
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LunchPolice

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Guys, maybe we should stop bashing the OP?
The animations can most likely be ported from game to game. In fact, I'm pretty sure I can provide evidence. During the E3 Developer Directs we can see Link with his Brawl idle animation in which he spins the sword around. By the time of the more recent Smash Direct we see Link's idle has changed; he poses with his sword but the shield stays level. It's very likely the animations are ported over and tweaked over time.

However it's probably a lot more complicated to port the codes that actually make up these characters. After all they're on a new system with new physics and everything... it's a new game. I feel like this is probably the part that needs to be remade from the ground up which is a lot of work (and most likely what Sakurai was talking about).

It's also worth mentioning that balancing fighting game characters is a lot of work. You can't just throw in a new move for the sake of being different, you have to consider how it alters their style and strengths and weaknesses.

I think Ganondorf just drew the short straw. I imagine Donkey Kong and Bowser received much more attention because they're more important Nintendo characters and they've also like never been good in any Smash game. Clearly they needed tweaking so they lucked out among the heavyweights. Factor in the amount of new characters and switched-up veterans (namely Zelda, Sheik, Charizard... etc) Ganondorf got unlucky. He's not a fundamentally flawed moveset gameplay-wise and making him accurate to the LoZ franchise probably would have cost development time they didn't have.

But IDK. I don't make games or anything
 

StarLight42

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64: "Rough Draft" of sorts. Works for what it needs to convey.
64 to Melee: Fixing an animation not suited for better models. A general improvement or upgrade.
Melee to Brawl: Breathing more life into an already definite idle animation.
Brawl to Smash4: Lol the animation is already perfect, where could we go from here.

There's your explanation.
So you are saying Yoshi's animation in Brawl was perfect too?

Yet....that was changed.

Yoshi was clearly not ported from Brawl.

Mario was, and then edited slightly.

I'm sorry but I don't buy your "explanation".

Guys, maybe we should stop bashing the OP?
The animations can most likely be ported from game to game.
Thanks! I don't mind if Sakurai works on characters by porting them from the previous game and then making changes, but he clearly said he did not, and I feel like he outright lied, that doesn't make me feel very good, whether this is a very small nitpick or not.
 
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Xermo

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So you are saying Yoshi's animation in Brawl was perfect too?

Yet....that was changed.

Yoshi was clearly not ported from Brawl.

Mario was, and then edited slightly.

I'm sorry but I don't buy your "explanation".
I never mentioned yoshi in any way, so I don't see why you're bringing him up. We're talking mario, get the facts straight.
Sakurai himself stated they intentionally made yoshi stand upright like in more recent Yoshi Island games, so why are you ******** exactly? Last I checked, Mario already stood upright in all his games. What the **** were they going to do differently?
 
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Texas Toast

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Off topic, but holy cow does Lucina/Marth's grab range look terrible. Pichu's got some competition.

She couldn't grab Shulk because Team Attack was off; Not due to poor grab range.
 

Texas Toast

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Read the rest of page one.
Aye, you're right. My mistake.

Saw your post and just hit the reply button, so it just took me to my reply when I was finished. Sorry, I'm not too familiar with the posting mechanics here yet.

Forgive me. Cheers.
 
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StarLight42

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I never mentioned yoshi in any way, so I don't see why you're bringing him up. We're talking mario, get the facts straight.
Sakurai himself stated they intentionally made yoshi stand upright like in more recent Yoshi Island games, so why are you *****ing exactly? Last I checked, Mario already stood upright in all his games. What the **** were they going to do differently?
In more recent Yoshi's Island games? Yeah, because Yoshi totally stands upright in Yoshi's New Island.

What the were they going to do differently? Umm, a different animation? Mario's idle was different in all three games prior, so I see no reason to suddenly "stop", unless they are using assets from Brawl. It can be different without drawing inspiration from anything, like Mario's change in idle animation from Melee to Brawl.

Also saying "****" multiple times doesn't make your point any clearer, settle down, please.
 
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Xermo

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In more recent Yoshi's Island games? Yeah, because Yoshi totally stands upright in Yoshi's New Island.

What the were they going to do differently? Umm, a different animation? Mario's idle was different in all three games prior, so I see no reason to suddenly "stop", unless they are using assets from Brawl. It can be different without drawing inspiration from anything, like Mario's change in idle animation from Melee to Brawl.

Also saying "****" multiple times doesn't make your point any clearer, settle down, please.
To rectify my mistake: "We've updated the character to be in line with more recent models" aka Yoshi's appearances in 3/4 of the mario games where he's standing up.
And brah, smash was in development way before YNI. The decision to have yoshi upright would've more than likely been made then, just as how YNI decided to emulate the SNES game when it began its development. Not to mention the most "recent" YI game out when smash4 was conceived would still be YI:DS, in which Yoshi is upright.

Mario's idle animation was literally the same for all games, with improvements as entries came. The only "change" came from how severe and fluid his movements were. Brawl's was a definitive animation; perfect for the character.

You're the one who's agitated, not me. There's a clear difference between ***** and ****, btw.
 
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MasterRyan1595

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Eh, I'll be disappointed if Ganondorf is just the Captain Falcon clone again, but I wouldn't call what he said lying. He just meant that he was overhauling the way the game felt from the ground up while building on previous installments. No harm in that.
 
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In more recent Yoshi's Island games? Yeah, because Yoshi totally stands upright in Yoshi's New Island.

What the were they going to do differently? Umm, a different animation? Mario's idle was different in all three games prior, so I see no reason to suddenly "stop", unless they are using assets from Brawl. It can be different without drawing inspiration from anything, like Mario's change in idle animation from Melee to Brawl.

Also saying "****" multiple times doesn't make your point any clearer, settle down, please.
Pretty sure you made the first irrational accusation, targeting the developing director personally.

Maybe you should settle down...
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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The one change I'd like with Falcondorf is adding his Dead Man's Volley. I don't mind the rest, since his attacks are powered by magic anyway. He fits his personal beautifully. I do hope he's a lot better than he was in Brawl, though.

Anyway, yeah, the "almost" bit really does severely matter. I don't think he lied. But even if he did? So what. He also changed his plans on Lucina. People cite that constantly that he'd never put Villager in a Smash game. See what I'm getting at here?

I can understand the criticisms among the design choices for Smash 4 relating to this, but not calling him a liar like it matters. Do you find it a problem he remade them in the same style? I can agree, honestly. To a degree and it depends who.
 
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EdreesesPieces

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So if you are going to re-create the exact same move set frame to frame isn't it a waste of time to start from scratch? It's like plagiarizing someone's paper and claiming its a unique piece of work because instead of copying and pasting you re typed it word for word.

In the end it doesn't matter how the character is made. The exact same character is the exact same character. No value in being made from scratch if the end result is a carbon copy.
 
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Ryuutakeshi

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So if you are going to re-create the exact same move set frame to frame isn't it a waste of time to start from scratch? It's like plagiarizing someone's paper and claiming its a unique piece of work because instead of copying and pasting you re typed it word for word.

In the end it doesn't matter how the character is made. The exact same character is the exact same character. No value in being made from scratch if the end result is a carbon copy.
How do you plagiarize yourself? This isn't someone else's research paper. This is a sequel to a game to a game to a game, all directed by the same guy.
 

LIQUID12A

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First off, who cares? It's Sakurai's design. And a lot of the characters we've seen in action do look substantially revamped, if not from scratch.

Secondly, Bowser. Just Bowser.

Third: Thread is going nowhere.

And fourth:

So that means ol' Falcondorf here got an entirely new moveset? No. He didn't, he's still Falcondorf after all.
You're making a bogus affirmation based on a 4 second gif. How about waiting until the game releases and we get I for from our Eastern friends instead of making a rather baseless argument about it and backfiring?
 
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RedFly

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Sakurai lies a lot.
He said we would get a small roster, Yet it's the biggest roster yet.
He said Namco gets no special treatment, Yet Namco gets a character and an item along with a lot of their IPs apart of his taunt.
He said Roster was decided from the beginning, Yet he also said Lucina was an alternate costume but was changed to her own character.
He said he didn't want to have more than 2 third parties for the sake of "Not forgetting what Smash is all about.", Yet we get 3.
 
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CraigUK37

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I don't care that Ganondorf's move-set is the same. A few tweaks here and there is about as much as we have seen any character change from one game to the next. If he got changed, there would be people who out there who would complain about that. People will complain about anything, you cannot please everyone.

Best case scenario - Custom moves give you all the Ganondorf you want. Sword attack, dead man's volly or whatever else. I am kind of holding out for custom moves to separate the clones drasticly enough that people don't see them as clones anymore. If Falcon and Ganondorf's custom moves are identical, then I will be annoyed.
 

SS-bros14

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1. He said ALMOST from scratch.
2. Ganondorf is Sakurai's main in Brawl, so Sakurai probably didn't want to change him.
3. Who said he couldn't just remake some of the same stuff?
4. The mods will probably lock this. :p
5. Last time I checked, you didn't measure everything frame by frame seeing it's EXACTLY the same anyway.
 
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Thinkaman

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Two things:

Animations are based off of what is called keyframes. To rebuild an identical animation, only the few motions of each keyframe have to be the same.

Second, mascot characters like Mario have a rigid official spec defining how they should look, appear, and move. This normally defines a standardized 3D model, animations, poses, and color scheme. It is not unusual for a character like Mario to appear and behave identically across multiple games in even different series.

Note how Mario's official render pose in Smash 4 is actually a modification of his spec pose for Super Mario Sunshine. This is normal.
 

StarLight42

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Pretty sure you made the first irrational accusation, targeting the developing director personally.

Maybe you should settle down...
I'm completely calm. Just irritated that the developer lied, some people aren't so affected because their characters were changed significantly. Well, my main, Mario, still has the same animations, the same attacks, even the same final smash and FLUDD. It's a little frusterating, to say the least, considering Mario was so poor in Brawl that I switched to Toon Link.

I also feel bad for Zelda fans who wanted Ganondorf to finally have a unique moveset from Falcon.
 
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SS-bros14

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I'm completely calm. Just irritated that the developer lied, some people aren't so affected because their characters were changed significantly. Well, my main, Mario, still has the same animations, the same attacks, even the same final smash and FLUDD. It's a little frusterating, to say the least, considering Mario was so poor in Brawl that I switched to Toon Link.

I also feel bad for Zelda fans who wanted Ganondorf to finally have a unique moveset from Falcon.
Dude, he didn't lie. You have no official proof of that. Also, he said ALMOST from scratch.
 

StarLight42

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Dude, he didn't lie. You have no official proof of that. Also, he said ALMOST from scratch.
There's also no official proof he didn't lie, and look, he didn't on some characters, Bowser, Pit, etc. However, I don't think "almost" means leaving a few characters untouched aside from a few speed buffs.
 

SS-bros14

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There's also no official proof he didn't lie, and look, he didn't on some characters, Bowser, Pit, etc. However, I don't think "almost" means leaving a few characters untouched aside from a few speed buffs.
When he said 'almost' he probably meant he took some animations from Brawl.
 

EdreesesPieces

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How do you plagiarize yourself? This isn't someone else's research paper. This is a sequel to a game to a game to a game, all directed by the same guy.
Uh easily. If you submit one paper two years ago, and are asked to submit a new one, if you re typed your old paper you have not created anything new and have just re used your old work. Weather you re created your old paper by re typing it up or copy and pasting the end result is that it's the exact same thing.
 
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