I don't understand PMBR

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I actually think the same thing for Sheik also. I didn't think the chain grab was that bad. They act like people walk straight into it which is not true.

We're going to disagree there. It doesn't matter if you walk into it or not, you can get grabbed and it can happen to you. Don't get grabbed is not a valid argument in favor of chain grabs and no chain grab should be able to take someone from one side of a stage to the other and end in guaranteed death. It's cheap and is just as bad as wobbling from 0 to death.

If it were okay for Sheik to pull this kind of crap, Dedede should get his idiot-proof chain grab back, Metaknight should be able to stall forever with his dimensional cape, and everything Bowser does should have Super Armor because otherwise he's clearly just a big target.

 

[Nemiak temp]

Sheiks grab wasn't horrible against most of the top tier characters but she could really DESTROY most of the lower tiered characters. If PM wanted any sort of balance it had to be removed or else they would all still be completely irrelevant because of Sheik. The change to shines don't change much in terms of balance. They're simply less stupid and less safe (barely, they're still safe as ****).

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Sheiks grab wasn't horrible against most of the top tier characters but she could really DESTROY most of the lower tiered characters. If PM wanted any sort of balance it had to be removed or else they would all still be completely irrelevant because of Sheik. The change to shines don't change much in terms of balance. They're simply less stupid and less safe (barely, they're still safe as ****).

Basically, my argument there is mostly "If Spacies are seemingly so untouchable, why shouldn't everyone be?"

 

[Viceversa96]

We're going to disagree there. It doesn't matter if you walk into it or not, you can get grabbed and it can happen to you. Don't get grabbed is not a valid argument in favor of chain grabs and no chain grab should be able to take someone from one side of a stage to the other and end in guaranteed death. It's cheap and is just as bad as wobbling from 0 to death.

If it were okay for Sheik to pull this kind of crap, Dedede should get his idiot-proof chain grab back, Metaknight should be able to stall forever with his dimensional cape, and everything Bowser does should have Super Armor because otherwise he's clearly just a big target.

Idk about that. Again it's not like Sheik is unbeatable either. Did they nerf anything else from Sheik or is that it? I can get over that.

 

[Nemiak temp]

Basically, my argument there is mostly "If Spacies are seemingly so untouchable, why shouldn't everyone be?"

I get what you mean but all Sheik had to do against half the cast was grab. At least the spacies still have to press other buttons than Z and Down

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Idk about that. Again it's not like Sheik is unbeatable either. Did they nerf anything else from Sheik or is that it? I can get over that.

Did they nerf anything from Spacies except for the invincibility?

 

[Viceversa96]

Did they nerf anything from Spacies except for the invincibility?.

Not sure..Hold up what does this mean?

-Down B can be released during the reflect lag to go into the end animation afterwards, preventing rapid hitting projectiles like Fox's standing laser that can re-hit before the reflect lag ends from being able to trap him in it

 

[Kink-Link5]

Lasers now degrade in damage over distance.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Not sure..Hold up what does this mean?

-Down B can be released during the reflect lag to go into the end animation afterwards, preventing rapid hitting projectiles like Fox's standing laser that can re-hit before the reflect lag ends from being able to trap him in it

That's a good thing, not a nerf.

Lasers now degrade in damage over distance.

Eh, for Fox, It doesn't seem like much of a nerf considering he can spam lasers and rack the damage up quickly.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Not sure..Hold up what does this mean?

-Down B can be released during the reflect lag to go into the end animation afterwards, preventing rapid hitting projectiles like Fox's standing laser that can re-hit before the reflect lag ends from being able to trap him in it

Fox vs Fox can no longer go to time by blaster spamming his reflector and keeping him in the "reflection" animation.

 

[Viceversa96]

That's a good thing, not a nerf.

Eh, for Fox, It doesn't seem like much of a nerf considering he can spam lasers and rack the damage up quickly.

So why give him a nerf and then a buff? Argggghhh! I'm so confused

 

[Kink-Link5]

It isn't a nerf or a buff. The only thing it affects is the Fox Ditto.

Otherwise he can still jump out of the move after reflecting any other projectile on the same frame as before (Reflection animation sped up, jump cancel window after reflection moved to compensate)


Oops that's Ness.

Still the only thing it affects is the Fox Ditto.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

So why give him a nerf and then a buff? Argggghhh! I'm so confused

It's not so much a buff as it is a correction for all reflect/absorb moves. Fox received such a minor nerf that it won't probably effect his positioning much if at all.

 

[Alex Night]

The big thing that I want to know is why Fox and Falco deserve to stay exactly like they were when characters like Sheik and Meta Knight do not?

Meta Knight has an obvious reason why he shouldn't be exactly as he was in Brawl. Shiek is another subject though. If she is getting changed, then it would be nice for her to get a new trick or two to compensate. I'm not a Shiek expert, so please don't mind me on this.

I have played Melee since 2001. I know the difference. 1 frame invincibility if timed right can go through almost every Up b but it takes precision. I hate it how people think Fox is unbeatable. He is nowhere near as broken as MK in Brawl.

Again, Fox is fine. He still can edgeguard well with his Shine and other moves. Not to mention that you can still pressure with Wave Shining around the opponent. Fox doesn't need an unbeatable move on frame 1.

 

[Shadic]

Meta Knight has an obvious reason why he shouldn't be exactly as he was in Brawl. Shiek is another subject though. If she is getting changed, then it would be nice for her to get a new trick or two to compensate. I'm not a Shiek expert, so please don't mind me on this.

She has a SideB now.

And Sheik actually has a handful of minor buffs elsewhere anyways. But to ignore the fact that Zelda is playable is pretty shortsighted.

Meh I'll leave it at that but I'm not downloading 2.6b. Nope

2.6b is literally just bugfixes on top of 2.6. The shine invincibility was already removed in 2.6, so I'm not sure what your issue with 2.6b is.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Meta Knight has an obvious reason why he shouldn't be exactly as he was in Brawl. Shiek is another subject though. If she is getting changed, then it would be nice for her to get a new trick or two to compensate. I'm not a Shiek expert, so please don't mind me on this.

Technically she did get a backthrow upgrade to make up for her down throw nerf.

 

[Viceversa96]

Meh I'll leave it at that but I'm not downloading 2.6b. Nope

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Meh I'll leave it at that but I'm not downloading 2.6b. Nope

Did you download 2.6? Are you aware that the shine change was from that and that 2.6b is mostly to fix glitches? That's my understanding anyways.

 

[Alex Night]

She has a SideB now.

And Sheik actually has a handful of minor buffs elsewhere anyways. But to ignore the fact that Zelda is playable is pretty shortsighted.


2.6b is literally just bugfixes on top of 2.6. The shine invincibility was already removed in 2.6, so I'm not sure what your issue with 2.6b is.

A good number of people forget that Zelda is relevant even though she is quite good at setting in narrow avenues of approach with her Din's Fire in Project M.

 

[Viceversa96]

I still have 2.5. I have backups of every demo. They nerfed Mario's dair also

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I still have 2.5

So this means that you'll never upgrade your game again if Fox and Falco do not have their invincibility back. That's a very close-minded way to play this game.

 

[Kink-Link5]

She has a SideB now.

And Sheik actually has a handful of minor buffs elsewhere anyways. But to ignore the fact that Zelda is playable is pretty shortsighted.


2.6b is literally just bugfixes on top of 2.6. The shine invincibility was already removed in 2.6, so I'm not sure what your issue with 2.6b is.

D***in around d*** d*** d***in around.

 

[Viceversa96]

So this means that you'll never upgrade your game again if Fox and Falco do not have their invincibility back. That's a very close-minded way to play this game.

I have both 2.6 and 5 so when I play Fox I'll switch to .5. Y'know how he was in Melee! In fact I still have 2.0 and 2.1

 

[Paradoxium]

I still have 2.5. I have backups of every demo. They nerfed Mario's dair also

It's scum bags like you who don't deserve to play project m. I may hate a change and completely disagree with it, but I'm still gonna download the update. I'm still gonna support pm until the very end. These demos can be referred to as open beta tests and in a way we are the beta testers. The only reason they nerfed shine was because they watched and studied us playing with it, and they felt it was unnecessary and removed it. Big deal. It's called balancing. During the Sc2 beta everyone would complain every time a unit was buffed or nerfed, but when the game was released it was BALANCED. That's how you balance a game my friend, buffs and nerfs. Plus I frame less of invincibility doesn't do jack **** to fox's shine game, he still ****s everyone up with it.

Sneaky ******* changed your message before I finished typing this!

 

[9bit]

This is the worst thread.

 

[Viceversa96]

Yes it is LD50. I just can't win. Ever

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I have both 2.6 and 5 so when I play Fox I'll switch to .5. Y'know how he was in Melee! In fact I still have 2.0 and 2.1

But you'll never grow as a Fox player with any of the newer or updated characters that way. There's nothing wrong with keeping and playing the older versions, but there is a certain something to refusing to accept change.

Mario has been changed, but I still like him, probably more now than before.
Sonic was changed, but I still will work with him to try and make him work for me.
Ike was changed, and he seems far less brainless as a result
Lucario became a character instead of a flowchart.

I only occasionally play as Fox so I'm not really that devoted to him as a character. This is primarily because high tier characters become over-played and just watching them or even playing them becomes stale. I couldn't really care about the end result of Melee at Evo because it just turned into another Fox BSfest to me.

In the end, it's up to you, though you've got to live in the now and move towards the future. If you live in the past, you'll never grow.

 

[AncientPancakes]

The invincibility nerf isn't that big of a deal. If Sonic mains can put up with the nerfs that Sonic got in 2.6, i'm sure you can get used to this change.

 

[Vashimus]

This is the worst thread.

Nah, the Fox/Falco hate thread was easily the worst one, since it went on for way too long and Shadic closed it like twice since we couldn't behave.

It's hilarious to read through again though.

 

[Viceversa96]

I still love P:M. I think the community is good. But some choices just confuse me. I hate text because you can't tell what people's emotion are. This thread was just a concern for why they are changing certain things not a hate thread.

 

[9bit]

Nah, the Fox/Falco hate thread was easily the worst one, since it went on for way too long and Shadic closed it like twice since we couldn't behave.

It's hilarious to read through again though.

Dear god I had forgotten that thread. Or maybe I blocked it out. Yikes.

Anyway, this change is small and deserved. The goddamn move is still the best in the game. It's just not as omfg stupid good anymore.

 

[Minor Pandemic]

Yes it is LD50. I just can't win. Ever

I come from a videogame background in MMOs and FPSs, and I've seen both sides of balance responses.

MMO players are so used to seeing things buffed and nerfed that while they dislike changes that hurt their characters and will complain about them, they are the first to "get over it", as in the first players to adapt and move on. They know that when their thing is broken, its going to get fixed and they need to move past it to succeed.

FPS players (specifically CS players) despise even the slightest change to anything at all. The slightest change to pistol damage or AK reload time, or the movement of a window two inches to the left (all of which have an admittedly large impact on high level gameplay) is reacted to with heavy backlash, and that backlash has gone so far as to fracture the CS community between the three games.

I have a point here. My point is that you can chose which of those players to be, and when you are playing a Demo, it's greatly to your advantage to be like the MMO player. When your character gets changed, think about it not as "Did my character deserve this change? It's negative and i don't want nerfs to my character" but instead as "Did the play style of my character get changed?" If it didn't, then it's a simple matter of adapting to the change (and in theory, you're playing your character because you like how he plays and NOT because he's good) and if your playstyle HAS changed (as in, Sonic 2.5 -> 2.6) then you have a right to question the validity of the decision and reevaluate your decision to play that character or that game.

I'm going to take the liberty of assuming you like Fox for his playstyle and not because he's good. That being the case, you should be glad that he plays exactly the same in 2.6 as in 2.5, and instead you can use your time to pitty Oracle who lost his ROB playstyle or Kink who is still mourning the change to 2.1 Zard Nair.

 

[Viceversa96]

I come from a videogame background in MMOs and FPSs, and I've seen both sides of balance responses.

MMO players are so used to seeing things buffed and nerfed that while they dislike changes that hurt their characters and will complain about them, they are the first to "get over it", as in the first players to adapt and move on. They know that when their thing is broken, its going to get fixed and they need to move past it to succeed.

FPS players (specifically CS players) despise even the slightest change to anything at all. The slightest change to pistol damage or AK reload time, or the movement of a window two inches to the left (all of which have an admittedly large impact on high level gameplay) is reacted to with heavy backlash, and that backlash has gone so far as to fracture the CS community between the three games.

I have a point here. My point is that you can chose which of those players to be, and when you are playing a Demo, it's greatly to your advantage to be like the MMO player. When your character gets changed, think about it not as "Did my character deserve this change? It's negative and i don't want nerfs to my character" but instead as "Did the play style of my character get changed?" If it didn't, then it's a simple matter of adapting to the change (and in theory, you're playing your character because you like how he plays and NOT because he's good) and if your playstyle HAS changed (as in, Sonic 2.5 -> 2.6) then you have a right to question the validity of the decision and reevaluate your decision to play that character or that game.

I'm going to take the liberty of assuming you like Fox for his playstyle and not because he's good. That being the case, you should be glad that he plays exactly the same in 2.6 as in 2.5, and instead you can use your time to pitty Oracle who lost his ROB playstyle or Kink who is still mourning the change to 2.1 Zard Nair.

Lol the transition from Halo 3 to Reach killed me so I understand your point :D

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

It's scum bags like you who don't deserve to play project m. I may hate a change and completely disagree with it, but I'm still gonna download the update. I'm still gonna support pm until the very end. These demos can be referred to as open beta tests and in a way we are the beta testers. The only reason they nerfed shine was because they watched and studied us playing with it, and they felt it was unnecessary and removed it. Big deal. It's called balancing. During the Sc2 beta everyone would complain every time a unit was buffed or nerfed, but when the game was released it was BALANCED. That's how you balance a game my friend, buffs and nerfs. Plus I frame less of invincibility doesn't do jack **** to fox's shine game, he still ****s everyone up with it.

Sneaky ******* changed your message before I finished typing this!

Calm your tlts dude. Why do you care so much about what other people are playing? I wanna host a Project M Demo 1 tournament just for you.

I only occasionally play as Fox so I'm not really that devoted to him as a character. This is primarily because high tier characters become over-played and just watching them or even playing them becomes stale. I couldn't really care about the end result of Melee at Evo because it just turned into another Fox BSfest to me.

Why would you watch nobody but Mango/Grand Finals when there's 8 different character mains in top 8, and then complain when Fox wins his first national in Melee history?

 

[Viceversa96]

I'm calling it a night. I do appreciate feedback even if it's negative (Even though I don't think this community has that many).

 

[leelue]

You're whiffing the shine if they are not even getting hit at all. The same would have happened with invincibility, as it only hit and was invincible on frame 1. The only times having/not having it is coming up in gameplay would be when you trade hits pretty much, in which case you're still getting the hit on them. In just about any other situation though it would not have been relevant.

I have played Melee since 2001. I know the difference. 1 frame invincibility if timed right can go through almost every Up b but it takes precision. I hate it how people think Fox is unbeatable. He is nowhere near as broken as MK in Brawl.

Like magus said, if you aren't hitting them now you wouldn't have hit them before. The difference would be between hitting them and trading with them, as opposed to just flat out missing.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Why would you watch nobody but Mango/Grand Finals when there's 8 different character mains in top 8, and then complain when Fox wins his first national in Melee history?

I watched more than that, but with so much I had heard about that final match, I was kind of expecting a different result instead of Fox basically running all over the Ice Climbers. Overall, Melee Evo was good, I was probably just expecting something different from the finale.

 

[Vashimus]

Dear god I had forgotten that thread. Or maybe I blocked it out. Yikes.

Eli raged so damn hard. XD

At least Kinky got half of what he wanted for spacie nerfs.

 

[Paradoxium]

Calm your tlts dude. Why do you care so much about what other people are playing? I wanna host a Project M Demo 1 tournament just for you.

Sorry I get carried in nearly everything I do

 

[trash?]

Nah, the Fox/Falco hate thread was easily the worst one, since it went on for way too long and Shadic closed it like twice since we couldn't behave.

It's hilarious to read through again though.

ohhhhh god I completely forgot about this topic.

quick reminder: "high skill floor" is not a drawback. you sincerely do not understand what drawbacks mean, because then you're implying balance only matters when you're mediocre, as opposed to high-level, where spacies should always be perfect special snowflakes who can't be changed ever or otherwise you'll cry for a really long time