I don't understand PMBR

[leelue]

To be clear, at this point you understand that the shine change doesn't affect your ability to shine marth&co out of up bs, correct?



Anyway, it might be helpful to think of it more like the initial change to Cfalc's side b.
Cfalc's side b was changed not so much because he needed an extra recovery move, it was changed because the move just sort of "clearly" looks like it should grab the ledge at the end. In melee it didn't for some reason. The fact that Cfalc's recovery isn't so good certainly helped make that realization a reality, but that's not the point.

This change to reflectors is somewhat like one of those things. The move doesn't make a lot of sense to have that property in the first place.
Let's say Fox was a brawl newcomer and didn't have invincibility.Now we were bringing him up to melee speed. If fox didn't have invincibility in brawl, and we gave him that in P:M, people would be very confused. It's that kind of "blank slate" thinking that we should feel ok to employ in doses from time to time.
So if you want, think of it less of a balance motivated change and more of a "logic" motivated change.

--

This is the sort of thing that confuses a lot of people. But look
When ROBs back air lost ~10 frames of hitbox duration, some people were confused about that too. "ROB isn't top tier. Why get rid of a couple frames of hitbox duration? It's a nerf that nobody wanted and it doesn't even affect much so why change it?" The response I gave to that, before I became PMBR, is part of the general sentiment I am trying to give you here: Just because something *was* already a certain way doesn't make it the best way to have done it. There's nothing wrong with backtracking a little to make a minor alteration so things make a little more sense in the big picture.

 

[KayB]

You have to be a pretty bad Fox player if you can't win without shine invincibility.

 

[DMG]

I was hoping more people would read my post and get it!

 

[teluoborg]

I waited for 2.6b instead of 2.6 to come out tried it and noticed the difference and switched to 2.5 Fox. I'm still going to play 2.6 just not 2.6 Fox. Mario is my main anyways and he got buffed so I'm not being close minded.

Welp so you're never gonna play Fox against anyone but bots ? What a cool way to handle things.

 

[ELI-mination]

Viceversa96, the problem is that you're looking at things in terms of "nerfs and buffs", and not so much in terms of overall game design and things making sense. So the reason it seems bad to you is that all you see is "this character got nerfed" and you combine it with the idea "this character is already beatable", and therefore you jump to the conclusion that characters who are beatable deserve no changes that make them weaker in any aspect of their gameplay.
2.1 Ike was quite beatable by the way. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

 

[Alex Night]

By the way, who ever brought up the idea that these characters are untouchable?

Idk but I definitely do not think either are untouchable. So why nerf something if it isn't a "big deal"? That's the only thing that confuses me.

I think he is speaking about how some people see that Fox's design in Melee is perfect and therefore any changes to Fox would be considered outragious. JCaesar himself said that no character in Project M is getting any kind of special treatment. That means if a character's design is detrimental or it doesn't fit to the overall design and balancing of Project M, then it is going to be changed for the better of the competitive play. That is probably why Eli made that post about how somebody made the idea of the spacies being untouchable.

 

[Vigilante]

I just want to point out that the 2.6 demo spacie changes are experiments. We want to see how this affects the game balance with hard data and assess the public reaction. I would propose that you keep giving us feedback in a constructive manner and keep playing the game so that you can help us gather said data. Whether they will stay or not is uncertain, as is anything.

Whether you are for, neutral, or against the experimental spacies, we want your honest feedback and your arguments. We also want to see how this affects your gameplay.

 

[Alex Night]

I just want to point out that the 2.6 demo spacie changes are experiments. We want to see how this affects the game balance with hard data and assess the public reaction. I would propose that you keep giving us feedback in a constructive manner and keep playing the game so that you can help us gather said data. Whether they will stay or not is uncertain, as is anything.

Whether you are for, neutral, or against the experimental spacies, we want your honest feedback and your arguments. We also want to see how this affects your gameplay.

From what I can see, I have never noticed his invincibility on his Shine for Melee or even Project M. As such, I do not feel affected in terms of gameplay when I play with Fox. He still is a very technical character and he still plays the same way unlike a few characters who have changed during the entire development of Project M like Ike, Lucario, and recently Sonic. So, this change on Fox is just fine along with his other changes.

 

[Vigilante]

I was speaking to everyone in general, but thanks for the feedback, it's concise, informative, tells us what we need to know about your opinion. Thats what we need from everyone, so all of you, keep providing your feedback

 

[Viceversa96]

Welp so you're never gonna play Fox against anyone but bots ? What a cool way to handle things.

No

 

[Viceversa96]

Viceversa96, the problem is that you're looking at things in terms of "nerfs and buffs", and not so much in terms of overall game design and things making sense. So the reason it seems bad to you is that all you see is "this character got nerfed" and you combine it with the idea "this character is already beatable", and therefore you jump to the conclusion that characters who are beatable deserve no changes that make them weaker in any aspect of their gameplay.
2.1 Ike was quite beatable by the way. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

I agree about 2.1 Ike also. Not many people knew the matchup so people thought he was broken which is bull. I'm not sure about 2.5 Sonic though. Hbox did a pretty good job at Zenith against him.

 

[ELI-mination]

I agree about 2.1 Ike also. Not many people knew the matchup so people thought he was broken which is bull. I'm not sure about 2.5 Sonic though. Hbox did a pretty good job at Zenith against him.

Okay, so lets just assume that you agree 2.1 Ike is beatable (which I do, too)
Do you thereby think his design was well made? Or that the refinements to Ike in 2.6 are a more well put-together represenation of his character, or that he should have never been touched once he was in his 2.1 iteration simply because he was beatable?
Do you see the point I'm trying to make here?

 

[Viceversa96]

Okay, so lets just assume that you agree 2.1 Ike is beatable (which I do, too)
Do you thereby think his design was well made? Or that the refinements to Ike in 2.6 are a more well put-together represenation of his character, or that he should have never been touched once he was in his 2.1 iteration simply because he was beatable?
Do you see the point I'm trying to make here?

I only like the new tipper system they gave him that is it. I'm really worried about the balance in this game. It's hard as ****. I think it's impossible actually.

 

[Nemiak temp]

ELI wins all arguments. Give up haha. The games pretty balanced dude, there are very few hard counters to anyone. Side note: Meta Knight da bess

 

[Viceversa96]

ELI wins all arguments. Give up haha. The games pretty balanced dude, there are very few hard counters to anyone. Side note: Meta Knight da bess

?

 

[Nemiak temp]

! .

 

[Kink-Link5]

I still disagree with Ike's Side B changes and feel like the part of it that was nerfed vs the part that stayed the same was a poor choice.

 

[ELI-mination]

 

[Nemiak temp]

I think rather that the point just hit our head a little too hard. Not that we miss it. It just hurts ya know?

 

[Viceversa96]

I was only responding to your comment. Geez

 

[The_NZA]

I was only responding to your comment. Geez

I'll help you out there, lil buddy.

You said Fox 1 frame shine invincibility shouldn't be removed because Fox is beatable.

Eli said:

Okay, so lets just assume that you agree 2.1 Ike is beatable (which I do, too)​

Do you thereby think his design was well made? Or that the refinements to Ike in 2.6 are a more well put-together represenation of his character, or that he should have never been touched once he was in his 2.1 iteration simply because he was beatable?​

The response Eli is looking for is a yes or a no:

Yes, Ike's design was good and shouldn't be changed because he was beatable in 2.1.

Or

No, just because Ike was beatable did not mean he was designed well. Being beatable and being designed well are separate traits, where you can both be beatable but not necessarily designed well.

In reality, you responded with:

I only like the new tipper system they gave him that is it. I'm really worried about the balance in this game. It's hard as ****. I think it's impossible actually.

What you posted would be defined as a non-sequitur. Wikipedia defines a non-sequitur in the following way:

In everyday speech, a non sequitur is a statement in which the final part is totally unrelated to the first part, for example

Life is life and fun is fun, but it's all so quiet when the goldfish die.​

—West with the Night, Beryl Markham[2]

You see how your response to his comment was more or less unrelated to what Eli asked?

 

[Viceversa96]

I'm just worried about this game at this point. I do think this game is a worthy competitor to Sm4sh.

 

[DMG]

Eli got to ask questions, so I have one for everyone:

Can you see why kids love the taste of Cinnamon Toast Crunch?

 

[ELI-mination]

Eli got to ask questions, so I have one for everyone:

Can you see why kids love the taste of Cinnamon Toast Crunch?

Its because of those cinnamon swirls.
Flavor you can see.

 

[Rat]

 

[NWRL]

Ultimately the change is a nerf but I don't think it's going to change the standing of Fox or Falco, they both have great movesets and 1 frame of invicibiltiy isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

 

[NightShadow6]

You could make fox's upsmash kill at 900% and he'd still be a dominating force.

**** he would still have shine which can kill at any% off stage, upthrow upair, bair, ****ing anything he wants to do. Its the culmination of all his traits that make him a beast.

 

[Alex Night]

You could make fox's upsmash kill at 900% and he'd still be a dominating force.

**** he would still have shine which can kill at any% off stage, upthrow upair, bair, ****ing anything he wants to do. Its the culmination of all his traits that make him a beast.

That and he only has two big weaknesses in his fast fall to set him up for combos as well as he can combo others and easy to intercept recovery.

 

[Archangel]

I'm just worried about this game at this point. I do think this game is a worthy competitor to Sm4sh.

how can we compete with wii fit trainer and potentially reggie? Simple, if the demo I saw at E3 is what the game as like. I'll be the first to state openly that I don't give a good goddamn about smash 4.

 

[Alex Night]

how can we compete with wii fit trainer and potentially reggie? Simple, if the demo I saw at E3 is what the game as like. I'll be the first to state openly that I don't give a good goddamn about smash 4.

But Garrus... I mean, Archangel... They have Mega Man.

 

[JOE!]

I was only responding to your comment. Geez

that was in response to Kink-Link I think.
[/Dr Seuss]

What Eli meant was pretty much this:

You are upset that a character, who you saw as beatable, had something "nerfed". Due to you seeing him as beatable, you found it odd for him being "lowered" in any way. However, being "beatable" you also see that the connotation of "beatable" implies that others see him as at the least "very good" to put up the counter of him being "beatable". I mean, nobody puts up Ganon as being "beatable" as we all know that everybody can beat Ganon, etc.

You even say "We know how he is in melee!", which also says to us that you acknowledge he is a great character. So this said, given the properties of the moves and the greatness of the character, what do these changes actually change?

1) Lasers do less from far away: Punishes fox for being "campy" a little when he has the ability to approach very easily. This essentially makes it so Fox doesn't have the advantages he normally would from such a distance, but still does the same job of forcing opponents to react in some manner when they are far away.

2) Reflector doesn't "seize" on multi-hits: This is a buff of sorts in that it stops something "dumb" from happening. It doesn't directly affect gameplay aside from some abusive situations so it's a more Quality of Life change. Essentially "Horizontal" design*

3) Reflector Loses Invulnerability on frame 1: Similar to point 1, this was a change made due to the move already being fantastic, to the point of it not *needing* the 1 frame invincibility, so that was removed. However, the overall purpose of the move is the same and all other properties in tact beyond using it for very specific scenarios.

Overall, Fox still *plays* the same, so what is the difference?


*Horizontal design refers to changing an option or such in a way that isn't a direct + or -. I can get into that more when I got a little time.

 

[Vashimus]

I do think Project M WILL impact sales for Smash 4 (that and you gotta get a Wii U). At least in my case, Cuz I don't give a damn about Smash 4 either. lol

 

[Comeback Kid]

In terms of spacie feedback the question asked should be, "Are these small changes enough to balance them to my satisfaction?"

Not, "Do these changes ruin everything I love and hold dear about them?"

One form of feedback is more valid than the other.

 

[Scythe]

I do think Project M WILL impact sales for Smash 4 (that and you gotta get a Wii U). At least in my case, Cuz I don't give a damn about Smash 4 either. lol

maaaan, the amount of people who even know about PM is just a drop in the bucket in the amount of people who will buy smash 4.

 

[DMG]

What's PM

Personal Massage plz give me

 

[leelue]

Obviously the problem with smash 4 isn't P:M, it's W:U

 

[DMG]

I agree, we must stop Wukong

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I agree, we must stop Wukong

The monkey king must not be allowed to have his staff back.

 

[SpiderMad]

But Garrus... I mean, Archangel... They have Mega Man.

This is exactly why P:M needs Cougar

 

[SmashBeatsALLFGC]

Put back Fox, Falco, and Wolf Shine INVINCIBILITY and lasers back to melee....Why was this made in the first place? If I SHINE and grab wins that should NOT ever work.... first off all... in any fighting game ANY ATTACK BEATS GRABS ALWAYS but in smash its the only one that this doesn't make sense, it's already bad that this is how this game is but if SHINE Doesn't' beat a grab then then whats the point of L- Canceling to a Shine or any attack if Grab is TOP TIER MOVE if timed correctly Grab Will ALWAYS WIN. Also if that's the case then give Fox his original lasers like in ssb64 aka Falco Lasers now for some dumb reason he has it. I wouldn't mind the 1% or worst the 0% the farther it gets but at least let it be used as an approach like Falco has it. Let me melee veterans as they were and if you want... just buff the people that need it.... But DON'T Nerf the original cast.... Hell just buff everyone. This is suppose to be melee game play with brawl people right?

For Fox, Falco, and Wolf Shine or Reflector here's a thought if he reflects the projectile he can wavedash out of reflecting the projectile kinda like waveshining a projectile and go on the offense so he is NOT stuck reflecting the projectile. Example if Mario uses fireball projectile and Fox Reflects it then he can wavedash as soon as he reflects the Fireball so he can keep the pressure going and attack back at Mario same thing goes with if Falco Short Hop Lasers ect.

Also let Wario Air shoulder bash longer like in the ground and also move at an angle upward and downward angle like exaggerate it more.. I know you can already move it up or down but its barely shown and it barely moves upward or downward at the angle it should be. So he can recover with it besides Up - B. Also let Shoulder Bash beat all projectiles ground or in the Shoulder Bash in the air since he has no projectiles so Wario can get in and NOT be projectile spammed. Great job on the Wario Bite and Forward tilts as the longer you hold it the stronger it gets which is good... I don't mind that you shorten the down smash range that's fine I suppose... I think you should make the down air NOT a hit or die tho or if he misses he is able to Up-B recover instantly so he doesn't die but that's just me....

Also Shorten Ivysaurs razor leaf length it is way to long it can cover final destination from end to end, that is way to long....


Now Mario Cape hit box should only cape from the front not from the bottom of the cape.... example: Fox tries to recover with Firefox angles from final destination to the edge and mario's cape should not make Fox turn around unless he hits the cape from the front of the cape... Not if Fox is still Firefox angles to the stage still.
Mario air Fireball recovery is way to fast. I've had a Level 9 and a Mario Main shoot 4 fireballs from the end of Final Destination to the other side which I was on I couldn't dodge them all I was so shocked at how many he can do before reaching me on the other side of Final D.


Also Mario should Not have the ability to wall jump from an Up- B. Only wall jump if you jump to the wall. If that is the case then everyone that has a Up- B recovery or who ever has that recovery should also Wall Jump out of Up- B.... example if I'm Fox and I FireFox to the side of a stage like a wall then Fox should then Wall Jump and FireFox again or same thing with Fox Illusion vice versa ... see that doesn't make sense does it? Well maybe the Fox Illusion, if you Fox Illusion to the wall and then wall jump then Fox Illusion again or maybe FireFox to the stage. whatever..

Next is Bowser with too much armor and the earthquake from like the Down- B and Down- Air .... REALLY WHATS WITH THE EARTHQUAKE? Any Multiple attack should stop any armor because it's a Multiple hit more than 1 hit which would stop the armor...

Like for Bowser's Down Smash or anyone with a multiple attack I think if you block a multiple hit attack that you should be able to just block the one hit with the shield and release the shield and counter afterwards because if you blocked it once you shouldn't have to block the rest of the hits and just be stuck blocking or maybe if you perfect shield it you can just block it once and be able to counter while the opponent is stuck still attacking the multiple hit. It's like a reward for timing the perfect shield and Rewarding for you to attack back and punish the opponent. Example if I perfect shield Zelda Neutral B or forward smash or Bowser Down Smash or Down Air just block it the first hit then counter attack while they are stuck in those multiple hit animations. There is more if you want me to give more suggestions. Fix in 3.0 or whenever the next update is...hell just make 2.6C